Talk:Sagrestia Nuova

On 6 January 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Sagrestia Nuova (New Sacristy) to Medici Chapel. The result of the discussion was moved to Sagrestia Nuova.

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Medici Chapels was copied or moved into Sagrestia Nuova with this edit on 3 February 2024. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Requested move 6 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus to move option 1 to Sagrestia Nuova instead (closed by non-admin page mover) Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:28, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

– This chapel is more often called the Medici Chapel than either the New Sacristy or the Sagrestia Nuova in English-language sources; see the ngram here. It's also the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the first phrase, and while there are other chapels of the Medici family, in practice references to the "Medici Chapel" in sources are usually to this one, so the others aren't skewing the ngram results. The article currently at Medici Chapel is really about the museum complex of two chapels at San Lorenzo called the Medici Chapels, plural. Having an article of that scope at that title has created an ambiguity about where to concentrate coverage of the chapel designed by Michelangelo and its sculptures. Ham II (talk) 08:01, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Visual arts has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:42, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Sculpture has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:47, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Italy has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:48, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Christianity has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:48, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Architecture has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:48, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support the second one, but not the first, as it is. Really I think "Medici Chapel" should be a disam page, with at least the "Magi" chapel as well. I think the area has enough potential confusion for diambiguated titles, as Medici Chapels, San Lorenzo, Florence. I think Medici Chapel (Michelangelo) would also be justified; he did both the architecture and the sculptures, so the whole thing can fairly be treated as a work. Johnbod (talk) 14:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My second preference would be for this article to be at New Sacristy (the next most common name in sources, per WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION), for Medici Chapel to be a redirect to New Sacristy, and for disambiguation from Medici Chapels and Magi Chapel to be dealt with in a hatnote at New Sacristy. Ham II (talk) 07:57, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ooh, I don't like that at all. Johnbod (talk) 23:54, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support 2nd, Rename 1st to Sagrestia Nuova. We don't use a native name and a translation together and the Italian name is very commonly used. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Referring again to the ngram, New Sacristy is more commonly used than Sagrestia Nuova. I checked seven books on Michelangelo and on Renaissance art from my shelves before starting the nom, and none of them used the phrase Sagrestia Nuova. The article for the corresponding sacristy by Brunelleschi is currently at Sagrestia Vecchia, but per this ngram that should be at Old Sacristy. Ham II (talk) 19:03, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given "New Sacristy" is not exactly an uncommon name, how do you know that all (or even most) of those references are to this one? -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:38, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These are the books on which the ngram's statistics for "New Sacristy" from 1980 to 2019 are based. On the first page of results, 8 of the 10 results are for the New Sacristy in San Lorenzo; on page 2 it's 7/10; on page 3, 4/10. Despite not selecting "Case-Insensitive" in the ngram, I can't seem to keep instances of "new sacristy" (without capital letters) out of these results; otherwise the results for this chapel would be higher. Every mention of the capitalised phrase "New Sacristy" in the aforementioned pages is to the one at San Lorenzo, except for a single mention of one at Santa Maria delle Grazie, Milan. The New Sacristy at San Lorenzo is the only contender for the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the phrase. Ham II (talk) 08:17, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notified: Talk:Michelangelo, Talk:Basilica of San Lorenzo, Florence, Talk:Michelangelo and the Medici, User talk:Greghenderson2006. Reason: Greghenderson2006 created the article Sagrestia Nuova (New Sacristy). Ham II (talk) 19:33, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Against - There is a wikidata item for the Sagrestia Nuova article here. The Sagrestia Nuova article is a translation from the Italian version of the same article here. The Medici Chapel article has only a section about the Sagrestia Nuova, but the main Italian article has so much more, which is the reason to keep it. Please, first look at the the Italian article, then see how we can expand the English version, instead of merging it with Medici Chapel. Thanks! Greg Henderson (talk) 20:13, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's no merger proposal here, just renaming. Johnbod (talk) 01:34, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I am confused as there is already an article for Medici Chapel. Greg Henderson (talk) 16:40, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess you are. The second proposal here is to move that to Medici Chapels. Johnbod (talk) 17:19, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am against the 2nd proposal for the reason I stated above. Greg Henderson (talk) 17:45, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article currently at Medici Chapel is at the wrong title for its scope; Medici Chapel in the singular most often refers to the chapel designed by Michelangelo, which is also known as the New Sacristy. Note that the equivalent Italian article to Medici Chapel is at it:Cappelle medicee, which is in the plural. Ham II (talk) 08:17, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If it would help narrow down the range of possible titles (currently at Medici Chapel, Medici Chapel (Michelangelo), New Sacristy and Sagrestia Nuova as I make it), I've come across one source stating that, unlike Brunelleschi's Old Sacristy which it mirrors, Michelangelo's Medici Chapel wasn't a sacristy at all – Hugo Chapman (2005), Michelangelo Drawings: Closer to the Master, p. 160: "Michelangelo's building on the north side of the church was, by contrast [to Brunelleschi's], designed solely as a funerary chapel where continuous services and prayers were to be offered on behalf of four members of the Medici." My copy of the Blue Guide to Central Italy (2008, p. 298) may be endorsing this view when it refers to "[t]he so-called New Sacristy". I haven't found any other sources taking this view, and indeed one I've looked at explicitly states the opposite – Stephen J. Campbell and Michael W. Cole (2012), A New History of Italian Renaissance Art, pp. 447–8: "Both spaces would have provided chambers for the robing of priests celebrating Mass in the main church; both also served as Medici family burial sites with private family altars." Ham II (talk) 09:14, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support 2nd, Rename 1st to Sagrestia Nuova per Necrothesp. We should remove the unnecessary parenthetical disambiguation. Vpab15 (talk) 12:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Vanderwaalforces, only 2 of the 5 editors contributing supported this. How is this consensus? An obvious "no consensus" close. Johnbod (talk) 16:49, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it clearly had to be moved away from Sagrestia Nuova (New Sacristy) whatever the consensus was for the second part of the proposal. We never, ever title articles using both the native name and the English translation like that. What would you suggest? Because from your comment above I'm honestly not sure what your preference is. Same goes for Greg Henderson. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:00, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure - I was hoping a better option would be proposed, but it wasn't. That's why the discussion is an obvious no consensus close. Johnbod (talk) 17:20, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree, but, as I said, it had to be moved away from the current title. Not to do so would just be pointless dogma and completely against standard practice on Wikipedia. So this was the best option. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:51, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well he shouldn't have pretended it had consensus when it didn't. His talk page is a litany of complaints about poor closes from experienced editors, and his arrogant responses don't inspire confidence. Johnbod (talk) 17:02, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When Medici Chapel (Michelangelo) was first mentioned I thought it a less elegant way to disambiguate than New Sacristy would be, but it's growing on me now, and it does include the most prevalent name for the chapel. I've been changing links on articles from Medici Chapel (which is now a disambiguation page) to Medici Chapel (Michelangelo) (now a redirect to Sagrestia Nuova) and it works well. In a minority of cases Medici Chapels or Cappella dei Principi were the right targets, but most of our links to Medici Chapel had Michelangelo's one in mind. Ham II (talk) 08:28, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]