Talk:Shiva/Archive 3

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Shiva's Consorts

Regarding your change of Parvati's names, you are technically correct that Durga is not exactly the same as Parvati because Parvati was provided additional powers by Trimurti to change to Durga. However, Sati and Parvati are the consorts only of the Kailash yogi form of Shiva. But Shakti IS universally considered the feminine energy (i.e. the active energy or the strength) of the formless Shiva. I agree that Shakti is not necessarily another name for Parvati as it was previously written here. But Shakti and Shiva are like two faces of the same coin - masculine and feminine. This is also the view taken by those who consider linga as the representation of the masculine potential (Shiva) and argha or peetha as the feminine potential (Shakti) that brings material into existence. Also, at all Shakti Peethas, Shakti is accompanied by Bhairav (the fierce manifestation of Lord Shiva - not the ascetic or householder form of Shiva, but Shiva nonetheless) as her consort. We are probably returning to the same topic of Shiva of many perceptions and forms. I think this article is missing one of the most important sections - that on the relationship of Shiva and Shakti and I notice it has already been suggested on "Talk" page that this section be added. Apalaria (talk) 22:00, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

The current infobox seems good. --Redtigerxyz Talk 08:20, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
Kali is the fierce form of Parvati. Since several Hindus worship Kali, it is POV to leave out Kali from the list of Shiva's consorts. Adding Kali to the list. Apalaria (talk) 20:07, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Shiva's Image

Please note that the image of four-armed Shiva statue with the Lead is monotheistic Shaivism POV. Shiva has NOT been described in Hindu scriptures as four-armed. Chaturbhuj or four-armed is an epithet (and another name - see Vishnu Sahasranaam) for Vishnu. I would hate to conjecture on this but development of such four-armed statues could be an attempt on the part of monotheistic Shaivas to counteract Vaishnavas. It is ok to show Shiva's image as a yogi in meditation with all his famous attributes but a four-armed image is not scriptural and is certainly not the balanced point of view. Samenewguy (talk) 15:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree that four-armed depiction of Shiva is not proper and can be considered Shaivism POV by Vaishnavas. Instead of the picture of a statue, I suggest an iconic picture showing Shiva as a yogi with two arms. Also, I am editing the caption to say "Shiva depicted as yogi", since this is only one representation of Shiva. Apalaria (talk) 22:00, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

How about using Image 1 in lead? --Redtigerxyz Talk 08:19, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
This may be okay, or I found a two-armed meditating representation on Shiva on flickr. I have uploaded it with the license details. See Image 2. Apalaria (talk) 15:51, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I think the image Redtigerxyz suggested is better given that it has most iconographical attributes associated with Shiva. Apalaria (talk) 15:58, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Image 2 will soon be deleted for being copyvio. The source doesn't seem to have original. I dont like the Image 1 as most of it is that red wash i don't know why. Thats quite distracting. I am proposing Image 3. Although not a classic or historic image, its how Shiva is imagined by majority. This is a wall painting by some amateur artist but very well shows all keys points of Ganga, trishul, moon, snake, damroo and the third eye. Not the best image, but i prefer it over other two. Open for more options. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 18:56, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Image 3 is a problem as copyvio (Derivative work). Redtigerxyz Talk 05:28, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
How is that so? The original uploader has given permission to adapt the work. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 10:10, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
It is a photo of a painting (Derivative). Permission from the painter is required. Redtigerxyz Talk 07:30, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
It falls under COM:GRAFFITI. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 17:52, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Dharmadhyaksha, we don't know if it is Graffiti (illegal). It may be a legal painting (See Mural definition in same link as graffiti) by the owner. A similar image of a local Devi that I uploaded from flickr with the same license was deleted in Commons. Redtigerxyz Talk 13:00, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Image 2 has been deleted. In any case, I like image 1 the best. I have already modified it to remove the excess blank area in the image and it looks very good. I do not like image 3 and it also does not show the crescent moon. Apalaria (talk) 19:43, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Current image is the best. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:14, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Its fine to not use Image 5. Image 4 is good. But i personally don't like bearded Shiva. How about cropping Image 5? I also don't like image 1 because it has Parvati in it. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 12:45, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I would suggest Image 6 (recently added by me in the gallery). Its Shiva alone in the image and such kind of statue is very common in India. -Yoonadue (talk) 10:53, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Indus Valley Civilisation Proto shiva/pashupati seal

Dear All,

I politely ask you to see deer image encrypted on throne/seat of Proto Shiva or pashupati seal. Please verify my claims. can you trust your eyes? if yes than please see pashupati seal and tell me if it is a bull or deer? If great authors did mistake in seeing things , doesn't mean that we must continue the same mistake. Can we blind ourself if others cannot see?

I also ask you to look at ancient/modern images from google of jain tirthankar shantinath with symbol of deer below his seat, you will see that i wrote truth. Moreover you can clearly see difference between bull and a deer. the pashupati seal/proto shiva in wiki article clearly shows exact figure of deer...so why are you confused? Please see those images.Should I stop trusting my eyes and say that pashupati seal/proto shiva has buffalo seal when I can clearly see it is a deer?

