Talk:Park Ji-sung

Neutrality

Is this really a neutral article? Because all this about 'amazing vision', 'highly efficient attacker', 'compared to Pele, Zidane and Maradona', 'wizard with the ball at his feet' and 'can distribute the ball with pinpoint accuracy' etc. etc. He is a good player but those descriptions of him would be more suitable for Ronaldo. Yes, he has amazing stamina but his end product is poor. If those descriptions of him were true, surely he'd be a first team regular-which he is clearly not. He's had 2 years to demonstrate these skills and he hasn't exactly shined. He's had his good matches but often is uninspiring. I'm a Man Utd fan-as is clear from my name-and even I know that these phrases cannot be associated with Park. I've been watching him for 2 years now with close interest as an Asian and I do not agree with the tone of this article. Good player? Yes. Brilliant wizard? No. Life is great...if you support Manchester United 19:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree. I've erased phrases from the introduction which tend to be favoritism. from now on we need a new neutral introduction with formal tone. --60.48.33.188 05:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I mean, he's a defensive midfielder and doesn't score that many goals. Plus, even his father admitted that he is usually not the starting lineup in the beginning of the season. He is a good player, but I guess not an attacker nor "a wizard..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhlee97 (talk • contribs) 16:16, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry would have to add to that. "Man of the match in the 2008 semi-final when he frustrated Messi".

Have a look at his actual ratings on the guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/apr/24/barcelona.manchesterunited1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.30.124.15 (talk) 12:07, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

edited

I edited the whole article, so if anyone would like to confirm I don't think there's a need for the 'informal tone' crap anymore.

The bit in the beginning where it says he is the first Asian to ever score in the history of UEFA Champions League is untrue. His teammate, Seol Ki-Hyeon (Forward for Fulham and for the Korean National Team) scored in 2002 with his Belgian Club, Anderlecht.

Since Seol scored in the qualifying rounds of the 2001-02 tournament, should we perhaps change the statement on Park's page to read "the first Asian to score in the competition proper of the UEFA Champions League" to differentiate from the qualifying rounds? – PeeJay 11:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Nickname "Hub Lub"

I'd like to know if there is reputable evidence for this nickname. I wasn't able to find use of this nickname on any forums regarding United or football in general. If the nickname is indeed true, I believe the statement regarding it should be edited as it seems a bit derogatory.

I must agree. I never heard of that nickname either. I have never seen that nickname at least not in Korean newspapers. I'll delete it for now until there is a credible source. Iloveayu 23:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Chart?

I don't really know what to call that chart thingy at the very beginning of the page, but are there any ways to make that smaller? It seems a bit awkward having to scroll down just to see the first word of the article. Iloveayu 23:03, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, I agree. I couldn't work out how to make it smaller, so I've moved it down slightly as a temporary measure. Of course the first thing you should see is the first line of the article. Palefire 05:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Birthdate

Is "February 25" really the lunar date? If so, we should either clarify that to "25th day of the second lunar month" -- or, better, provide the solar date instead. -- Visviva 13:05, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

vandalism

someones been vandalising this article wrting all sorts of nonesense like - known as hub lub in seoul for his incoherent speech, was booed off the pitch at man U, was bought for solely marketing reason since Glazers were broke, south koreans are the biggest fans of EPL (this is BS, koreans are not into prem-football like japs and chinese - i know likes of inamoto, li tie were marketing buys) etc. i'm guessing the culprit is chinese haha 139.80.123.40 15:19, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm (merely) guessing Chinese, too mirageinred 03:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

some wanker wrote about Park's nickname being "No Penis Park" and some gay remarks, so I removed them...his IP is 144.173.6.67...can some ban him? Zadooplum 22:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, Wikipedia does not ban people for vandalism straight away unless it is severe and highly disruptive - but I have left a message on his talk page. x42bn6 Talk 20:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Can we get a picture of Park Ji-Sung on the page? That'd make it look a whole lot better. It would greatly improve the overall look of the page. I'm not entirely sure how to put pages on Wikipedia and still follow copyright laws, but maybe you guys could do it for me. Wikiisawesome 11:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I like the picture! Wikiisawesome 11:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

League goals 2005-2006

He only scored 1 league goal in the 2005-2006 season against Arsenal in the 2-0 win.

