Talk:Rosemary Crossley

Merging the articles

Most of the sources on Anne McDonald are about her dealings with Rosemary Ylevental (talk) 19:08, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm Rosemary Crossley.

I strongly disagree with the idea of merging Anne McDonald's page with mine. Just a few differences:

Anne spent 14 years being starved in a state hospital. I didn't.

Anne fought a Habeas Corpus case in the Supreme Court to obtain her freedom at age 18. I didn't. (And the Court found that her lawyers were properly instructed by Anne)

Anne went back to the Court - and testified and passed a message-passing test in the Court - to win her release from Guardianship. I didn't.

Anne grew 45 cm (18 inches) after turning 18 - I didn't, and neither did anyone else on Wikipedia.

Anne's growth after age 18 is of significant medical interest to doctors dealing with long-term malnutrition and probably warrants more lengthy documentation and a search tag.

Anne typed with a headpointer. I didn't.

Anne graduated from Deakin University. I didn't.

Anne went bungy-jumping. I certainly didn't.

Anne was presented with the National Disability Award for Personal Achievement in Parliament House, Canberra. (I wasn't, and was working in China at the time.)

Anne was posthumously recognised for her contribution to AAC by the Australian professional AAC organisation - AGOSCI.

Anne was her own person.

Her battles made a significant contribution to de-institutionalisation in Australia and around the world.

Two weeks after Sixty Minutes screened Australia's then top rating program about Anne in 1982, they put to air a letter saying she should be killed. Obviously the anti-communication lobby wish she had been, and now hope to conceal her existence. Amdc538 (talk) 21:28, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

@Amdc538: It's true that you are obviously not Anne McDonald, and I'm sorry she was starved and experienced delayed growth. However, every reliable source that I read about her claims that she was strongly associated with you and that you directed her. There is no scientific evidence that she made all those achievements herself, so until legitimate evidence appears, it will be reasonably assumed that her facilitator made all those achievements (Wikipedia is based on substantial reliable sources, the closest we can get to 100% truth). I don't think growth after malnutrition is notable, as this happens in many cases. The award is notable, but it still comes from being strongly associated with you and your initiatives.

I would also like a source for the death threat, if possible, to verify this claim. It might still not be notable though for a standalone article. Ylevental (talk) 14:01, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

@Ylevental: Ylevental, I note that you apologised for your obsessive behaviour in relation to facilitation on another Wiki site on July 3, and appear to have cleared your own chat page. Your version of a reliable source seems to be anything that agrees with you, with Court transcipts, medical records, test reports, books, articles, live TV interviews using a head-pointer, all being dismissed out of hand if they don't. An attempt to add more citations to McDonald's page yesterday was rejected on the grounds it was 'self interested'. None of the so-called scientific evidence you refer to has anything to do with McDonald. Your comment that "I don't think growth after malnutrition is notable, as this happens in many cases." is indicative of either ignorance or bias. McDonald grew 45 cms (18 inches) after age 18. That is certainly not common. Indeed at the time no record of anyone else in the world ever doing so could be found..

A sub heading in the article - De-institutionalisation - would perhaps make McDonald's contribution to the closure of St Nicholas and other institutions incarcerating people with disabilities in Australia and round the world clearer.

The 60 Minutes program about Anne was written up in detail in a book about 60 Minutes because it won awards (and McDonald passed yet another message-passing test on camera). The death threat came in follow-up 2 weeks later, and her response went to air much later again. There's a lot of problem with TV records from that time, as anything shot on videotape doesn't survive unless it was digitised later. When the channel was asked for film of McDonald after her death only the main program had been preserved, not the follow-ups. Amdc538 (talk) 03:56, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

@Amdc538: Please do not make personal attacks. That can get your account sanctioned. As for what constitutes a reliable source, see WP:RS. Sources that supports or imply the truth of pseudoscience are not considered reliable on those topics. Don't forget to sign your posts! --Wikiman2718 (talk) 05:00, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

@Amdc538: I did not remove your citations yesterday, Wikiman2718 did. For the case of abnormal growth after 18, I need proof that it was abnormal, such as a news article. Are there any recorded reports of Anne McDonald contributing to the closure of various institutions? What was the name of the 60 Minutes book? Where can I find a copy of the main 60 minutes program? Ylevental (talk) 12:48, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I decided to go ahead and merge. Ylevental (talk) 14:51, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

COI edits

@Amdc538: Since you have a declared conflict of interest and cannot edit the page, please leave all sources you think relevant to the article here. If there are any changes you would like to make to the article, state them here and the community will approve or reject them. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 12:55, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