Facts: 1) Shiva is associated with 'Nandi', a bull (not a buffalo). 2)"Yam Raj" is another diety associated with Buffalo 3)Tirthankar Shantinath is associated with deer. 4) Tirthankar RiShab is associated with buffalo under his seat(same pre historic times of shiva) and he is also one of the ancestor of Ram as both are Ikshwaku vamshi.

One more thing,all jain texts are not available on net like "agams", which were written 3-6 Century BCE. But nobody has put it online.

Source : More than 10,000 ancient places, pictures of centuries old Jain tirthankar Shantinath on google with symbol of deer.Also there is not even a single picture or temple of shiva with deer on his seat.

I believe new findings & concepts should always be a welcome. So if you have a policy of citing resource than please look at those sources provided .

warm regards Dr Prashanna Jain Gotani (talk) 21:02, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

This argument is completely original research. Please include facts in articles that are backed by references. The article also acknowledges that Pashupati seal as Shiva is disputed, which encompasses the Jain claim. --Redtigerxyz Talk 04:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I've asked the editor to drop this. We aren't going to look at images and this isn't a forum. Dougweller (talk) 12:45, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Pashupati seal shows seated ithyphallic figure surrounded by animals, possibly Shiva, as per common theory. Jain tirthankararas are never depicted as ithyphallic and in Hinduism also only Shiva is the only deity which is depicted as ithyphallic - that is why most of noted researchers have related seal with Shiva. Jain theories are fringe theories and they never discuss about why the seated figure is shown ityphallic because that will take away their argument that possible figure is Jain either they are fringe theory or original research not backed by third party scholars. Most of these theories are written by Jain scholars only recently. Jethwarp (talk) 03:48, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
The other apart from being ithyphallic reasons why it is related to Shiva are well known but I will repeat it - Shiva is generally depicted as sitting in yogic mudra as is seal and he is also referred to as Pashupati - the name implying Lord of Animals - that is why seal was named Pashupati seal. Jethwarp (talk) 03:59, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Quote from debnath

I've removed this quote. Note that an opinion is not something we include merely because it has been published. To be considered reliable and not original research, the publication must be peer reviewed or the opinion must be commented on by other secondary sources. The mere existence of an opinion does not make it noteworthy for inclusion on Wikipedia. --regentspark (comment) 18:54, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

The Debnath book is a dubious source. For example this earlier quote added to the article by the author (Parnashree is likely a sock) contains an etymology for Harappa that is unadulterated fringe (to be polite). The quote/word-salad being currently added is closer to being unintelligible rather than wrong (what does "White being the colour of highest manifestation" even mean?) and while in religion/scripture related articles we sometimes need to include less-than-lucid quotes, that is justifiable only when they originate from primary sources or recognized authorities. This source does not qualify. Abecedare (talk) 21:57, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Probably, author must have wikilink, good idea. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:27, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
He had an article. It was deleted by AfD as he didn't meet the criteria of notability for academics (or people in general, for that matter). Dougweller (talk) 05:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

how it can be undue and irrelevant???!!!!

Mr Abecedare and his supporters could you please explain how my edits are undue and irrelevant to this article?Eshwar.omTalk tome 08:56, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for asking on the talk page! Here is the sub-section you were adding to the Historical development of Shiva section. The problems as I see them:
  • Undue-ness: Only a bit of the text you were adding is even related to Shiva viz. according to a a few medieval legends Shiva taught Tamil to Agatsya (or Sanskrit to Panini). That is a trivial detail with regards to Shiva, on par with other less-well-known myths of the form that Shiva is the originator of the Vedas etc (which too are not included in this article). Contrast this with say, legends linking Shiva with Ganga, which define a common feature of his iconography and thus are covered in both the Shiva and Ganges articles.
  • Irrelevance: The content you added is irrelevant to the historical development of Shiva section, which maps how Shiva transformed from a relatively minor Vedic deity, to a member of the trinity, and then to the central figure in Shaivism.
  • Source bombing: Simply searching Google books fro lord shiva taught tamil ,sanskrit and indiscriminately citing the first few books that the search throws up, without regards to the books' subject or content, is not a good way to write or source content. Nte that not a single book you cite is actually a work on Shiva or Shaivism.
Abecedare (talk) 11:40, 24 October 2013 (UTC).

