Jump to content

Talk:Sufi lodge

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Talk

[edit]

following the note on "my talk", i would like to mention that the link i had provided was directed to a gallery dedicated to Haruniyeh, an example of Khanqah's In iran, i thought it was not a non-related link so i added it to the external links section :) Aryobarzan 15:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In search of Truth

[edit]

This book presents a story of the sincere search for the true religion and the divine guidance, which led to the ultimate destination. Hazrat Moulana Yunus Patel Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) narrated this incident, presenting detail and explanation in the lessons derived.

The discourse leaves one with deep appreciation for the tremendous bounties of Imaan and Islam and the great fortune of being followers of Nabi Muhammad (sallalllahu alaihi wasallam).

This book was completed during Hazrat Moulana's lifetime in Muharram 1424 (March 2003) and also includes a few complementary extracts from another talk of Hazrat Moulana (rahmatullahi alaihi)

Download book Now (Right click and "save target as" to download)

Authentic Khanqah Means

[edit]

Books In English Regarding Khanqah In French Regarding Khanqah

Books In Urdu Regarding Khanqah

About Khanqah

Khanqah is the spiritual center providing a facility for Islah-e-Nafs (Self Correction).

Following the traditions of the Ehl-e-Haq (Truth Bearers), Khanqah revives the rare traditions of Sulook, Tazkia, & Tasawwuf while staying clear of all kinds of Bidda’hs (innovations in the religion) and complies strictly with the rules and boundaries prescribed by the Sharia.

Following are the Addressess of True Khanqah Where we can purify our Heart:

1. Pakistan 

                   a. Hazrat Maulana Hakeem Akhtar sahb ra http://www.khanqah.org/ 
                   b. Hazrat Syed Ishrat Jameel Meer Sb db http://www.hazratmeersahib.com/
                   c. Hazrat Feroz Memon sb db https://hazratferozmemon.org/
                   d. Hazrat Kamal Uddin Siddiqui sb db http://www.khanqahakhtar.com

2. South Africa 

                  a.  Hazrat Maulana Yunus Patel sb ra and his Son http://yunuspatel.co.za/ and
                       http://www.khanqah.co.za/ 
                  b.  Hazrat Maulana Abdul Hamid Saheb db  http://www.ka.org.za

Khanqah at Darul Uloom Azaadville,Johannesburg, South Africa.

3. Bangladesh 

                  a.  Hazrat Maulana Shah Abdul Mateen sb db http://khanqahbd.com/

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Khadimeshiekh (talk • contribs) 12:42, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: History of the Medieval Middle East in 100 Objects Fall 2022

[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2022 and 5 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): MellowFig, Venusinfurrz, Ml4702, Jtn2265 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Jtn2265 (talk) 01:18, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by BlueMoonset (talk) 01:53, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Article insufficiently expanded, nominator was from a class that ended two weeks ago, and has not responded nor edited the article since before then. Closing as unsuccessful.

(
)
  • ... that Saladin founded the first khanqah in Cairo? Source: Hofer, Nathan (2015). The popularisation of Sufism in Ayyubid and Mamluk Egypt, 1173-1325. Edinburgh. ISBN 978-0-7486-9422-8. OCLC 919188147.
    • Reviewed:

5x expanded by MellowFig (talk), Ml4702 (talk), and Venusinfurrz (talk). Nominated by MellowFig (talk) at 19:45, 5 December 2022 (UTC).[reply]

Takya and content-forking over terminology

[edit]

The topic of Sufi institutions on Wikipedia is getting confused and fragmented. As of April 2024, we now have a new WP:CONTENTFORK with the conversion of Takya, previously a redirect here, into another article about effectively the same thing but with a different title, covering some areas but not others, as this article also does. That's in addition to Takyeh, Zawiya, Dargah, and others (though at least the first two are more focused on specific regions). The differences in practices and functions of these institutions vary based on period/region/tariqa; the use of different terms does not necessarily denote a different function, certainly not in a consistent way across the Islamic world. Since this is a global English encyclopedia, not a regional reference, different non-English terms do not necessarily correspond to different topics here, as Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Aside from the POV problems and content forks it creates, it also makes it impractical for readers and editors to find the correct link to the article they need.

