Talk:Regencies on behalf of Isabella II

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On 5 December 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Minority Government of Isabella II of Spain to Regencies for Isabella II of Spain. The result of the discussion was moved.

Requested move 5 December 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Regencies for Isabella II of Spain. (closed by non-admin page mover) Tol (talk | contribs) @ 18:07, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Minority Government of Isabella II of Spain → Regencies of Isabella II of Spain – I assume the current title means "government while Isabella II was a minor", but minority government in English refers to something unrelated which happens in a parliamentary system. This article is about the two regencies Isabella II reigned under before she officially took power, so I propose "Regencies of" as the title. Pinguinn 🐧 05:46, 5 December 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 21:40, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Oppose. I agree the current title is a failure. But the proposed alternative isn't exactly ideal. The phrase "Regency of X" commonly means X is the regent for someone else (e.g. "Regency of Marie de' Medici", means Marie was regent during minority of Louis XIII, "Regency of Anne of Austria" means Anne was regent during the minority of Louis XIV, etc.). So the proposed "Regencies of Isabella II" would imply periods where Isabella was regent for someone else, clearly not the intention. It should be simply "Minority of Isabella II", or "Minority reign of Isabella II", or "Minority period of Isabella II", or "Minority era of Isabella II", or perhaps a compromise "Regencies for Isabella II". But certainly not "Regencies of Isabella II". Walrasiad (talk) 08:56, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Regencies for Isabella II per Walrasiad's suggestion. Not ideal either, but at least it is straight and unambiguous. No such user (talk) 14:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-move discussion

