Template:Did you know nominations/Atiq Mosque (Awjila)

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Round symbols for illustrating comments about the DYK nomination The following is an archived discussion of Atiq Mosque (Awjila)'s DYK nomination. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page; such as this archived nomination"s (talk) page, the nominated article's (talk) page, or the Did you knowDYK comment symbol (talk) page. Unless there is consensus to re-open the archived discussion here. No further edits should be made to this page. See the talk page guidelines for (more) information.

The result was: promoted by PanydThe muffin is not subtle 21:19, 17 April 2013 (UTC).

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Atiq Mosque (Awjila)[edit]

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The Mosque of Atiq at Awjila

Created by Nvvchar (talk), Rosiestep (talk), Dr. Blofeld (talk). Nominated by Nvvchar (talk) at 02:26, 11 March 2013 (UTC).

  • New article just sneaks through with 1,528 characters. QPQ done. Image is free and looks fine. Hook is interesting, under 200 characters and ref 1 supporting the fact is reliable. Looks good to go! —Bloom6132 (talk) 14:31, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
  • There are a number of significant problems with this nomination (and, by extension, the article). First, the hook says the mosque is dated to the 5th century; the article had claimed the 5th century but yesterday was changed by another editor to the 7th century, since Muhammed wasn't even born until late in the 6th century. Second, there is no information in the article's given sources that I can find that actually states that this particular mosque is from the 7th century. (FN1 gives that date to the mausoleum, not the mosque.) The first several sentences of the History section are sourced to FN4, which appears to be a commercial translating service, and makes me wonder why it is considered a reliable source. I'm also dubious about how closely the article matches the structure of that source, though it needs a good copyedit, and there is also some close paraphrasing—compare, for instance, the source's "Arab rule allowed prosperity to return to the regions that had since been in decline" with the article's "their rule, allowing prosperity to return to the region that had witnessed a decline". Note that the source says the mosque is the oldest in the Sahara, which is not the same as in Libya. Finally, the "is of great regional importance" clause of the hook is unsourced and has been tagged with a "clarification needed" template; I'd add in addition to an explanation of that claim, a reliable secondary source is also required to back it up. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:58, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Sorry about that. I thought that because it said "clarification needed" (as opposed to citation needed) that it would still be fine, since refs 1 and 2 at the end of the lead back that up. —Bloom6132 (talk) 15:37, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Must be wondering why NVV has not responded. I was busy finding more sources on google books and webpages to supplement but could not find any. As regards to above review observations, 7th century is mentioned in the history section but was a typo error in the lead section which got repeated in the hook text also. It is rectified now. The quote “great regional importance" is now sourced and referenced. I have copy edited the text part. It is the oldest mosque in the Sahara and not in Libya. Now corrected in the lead. I can not find more reliable sources other than what is given in the article. Hence, you are free to take any view of your choice on the article. Modified hook proposed is ALT 1... that the Atiq Mosque (pictured), the oldest in the Oasis of the Sahara Desert in Libya, dates back to the 7th century and has conical-shaped domes made of mud-brick and limestone? -Nvvchar. 06:53, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
  • New hook looks good to go. I've just added some minor grammar modifications. —Bloom6132 (talk) 14:21, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't understand what ALT1's "oldest in the oasis of the Sahara Desert in Libya" means or why anything so restrictive is an interesting superlative, but more, assuming this is from the mention in the intro, the current FN1 (atlasobscura) says nothing about any of these facts except its 7th-century origin. As I noted earlier, it's supposed to be the oldest in the Sahara, which presumably means anywhere in the Sahara, oasis or not, Libya or not. Suggest that "in Libya" in the opening article sentence is moved to immediately after "Atiq Mosque" for clarity. This modification of ALT1 ought to be okay, if the relevant sources turn out to be:
I'm going to ask someone with a better sense of acceptable sources to check on the ones I was worried about. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:38, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I more or less agree with BlueMoonset about the sources. The translation website is inexcusable, in particular, as basic histories of Libya are a dime a dozen. Also, "The present status of the mosque, following the Civil War of Libya in 2011, is not known" is ridiculous; one just hasn't been able to find sources about it. I'm assuming Google Earth would have a chance of helping, if one knew the coordinates. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:49, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I have tinkered with the article, added some sources. The touristy websites are o.k. for the physical description, backed up by photos, but not for the history. The oasis was taken by the Arabs in the 7th century and they would have established a mosque. It may well have been the first in the Sahara. But Peterson, whom I trust, says the present building is 12th century. Two ALT suggestions below:
  • ALT3: ... that the Atiq Mosque (pictured) in Libya dates to the 12th century?
  • ALT4: ... that the Atiq Mosque (pictured) in Libya is lit and ventilated by openings in its conical domes?

Needs a fresh review. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:11, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

  • There are two mosques in Awjila. Are you sure Peterson was talking about Atiq? He doesn't name it. (For that matter, Atiq isn't named in Lonely Planet either.) Further, if you're going to say it's 12th century, then you can't take the 7th-century claim from atlasobscura and assign it to a supposed earlier mosque on that site. Either atlasobscura is right about the 7th-century creation of the current mosque (and its "mud-brick structure") or it isn't. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:45, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
A complicated answer follows:
  • Lonely Planet names two mosques in the town: the Al-Kabir mosque with domes built from mud-brick and limestone and the modern mausoleum of "Abdullah ibn Ali [sic] al-Sarah", which includes a semi-subterranean mosque, smaller than Al-Kabir but with similar domes. "Al-Jami' al-Kabir" means "Great mosque". See here (bottom left column) for a mosque in Benghazi called Atiq Mosque, and also Al Jame al-Kabir. The Libyan Tourism site calls this one the "Great Mosque of Atiq". Al-Kabir mosque is the Atiq mosque.
  • The 7th century is very old indeed for a mosque, but it is common for newer mosques to be built on the site of earlier structures. Petersen is talking about early mosques in Libya, and highlights the 12th century mosque in Awjlah "built of stone and brick ... with pointed conical domes". I cannot believe he would have failed to mention a 7th century mosque in the same oasis town, also of stone and brick and also with conical domes, if there were one.
  • I would say the tourist sites are repeating an accurate local tradition that there has been a mosque there since the 7th century, but are wrong to think the present building is the original. There seems no doubt that the mosque described by the tourist sites, pictured and located on the map in the article is the Great Mosque of Atiq, but that it is "only" 12th century as stated by Petersen.
Having said all that, I have dropped the statement that there was a 7th century mosque. Aymatth2 (talk) 18:44, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Still needs a fresh review, especially in light of the above. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:23, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
  • All this stuff about this uncertain 7th Century mosque is out the window now, so ALT4 is good to go. I would vote at ALT3 though, since that hook is not interesting enough and far too general to be considered.—♦♦ AMBER(ЯʘCK) 20:38, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
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