Talk:Saddam Hussein

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Former featured article candidateSaddam Hussein is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 2, 2004Featured article candidateNot promoted
May 9, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
Current status: Former featured article candidate

Is Saddam Hussein officially a terrorist in America or any other countries?[edit]

I was wondering whether he would be categorized as such. George W. Bush said as much, does that make it encyclopedic? Has President Obama since said Saddam Hussein is officially not a terrorist in America; unlike Osama Bin Laden? CensoredScribe (talk) 03:23, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

I doubt Obama has made any statement regarding that as Saddam Hussein has been dead since 2006. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:DA8:D800:279:529:4617:D278:C962 (talk) 19:45, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Iraqi government website and Saddam's internet presence[edit]

The homepage of the Iraqi government during Saddam can be viewed here: http://web.archive.org/web/20000930170810/http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/

This Wired article talks about his email account:

WhisperToMe (talk) 17:16, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Political mentors[edit]

Saddam is often compared to Hitler, but not long after he came to power he was described in an article as being heavily influenced by Josef Stalin, right down to his decision to wear a moustache. Is there any surviving evidence of this? Meltingpot (talk) 07:45, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Edit Request[edit]

I feel like the interrogator, Eric Maddox, who spent months trying to capture Saddam Hussein should receive credit during the comment on his capture. Moments before his departure he was able to pinpoint the precise location of the "Spider Hole". Without him Saddam's Capture might not have taken place. Suggested Edit In 2003, a coalition led by the U.S. invaded Iraq to depose Saddam, in which U.S. President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair accused him of possessing weapons of mass destruction and having ties to al-Qaeda. In December 2013, after months of interrogating detainees, Sargent Eric Maddox was able to pinpoint the precise location of Saddam’s “Spider Hole” in Tikrit. Saddam's Ba'ath party was disbanded and elections were held. Following his capture on 13 December 2003, the trial of Saddam took place under the Iraqi interim government. On 5 November 2006, Saddam was convicted of charges related to the 1982 killing of 148 Iraqi Shi'ites and was sentenced to death by hanging. His execution was carried out on 30 December 2006.[11]

[1] [2]

References

  1. ^ www.ericmaddox.com
  2. ^ Mission: Blacklist #1</Bookref>

Bias[edit]

Article nowhere even mentions the persecution of Shi'ite Muslims under Saddam's rule. 500,000-1,000,000 Shia were killed under his rule and around 300,000 kurds. He was hated by everybody but the minority Sunnis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.161.184 (talk) 18:36, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me? I come from a huge "shi'ite" family, with members who were physically maimed for being politically active, and almost all looked very favorably upon him. He was a dictator and tyrant, but lets not pretend he was loathed by all. Its entirely anecdotal, but to prove 1 million shi'ite were deliberately killed based on religion, you'll have to systematically prove such destruction destruction of shi'ite purely based on religion - you'll have a hard time because he was a secular ruler. 108.0.239.143 (talk) 08:23, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, good that you put "Shi'ite" in "". I'm Iraqi Shia and ther's not one Shia in Iraq having a favourable opinions of Saddam, he is hated by all. Every single Shia family in Iraq lost a family member to his Sunni dominated, secterian government. My wife's father still has marks on his back from tortures he endured at the hands of Saddam's thugs, only for the simple fact that he was a Shia muslim who happened to walk at the wrong time in the wrong place. Between March and October 1991, Saddam killed 200,000 Shi'ites alone. Source: [1] Nowadays, his buddies are the ISIS leadership in Iraq.

Your information is not factual at all. Saddam Hussein was only accused of ordering the killing of the little over 100 Shite protesters in Basra. Add the several thousands of political prisoners that died or were executed barely totals a million. One million huh?

--185.53.243.248 (talk) 08:01, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

200,000 Shi'ites killed alone between March and October in 1991, source: [2]. Add to it massacres, tortures, forced disappeareances, Kurdish victims and you gonna end up with around a million people.


This line: "With the intention of discrediting Saddam Hussein with his supporters, CIA was considering[when?] making a video in which he would be seen having sex with a teenager.[144]" appears under family and relationships. I don't understand how that's relevant to that section. 92.232.57.201 (talk) 08:01, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Reading level of lead[edit]

The following is not cast at an appropriate reading level concerning a historical figure known to every person on the planet who owns a television, whether formally educated or not.

A leading member of the revolutionary Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party, and later, the Baghdad-based Ba'ath Party and its regional organisation Ba'ath Party – Iraq Region—which espoused ba'athism, a mix of Arab nationalism and Arab socialism—Saddam played a key role in the 1968 coup (later referred to as the 17 July Revolution) that brought the party to power in Iraq.