Runner up

You haven't won anything until you've won it. Runner up is not a cup or trophy so i've removed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.121.241.210 (talk) 12:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Being a practising Buddhist

I don't see why this is important enough to be in the introductory paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmlee369 (talk • contribs) 20:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

career stats

added some stats for the 07/08 season couldnt find any info on asists but i'll have another look when the seasons over and finish it off.--Numberwang (talk) 00:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Birth place

He was born in Goheung County, Jeollanam-do NOT Seoul!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.94.95 (talk) 22:26, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Can you prove that without pointing to Wikipedia? I've found a few sites that say he was born in Seoul but grew up in Suwon. – PeeJay 22:42, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Just to settle this, I have several print sources that all say Park was born in Seoul:

• Ponting, Ivan (2008) [1989]. Manchester United: Player by Player (8th edition ed.). Studley: Know The Score Books. ISBN 978-1-84818-300-1. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help)
• Hayes, Dean (2009). Manchester United: The Football Facts. London: John Blake Publishing. ISBN 978-1-84454-795-1.
• Hugman, Barry J. (2009). The PFA Footballers' Who's Who 2009-10. Edinburgh: Mainstream Publishing. ISBN 978-1-84596-474-0.
• Rollin, Glenda; Rollin, Jack, eds. (2009). Sky Sports Football Yearbook 2009-2010. Headline. ISBN 978-0-7553-1948-0.
• The Official Manchester United Yearbook 2009http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Park_Ji-Sung&action=edit&section=11

Previous editions of the PFA Footballers' Who's Who, the Sky Sports Football Yearbook and the Official Manchester United Yearbook also agree on this matter. I have not seen a single reliable source that suggests that Park was born in Goheung. – PeeJay 12:06, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Just for your own information I wouldn't trust any of those books, besides what are the references that they use for their sources? This Korean news report clearly states he was not born in Seoul. The translation of Korean Times article on World Cup players profiles.

The text in full says: 박지성(29.맨체스터 유나이티드)

1981년 2월25일 전남 고흥 출생/ 수원공고- 명지대/ 178㎝ 73㎏/ A매치 88경기 12골/ A매치 데뷔: 2000년 4월 라오스전/클럽팀 통산: 239경기 37골(교토 퍼플상가-PSV에인트호벤-맨체스터 유나이티드)/ 월드컵 출전 경력:(2회) 2002년 한일 월드컵, 2006년 독일 월드컵/ 특기사항: 2000ㆍ2004년 아시안컵 대표, 2000년 시드니올림픽 대표, 2002년 한일 월드컵 포르투갈전 결승골, 2005년 잉글랜드 프리미어리그 첫 진출

Park Ji-sung (29. Manchester United)

February 25th, 1981, birth: Chonnam Goheung / Suwon High School - Myongji University/ 178 ㎝ 73 ㎏ / A Match 88 Match 12 Goals / A Match Debut: April 2000 raohseujeon / clubs Career: 239 games 37 goals ( Kyoto Purple Sanga-PSV Eindhoven - Manchester United FC) / World Cup experience: (2) the 2002 World Cup, 2006 World Cup / Special Note: 2000 and 2004 President Cup, 2000 Sydney Olympic, World Cup 2002 goal, first entered the English Premier League 2005

It is a well-known fact to most Koreans, including myself, that Park was born in Goheung and there is no room for argument. There is an unlimited set of sources which verifies that Park was born in Goheung, not Seoul. His parents still live in Goheung as well.

• This link in Korean informs us that Park won an award in 2011 by Jeollanam-do council for his contributions on the region and was selected as one of the 15 people who people from Jeollanam-do feel proud of — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.129.95.231 (talk) 16:09, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

better picture?

Can we get a better picture of Park? prefferably with a united shirt, not some generic red shirt I see pictures of Carrick and few other players with the latest uniforms on their pages... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.230.96.186 (talk) 00:34, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

If you have a free image of Park, feel free to upload it and the community will decide whether it is better than the one we already have. As it stands, the current image is fine, IMO. Furthermore, it's not just "some generic red shirt", it's the shirt that United wore in the Munich 50th anniversary match against Man Citeh on 10 Feb 08. – PeeJay 02:32, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Park's playing position (esp. in Korea national team)

Park plays mostly as a left/right winger for Manchester United. But he can play anywhere as an attacking midfielder or wing-forward. Since this article is not only about Park Ji-Sung of MU, he doesn't need to be described just as a winger. For those who probably have watched him playing for MU only, I'll quote from some recent news articles on South Korean national team with my translation.

