Talk:Yan (state)

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What can be done about Tian Shan? There already exists an article about the Tian Shan mountain-range and there is no disambiguation and no article about the individual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 03:27, 26 July 2006

Predecessor States[edit]

The Chinese wiki list many of the predeccesor names of the State of Yan including Northern Yan.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 18:55, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Sources for article expansion[edit]

A king list with dates here. — LlywelynII 15:05, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Chen (state) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 22:59, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Kingdom or Principality[edit]

Hi this article here Prince of Yan refers to the rulers of Yan during the Zhou dynasty till 222BC as being rule by a King. These explanations of types of state indicate the following:

  • Kingdom is a state ruled by a King or Queen) is a form of government in which sovereignty is actually or nominally embodied in a single individual (the monarch). Forms of monarchy differ widely based on the level of legal autonomy the monarch holds in governance, the method of selection of the monarch, and any predetermined limits on the length of their tenure. When the monarch has no or few legal restraints in state and political matters, it is called an absolute monarchy and is a form of autocracy.
  • A Principality (or Princedom) can either be a monarchical feudatory or a sovereign state, ruled or reigned over by a monarch with the title of prince or by a monarch with another title within the generic use of the term prince. Most of these states have historically been a polity, but in some occasions were rather territories in respect of which a princely style is held. The prince's estate and wealth may be located mainly or wholly outside the geographical confines of the principality
  • A Marquisate or ,March' is a territory, fief, or domain ruled by a Marquis or marchioness .Some historic marquisate's were sovereign in areas that would become unified realms,others were subordinate districts of those kingdoms that unified either partially or completely during the ancient era
  • A Dukedom or ,duchy' is a territory, fief, or domain ruled by a duke or duchess.Some historic duchies were sovereign in areas that would become unified realms,others were subordinate districts of those kingdoms that unified either partially or completely during the ancient era
  • My understanding is that the Prince of Yan is a title similar to the Prince of Wales normally bestowed on the first son of a ruling monarch/King/Emperor.

If it is a Principality it cannot be a Dukedom or Marquisate at the same time that makes no sense. So what it is?--Navops47 (talk) 08:57, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

@Navops47:, Hi there and thanks for the interesting comments. What these states were in the Western sense has always been a tough call –primarily because historians tried to graft a Western title onto a Chinese one that had no real equivalent. For example, the orders of nobility are purely artificial - there was a discussion somewhere ages ago when the conclusion was that "子" did not mean Viscount. That's why I changed it to Autocracy to stimulate a discussion. I'm going to ping Zanhe and Rincewind42 to solicit their views. Best, ► Philg88 ◄ talk 09:48, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
All of these definitions are Western concepts of government out of the European middle ages and have absolutely no meaning when describing events in Ancient times, let alone in a country as distant as China. The state of Yan wasn't any of the above titles. You can't put round pegs in square holes if what your holding isn't even a peg. Rincewind42 (talk) 14:20, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
@Navops47:, Philg88 and Rincewind42 are right. (Love the usernames of the three of you. Any suggestion for an auspicious two-digit number to go with my username? :-) In the ancient Zhou dynasty, the titles Gong, Hou, Bo were used more or less interchangeably, all meaning ruler (Bo originally means the eldest -> head of the clan -> head of state). Later the meanings of the words changed, and Gong became higher ranked than Hou, which was higher than Bo. When Westerners such as James Legge first translated Chinese historical texts to English, they found that Chinese titles matched neatly with Western ones such as Duke (Gong), Marquis (Hou), Count (Bo), Viscount (Zi) etc., which has become the convention. However, many modern scholarly texts such as the Cambridge History of Ancient China choose to use the original Chinese titles. I think the government type should be changed back to Monarchy, which is more precise than Autocracy. -Zanhe (talk) 14:59, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
To Navops47, Rincewind42 and Zanhe: Thanks for the input. Since we're stuck without a peg as Rincewind42 so eloquently puts it, the article has to have some classifier so I'm going to revert to Navops47's version using "Kingdom/Principality". I don't want to use "Monarchy", as someone in the future will undoubtedly add an infobox claiming "part of a series of articles on [Western implied] Monarchy", which it isn't. ► Philg88 ◄ talk 06:09, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

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