Already discouraging: Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party

Let's do it twice, then: Baghdad-based Ba'ath Party

Twice in duplicate: and its regional organisation Ba'ath Party

With a pedantic flourish: – Iraq Region

Skill testing "which" question: A, and later, B and C—which espoused ba'athism [gloss omitted]—

Stupefying Arrid-extra-dry political gloss: a mix of Arab nationalism and Arab socialism

Long belated SV drop: Saddam played

Extended to belated SVO: a key role in the 1968 coup

Further extended to belated SVO (footnote O): (later referred to as the 17 July Revolution)

Further further extended to belated SVO (footnote O) non-restrictive qualifier: that brought the party to power in Iraq.

I suppose if I had a few years of undergraduate history under my belt, my mind would immediately recognize that B and C are somehow murkily co-extensive with A (there does seem to be a lot of that in politics) and that there really is only one back-reference, however murky it might be, but all I had to work with was a decent background in linguistics, which enabled me to puzzle it all out. — MaxEnt 18:13, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Would you like to improve it, or discuss improvements here? NebY (talk) 16:21, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Lack of section on legacy/views of him[edit]

For such a major figure surely there should be a section about his legacy and how he was viewed during and after his death? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.244.94.46 (talk) 02:31, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Exactly! The articles other major Arab leaders such as Faisal I of Iraq, Hafez al-Assad, Hussein of Jordan, Ibn Saud, and Anwar Sadat have the same problems. Charles Essie (talk) 18:30, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

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Intro section[edit]

The lead doesn't flow very well; maybe the section on his name can be moved elsewhere? David O. Johnson (talk) 03:00, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Missing cite regarding Halabja attack[edit]

I don't have right to edit the article due to semi-protection, and I suggest citing ref. 15 of Halabja chemical attack regarding:

The United States now maintains that Saddam ordered the attack to terrorize the Kurdish population in northern Iraq,[60] but Saddam's regime claimed at the time that Iran was responsible for the attack[61] which some[who?] including the U.S. supported until several years later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lsoksane (talkcontribs) 08:25, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Name[edit]

He should be referred to by his surname in the article. (92.0.99.44 (talk) 17:58, 9 December 2015 (UTC))

My edit request concerns the following excerpt in the article's introductory section:

"Whereas some[10] venerated Saddam for his opposition to Israel—which included the use of military force[11]—he was widely condemned in the west for the brutality of his dictatorship."

There are 5 assertions in the above: 1. Saddam Hussein opposed Israel. 2. This opposition included military force. 3. Some venerated him for this opposition. 4. His dictatorship was brutal. 5. The west widely condemned this brutality.

While all of the above statements are veridical, the sentence's syntax creates an inference that goes beyond these five facts. It is made to appear that an opposition to Israel, a subjective stance, is an objectively honorable one. This is done by means of juxtaposing this position against the notion of a brutal dictatorship, which is indeed considered to be universally comdemnable to the extreme. In other words, it is implying that the two are morally commensurate polar opposites, which they are not. While it is of course the case that many are opposed to Israel, it is biased to imply here that as many people in the world are opposed to Israel as they are opposed to brutal dictatorships.

Here is the original quotation from which the excerpt extracts the point: "In attacking the Israeli heartland and openly defying the US...[Saddam] restored to Arabs their human dignity." It is a generalization to use the word 'some' when replacing 'Arabs', as Arabs are an idiosyncratic, ethnic, cultural, regional, and political group with distinct viewpoints.

Finally, it should be noted that the source regarding Saddam's opposition to Israel is from a work by Norman Finkelstein, a highly controversial and noted anti-Israel activist.

Here's a possible replacement sentence:

"Saddam was widely condemned in the west for the brutality of his dictatorship. Some in the Arab world, however, viewed some of his actions favorably, such as his opposition to Israel, which included military force."

Thank you for reading.

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Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 23:54, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

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Edit request: grammar fix[edit]

There's an extra word in the third sentence of the second-to-last paragraph of the Iran-Iraq War section.

It says "Neither side had achieved what they had originally desired and at the borders were left nearly unchanged."

The word "at" should be removed, and a comma should be added.

Thanks. Rtdrovla (talk) 06:54, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

While you're at it, there's a horrible run-on sentence in the final paragraph of that section: "However, this had proven to completely backfire both on Iraq and on the part of the Arab states, for Khomeini was widely perceived as a hero for managing to defend Iran and maintain the war with little foreign support against the heavily backed Iraq and only managed to boost Islamic radicalism not only within the Arab states, but within Iraq itself, creating new tensions between the Sunni Ba'ath Party and the majority Shiite population."

