Talk:Trams in Zagreb

Croatia: Zagreb Mid‑importance

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opinion

This entry is redundant, I can't understand why was it separated from the Zagrebački električni tramvaj article. It should be merged back with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.136.230.209 (talk) 07:54, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Zagrebacki elektricni tramvaj is the company that runs this. This article is about the tram system itself. Many tram systems have their separate pages. (LAz17 (talk) 20:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

I dont's see any need for template {{Urban Rail transportation in the former Yugoslavia}}. I dont see why is this template usefull. --Ex13 (talk) 08:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Move article to "Trams in Zagreb"?

The title of this article has become rather "non-standard" for English-language Wikipedia. Articles on metropolitan tram systems tend to have a "Trams in [city]" title - for example: Trams in Vienna, Trams in Prague, Trams in Moscow, Trams in Berlin, Trams in Brussels, etc.

I will also note that the current naming scheme for this page is bad, as it implies "Zagreb Tramway" is the "official" accepted name for this system, and it surely is not. (See: WP:COMMONNAME, for example...) It also implies "Tramway" is a proper noun in this context which, again, it isn't.

If there are no objections lodged here, I intend to "move" this article to "Trams in Zagreb" in the near future. I realize this issue was quite contentious back in 2009-2010, and as a result a "move" of this page is going to require the help of an administrator. So if anyone has issues with this, or other comments, please post them here. --IJBall (talk) 20:48, 23 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I had a quick look around and found that most of the articles you mention have "X tramway network" in their lead sections, several of their titles were normalized this same way by User:Bahnfrend, and these articles by and large aren't particularly popular. So this local consensus is easily swayed in the topic area. Yet, this simple variant is still probably safe. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 22:29, 23 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Two points: a scan of List of tram and light rail transit systems would indicate that "Trams in [city]" is fairly prevalent (outside of the French tram systems), and becoming more so, especially for the tram systems in the major metropolitan areas (e.g. Berlin, Moscow, etc) that have been operational for a century or more (a category Zagreb falls in to!). Second, even if the consensus here is away from going to "Trams in Zagreb" (and the reason for doing so is to standardize, as so to make it easier for people to search for articles on this general topic), this article's name seems to me to violate Wikipedia policy, especially re: MOS:PN and also perhaps WP:COMMONNAME. – In other words, the title of this page is implying that "Zagreb Tramway" is the primary name by which this system is called in English, and that it is a proper name, neither of which I think can be claimed to be true.

Thus, even if this article's name isn't changed to "Trams in Zagreb", it will still need to be changed to something else, such as "Zagreb tramway" (small "t") at a minimum, or perhaps to "Zagreb tram" (that'd be my second preference after "Trams in Zagreb") or "Zagreb tram system". In any case, the fight over the naming conventions for the tram articles appears to go back at least half a decade, and while I myself may not care for the present solution, "Trams in [city]" seems to be the evolving standard and switching most of these articles to that naming format would seem to be desirable, unless a strong counterargument can be made on WP:COMMONNAME grounds. In any case, no move on this front will be made by me for a while, as I would like to see if there is more comment (esp. in regards to this article's current name being in (soft) violation of Wikipedia's MOS, as I think it is...) --IJBall (talk) 22:56, 23 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No obvious reason to wait, feel free to be bold. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 00:18, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For relatively "big moves", I feel it's better to wait and build consensus, so I'd rather work towards that. I'm actually not necessarily married to the "Trams in Zagreb" option, for example – if people here would prefer "Zagreb tram" instead, I think that would be an OK solution. If we can't forge one "universal" naming scheme for these tram articles, then two schemes (e.g. "Trams in [city]", and "[City] tram" – e.g. Helsinki tram) is the next best option... So I'd like to see if others have opinions on this before proceeding to "bold". Thanks for responding, though! - I'd rather hear from regular editors of these pages than not. --IJBall (talk) 00:58, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I'm saying - it's just not a relatively big move :) the "regular editors" here are practically non-existent. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:31, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, and understood. But because this particular page move is going to require Administrator assistance, I should probably wait a week for comment, before proceeding to request the page move from an Administrator. --IJBall (talk) 13:32, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought, it looks like requesting a move may come with a Discussion section anyway, so I guess I will give that a shot, further down this page. --IJBall (talk) 13:38, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I support IJBall's proposed move. The naming convention "Trams in [name of city]" for articles in this series dates back to before I became an editor nearly five years ago. The articles I have been creating in the series generally begin with "The [name of city] tramway network" or "The [name of city] tramway" (if it's just a single line rather than a network) because the articles in the series are about the network operations as a whole, not just the rolling stock. If I had been starting the series from scratch, I might have named the articles "Tram transport in [name of city]", but that style of naming sounds a bit contrived to me, and in any case "Trams in [name of city]" was already well entrenched by the time I started editing, and it is close enough to convey the general idea. Bahnfrend (talk) 05:18, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 24 June 2014

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 07:52, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Zagreb Tramway → Trams in Zagreb – Two reasons: 1) the current title of this page seems to violate MOS:PN and WP:COMMONNAME by implying that "Zagreb Tramway" is the primary name by which this system is called in English, and that it is a proper name, neither of which can really be claimed to be true; 2) the evolving naming "standard" for articles on long-standing metropolitan tram systems has recently tended to a "Trams in [city]" – e.g. "Trams in Zagreb" – format. IJBall (talk) 13:44, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Support per nom. Alternatively Zagreb tramway would fix the problem of the made-up proper-looking name. Dicklyon (talk) 05:44, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As I said above, the name Trams in Zagreb is not really controversial. Similarly, Zagreb tram and Zagreb tram system can also work. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:21, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Red Slash 00:07, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Comment. As stated on Talk page above, if "Trams in Zagreb" is not a good consensus solution, I think "Zagreb tram" is the next best choice, as there are some tram articles (e.g. Helsinki tram) that use this naming format. "Zagreb tramway" (small "t") would be the third best option, as most of the French tram system articles seem to use that naming scheme. --IJBall (talk) 12:51, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.