{{THE ONLY EDIT I WANT IS TO LEAVE WIKIPEDIA ALTOGETHER. I'm being libelled in different ways every day. I haven't got time to play your games, or the money to pay someone to curate the page. You can score it as a victory, if that makes you feel good. 12:43, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

@Amdc538: What sources here specifically do you think are unreliable? The APA, AACAP or ABA? Praxidicae (talk) 12:56, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

@Amdc538: I will try my best but can't guarantee anything. Ylevental (talk) 13:25, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Prod removal

Ylevental I removed the prod, while I respect BLP requests, PROD is only for uncontroversial deletions. By definition a request of this nature is controversial for a variety of reasons. Praxidicae (talk) 13:57, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Editing article

Ylevental, I am attempting to add more sources and content to the article. Once the article has been re-written to provide an objective overview of Crossley's career, the lede can be rewritten to summarise the content of the article. Please do not add statements about facilitated communication being discredited into the lede now - there are sources over many years that document challenges to Crossley's work, and they will be included and can then be summarised. RebeccaGreen (talk) 17:15, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

It is important to emphasize in this article that facilitated communication is discredited. Any overview that fails to emphasize this point is not-neutral. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 17:26, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

It is not necessary to say it in every paragraph. The second paragraph you have added to the lede repeats the first. As I have stated, I am working on adding referenced information. I would then edit the lede to summarise Crossley's career, and controversies - if the article is kept in the AfD. However, there is clearly no point in deleting unnecessary statements from the lede now. RebeccaGreen (talk) 17:47, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

You are right that we don't have to repeat it in every paragraph, but it is important for the reader to understand what facilitated communication is and that is is firmly discredited. After all, the subject of the article is notable only for work related to FC. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 17:52, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

It is incorrect that Rosemary Crossley is notable only for work related to FC. FC is not even mentioned these days on her organisation's website.

I enclose hear the statement relating to her death and will be requesting that factual, neutral updates be made to the page, on this basis:

https://getthewordout.com.au/press-release/press-release-rosemary-crossley-has-died/

It is with great sadness and a heavy heart that the Anne McDonald Centre Committee of Management announce the death yesterday of its Director and co-founder, Rosemary Crossley.

Dr. Rosemary Crossley, AM, PhD, died on 10/5/2023. She was 78 years old. She became famous as a therapist with and advocate for people with little or no functional speech.

Crossley was born on 6/5/1945 at Horsham. She was educated at Morongo school and went on to the Australian National University. After a brief period in the Australian Public Service she began working at the Victorian Spastic Centre with people with severe handicaps.

In 1974 she was hired as a playleader at St. Nicholas Hospital, a Parkville institution for severely handicapped children run by the Victorian Health Commission. It was there that she met Anne McDonald. McDonald had severe cerebral palsy, could not walk, talk, or feed herself, and had been diagnosed as severely retarded.

Crossley decided to see if she could find a way for McDonald to communicate by pointing – first at choices on a communication board, then at word blocks, then letter blocks, and finally on a letter board.

This brought Crossley into conflict with her superiors at the hospital, and eventually McDonald asked to leave. The Health Commission refused to allow this, and were taken to the Victorian Supreme Court on a very rare habeas corpus action. Anne won the action, and left St. Nicholas to live with Crossley and her partner Chris Borthwick for the next thirty-two years.

“Annie’s Coming Out”, Crossley and McDonald’s account of their struggle, was an international bestseller and went on many school curriculums. It was later made into a movie of the same name, which won the AFI Best Picture award in 1984.

The court case, the book, and the film exposed the shortcomings of St. Nicholas Hospital and of the system that had created it, and led directly to the closure of the hospital a few years later – the first step in the deinstitutionalisation of care for people with disabilities in Victoria.

In 1986 Crossley founded the DEAL Communication Centre in Caulfield. The Centre began by working mainly with people with cerebral palsy, but soon found itself taking on clients with other diagnoses – Down Syndrome, Rett Syndrome, developmental disabilities, and, increasingly, autism. In case after case Crossley was able to establish a means of communication with the client, demonstrating that their diagnoses of intellectual disability had been made in error.

Crossley described her methods as Facilitated Communication Training, involving coactive hand-on-hand movement at the beginning of the training process. While she always aimed for eventual independent communication, the method was criticised for allowing communicators to impose their messages on their partners.

Nonetheless, many people who Crossley had helped communicate went on to graduate from schools and universities.

When Anne McDonald died in 2010 DEAL changed its name to the Anne McDonald Centre, but the work went on. iPads, in particular, have spread hand-pointing skills more widely, and newer clients were better able to communicate more independently sooner.