I am really feel upset while i read your reply.see what i asked you? how it can be(my content) undue and irrelevant??you said the content where i added is irrelevant to the historical development of Shiva section.ok!that's fine.but please read once if you not read properly.there is no specific section called "the historical development of Shiva" in this article.is it so?!the section is called "Historical development and literature".Am i correct?!!if you read the history of the article properly.then you could not miss use the Source bombingpolicy here.Before one user like you removed my content and he comments poor sourced.so i added reliable sources.please go through the history of the article. dont say source bombing. i hope that is not fair to use here.you have a choice to trim that.dont you forget.In other hand ,At first you mentioned that my content was not suitable for the sub section of this article.if it is not suitable for the subsection then why do you care about source??!!No need to think about that.Am i correct??!!Eshwar.omTalk tome 06:16, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

You have been given a lucid and clear explanation now (and before) about what the problems are, that you choose not to listen and misinterpret should not fall on others. Also, please don't create WP:POVFORKs to add the same content elsewhere. —SpacemanSpiff 06:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your participation over here Mr spacemanspiff.i will avoid POVFORK such kind of things in future.Eshwar.omTalk tome 18:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Do anybody have a suggestion like Mr Abecedare ?May i proceed with my contents?want anybody discuss further on that?Please join?Thank youEshwar.omTalk tome 18:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC).

Not sure what you intend to proceed with. If it is anything related to the Shiva-Agatsya-Tamil, propose your content changes here and gain consensus, before adding it to the article. Abecedare (talk) 23:21, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

i hope i answered your question already?!!you had mentioned that Shiva-Agatsya-Tamil are trivial detail with regards to Shiva.but you forgot under which subsection what contents are there.already i said please read the article titles properly then come to talk page.that is better. i know to gain consensus, before adding it to the article.so only i asked.first you said undue and irrelevant?then you said what i added is irrelevant to the historical development of Shiva.then i replied there is no section called" the historical development of Shiva.i hope you remember all.Then i dont know how you said "Not sure what you intend to proceed with".because of you only i am in talkpage then how you not sure what i am going to be add.do you remember who removed the contents from the article and who has given wrong comments.Eshwar.omTalk tome 10:45, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Eshwar, I am having a hard time understanding what you are saying and how it addresses the problems I listed above with the Shiva-Agatsya-Tamil content being added to the article. Abecedare (talk) 00:25, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

This is the content i am going to add under Historical development and literature. In Hindu tradition, the creation of the Tamil language is credited to the Rig Vedic sage Rishi Agastya and it is said that Lord Shiva himself taught Rishi Agastya this language.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] Sage Rishi Agastya is considered as the Father of Tamil literature and compiled the first Tamil grammar called Agathiyam. It is believed that he has lived in the 6th or 7th century B.C and specialized in language, alchemy, medicine and spirituality (yogam and gnanam). There are 96 books in the name of Agathiyar.[9] In Tamil language the term 'Agam' means inside and 'iyar' means belong. One who belong inside (soul) is the Tamil meaning for Agastya or Agathiyar.Siva taught Sanskrit to Panini, and Tamil to Agastya[1][5][10] It is believed that Panini has lived in the 6th or 7th century B.C.[11].Eshwar.omTalk tome 06:07, 27 October 2013 (UTC) Abecedare tell me ,which of the following title could be good. 1.Creation of Tamil and Sanskrit languages. 2.Tamil literature. Thank youEshwar.omTalk tome 06:07, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

That does not address any of the problems listed above. Such failure to follow the discussion is disruptive. Abecedare (talk) 19:08, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

see Rishi Agastya is one of the seven sages in Hindu literature.with out Agastya we never imagine Shiva's history.And also we never avoid tamil in this.It is strongly believe that siva himself thought Tamil to Agastya in tamil mythology and Tamil literature says that. we wont forget this matter here.because Agastya compiled the first Tamil grammar book called Agathiyam.And siva and visnu are the most worship gods in india particularly predominantly in Tamilnadu.That is why both vaishnava and shaiva bakthi movement starts from Tamilnadu and then spreads all over India. you can find these information from Goverment of india's official website.Thank you.Apart from this explanations i already given reliable sources in the contents .I hope that is enough.here i dont know what is your problem.i dont know you mother tongue.but i know and sure your mother tongue not a Tamil.May be some other regional language..so that your are always against the tamil realted subjects.i know it is common in India related articles.Already i faced this kind of issue.even mine also Not Tamil.But My interest is Tamil Realated.so please stop this kind of activity further,Thank you.Eshwar.omTalk tome 06:29, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

References

Shiva's children

Hello someone had added Ashoksundri as daughter of Shiva. I had removed it because no religious and ancient text or folklore ever mentions Shiva had a daughter. Ashoksundri only appeared in the TV series Devon Ke Dev...Mahadev and from there people started interpreting Shiva had a daughter. The Ashoksundri depicted in that serial is fictional and was only added for entertainment of viewers. The editor who inserted Ashoksundari as daughter of Shiv in the infobox of the article didn't provide any reliable source or reference. Do not insert Ashoksundri as daughter of Shiva again since Shiva had no daughter and especially there is no proof for it. 70.39.185.96 (talk) 14:54, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your edit and note. I agree that unless there is an attested and notable mythological source (which I doubt), Ashok Sundari does not belong in this article. Abecedare (talk) 15:15, 5 November 2013 (UTC)


