Talk:Vladimir Prelog

Swiss and Croatian

Ethnicity and Nationality are two different things. Sometime they coincide, other times don't. In this case we have a ethnic Croatian born in Bosnia (but this fact is truly marginal) that obtained the Nobel Price in 1975, i.e. 20 years after he had already obtained the Swiss nationality. Also most of the work he carried out to get the Nobel Prize was made in Zurich. It could be fair to consider him a Swiss organic chemist of Croatian ethnicity. But here the issue is more complex because he kept the Yugoslavian passport (that later would have become a Croatian passport) and also he made part of his academical life in Croatia, so this country contributed to this future Nobel Prize. Well clearly he is a Swiss-Croatian for the purpose of this article. --Silvio1973 (talk) 11:28, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Following your analogy, Guglielmo Marconi isn't purely an "Italian" inventor, but can easily be considered as an American-British-Italian, for instance. Other than that, I somewhat agree with the comment and the edit, but feel that people are subtly imposing double standards here.

I don't know where is the double standard. Marconi was born Italian, refused to acquire the British nationality, was a member of the Italian Senate and on top of that a fervid Fascist (not very honorable thing for a person of such intellect). In the case of Prelog can we ignore that we got the Nobel Prize 20 years after he obtained the Swiss nationality (that he requested) and that he obtained the Nobel for the work he did in Switzerland with Swiss funding. On the other hand ignoring his ethnicity, his nationality and the country that recognised his genius and funded the beginning of his academical career would be unfair and historically incorrect. --Silvio1973 (talk) 14:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Eh, fine then. If you say so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Er-vet-en (talk • contribs) 4 December 2012‎

I strongly disagree with Scrosby85 that person's birthplace is "truly marginal". Birthplace, where we grow up and go to school, shape our personality and many of (dis)likes, including choices we make as we go through life. This is a fact so I hope no one will ask me for a reliable reference; I'm sure there are thousands though. Also, I propose that Prelog's ethnicity be replaced with his nationality, like for other Nobel laureates, thus Yugoslav-Swiss. For example, Yugoslavia was a composite-nation like Switzerland, and we don't say "a German" for a Nobel laureate who is/was an ethnic-German with Swiss passport. Sevvyan (talk) 19:06, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Sevvyan i don't know why you make big deal about it..Yes he was born in Bosnia but he attended school and University in Zagreb and was a lecturer of organic chemistry in Zagreb.And also he was buried in Zagreb cemetery called Mirogoj..So i don't know what is your point.I even don't see the need to put in the first sentence that he was "born and grew up in Sarajevo" when it is mentioned in infobox where he is born.It was not me who put that he was "Croatian-Swiss"...At first it stood just "Croatian".Then "Croatian-Swiss".Never Yugoslaw Scrosby85 (talk) 00:12, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Why do you call my suggestion that a standard bio be used, "a big deal"? It's perfectly normal to state both the person's date and place of birth in the bio article's lead. As to Yugoslav nationality: since you don't know, Prelog was a Yugoslav patriot, a loyal subject to his king, and a naval officer on board an HM Submarine. Sevvyan (talk) 16:25, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Sevvyan (talk) It is mentioned in the lead article that he was born in Sarajevo and then again in first section "Early life".There is no need to mention it two times in such a short lapse.You are often involved in Edit war so i would be careful :) Scrosby85 (talk) 18:38, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

He states the obvious. Since when does who matter more than what? 185.13.240.56 (talk) 13:48, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Bosnian

67.248.128.225 (talk · contribs) wrote:

For the third time I have to correct this nationalistic purposely placed mistake. Vladimir Prelog is not from Croatia he cannot be a Croatian. Please explain to me how he is from Croatia inorder to be Croatian?. He is from Bosnia and thus a Bosnian Croat.

This user is failing to comprehend the existing several sentences in the article that explain how he wasn't actually part of an autochthonous group called the Bosnian Croats. I've warned them once already to avoid breaking WP:ARBMAC - calling stuff nationalistic when it's based in referenced facts isn't helpful at all. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 15:05, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I am following the situation myself as well. He also fails to comprehend that the group called 'Bosnian Croats' are in fact part of the Croatian nation, not a separate nation. Thus even if he (Prelog) was a 'Bosnian Croat' (which he wasn't) the moment he emigrated to a third country he is simply just a Croat. Besides his changes are also completely opposite of WP:OPENPARA. Shokatz (talk) 17:11, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

The last link posted by the anonymous is http://www.evi.com/q/facts_about__vladimir_prelog, which explicitly says "Bosnian Croat", but there's no obvious explanation why that would be a reliable source. It looks more like a web site automatically generated from Wikipedia. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 10:34, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