• .. 각각 왼쪽 수비수(이영표), 오른쪽 윙포워드(설기현), 중앙 공격형 미드필더(박지성)로 선발 출전한 세 선수는 ..

.. three players who each started as left fullback(Lee Young-Pyo), right wing-forward(Seol Ki-Hyeon), central attacking midfielder(Park Ji-Sung) .. 2008-02-26 vs Turkmenistan

• .. 이번에는 박지성이 공격형 미드필더를 맡았다. 원톱 박주영의 뒤에서 공격의 실마리를 풀어나가는 역할이었다. ..

.. this time Park Ji-Sung took a play-making role as an attacking midfielder just behind the lone striker Park Chu-Young. .. 2008-06-08 vs Jordan

• .. 대표팀 운영의 핵심은 박지성 시프트다. 그를 어떤 위치에 놓고 어떻게 활용하느냐에 따라 대표팀의 전체적인 밑그림이 달라진다. 좌우 측면 미드필더는 물론이고 처진 스트라이커와 중앙 공격형 미드필더 등 박지성이 대표팀에서 소화할 수 있는 자리는 많다. ..

.. A key issue of the national team is 'Park Ji-Sung shift'. Where he plays affects the team's overall performances. Not only as left and right midfielder but also as second striker or central attacking midfielder, Park can play in various positions. .. 2008-10-11 vs Uzbekistan

In the very recent matches where South Korea played 4-4-2, Park mostly played as a left winger. But he has always been virtually on free-role and usually roamed around the pitch ignoring fixed position - particularly a lot more often than in Man United. --Geropod (talk) 11:10, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Park Ji-Sung/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sarastro1 (talk) 10:38, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this article has several issues at the moment, all of which would prevent it from becoming a GA. I am prepared to place it on hold for one week for some improvements, but I will not carry out a full review until these issues have been sorted. I notice that the nominator is not a contributor to the article, which may mean that changes cannot be made in time. If you do not think changes can be made in time, I will have to fail it.

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

The main issue is with sourcing. Large parts of the article are not sourced despite claims which could be challenged. Just to give a few examples, "Although he was born in the South Korean capital, Seoul, Park grew up in Suwon, a satellite city 30 kilometres (19 mi) south of Seoul"; "by the end of 2003–04 season, Park had begun to adapt to the Netherlands, both on and off the field"; "On 1 March 2008, Park scored his first Premiership goal of the 2007–08 season after returning from his long-term injury against Fulham." Also, whole paragraphs (e.g. Early career, International career) are uncited.

There are parts which I do not consider to be neutral; e.g. "Park is able to play anywhere across the midfield and is noted for his exceptional fitness level, discipline, work ethic and movement."; "the highlight of Park's PSV career came when he scored the first goal against Italian team A.C. Milan at the Champions League semi-finals"; "Park scored a crucial winner in the derby against Liverpool"; "Park scored a memorable goal during the 2002 World Cup".

I am also concerned by the stability of the article; there seems to be a lot of vandalism and arguably an edit war. For example here. I would need reassurance on this point.

If required, I can give more specific instances of these problems, but there are so many, I cannot realistically list all of them. The article needs a thorough copy-edit before it receives a full review. I have not considered other areas such as prose or sourcing yet until these major issues are resolved.

• Following discussion with the nominator, I am failing this article as the issues will not be resolved in time. --Sarastro1 (talk) 18:46, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

appearances for manchester united

on the OFFICIAL Man U website it says 168 appearances. why keep changing back to 113? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.174.12.144 (talk) 08:29, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

The infoxbox on the right is for "league games" only!, not including other games like cups, thats why we have "Career statistics" area.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 08:52, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Birthplace AGAIN.....

I am sick and tired of this self-professed expert PeeJay who think because they've got a couple of football books they can decided all the answers. It is quite clear from these Korean news sources that Park was born in Gwangju province. However his birth was announced in Suwon, which is nowhere near Seoul. So even if there is debate over his actual birthplace, Seoul is clearly not one of them.

As noted before, this shows how Wikipedia's model for using published sources is deeply flawed because it is quite clear that Park was not born in Seoul. It also demonstrates you cannot believe what you read because these English publications must be plagiarising each other's material without checks. Proving in this case how the error is repeated again and again.