There is a proof that Ashoksundari shown in Devon Ke Dev...Mahadev is just fiction. In the Tv series she marries a prince named Nahusha who later becomes king of devas after Indra is defeated by demon king Jallandhara. After Jallandhara's killing Indra asks his throne back from Shiva. However Shiva refuses and Nahusha is handed the throne. Please note that everything that this was plot of the TV series. Now the proof. There does actually exist a person named Nahusha and he did become king of devas however he did not marry any daughter of Shiva, he married the daughter of Pitrs. And the biggest thing he existed during the period of Mahabharata or Dwapar Yuga however in Tv series he is depicted in Treta Yuga. This "real" Nahusha became king of heaven and devas after Indra killed the demon king Vritra, however since Vritra was also a Brahmin Indra also earned the great sin of killing a Brahmin. Due to this he gave up this throne and went into exiled. The real Nahusha was invited by Devas to take his place for time being. However he became arrogant and disrepected a sage Agastya Rishi who cursed him to roam the earth as a python. However after intervention by Narada the sage limited his curse and said that only the eldest Pandava Yudhisthira would free him from his curse In the TV series too Indra kills a Brahmin but still remains king. This Brahmin is however not Vritra but does have a brother with the same name. After Jalandhara dethrones Indra in the TV series and is later killed by Shiva Nahusha is made king of devas instead of Indra. In the TV series a demon king named Durgasur dethrones him but is later killed by Durga but Indra is made king of heaven again after the demon's killing. It can obviously be seen that this fictional Nahusha of the tv series is based upon the real Nahusha sice there story has much similarity. Hoeever the story of king Nahusha in the TV series is changed just to provide entertainment to the viewers. Most people think the TV series "Devon ke Dev Mahadev" shows the true story. However it has been reported by many mediq outlets that the story shown in the show is very inaccurate when compared to Hindu mythology. This is a proof that the Ashoksundari shown in the TV show is fictional because according to Hindu mythology Nahusha married daughter of Pitrs not Shiva. 70.39.185.88 (talk) 16:50, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

With regard to Shiva's daughter, i had searched in the internet and had found 3 links stating that Shiva had a daughter by the name Ashok Sundari. She is mentioned in the Padma Purana, associated with salt and find mention in folk stories in Gujarat, according to the links which i see some what informative. This information i have mentioned in the article. My apologies, i haven't checked the talk page before editing. If these links are not found reliable, then the added content of Ashok Sundari should be removed. Here are the 3 links. We can check and discuss their reliability.

Work2win (talk) 11:01, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

How should we just believe that she appears in Padma Purana and Gujrati folk tales. Where is she mentioned in the Padma Purana? There must be a "shloka" or "section" where she is mentionedAlso if she is actually a relgious godess how is she mentioned in Padma Purana. Because regional gods are not mentioned in Padma Purana only those about whom a general universal belief us held. There are many websites on the internet that provide false stories of legends. Also note that the websites which you have mentioned only published this story of "AshokSundari" in 2012 or 2013 only after her charcter appeared in the tv series Devon Ke Dev...Mahadev. Why didn't any website publish it earlier. Even she was little known someone would have known her story. Also note that the websites themselves say "The idea of devotees ‘creating’ gods and goddesses is not unknown to Hinduism'. Maybe she can be compared to Santoshi Mata.

Also note that may regional or little known gods like Ayyappan, Vishnu maya, Aiyanar are said to be children of Shiva according to some folklores. However they are not added as his children in the infobox of this Wikipedia article. Only those children about whom there is a general belief are added to the infobox of this article. Also note that if she does exist then she is only a regional goddess. In that case, she cannot be added as a child of Shiva in the infobox of this article. It would be like adding someone as a child of a person in the to that article just becuase someone said that they might be a child of that person. She can be mentioned in the article that some legends mention Ashoksundari as Shiva's daughter. That is only if she is a real goddess and not mere creation of fiction. Also the reliability of websites need to be discussed. MythoEditor (talk) 12:55, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Also these websites you have mentioned say that Ashoksundari's husband was Nahusa and he was grandson of Yayati. However in actual the real Nahusha married the daughter of Pitrs not a daughter of Shiva. And also Yayati was actually son of Nahusha not his grandfather. You can read this in the Wikipedia articles of Nahusha and Yayati. Here are the websites that confirm the true story of Nahusha and Yayati.

That means the websites you have mentioned are providing wrong stories. Ashoksundari seems to be most probably a work of fiction. Where is she mentioned in the Padma Purana? MythoEditor (talk) 13:13, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


This short English translation of Padma Purana itself explictly says Yayati was son of Nahusha. However it does not mention any Ashoksundari.