As this is the older article by far, Takya should be merged back here and we should instead consider moving this article to use a more inclusive title (probably more descriptive and in English), with the native terminology then explained separately and other articles dealing with subtopics for particular regions, periods, tariqas, etc. R Prazeres (talk) 18:51, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think takya deserves its own article, like other Islamic institutions: khanqah, zawiya, dargah, imaret, külliye, madrasa etc. They all have distinct origins and histories. Most reliable sources establish a distinction in time, location and usage between khanqahs and takyas including the Turkish-language İslâm Ansiklopedisi which has separate articles for “Hankah” and “Tekke”. They hardly look like dictionary entries or “content forking”. The Arabic Wikipedia also has distinct articles on takya (تكية) and khanqah (خانقاه). The history of Ottoman takyas is not covered in the article khanqah and for good reason since they were not called nor conceived like the Ayyubid and Mamluk khanqahs. The same with the Iranian takyas which do not have anything to do with khanqahs, and the same also with the takiyyas / soup kitchens in the modern Arab world. Auteuil-Passy (talk) 20:00, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That not really correct: these are not functionally distinct institutions on a global scale, they are very closely related in meaning and share the same fundamental purpose (i.e. the Sufi institutions, not things like madrasa). I also see nothing supporting the claim that they have different "origins". The current lead of Takya already says as much: "takyas functioned much like khanqahs", and then it goes on to go over a dictionary-style review of the word's usage by region, which is not what Wikipedia articles are supposed to be.
More general and/or English sources do not support such a broad distinction between "Takya" vs "Khanqah" across the Islamic world; quite the opposite. English references commonly use terms like Sufi lodge/convent/etc for such institutions and use terms like Khanqah, Tekke, etc when discussing the local context. The Encyclopaedia of Islam, for example, explains it plainly ([1], see also the 2nd edition whose two relevant entries begin with similar comments: [2], [3]):

Khānaqāh (or khānqāh) is a Persian word for the place where Muslim mystics gather. It was, and still is, used mainly in Iran, Afghanistan, Central Asia, western China, and the Indian subcontinent. Other terms were more common elsewhere, such as zāwiya in Arab lands, Africa, and Indonesia, and tekke in Turkey and the Balkans. All these terms are often interchangeable. Usually translated as “Ṣūfī lodge” (rather than “convent”) in English, the khānaqāh is a room or an establishment where Ṣūfīs assemble around a spiritual master to perform rituals (often by night or in darkness) and to share meals, to communicate with one another, and to follow spiritual teachings.

My point is articles can exist about further variations of the Sufi lodge or about specific regions (e.g. Tekke should really be an article about the Ottoman version, as Zawiya should focus on North Africa); but for WP:SUMMARYSTYLE purposes there must be a main overview article for Sufi lodges, which until now was this article. For this purpose, the current title here, "khanqah", is also insufficient, as the recurring confusion and POV divergences demonstrate. R Prazeres (talk) 20:40, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I see what you mean. I would support renaming this article “Sufi lodge”, this way the regional variations may be treated with the most appropriate words which were used locally and during the epoch. Takya could be merged with takya (disambiguation)) like: takya or takiyya may refer to
•a Sufi lodge, especially in the Ottoman Empire (Turkish: tekye/tekke; Arabic: takiyya), in pre-Safavid Iran and in South Asia (takya)
•in South Asia also, a cemetery for Sufis
•in Iran since the Safavids, a takyeh
•in the modern Arab world, a soup kitchen (takiyya) Auteuil-Passy (talk) 21:20, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for reading all that and reconsidering. I agree, renaming this to "Sufi lodge" seems fairly simple. We can then include all material that offers a general overview of specific variations, with each section linking (as needed) to other articles expanding on the topic. And your proposal for updating Takya (disambiguation) looks great.
My next suggestion was to create a WP:RM for a renaming to "Sufi lodge", also explicitly proposing that it be an overview article, as explained above. Does this sound reasonable to you? R Prazeres (talk) 21:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, totally! Thank you. Auteuil-Passy (talk) 21:35, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, thanks again. I'll try to do ĩt later tonight or tomorrow. R Prazeres (talk) 21:37, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PS: I haven't forgotten about this, I've just been very busy and will do the RM as soon as I can. R Prazeres (talk) 20:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Auteuil-Passy: thank you for handling the post-move updates. I'm a little busy elsewhere at the moment, but let me know if there's anything specific I can help with. I'll try to have a general look at the article in the future, but it seems you've handled all the immediate needs. Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 18:06, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 June 2024