To support my point here are the translations from the three of the major news sources in South Korea: Yonhap [1], Korean Herald [2], Hankyung [3]. How can all these national media groups all be wrong? To be wrong, under the Wikipedia model, they would have to be questionable sources? That's like saying in a UK context (from the Korean examples)the Press Association, Times, and Financial Times are questionable too! If that is the case, and there are questions raised over what Park's own national news organisations are saying against the power of what a few British football books claim, then at best it smacks of national pride and at worst a rather poor attitude towards the opinions of foreigners (best leave it at that, shall we?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.156.30.138 (talk) 19:21, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

OK, sure, you've got several sources that give a different birth place to the one listed in the sources I've seen. But if Park wasn't born in Seoul, why is it that so many reliable sources have got it wrong? Manchester United's own official website lists Park's birthplace as Seoul, but surely you'd think the club would have asked him where he was born before sticking down any old random Korean city they thought of off the top of their heads? Furthermore, the Professional Footballers Association also has similar info, both on their website and in books published under their auspices (i.e. the various editions of the PFA Footballers' Who's Who). If someone has access to PSV Eindhoven's archives, maybe they could tell us where PSV thought Park was born? Again, I'm sure you didn't pull this idea out of thin air that Park was born in Gwangju, but if I've got similar numbers of sources telling me two different things, which set do you think I'm going to believe? – PeeJay 00:26, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

That's white thinking at its finest. (don't trust johnny foreigner)

"...if I've got similar numbers of sources telling me two different things, which set do you think I'm going to believe?"

You do what any *proper* researcher would do and go and find more sources for verification. In this case, the only trusted references are in Korean!!! You are in effect arguing against the sources of South Korea's top news organisations, that incredibly, they are fraudulently claiming that their own national team captain was born in Gwangju before moving to Suwon. Instead you're persistently relying on what is written in the Western media, a self-referencing system of they printed it, so I'll print it too. Personally, I think the reason Seoul is used is because Koreans are well aware of the the ignorant western attitude to all things Asian. Er, they think we all look the same, we eat nothing but dogs and live in one big fucking place called Seoul. The End.

However for an encyclopedia that is clearly not the case, and besides, is your average football supporters trudging through a drizzly Northern town's industrial park in December going to care about whether Park was born in a backwoods province 300 miles from Seoul. If the authors of this Seoul theory knew anything about Asian culture they'd also know that there is prestige to being associated with a country's major cities e.g. China - Beijing/Shanghai, Japan - Tokyo/Osaka (Kansai) and S.Korea Seoul/Busan. So being known to have come from Seoul does Park no harm. Unlike many in UK, who would be rather annoyed if for international purposes they were always introduced as a Londoner.

I have no reason to doubt the Korean sources as they come from Yonhap, the Korean Herald and the Korean Financial Times. They clearly show that Park was not born in Seoul: they make no mention of the city; they say he was born in Gwnagju: he was registered in Suwon. The longer Seoul remains in the infobox, the longer this website looks culturally ignorant and borderline racist. Unless of course some one can find a Korean source that shows the South Korea's three main news agencies have also got it completely wrong!

I've updated this as the comments by 109.156.30.138 are right. I've spoken to Park Ji-Sung plenty of times being a season ticket holder and a member of the Supporters Trust and he was born in Gwangju Province. He said that a report was incorrectly written when he signed for Manchester United stating he was born in Seoul when he wasn't. If I speak to Park again I'll record it on camera for an official source. 87.115.105.175 (talk) 21:45, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

If you could get them to update the official website, that'd be even better. Unfortunately we can't just take your word for it. – PeeJay 22:49, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Neither can we take yours 'I am sick and tired of this self-professed expert PeeJay who think because they've got a couple of football books they can decided all the answers. ' this guy is exactly right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.185.151.205 (talk) 11:03, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

You can bitch about it all you like, but Wikipedia policy is verifiability, not truth and far more reliable sources give his birthplace as Seoul. I realise this may be wrong, but until a RELIABLE source says this is wrong, we can't change it. – PeeJay 16:56, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 7 July 2012

I would like to change Park's current club, after his (unfortunate) transfer to Queens Park Rangers , or at least mention that the terms have been agreed upon and he still needs to complete a medical and paperwork. Thank you!