This proves the websites mentioned earlier were providing wrong and unreliable stories. Wrong information is itself a sign of unreliabilty of a website. MythoEditor (talk) 13:13, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Most websites are not suitable sources for this article, see WP:RS. Mythfolklore.net is an University of Oklahoma online course run by Laura Gibbs.[3] so that may be ok, but we really should be using only academic sources for this. Dougweller (talk) 13:42, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
This is not even a big issue.. Please don't use "blogspot", "wordpress", or any such extensions for proving your point. Bladesmulti (talk) 13:54, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
Actually I was only trying to show that the information of those websites was wrong. The link to the website that I have providee that Yayati was son of Nahusha. Also as Dougweller said we should be using only academic sources. None of the websites provided by Work2Win are academic sources and well as already said they are displaying incorrect information which indicated unreliability. MythoEditor (talk) 20:17, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
Saraswati is also regarded as daughter of Shiva by many sources, some being hindu scriptures themselves. Bladesmulti (talk) 21:09, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
You yourself say Saraswati is regarded as his daughter by some sources. This article actually contains only those children about whom a general view held that is about which most scriptures say is correct. Can I ask you which Hindu scripture say she is daughter of Shiva? Because we cannot just simply say scripture regards Saraswati as daughter of Shiva unless specifically mentioning which scriptures they are exactly. As far as I know only Skanda Purana mentions her as Shiva's daughter. I don't know if this is even correct because I read this thing from the Wikipedia article for the godesss and the source used for this wasn't an academic source. Each religious scripture always has a variation. Some consider Lakshmi to be the daughter of Bhrigu while some consider her to be daughter of Varuna. The general view is actually that she is daughter of Brahma himself.According to Matsay Purana she is the daughter of Brahma. MythoEditor (talk) 05:10, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Saraswati is mostly regarded as uncreated[4]. Bladesmulti (talk) 05:30, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Well your reasoning might be stronger than mine since what I said was from some websites from the internet. You have a book to backup your comments. You might want to add this info to the Wikpedia article about the godess Saraswati. MythoEditor (talk) 11:56, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Later someday, anyways, I am just saying that ashok sundari can be added back. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:21, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Not until there is an academic source available for example a book. I already proved that the websites eariler added by Work2Win display wrong information. It's not necessary that every website will display correct information about myths and legend. Unless it has an academic source anything can be removed from this article or any other article about mythology. MythoEditor (talk) 17:36, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
If this was simply mythology, would have added a lot more without even so large amount of discussions, but these basis share some ground as well, Ashok Sundari is populated by some TV show, i think. Ashok Sundari has own page too already, but let;s see. Bladesmulti (talk) 18:13, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
We held such a large discussion and what for? Simply saying the sources were unreliable. Academic sources should be used for creating mythological articles. Somebody just saw that "her story" was available on some websites and they probably added it without even thinking that her stories even exist at all in Hindu mythology at all. She's most likely a creation of fiction. The article of Ashoksundari doesn't have any reliable sources. I think it should be deleted. WP:RS states clearly that only academic sources should be used for mythological articles. MythoEditor (talk) 00:45, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

You can't add something just because you think it is correct or believe it might exist not atleast until you can prove it. AshokSundari cannot be added into this article or any other mythological article unless it can be proved that she exists at all in mythology. It's dissaponting to see that people have added the article about her just because they think she exists. It is against the rules of Wikipedia. They probably just saw her on that tv show Devon Ke Dev...Mahadev and thought she might be real. It's not necessary that everything shown in a religious tv series might be correct or accurate. I've removed all sources of the article since they actually are not academic sources and are also unreliable. As a result I've also removed the incorrect information that was displayed in those sources. MythoEditor (talk) 04:45, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree Devon ke Dev...Mahadev does not correctly portray Hindu mythology, however Ashoka Sundari is a folk goddess of Gujarat. She does exist in Padma Purana as Nahusha's wife. Even Mani, Puranic Encyclopedia has an entry about her. So she does deserve an article and the references there are RS, author including Devdutt Pattnaik. That said there are many regional deities that are described as Shiva's children: Aiyappa, Aiyangar, Manasa etc., but these need not be mentioned here, only mainstream children of Shiva need to be mentioned. Redtigerxyz Talk 06:31, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Where is the proof? She was actually; just a character in a play [ http://books.google.co.in/books?id=zB4n3MVozbUC&pg=PA1090&dq=Ashok+Sundari&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HxTKULaAHtHoiQLQ_4CYDQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Ashok%20Sundari&f=false] by Shambu Prasad. Also note that Devon ke Dev Mahadev is inspired by workings of Devdutt Patnaik and his writings are mainly in form of plays. Also where is she in the Puranic encyclopedia? Also opinions cannot be used as sources. Only academic sources like real books can be used as sources for WP:RS. MythoEditor (talk) 06:42, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
MythoEditor, the link given by me is erroneous. It does not refer to the goddess, but to a namesake character. As per WP:NEWSORG, even newspapers are RS, depending on the author. Devdutt Pattanaik is a respected mythologist who written numerous scholarly books on the subject. Also, the articles are published in notable newspapers Mid day and Times of India's supplement The Speaking Tree. I have added 3 encyclopedias which mention Ashokasunadari. I don't think any doubt about the goddess's existence. Please note she is worshipped in Gujarat, though not on a wide scale. Redtigerxyz Talk 13:54, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Shiva infobox image

