Talk:Rabbeinu Tam

Tefillin

Who can truly know what proportion of Jews wear two sets of tefillin? The custom varies. What is indisputable is that sadly "most" Jews wear NO tefillin at all. It is undeniably correct to say that "many" follow this custom.

Does anyone know a birth date for Rabbeinu Tam?

Title POV

The title isn't neutral - not only is it not even the guy's actual name, but it is made up entirely of honourifics. This violates the general Neutrality rule that wikipedia does not use honourifics (eg. Christ, PBUH, Rev., etc.). Rabbi/variants shouldn't be used any more than Rev., and Tam is even worse, its like having Muhammed PBUH.

See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (clergy). Newman Luke (talk) 16:20, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

A case can be made that this is how he is universally known. I am not exaggerating when I say he is quoted hundreds of thousands of times in responsa and commentary, thousands upon thousands of times by people within a century, and exponentially greater once we look at the past 900 years. This is a case similar to Mother Teresa, which is not titled "Agnesë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu" and Pope John Paul II which is not titled "Karol Józef Wojtyła". -- Avi (talk) 06:23, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Interestingly, The New Jewish Encyclopedia lists him under Jacob ben Meir Tam. By the way, the current article doesn't explain what "Rabbenu" means; presumably some version of rabbi, but what in particular? --macrakis (talk) 16:58, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Avi's makes sense - everyone calls him Rabbenu Tam. I would also add that it is more correct to transliterate רַבֵּנוּ as "Rabbenu", without the 'i'. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 17:42, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Among the following Google Book hits the WP:IRS are very heavily weighted to the academic name:

• Jacob ben Meir 5,180 GB hits
• Rabbeinu Tam 895 GB hits

In ictu oculi (talk) 08:38, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Keep as common name. It is per definition not POV if it is common. Google hits are explained as per Dweller on WT:JUDAISM because of the commonness of the names Jacob and Meir and the spelling variations of rabbeinu. Debresser (talk) 20:13, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

• Keep per Debresser. This title is no less valid than the Rashi article name, or like the name Rishonim and Acharonim. It's not "POV" it's what they're called in the only scholarship that studies them not as a "fossils" but as "living" commentators on the Torah by Torah Jews in Torah scholarship which WP is obliged to deal with as encyclopedic topics, even though it may strike the uninitiated as "odd" -- but no less "odd" than any technical terms used in a specific specialized field. The original proposal was made by Newman Luke who himself had his own agenda, see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Newman Luke, and now it seems that In ictu is following in those footsteps. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 21:05, 7
• Keep as common name. Ghits are tainted by the numbers of Jacobs and Meirs and the variant spellings of "Rabbenu"/"Rabbeinu"/"Rabbeynu". POV issues are dealt with splendidly on a wide variety of other Wikipedia pages, notably the [at least] nine failed attempts to move Alexander the Great to a "less POV" name. People who visit Wikipedia looking for Rabbeinu Tam are not only more likely to look under this name, they're probably not even aware of his birth name as it's not common currency. --Dweller (talk) 10:01, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi Doug, Google Books results above were done on the string "Jacob-ben-Meir" therefore are not tainted by random "Jacobs" and "Meir"s:

GS "Jacob-ben-Meir" 235

GB "Jacob-ben-Meir" 34,400

In ictu oculi (talk) 11:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

• Keep Per IZAK and Debresser. Magister Scienta^talk (Editor Review) 22:13, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Re the comment in the section below and on my talkpage, I don't have the time to get truly forensic on this, but Ghit counting on such a common pair of names is flawed. When I took in ictu's formula for the Googlebooks search, and removed instances that mention the following words connected with Rabbenu Tam (and misspellings) (-tam -tarn -ramerupt -tani -rashi) I found that 11,000 of those 34,000 hits are dubious. On the first page are several hits that aren't to Rabbenu Tam, including a Spanish Jacob ben Meir and a British one. The bottom hit on the first page also shows a problem: it hits a "Jehuda Jacob ben Meir". Furthermore, as well as Ghitting for variant spellings of "Rabbenu", if you want a proper comparison, it seems that some sources render "Tam" as "Tarn" and some as "Tarni". --Dweller (talk) 10:01, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

New Jewish Encyclopedia, 1976

There isn't an RM yet. And if there is POV shouldn't be an issue, instead WP:COMMONNAME should be the issue. If the personal accusation made by IZAK against the poster back in Oct 2009 is correct, or not, then IZAK needs to say that to the 2009 user on the 2009 user's home page. Note also that the incorrect information that The New Jewish Encyclopedia has the colloquial name isn't correct:

JACOB BEN MEIR TAM (1100-1171) Grandson of Rashi, leading Talmudic authority of France, popularly known as "Rabbenu Tam." He taught Talmud at Ramerupt, but after attack by the Crusaders, he settled in Troyes, where he headed several ...David Bridger, Samuel Wolk - 1976 Page 233

In ictu oculi (talk) 11:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Erm, I don't think you've read the comment about the NJE very carefully, but the quote you provide makes the COMMONNAME point beautifully. --Dweller (talk) 11:58, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi Dweller. No, I misread it in the jumble. How did you arrive at the Google Books result that shows more results for Rabbeinu Tam than Jacob ben Meir? In ictu oculi (talk) 15:22, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

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Works - Authorship of the Sefer HaYashar

Newer scientific works have clarified, that the Sefer HaYashar "of" Rabbeinu Tam and the Sefer HaYashar of Zerahiah the Greek is one work and the author is Zerahiah the Greek. I would say the information how stated on the chapter about his works dealing with the authorship of the Sefer HaYashar is incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Informationskampagne (talk • contribs) 19:58, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

I removed the "Dubious" template, because it seemed to relate to something else completely. You can add a paragraph or subsection about the issue, if you want to. Debresser (talk) 21:00, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

References