Allenico (talk) 17:28, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Not done:. It's unclear to me what needs to be done here, but the semi-protection expired so you can make the edit yourself now. RudolfRed (talk) 02:35, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

References

Edit request on 8 July 2012

Tim Cahill has also scored three goals for Australia in the world cup finals who are in the Asian confederacy - should he be also listed as a joint Asain top scorer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.149.192.132 (talk • contribs) 09:59, July 9, 2012

Is not correct information

This article said that 'On 23 February 2012, Park captained Manchester United for the first time from the beginning of a match in a 2–1 home defeat to Ajax in the Europa League'. I think that 'first time' because I think that he was wear an armband when gigs are change of other players at 10, 2005 match in champions league group preliminaries with losc. So that 'first time' is not completely correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HaeYoon (talk • contribs) 04:05, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Park Ji-sung/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I agree with all the above. I think all the information is pretty well sourced, but definitely wrong nicknames must be erased. Also, that stuff about him being a marketing move is not true at all. He was crucial in PSV's run to the finals, everyone knows that. Plus, Fergie loves the guy and has said that time and time again.

Last edited at 02:40, 5 April 2014 (UTC). Substituted at 02:18, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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Uncertain Source

In this article, Park had KNVB Cup MVP, Eredivisie Best XI and FIFA.com Best Asian Player in Europe by individual honours. But their link is uncertain. I think the three honours need official sources. Thank you. --Pinineeon (talk) 00:33, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

References

Birth date

User:Roiejwfwertwe is claiming that Park was actually born on 30 March 1981, rather than 25 February 1981. However, the latter date is sourced to Barry Hugman's website and corroborated by Soccerbase and the Premier League. The user claims that the discrepancy arises from Korea's use of the lunisolar calendar and cites this website, which I am unable to read as it's in Korean. If anyone can help with this, it would be appreciated. – PeeJay 14:19, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Foreigners do not know this fact, so there is no English site. naver is Korea's typically portal site. When you search in Naver, it looks like this. [4]. you will see "음력 1981년 2월 25일". "음력" is Lunisolar calendar. 알겠냐? -Roiejwfwertwe (talk) 14:37, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

I would like to think that the Premier League would have checked with Park Ji-sung before reporting an incorrect birth date, but okay. You still need to fix the infobox references. – PeeJay 15:50, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

I've reverted back to how it was, I don't see why we should use the lunisolar calendar ahead of the Gregorian calendar. Mattythewhite (talk) 22:28, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Per MOS:JG, dates can be given in any calendar but only if they are also given in the Gregorian calendar (or the Julian calendar for events happening before October 1582). Changing from Gregorian to lunisolar without keeping the Gregorian date is against the manual of style, but it would be fine to add the lunisolar date with an explanation of which calendar it uses. --bonadea contributions talk 09:14, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

In Korea, there are many cases where the lunar birthday falls on the same day as the Gregorian calendar. Furthermore, there is the concept of the '빠른년생(Fast Year)' in South Korea, where some people celebrate birthdays faster than they actually do. Roiejwfwertwe (talk) 09:21, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

My suggestion is that you add the lunisolar birthdate with a Wikilink to Korean calendar and a source, but that has to be in addition to the existing Gregorian date - please don't remove that. --bonadea contributions talk 11:31, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm confused. Are we saying 25 February is the lunisolar date or the Gregorian date? – PeeJay 12:40, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

No, it seems 25 February 1981 is the Lunisolar birth date. But the Gregorian birth date is 30 March 1981. Here you can convert the dates: http://manse.ndsl.kr/english/index.html Another famous footballer from South Korea whose date of birth is based on the Lunisolar calendar is Cho Kwang-rae. --VAN ZANT (talk) 20:41, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Misquote/mistake

The following passage appears to be in error:

Ferguson, in the Amazon-produced documentary Sir Alex Ferguson: Never Give In (2021), stated that not bringing Park into the squad at the 2011 Champions League final half-time was "a mistake" and that, had he put Park in, specifically to man mark Messi, he believed they would have won that game.

Park played the full 90 mins of the 2011 final, and so could not have been substituted on, as he was already on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.31.1.6 (talk) 15:14, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Question

@PeeJay: Hey, why you removed that information? Are you sure it is too trivial to be mentioned any where in the artile or the sourcce is not suitable in yuour opinion? What is nt ok for you, and how we can do compromise? Cheers Dawid2009 (talk) 22:02, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

He played at AO LYGIA

That 2A02:587:421D:2900:7096:32D9:1900:6B1F (talk) 21:16, 8 July 2023 (UTC)