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 06:22, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Khanqah → Sufi lodge – Per WP:USEENGLISH and for a more inclusive title that reduces confusion. Recapping what was discussed in the thread above:
Until now, this article has been the main overview article for Sufi religious institutions/venues. There are various terms used in Arabic/Persian/Turkish/etc for this type of institution, with the choice varying roughly by region. This is explained in the article already ("Etymology" section) and also conveniently in the equivalent entry of the Encyclopedia of Islam, Three ([4]):

Khānaqāh (or khānqāh) is a Persian word for the place where Muslim mystics gather. It was, and still is, used mainly in Iran, Afghanistan, Central Asia, western China, and the Indian subcontinent. Other terms were more common elsewhere, such as zāwiya in Arab lands, Africa, and Indonesia, and tekke in Turkey and the Balkans. All these terms are often interchangeable. Usually translated as “Ṣūfī lodge” (rather than “convent”) in English, the khānaqāh is a room or an establishment where Ṣūfīs assemble around a spiritual master to perform rituals (often by night or in darkness) and to share meals, to communicate with one another, and to follow spiritual teachings.

While the term "khanqah" is one of the most common terms for this type of place, it is not used in all regions, and in some regions the different terms may also have slightly different meanings. This has led to confusion on more than one occasion over this article's scope, over which title editors should link in other articles, etc.

Changing to an English term, which is more generic, would avoid this problem and make the title a little more neutral, in addition to being easier for unfamiliar English readers. As the source above indicates, "Sufi lodge" is the favored English term. An ngram of the most common English variants seems to confirm this. The various non-English terms should redirect here (as most already do) or, where appropriate, can be turned into subtopic articles for more specific types of Sufi institutions or for specific regions (e.g. like Zawiya (institution), Dargah). R Prazeres (talk) 07:06, 2 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 09:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong support per all of the above. Also compare Buddhist temple, which uses an English translation instead of one regional or historical name: vihara, chaitya, stupa, wat, pagoda, tera, candi… At present, the content for an article about Sufi lodges is split between khanqah, zawiya (institution), ribat, dargah and takya (the latter which I created, wrongly thinking that every regional name should have their own article). To prevent further/future content splitting, I believe it would be best to use the most common English translation, “Sufi lodge”, and centralize all the information in this article (which currently lacks coverage of North African Sufi lodges – regionally called zawiya or ribat in Arabic – and Ottoman Sufi lodges – historically called tekye/tekke in Turkish). Auteuil-Passy (talk) 07:26, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can I ask why, if lodge is such a common translation, that word is not used even a single time in this article? VR (Please ping on reply) 02:47, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Because, like many Wikipedia articles, this one needs improvement. I think nearly all the common English translations are absent in this article, despite being easy to find in reliable sources, including those cited in the article (e.g. the Iranica entry says much of the same). R Prazeres (talk) 03:00, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I can confirm as well that “Sufi lodge” is the most common translation found in literature on the subject. Also note that someone created a redirect “Sufi Lodge” to this page years ago, albeit with wrong capitalization. Auteuil-Passy (talk) 08:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Sufi_lodge&oldid=1229958336"