User:Eshwar.om, The current image was discussed at Talk:Shiva/Archive_3 and put after a consensus there. Please discuss before putting a new image. The new image of Vrishabhantika is poor quality and does not show details of Shiva's iconography like third eye, Ganga, moon, Trishula clearly. --Redtigerxyz Talk 14:31, 8 July 2014 (UTC) ok Redtigerxyz,Eshwar.omTalk tome 06:11, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Other religions

User:Lindashiers, I think that we can probably remove the Kiranti/Kirat people reference that has been made about Shiva, if we were to search about "lord of animals" we can find no sources. It has been added to the article for long period, but I don't know if there is really some notability compared to other historical pieces that section includes. Figure has some strong connection with Nepal, China, etc. It should be described differently. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:30, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi. For personal reasons I can't edit this article for the next few days. I look fwd to taking this further after that. Sorry. Lindashiers (talk) 16:37, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Audio wrong

He is pronouncing it Shiv, it should be pronounced Shiva. I'm deleting it but some asshole is putting it back. Can someone keep that change permanent? 207.68.250.79 (talk) 09:59, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

While you are correct in removing it, please don't attack other editors. Materialscientist, do you have a reason why you reverted? --NeilN talk to me 11:59, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
The fact that the other edit by the IP changed Mount Kailash to Mount Kailasha may be why. Dougweller (talk) 15:24, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I did that too.Should be Kailasha, not Kailash. There's no halantha in the ending. why not? i live in a free country, someone did something asinine.i called them out on it. 207.68.250.79 (talk) 19:38, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME. On the English-language Wikipedia we use the names most commonly found in English language sources. And please comment on content, not the contributor. --NeilN talk to me 21:01, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

but it's wrong. most people are ignorant of it so they misspell it. or they are using regional pronunciation, not the actual/original one.

i did make a change to the actual content, i only called out the a-hole when he started acting like one. 207.68.250.79 (talk) 21:08, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

You broke the link. You aren't free to do that. You are free to go to the article's talk page and argue for it being renamed, but we use the most common name in reliable English language sources, which is Kailash. Dougweller (talk) 21:11, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

If the link is wrong, then it's wrong. That's not my fault. i saw a mistake and i corrected the mistake. Fuck what's reliable english language, what's oft available isn't always correct. It's a Sanskrit name. The actual name is Kailasha. In Hindi there's something called schwa deletion which leads to the ending being chopped off. and there happen to be way more Hindi speakers in India than any other language so you'll see a bias in english sources. so i beseech you to make the correction to reflect the correct name.207.68.250.79 (talk) 06:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

btw, this is from the article itself. i didn't write this: Mount Kailāsa: 207.68.250.79 (talk) 06:57, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

shiva's son ayyappa

Namaskaram all. this talk page new section created to stop edit war.especially edit war created by the user Redtigerxyz. Please explain mr Redtigerxyz why ayyappa name do not occur in the lead?NamaskaramEshwar.omTalk tome 19:06, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