"Regencies for" seems very awkward. Srnec (talk) 15:40, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Tol, Pinguinn, ModernDayTrilobite, Walrasiad, No such user, and Aciram: I see the move has been reverted. What do you all say to Minority of Isabella II of Spain? —Srnec (talk) 02:33, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I closed and implemented the RM, following the emerging consensus. I don't have much of an opinion on the actual title; sorry. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 06:17, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Feels a bit better, to be honest. Walrasiad (talk) 02:43, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Minority" has almost the same problem as the earlier title "Early life of Isabella II"; this article is about the rule during Isabella's reign when she was a minor, so the title should indicate that this article is about that and not about the early private life of Isabella as a person. "Minority" sounds more like it concerns the person Isabella's private life before she became an adult, but it is suppose to be about her minority government, as the Spanish language version says, I believe. I agree that the previous title "Regencies for" was a bit akward and clumsy, but the current title seem to most accurate one and I can see few objections to it."Regency of Isbaella II" or "Regency Government of Isabella II" would be just as good.--Aciram (talk) 02:47, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To me, "early life" is a period defined in terms of her life, but "minority" is defined in terms of her reign. The problem with the current title is it it's ambiguous. It isn't clear if it is the minority or the government that is Isabella's. Your proposals have the same problem. Descriptive titles have to make sense to people who know nothing about the subject. Srnec (talk) 02:50, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Minority government" certainly will not do, as it has an entirely different meaning in English. But I am not sure why the word "government" is in there in the first place. This page covers more than one government, it covers a multiplicity of governments (plus wars and some more things) during the entire period of her minority. So have the singular "government" in the title is misleading. A more accurate description would be the longer-winded "Spanish governments during the minority of Isabella II", or simply "Spain during the minority of Isabella II", or perhaps "Era of minority of Isabella II". But "Minority of Isabella II" works well enough and is more concise. A compromise might be "Minority reign of Isabella II", but that is not ideal either. Walrasiad (talk) 07:05, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have much experience with RMs, but it seems out of order to singlehandedly revert the results of one. Anyway, "Minority of" still has the same problem that the current article is not really about her personal life, but rather the political situation in Spain during it. However, minority is the correct term to use here since it is the reason why she had regents in the first place. It just needs to be clear that the article is about the government during the minority, for example "Regencies during the minority of Isabella II" or something like that. Pinguinn 🐧 11:25, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that "Regencies for" does not sound very well (and said as much in the RM), but it's still an improvement over the previous title, which is actively misleading.
The general problem with any title containing "minority" is that it will hardly be understood as 'state of being a minor' at first sight. I think that we need a precise (rather than concise) title, and I'm inclined to support Pinguinn's proposal "Regencies during the minority of Isabella II". No such user (talk) 11:44, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
...or "Regencies on behalf of Isabela II". No such user (talk) 12:20, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I support "Regencies during the minority of Isabella II of Spain" as an improvement. Srnec (talk) 17:24, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We don't have a formal RM open so nobody's going to close this, but we seem to have a good candidate. Walrasiad, Aciram, are you OK with this? No such user (talk) 07:54, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not satisfied. I am not really liking the word "government" or "regency" in the title, since that's not really what the article is about. In those cases, I'd expect a bland list of cabinet ministers and government officials, which is not what this is offering. From what I can see, this article is just a narrative about a period of Spanish history. Its accurate description is "Political history of Spain during the minority of Isabella II". But that is far too much of mouthful. Maybe "Spain during the minority of Isabella II"? Or simply return to "Minority reign of Isabella II of Spain"? Maybe looking at other examples of articles of this type, i.e. that cover eras rather than any specific government, might inspire better title ideas. Walrasiad (talk) 12:46, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The title feels a bit clumsy, but that's not a big problem after all. The main concern is that the title of the article should accurately describe the subject of the article as being about the governments/governments/regency governments during the minority of Isabella, and make sure that the reader to not think the article is about the early personal life of the person Isabella. I am oposed to any title such as "Early life of Isabella", "Minority of Isabella", or similar, which could make the reader think the article is about the personal life of Isabella. It should be clear from the title that this article is about the government/governments ruling duing her minority, not her life during her minority as such. That's why I would find titles such as "Minority of Isabella II" objectionable.
I do not understand the objection to the title "Minority Government of Isabella II". It is true that the Minority Government were in fact several. But that is not an objection. We have several articles in Wikipedia of a similar kind. For example, the article of the Ottoman imperial harem refers to all harems during all the Ottoman sultans, not just one particular harem of a particular sultan. In the same way, the title "Minority Government of Isabella II" can refer to all her minority governments during her minority even though the title is written in singular. If that is still such a big problem, then it can be changed to "Minority Governments of Isabella II" or "Regency Governments of Isabella II".
But I am not an English language linguist, so I will not insist on that. The main thing for me is that the article clearly states in the title that the article is about the political rule of the regency governments during the minority of Isabella II, not about the life of Isabella during her minority. An article about Isabella as a child should of course be in her own article, and the other language version articles are about the regency governments during her minority, as should this be, or those language versions must be unlinked. Of course, the article should only contain information that concerns the subject of the regency governments, but that is an issue of the editors who can ad and delete information to suit the subject - an article is never finnished, and always open for editing.
In short; the title Regencies for Isabella II of Spain is clumsy in my eyes, but it at least describes the subject of the article and does not confuse it with the personal life of Isabella as a minor, so I can accept the title. She may have had more regencies during her reign - perhaps someone regned for her when she was abroad as an adult? - but that can be specified in the article text. So the title is good enough because it describes the article subject accurately, even if its not very pretty.--Aciram (talk) 13:21, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A "minority government" is a very common term in English with an entirely different meaning. It means a government who controls less than 50% of seats of a legislature. There's no point trying to argue for that title here. It is entirely unsuitable. Walrasiad (talk) 13:40, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 January 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Regencies of Isabella II of Spain. The primary point made is that the article does not exactly touch on Isabella II's private life as a minor, only on the affairs of Spain during her minority. The consensus did however seem to be that the current wording is awkward. After around two weeks there has been little activity on the discussion, so this should be a good compromise between the existing points of view.--Estar8806 (talk) 19:56, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Regencies for Isabella II of Spain → Minority of Isabella II of Spain – Current wording is awkward. I would also accept "Spain during the minority of Isabella II". Srnec (talk) 03:14, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose That title would make the article sound like it was about the private life of Isabella as a minor. Such information should of course be in her own article. The only purpose of this article is to describe the government which ruled Spain during her minority. That is the content of the article in the other language versions it linkes to as well. If the content does not answer to that, then of course it should be adjusted. But the article must have a title which makes it clear, that the article is about the government during her minority, not about herself and her life when she was a minor. The current title may be akward, but it is at least clear. "Minority" is not clear, it is confusing. I would not protest to "Government during the minority of Isabella II" or "Regencies during the minority of Isabella II of Spain" or even "Regency period of Isabella II" or any sort of title that make it clear that it is not about Isabella's early life as a person. --Aciram (talk) 03:24, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Make that Regencies on behalf of Isabella II of Spain, or Regencies during the minority of Isabella II of Spain if you must. Indeed, I can't find any occurrence of a "regency for Jane Doe" in books, but "regency on behalf of Jane Doe" appears to be a standard construction [1]. No such user (talk) 10:52, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-move discussion

@Estar8806: Your close looks like a super-vote. The new title was expressly rejected in the previous RM. Srnec (talk) 01:03, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Srnec Oh my, you're right! I can't believe I didn't notice that and I even read through that RM. I believe Regencies on behalf of Isabella II would be best? Thank you for pointing out my error! Estar8806 (talk) 01:06, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I boldly moved it to Regencies on behalf of Isabella II of Spain. At least, that is semantically (someone else ruled instead of Isabella) and grammatically (one is a regent on behalf of a minor) correct. No such user (talk) 09:04, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]