This can be broken up into multiple sentences very easily. Rtdrovla (talk) 07:00, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

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More appropriate article picture[edit]

the main picture currently used is not really common and does not depict his facial features fully plus its way too zoomed. I suggest using a more official picture that better presents him. And i already have what i think very good ones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HaidarBoss (talkcontribs) 05:33, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

long quote[edit]

The block quotation in the execution section should be either summarized or sent to the footnote. The best place for such footnotes are Wikiquote. --Mhhossein talk 12:59, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Removal of "20th-century criminals" category[edit]

Hey @Swazzo: We know that "Saddam Hussein was found guilty of crimes against humanity" on 5 November 2006 and that'w why there's no POV if we say that he was a 20th-century criminal. Can you say why you removed that category? Regards. --Mhhossein talk 11:07, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Ad Nauseam, not Nasuem.[edit]

"...which stages the story ad nasuem..." is incorrect; the term is "ad nauseam." If the word is misspelled in the passage being quoted, there should be a [sic] after "nasuem." ~~Mpaniello~~

Infobox image[edit]

@StjJackson: Hey, I just noticed that you had changed the Infobox image from a more recent version to an older one. I'm in favor of Glide08's edit, since it shows a more recent and realistic image of Saddam. --Mhhossein talk 18:40, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

  • what does it mean "realistic" for the image? All the images are realistic for they are images, not paintings. There was a consensus to keep the older image because it represents the most widely known appearance of Saddam Hussein - without beard and relatively young. I'll change it unless you provide some more convincing arguments. --Agranome et Chofers (talk) 19:11, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
    • No, there was no consensus for that, where is that? We should not ignore the most fresh version. Pinging Volvlogia for attention. --Mhhossein talk 19:22, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
      • Here are two encyclopedic instances of 2000s Saddam pictures used as the definitive Saddam.[1][2]. --Volvlogia (talk) 19:40, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
        • This can be seen in your own sources. --Mhhossein talk 16:37, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
          • I would prefer to use an older picture of Saddam—without a beard—from before his trial, as that would better reflect his public image both in Iraq and abroad during his long time in power. It's not clear why anyone would prefer to use the unshaven, mildly disheveled Saddam on trial as the main infobox image unless the goal is to present the subject of this article in the most unflattering light possible.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:07, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Saddam Hussein | Biography & Facts". Encyclopedia Britannica. Retrieved 2018-04-21.
  2. ^ "Saddam Hussein". Biography. Retrieved 2018-04-21.


Wartime pejoratives being portrayed in the article as commonplace nicknames vs. actual nicknames[edit]

Much like the Trump administration and US media are the originator and only real entities to call North Korean leader Kim Jong Un "Rocket Man", the same went for the Bush administration and a portion of US media around the time of the invasion of Iraq with the creation of such monikers as "Butcher of Baghdad", "King of Spades", "VIC", etc. The difference being the Wikipedia page for Kim Jong Un does not have this listed multiple times in the article because this isn't a name for him that exists outside of some US media, while on this page such cartoonish pejoratives are distinctly placed. The edits to the article also make it seem like these were long-time, commonplace domestic and international nicknames, even calling it his "title", rather than a creation of wartime media to build support for the war. This sort of lazy wording is rife through the article as well. If it is to remain, at the very least, it should be made clear where this comes from. Additionally, it should include actual nicknames such as "Amo (Uncle) Saddam", "Abu Uday" (father of Uday, his oldest child and a common way to address people in Arabic culture), "Abu Hala" (father of Hala, his youngest child), etc. SeriousSam11 (talk) 19:35, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

I came here after reading the article to raise serious concerns about the article being littered with facts that are out of context and distort the overall tone, and elements that are clearly not written in a neutral tone.
"He (Saddam) acquired the title "Butcher of Baghdad", is purely predjorative. There is no indication who called Saddam this, in what context, I would contend its predjorative, out of context and damages the credibility of the article. --Billbarrelrider (talk) 07:16, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
I agree with both of you. There is also a 4th person who wanted this change [3]. Therefore, we have a consensus. I will make the change in the article. Tradediatalk 18:19, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Article needs updating. duper deeduper updating[edit]

Near the end of the Obama Admisinstration there was a release of declassified documents that demonstrated the knowledge that the Pentagon had collected pertaining to the existence & implementation of WMD's in IRAQ by Saddam Hussein. Facts are in. The accusations were not false after-all & the article of this page needs cleaning up. It needs a special spring cleaning with PENTAGON AUTHORIZATION, because you know...facts are disappointing.