According to talk page of the user Redtigerxyz ,what he mentioned as a reference which is not reliable reference.Will you agree MrRedtigerxyz?NamaskaramEshwar.omTalk tome 20:06, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Ayyappa is a regional deity from Kerala, which hardly any basis in the pan-Hindu scriptures like the Puranas or the epics. There are several regional deities who enjoy the same claim of being Shiva's child; see "Ascetic and Householder" section. Why should Ayyappa be given priority over Manasa from Bengal, Ashokasundari from Gujarat, the Tamil Aiyangar or Hanuman (who in only 1 scripture the Shiva Purana is the son of Shiva and Mohini; not in lead as a fringe belief).--Redtigerxyz Talk 16:26, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Namaskaram mr red tiger. Do you have any idea or list for pan hindu gods.let me know then will it help me in future?how to say it s fringe belief?could you explain ?Then it more helpfull fr me.might you do that for me.thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eshwar.om (talkcontribs) 22:00, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Actually the infobox only contains the name of those children of Shiva which are accepted by Majority of scriptures. Kartikeya and Ganesha are but not Aiyappa. He is only accepted as Shiva's child in some scriptures. There are many other children of Shiva in other legends and scriptures like Ashokasundari, Vishnu maya, Sasha and many more. But this infobox should only contains those which are accepted Shiva's children by majority of legends and scriptures. These other children of Shiva like Aiyappa are not mentioned at all in majority of scriptures. MythoEditor (talk) 08:08, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
hi MythoEditor. can you tell any reliable indian goverment source for that.(both state, centeral govt of india)?!!Eshwar.omTalk tome 11:54, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
We wouldn't use a government source for something like this. Such sources are too often political, determined by the party in power at the time.Dougweller (talk) 13:23, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
hi mr Dougweller Namaskaram(hai), Are you making fun about Govt of india and its policy.Let me know.if it is not then what do you mean.what do you thinking about People and Govt of India.i will escalate this matter.but before let me know something from you?Eshwar.omTalk tome 19:07, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
Eshwar.om do you yourself have any source that Ayyappa is mentioned in any Sanskritic texts. You don't and that my friend is double standards. Academic sources like books are generally preferred in mythological articles since they are written by academic scholars (atleast sometimes) and thus much more reliable and accurate than some random website on the internet that contains information about religion even if it's a governmet source. Actually government sources are generally not used on Wikipedia. Here is one of the books that mentions that Ayyappan is worshipped mainly in Tamil Nadu and Kerala (http://books.google.co.in/books?id=xTJpU6NQ5B4C&pg=PA124&dq=ayyappan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eFqZU9vgAsanlAWVwoHoAQ&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q=ayyappan&f=false)
Also I wonder why do you want really insist so much on inserting Ayyappa's name. Do you in actual have any proof that Ayyapan is mentioned in the majority of the Sanskritic tex A person does not always have what he wishes on Wikipedia. Sometimes you just have to accept it and move on because that's how Wikipedia works.. MythoEditor (talk) 07:52, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
Namaskaram Mr MythoEditor, You said "A person does not always have what he wishes on Wikipedia. Sometimes you just have to accept it and move on because that's how Wikipedia works.,yes your correct but dont forget it will suit for you too.and dont forget you blocked recently moretimes.how kaali for west bangal similar likr Tamilnadu main god is karthick.yes tamils worship ayyappa too.Tamil worship vishnu,siva,even some where in tn bramma too.both vaishnava and siva bakthi movement start from Tamil speaking region of south india.i know you know history atleast.yes i am from that region.so better than you i know well.i hope you Can understand.dont forget wikipedia is reliable.Namaskaram Eshwar.omTalk tome 18:54, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
When I said person does not always have what he wishes on Wikipedia I wasn't intimidating you. I was just telling you it's not necessary that our edits will be accepted by the others and everything I said was in good faith. I already know Shiva and Vishnu and other goda are worshipped in Tamil Nadu. I'm an Indian too. But Ayappa is mostly worshipped in Kerala and Tamil Nadu but Ayyappa is not worshipped by North Indians. I too didn't want Ashoksundari article to be created since I thought she was a work of fiction. I started edit warring over it which I accept was wrong on my part. Later when I found out that theAshoksundari did exist in Padma Purana I myself endorsed the article about Ashoksundari not becauseof any fear because i had realized my mistake and I had even apologized for it.. But that was in the past so you should stop trying to say yo someone that they have been blocked especially when there comments and edits are in good faith. Now I ask you Eshwar.om do you have any proof that Ayyappa exists in the majority of Hindu scriptures like Kartikeya and Ganesha or any Sanskritic scripture? You don't and yet while you ask that others o prove their statement with proof you yourself are not providing any proof for your statement. It is disappointing that while you much are more experienced you are resorting to such double standards. MythoEditor (talk) 07:25, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
User:Eshwar.om I am not making fun of anything, I am simply stating the fact that the Indian government is not considered by Wikipedia to be a reliable source on this sort of religious matter. Our policy on sources is at WP:VERIFY and WP:RS. This doesn't mean that if they made a statement on a religious matter we wouldn't include it, just that we wouldn't see them as the deciding element. There was once an attempt to insist that Jayadeva was born in Odisha because there were state publications saying he was, but as that is disputed we simply made it clear that there was a dispute and did not accept the statement by the state government as fact. You are still a very new editor and like all new editors have a lot to learn about. At about 125,000 edits(a bit more than your 790) I am still learning. Dougweller (talk) 11:32, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Hi Dougweller,

i understand.thank you for your Explanation.Yes compare with you i am still a very new editor.At about 125,000 edits(a bit more than my 790) you are still learning.But i am start learning. You are always my Inspiration.Please Remember no Quesions on that.thank you.Eshwar.omTalk tome 03:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

@Eshwar.om: I recently got to this article and have read about this whole situation. Basically User:MythoEditor is right in saying that unless you yourself have a proof that a deity is worshipped in some place you cannot ask others provide a proof that they are not worshipped in that place since doing that is a double standard. Although we cannot explicitly mention in an article that the deity is not worshipped there however the lack of existence of proof of that deity being worshipped there can itself be somewhat taken that they are not worshipped there sometimes. Also remember that MythoEditor has already proved that Ayyappa is mostly worshipped in Tamil Nadu and Kerala. That means even if he might be worshipped by any other state his worship is very limited. I have read many scriptures of Hinduism and never have I once encountered the name of any other children of Shiva other tthan Kartikeya and Ganesha nor I have read anywhere that name of the "other children" of Shiva exists in the Sanskritic scriptures although I have read that Ashokasundari exists in Padma Purana. Adding Ayyappa's name is not only unjustified but also somewhat WP:UNDUE since it should only exist those children's names who are held to exist by a majority of scholars and are mentioned in the majority of Hiundu legends and scriptures. For example just because somebody says that Mahatama Gandhi had 5 children should we list a 5th child? No unless it can be proven that he in real has a 5th child we cannot even mention about this in his article. Similar is this case. I'm not saying that Ayyappa is a flase deity just that he is not mentioned in the majority of scriptures and Hindu legends. KahnJohn27 (talk) 12:13, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

i am sorry Mr KahnJohn27.What your saying? even siva s another son karthick is mostly worshipped in Tamil Nadu and also Kerala.Mainly in tamilnadu.so will you remove his name too from lead.Is that your telling?even karthick called God of Tamils.I hope you know those history and all.Eshwar.omTalk tome 18:58, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