Crossley wrote books (including “Speechless”, 1997) lectured at universities and presented papers at conferences around the world. She was awarded an AM in 1986 for services to people with severe communication impairments and took a doctorate in communication from Victoria University in 1998. She was admired for her indomitable spirit, her determination, and her ability to empower others in advocating for themselves and for the people they loved.

Dr. Crossley died of cancer in the Royal Melbourne Hospital on 10/5/2023. She was working till the end: in the hospital, she was able to assist a nurse who had a foster son with communication handicap with books, boards, and iPad apps.

Together, Crossley and McDonald changed the history of disability. Crossley’s life work of teaching, researching, and advocating for people with little or no functional speech has improved the lives of thousands of the most vulnerable people in many countries and over five decades. Her sharp intellect and wicked good humour will be missed. The world has lost an important voice speaking out for the rights of people with disabilities. Lisarosemary8 (talk) 07:33, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

That is a biased, unreliable source. Please state what edits you want made? Equine-man (talk) 07:43, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Is this the best way for me to post corrections? Please see first requested edit below:

The Anne McDonald Centre, a centre for FC use in Melbourne directed by Crossley[LT1] .

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[LT1]Inaccurate. From the Centre’s website (which does not mention FC): “The Anne McDonald Centre, now an online resource centre for people with little or no functional speech.” Lisarosemary8 (talk) 06:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Source: https://annemcdonaldcentre.org.au/ Lisarosemary8 (talk) 06:50, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not use websites for citations. We need a RELIABLE source. Sgerbic (talk) 17:04, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what other sources would have a reliable description of the Centre's offerings apart from the Centre itself? It is not written about anywhere. Could it simply be noted that the description comes from the Centre website? Where is your source for saying it is "a centre for FC use"? This is simply not correct. This should be removed, at minimum. Lisarosemary8 (talk) 01:14, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Alternative sources for the updated caption information include:

https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/australian-health-services/healthcare-service/caulfield-north-3161-vic/the-anne-mcdonald-centre-formerly-deal-communication-centre/speech-pathology/f1d73bc8-ec65-d73c-210f-0eb0501ceba7 (notes it is a speech pathology provider)

Australian Government Charities and Not-for-Profits Commission (a reliable source): https://www.acnc.gov.au/charity/charities/a5aad9e5-2daf-e811-a962-000d3ad24a0d/profile - says it "provides communication therapy and research" Lisarosemary8 (talk) 01:17, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

If there aren't reliable sources for a statement, then the statement is removed. We don't default to using websites that will be biased. Sgerbic (talk) 01:44, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you - I think we can agree that the Australian Government and Health Direct sources I have included above are reliable?

Otherwise, please remove the above caption immediately, as there is no reliable source for this statement: "The Anne McDonald Centre, a centre for FC use in Melbourne directed by Crossley" Lisarosemary8 (talk) 01:53, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Please do not make demands on what other editors need to do. So you point out two sources that do not mention The Anne McDonald Centre a centre for FC, yet blindly ignore the numerous other reliable sources that call the Centre a centre for FC. Their own website speaks about using FC, so why should the caption be removed?

Your attempts at trying to sanitize this page of referencing The Anne McDonald Centre as using FC appears to be border lining on trying to censor what Wikipedia displays about the topic.

I believe currently the article displays everything it needs to display, in a well referenced manner from reliable sources, and the edits you are proposing do not serve in the interest of the article.

In future if you have any edit requests, please form them in this manner: Template:Request edit

The way you have been haphazardly writing things all over this talk page, makes it easy to miss in your wall of text. Equine-man (talk) 11:33, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I'm not sure how I am 'blindly ignoring numerous sources' - I cannot see these? I have listed two reliable sources above that contradict and supersede this information. I will fill out the template page. Thank you. 203.13.67.10 (talk) 01:27, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

primary source

I removed a long quotation from a particularly unreliable primary source: testimony of a witness in a case relating to the subject of the article who was employed by a party in the case, testimony which it appears the judge ruled not to be directly pertinent. As this is a BLP, it may not be restored without consensus. DGG ( talk ) 22:45, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Death of Crossley

I am aware that the FC world is buzzing on social media that Crossley died yesterday and someone has attempted to make that change here on the Wikipedia page. What they are missing is that Wikipedia requires evidence before making that change. Without getting snarky about the irony of needing evidence, I suppose we will have a quality announcement within the next day or so of her death. Be patient. 17:15, 11 May 2023 (UTC) Sgerbic (talk) 17:15, 11 May 2023 (UTC)