User 67.248.128.225 fails to understand that a location of birth is absolutely unrelevant in this case. Beside this the issue is of sourcing. I think the user should be blocked if continues to edit warring. --Silvio1973 (talk) 14:04, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

He is not Bosnian! Read the article, his parents were Croats (and not Bosnian Croats, but Croats from Croatia) who were simply working in Sarajevo at the time when Vladimir was born. They moved back to Croatia when Vladimir was 8, so I don't think there is any grounds for him to be considered a Bosnian or a Bosnian Croat - he was only born in Bosnia. Xzpx (talk) 15:07, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

He was a Bosnian by birthplace, and even more importantly by the fact that he was proud of his Bosnian origin. So much so in fact, that he began his Nobel autobiography/address with "I was born on July 23rd, 1906 in Sarajevo in the province of Bosnia..." Therefore, he's more a Bosnian than a Croat - according to his own words. Any suggestions how to implement this in the article? I already added his birthplace in the lead, it was rather bizarre to see a lead in a bio article without both the birth date and birthplace. Sevvyan (talk) 19:17, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 14 June 2020

Rollback to prior page before Notrium. Tesla didn‘t have a Serbian citizenship, but is still considered a Serb. DaZürisee (talk) 12:30, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Please see (as in my edit summary) WP:ETHNICITY, also please familiarize yourself with the concepts of ethnicity and nationality if necessary.  Not done: Notrium (talk) 12:36, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Vladimir Prelog was born and raised in Sarajevo. If I know my geography, Sarajevo is still in Bosnia-Herzegovina and that makes him Bosnian. So please correct the webpage. 100.1.65.36 (talk) 21:08, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

To IP user from June 2023: Wrong on several points (and I am adding another source for citations to the article).

• As well shown in infobox, he was born in Sarajevo, Condominium of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy, but at that time there was no Bosnia-Herzegovina country. There was just an area where Turkish empire was recently driven of, and Monarchy was occupying it (and Serbia was opposing it's annexation).
• Bosnia, Herzegovina, and regions to the north of that (Croatia and Slovenia, and current Austria too) were organized to Krajine, marks, with intention of organized defence against (not so recent) pressure from Turkish empire. A lot of those territories was settled with people, who were withdrawing from Turkish pressure. Such places were Bela Krajina in Slovenia (a lot of ethnic Serbs, or possible even Montennegrins (like in Lika)), so a lot of mixing was around. Ethnic Serbs were doing their best to intermarry within ethnicity (going from Bela Krajina to Lika, Krajina, Kordun etc.) to find brides of the same ethnicity and probably the same (ortodox) faith.
• If you say he was Bosnian, because that are was decades later Bosnia-Herzegovina, it would be linguistically equally possible he was Herzegovian (Hercegovac)...

As a lot of wikipedians might not know, people working in service of the Monarchy (KuK) there, could, and would be moved around as needed. My grandfather had a Polish family name, was born in then Bukovina in Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy in a place that is now some tens of km-s in Ukraine; when he was honorably dismissed after serving in the the army he had the right to apply for a job at KuK (state) railway; as that, he was relocated to Slovenia, where he married, had children, died and was buried. I had no opportunity to ask about his ethnicity (my father relocated to Swiss about 1955, when I was four), my mother and kids stayed in Slovenia and when I grew up to get interested about that part of roots, I was too late. Lately I inherited some of his papers, so I might find (and add) some more info. And all those things can matter: if there are still my relatives in Ukraine, and would want to grow up and get educated in Polish, they would probably have problems, and possibly emigrate.

In Prelog's case, his father, Milan, an outstanding historian and university professor from Croatian part of the Monarchy, was at the time sent to Sarajevo to teach history at Gymnasium there, and returned to Croatia when first World War started, when young Prelog was 11. So Prelog spent his infancy in Sarajevo, spent larger part of is youth in Zagreb, two years in Osijek (where his excellent chemistry teacher had a deciding influence forming his interest and enthusiasm for the subject). I suppose reasons for some of those relocations of young Vladimir were also decrees that moved his father (with family) to new posts, but I need sources to confirm before writing that in the article.

To conclude

those that are sure that they know their geography, hold your horses (or motorbikes...) and take your time to familiarize with a bit of history too. As some people above already pretty kindly wrote, it was what Vladimir Prelog experienced, and as a grown up felt he was, that was meaningful. If his achievements were only the result of where he was born, that would be that, but we see that was not true.

And I added a new source for citations, and added some contents based both on old and new source, mostly about his youth up to now. Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 19:18, 15 September 2024 (UTC)