@User:Eshwar.om Sorry for pinging you after so much time for this. Kartikeya is even worshipped in North India and is regarded as Shiva's son by maority of North Indians. However Ayyappa is neither worshipped nor his existence is regarded as true by North Indians. Ayyappa is only a god of South Indian Hindus. While Kartikeya is regarded as a son of Shiva by everyone. As simple as that. KahnJohn27 (talk) 12:56, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
hi kahn john any way you accepted Ayyappa is only a god of South Indian Hindus.my question is South india belongs to india or belongs to some others country?!Eshwar.omTalk tome 21:17, 9 March 2015 (UTC).

Article disimprovements

Can someone look at this and see if the changes are appropriate for a WP:GA. Much of it looks like barely understandable text to me. --NeilN talk to me 01:14, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, those are certainly POV, redundant, miplaced and misformatted edits. I have just not bothered to revert them for now since edit-warring with sock-farms and IPs is a unproductive exercise with some admins unfamiliar with the subject liable to treat it as content dispute and block "both" sides. Have requested the page to be semi-protected instead, and hopefully the SPI will be attended to soon.
As for the content issue: note that back in March when dealing with presumably the same user(s), I had edited the section content to reflect what the sources say about the association with Tamil word for 'red'. Goes without saying that if there is anything I missed, or additional reliable sources available, that can be discussed here on the talkpage. Abecedare (talk) 01:27, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
Abecedare, unfortunately with Salvidrim! fully protecting, we now have that stuff stuck in a good article for the next 7 days. Wait until the WP:SPI is done and then do an edit request? --NeilN talk to me 02:54, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for putting the article back to a stable version Salvidrim!. --NeilN talk to me 03:03, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Salvidrim!, thank you for intervening, but is full protection really necessary? I wanted to do some copyediting and now I can't... Isn't semi-protection enough now that the POV pushers and their sockpuppets have been blocked? QVVERTYVS (hm?) 13:36, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

"The root word √śi"

I've never before seen etymologies denoting roots with the sign √, but the section Shiva#Etymology and other names does. Shall we remove it? It seems to be a idiosyncrasy of sanskritdictionary.com and it looks strange to me. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 18:35, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

That was probably added by me, and while I believe I have seen the root symbol used for Root (linguistics) elsewhere, that might just be a false memory/confirmation bias on my part. In any case, the symbol is unimportant on this page and I am fine with its removal. Abecedare (talk) 18:47, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Shiva in Africa

I was wondering why it is not mentioned that Shiva is also worshiped as an ancient African deity, known by many appellations. For example, Amongst the Vodoun tradition of West Africa, he is worshiped in his great hunter/warrior aspects. Many devotees are actually born with this deity, and must have ceremony. Prior to the introduction of Mohammedan Islam and Christianity, the lingham, Yoni and serpent worshiping cults were once pervasive all throughout ancient Africa. Some African traditional mythology states that Shiva was actually Osiris, and that his hair was originally in matted locs. Pravati/Saraswati was a manifestation of Isis, and that both of their worship was introduced into India by the ancient Kalamukhas who originated out of Ethiopia, Egypt and Somali. What is certain, is that his worship was the same in both Africa and India. This observation was noted by a quote in Godfrey Higgins Anacalypsis Vo I. pg. 57, where he states: "It is a well known fact . . . Hindu soldiers when they arrived in Egypt . . . recognized the Gods of their country in the ancient temple, particularly their God Krishna." There are other noted similarities too numerous to name. My point is that an entire ancient spiritual and cultural history of Shiva's origins in ancient Africa before his acceptance into Hinduism should also be a part of this article.2602:306:25E0:5479:FD1B:CA69:A92F:ACFE (talk) 16:38, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources for your assertions? --NeilN talk to me 20:18, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Serpent-worshiping cults and religions, along with cults and religions that use male genitalia as religious symbals have been found throughout the world. Current evidence very strongly suggests, if not blatantly outright demonstrates that the vast majority of these cults arose and evolved without any influence from devotees of Shiva or Hindu missionaries. For example, I strongly doubt that the Roman god Priapus, or the Aztec god Quetzalcoatl have anything in common with Shiva. That, and can you provide a quote of that passage with the ellipses filled in?--Mr Fink (talk) 20:31, 11 May 2015 (UTC)