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/9kve3z/the-cia-just-declassified-the-document-that-supposedly-justified-the-iraq-invasion

https://spectator.org/60689_new-york-times-rediscovers-weapons-mass-destruction-iraq/

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2014/10/ny_times_admits_saddam_had_wmds.html

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/02/iraq-had-wmds-after-all.php

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/OpenDebateForum/ahc_bAW0CUI/a4N6pEBEEa8J

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/365393-how-quickly-ny-times-forgets-obamas-lies-and-frauds

& finally the Pentagon Papers themselves that vindicate the Bush Administration & delegitimize the stigma of the then leftist narrative produced by the Anti-War crowd that...*sigh*...has no faith in The American Body of Mind of Position & Identity & Senses & Seasons & Challenges & Emotion & Character & Influences & Sovereignty & Tools & Targets & Techniques & Morals & Morale & Virtues & Vices & Irony & Curses Tinhat & Strategy & Rescue & LIVING THE VISION & Particularity & Oblivion.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/14/world/middleeast/us-casualties-of-iraq-chemical-weapons.html?_r=0

squiggly wiggely weeble wobble time-travel tippy whippy whoppy toppel ….. just say yes to the |swamp-blue-green-dragon-lady-alien. True Premise (talk) 08:14, 27 November 2018 (UTC) True Premise Michael J. Groesbeck Deist Devil's Son

Make an argument beside the sequence you lost child you.

The "leftist narrative" was that Saddam did not possess WMDs. Abandoned materials of a former WMD program are not equivalent to actually existing WMDs or an in-progress program to manufacture them. See: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bush-iraq-wmds_n_5990624 --Ismail (talk) 18:07, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

More appropriate article photo[edit]

The current photo of Hussein here is black and white, appears to be airbrushed and does not represent Hussein well at all. The photo should either be a photo of Hussein as he appeared around the time of the Iraq War (what he is arguably most well known for) or as he appeared later in life, i.e at his trial or prior to his execution. One of the following photos would be more appropriate: Hussein at trial, Hussein in 2001, Hussein in 1979 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nathan868 (talkcontribs) 16:03, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

infobox image[edit]

The current image looks very airbrushed and does not represent Hussein well. I would suggest perhaps this photograph. 78.108.56.35 (talk) 18:34, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Saddam Hussein in 1998.png
I think that, whatever image the article ends up with, it should be during his time in power. I'd personally pick one circa 1990 since that was when he achieved global notoriety. Bearded pictures can easily be shown in parts of the article on his capture and trial. --Ismail (talk) 18:07, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
Can we get consensus on which image to use in the infobox? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 10:26, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
Official portrait per Ismail. As far as I know, it's completely unheard of to use anything else in articles on deceased world leaders, although the most recent picture might be used for BLPs. The disheveled figure of Saddam on trial succeeds in making the subject of this article look bad, but is nevertheless a poor choice for the lede.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 09:26, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
Official portrait per Ismail. I agree. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 11:13, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
Is it actually wikipedia policy to exclusively use official portraits regardless of their quality? The current infobox photo (b/w) is terrible, especially when compared to other higher res, better representative photos readily available on the page. If not the bearded photo, which I would choose due to its high quality and recency, it should surely be one of the colour photos opposite, when he was president. Nathan868 (talk) 15:16, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

What about this one from 1979 (roughly same date as the current image, but higher quality and also in color) or this one from 2001 78.108.56.35 (talk) 11:57, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

I'd go with the 2001 one. I think any picture from about 1988-2002 would be appropriate. --Ismail (talk) 09:07, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
1979
2001
A picture speaks a thousand words, we should use the official portrait to maintain consistent representation of political figures. Any other approach leads to supporters and detractors warring on the article. If the image quality is low I don't think that's so important provided the figure is clearly recognisable. If official multiple official portraits exist of a deceased person, the period in which they held the highest official possition, maybe with consideration to which position they held was more relevant to their not ability. --Billbarrelrider (talk) 07:24, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Surname[edit]

Like I said with Ivan the Terrible (whose surname has been fixed), is there a particular reason Saddam's surname is under S while Uday and Qusay are under H? Cinefan Cinefan (talk) 03:20, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 August 2019[edit]

Uday has a surviving son named Massoud Uday Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein's grandson asks Trump for help against Iran, Dailu Sabah, 27 Feb 2017. 222.164.212.168 (talk) 17:37, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Massoud is son of Uday's wife, Sevim Torun, with whom Uday's marriage lasted onlly for 8 months, after which she escaped to Trukey. Torun had married Uday after she won the 1982 Queen of Bagdad pageant title, she died in Turkey in December 2010 at the age of 52.Saddam Hussein's bride, Queen of Baghdad died in Istanbul, eKurd Daily, 25 Dec 2010. 222.164.212.168 (talk) 18:10, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. These are not reliable sources that establish the veracity of the claimed lineages. --Goldsztajn (talk) 01:44, 25 August 2019 (UTC)