Talk:Tsurutaro Kataoka

Requested move to Tsurutaro

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Tsurutarō Kataoka → Tsurutaro Kataoka – - this person's official website uses the form Tsurutaro, see [1] where it is written in his own handwriting without a macron. Under WP:JATITLE, "Use the form personally or professionally used by the person (such as on their official website or official social media profile), if available in the English/Latin alphabet" the page should be at Tsurutaro. JoshuSasori (talk) 13:20, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

• Support. As per WP:JATITLE, if that is how he renders his name, then that is how we should present it here. --DAJF (talk) 06:52, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
• Support self-identification, which also happens to conform with standard English usage (how reliable sources would render the name if he were extremely notable). Shrigley (talk) 19:17, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Comment We don't use "reliable sources" for the spellings of Japanese people's names. If the person doesn't have a personal preference, then where possible we use encyclopedic sources (not newspapers, boxing magazines, etc.), which usually have their own standards on romanization. Hence, for instance, the recent move of Sei Itō. Note I am not "opposing" this move, just commenting that the above support vote seems to be misinformed. elvenscout742 (talk) 01:24, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose. Because most Japanese do not think seriously and try to write it precisely when they romanize their name. Long vowels are recognizable by native speakers and people who understand ja, but not non-speakers. I was the one before I came here. But WP is an encyclopedia and we should use macron. JoshuSasori, when I first saw your name, it took me a while to know that Joshu was 女囚. Though a native speaker, I first thought it as Josh or 助手. Oda Mari (talk) 08:18, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

So you think Wikipedia should not reflect the sources, but actually take on the function of teaching people how to write correctly? JoshuSasori (talk) 08:34, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think we should follow the modified Hepburn romanization as that's the way en:WP selected to use. If not, it would be meaningless that en:WP has adopted it. As I pointed out at the Project talk page, how do we tell readers the difference between 大野 and 小野 without macron? As for romanized names, I think sources are not helpful because native ja speakers are very sloppy about romanization and it's tiresome and not easy to type vowels with macron. Oda Mari (talk) 14:57, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Readers can always see how the name should be pronounced from the "Nihongo" template on the first line of the article, as has always been the case. In the case of this article, it would become "Tsurutaro Kataoka (片岡 鶴太郎, Kataoka Tsurutarō)", so everyone should be happy. Also, about it being "tiresome" for Japanese speakers to type vowels with a macron, maybe that's true, but the subject of this particular article actually hand wrote his name on his own website (he is also an artist), so I'm afraid that's also a non-argument here. --DAJF (talk) 15:14, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

-----

As DAJF says the problem of pronunciation is covered by the use of Japanese text and romanization for pronunciation. However, let me say my case. I'll try to make it short. Wikipedia has many people with a variety of opinions. For example, there are probably people who think Turutarô is the correct romanization. One highly-respected academic thinks Tsurutarou is best. If we take on the job of teaching people how things should be, then there is huge potential for conflict of opinions, which we can never resolve, and arguments go on and on. So we need to pick which way to do it. The Wikipedia way is to use the sources. Because it is a person's name, the person themself is the most reliable source of how to write it. It's possible that they misspell their own name, or something, but unless there is clear evidence of mental incompetence, the person's own choice is the thing to use. Otherwise it is like Wikipedia is saying "Look, you lazy Japanese idiot, here is how you should write your own name, not the way you said". Oda Mari's way is not a good one. JoshuSasori (talk) 23:59, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.