Template talk:Today/CE/AM

Details

So like this?

(I created this at Template:Today/AD/AM after doing the research as to what we can have and note) However, I'm torn between two possibilities for the link. The Gregorian link is to the day of the year January 15, and the links for the day month combination in the Islamic Calendars just go to the month (since 25 Dey doesn't have a page, for example). However for the Hebrew Calendar we do have *some* pages like Portal:Judaism/Today in Jewish History/24 Tevet. So should 24 Tevet be linked to

[[Portal:Judaism/Today in Jewish History/24 Tevet|24 Tevet]] or
24 [[Tevet]]

Unfortunately, we don't have all of the days done in the Today in Jewish History, so that is a problem. Our choices in terms of what we can put in the template for Hebrew are at mw:Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time (look for hebrew) with the value that applies today in parentheses

Day of Month (24)
Full month name (Tevet)
Number of days in month(29)
Genitive form of the month name (Tevet)
Month number(4)
Full year (5775)

I'm not sure the Genetive form of the month's name is useful at all in english. The 4 & 29 might be. There is the capability of putting out the year in Hebrew, but right now it is doing the Hebrew equivalent of 2015 (ב'ט"ו), *not* 5775 (ה'תשע"ה), I don't know if this can be altered.Naraht (talk) 22:00, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also, AM 5775 or 5775 AM? (And added to the Hebrew Calendar page. And BTW, I creating it counts as support for creating it. :) :)Naraht (talk) 22:08, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work. A few comments:

I'm not even sure what Hebrew months have different genitive forms (rendered in English!). I am sure you don't need to worry about it.
Definitely AM 5775. Or even better yet, AM 5775.
I would use 2015 CE, not 2015 AD. (See Common Era. For Judaism-related items we pretty much always prefer CE to AD.) By the way, notwithstanding how it appears in the Muslim template, the right way to do AD would be AD 2015, not 2015 AD.
I wouldn't worry about rendering any of the date in Hebrew characters. This is English Wikipedia, after all, and certainly there is no reason to fuss over the numerals. That's pretty complicated coding that IMO is unnecessary.
If you want to get a little fancier, feel free to borrow some coding from my template at User:StevenJ81/userbsd2. My template changes the date based on the user's local time zone, not UTC. (FWIW, it changes the date at 6:00 pm based on the local time zone, not midnight. But that bit would probably start getting very complicated for a template like yours.)

Good luck. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:41, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed on the Genitive. Though if there is a way to generate the Hebrew by temporarily changing the language for output for vales in #time that might be worth looking at, not necessarily for the genetive form, but for the month name, I'd prefer to be able to put טֵבֵת or טבת as well.
Definitely AM in front, but why the Italics?
I'll switch over to CE (and link to the article on Common Era)
Which ultimately leads to template:Hebrew_calendar_today_in_time_zone. For your template, if you don't specify TZ does it take the default from the user's preferences? If so, I think we should be able to use it, though that will be more complex.
Not too bad in complexity. And if I do, then I'll probably adopt (and alter) the doc page for your template. :)
Changed and moved to Template:Today/CE/AM Displays now to the right.

Naraht (talk) 16:46, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would probably recommend not trying to translate the date into Hebrew. This is English Wikipedia, and in general things should be in English. My "bsd" template is a userbox, which gives a little more latitude. But I think all template-space templates should be understandable in English.
AM stands for anno mundi. That is a Latin phrase, so should appear in italics, including when abbreviated. (It's an interesting question whether or not the phrase anno domini is sufficiently incorporated into English not to require that treatment, but even if it is, I do not think the same is true of anno mundi.)
template:Hebrew calendar today in time zone is also my work, as you may have noticed. The default value for it is UTC, which is the server's default. I don't even know if there is a mediawiki variable by which you can call the user's default TZ. But even if there is, the convention for all of the time-zone-sensitive templates I am familiar with is to require explicitly sending the time zone variable in, with a default of the server's time zone. This way you don't have to assume what the user wants.
The reason I warned about complexity around moving up the switchover time was that if you really wanted to do things right (and not confuse people seeing the template on a page), you would have to do three different things simultaneously. Starting at the bottom:

Switch the Hebrew date at 18:00.
Not switch the Gregorian date until 0:00.
Have the title read "Today" (or "Day of the Week") between 0:00 and 17:59, and read "This evening" (or "Day of the Week Evening") between 18:00 and 23:59. None of that is especially difficult to do, but it makes a simple box more complicated.

Again, nice work. שבוע טוב. StevenJ81 (talk) 01:52, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

OK on the lack of Hebrew and the AM as Latin.
Actually I didn't realize that it was also your work, I was sort of hoping there were more people who'd dealt with the joys of #date and the Hebrew Calendar output thereof.
This is the first time I looked at it at night (9PM), and just noticed that it was saying Sunday when it is Saturday Night
A user by user argument doesn't make sense for something in Mainspace. Unless I can get the offset in preferences from UTC to be used, I think just leaving it so that the CE and AM date change at midnight UTC is best. OTOH, if I can get the offset, then local midnight/local 6PM would make more sense for the change over.

תודה רבה Naraht (talk) 02:19, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not too many people dealing with #date and the Hebrew Calendar, as far as I know.

I have checked from time to time on Hebrew Wikipedia, and there is very little in the way of such things there, either.

BTW, part of the problem is that if you call variables like {{CURRENTDAYNAME}} they always use the server's default, which is UTC. So if you live in the North American Eastern Time Zone, as I do, that variable (and the date on Wikipedia's home page, and many other things) simply switches at 7 pm in the winter, and 8 pm in the summer, and that's just how it goes. If you actually want to use the user's offset, you will have to invoke it directly using {{#date: ...}}. Do let me know if you find a mw variable for the user's preferred time zone ... and if it can be invoked by #date. StevenJ81 (talk) 03:17, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I do think it makes sense to add the date in Hebrew also. After all, most people who do use it, use it in Hebrew. By having both English transliteration and the Hebrew, there would be no problem with the fact that this is the English Wikipedia. Debresser (talk) 07:20, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing on...

I asked on WP:VPT about this. Adding something that had LocalTimeZone/Offset would break apart the cache. (Normally instead of recalculating a page, an already calculated version of the page from the cache is also used, as such it is inappropriate for mainspace pages)

So what's left for discussion? The only thing that I see is whether a) We want to try to put the months in Hebrew in the Template and b) If so, how. Is that it?Naraht (talk) 14:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ported to Hebrew Wikipedia

@Naraht: just thought you'd like to know I ported this template over to Hebrew Wikipedia. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:13, 12 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@StevenJ81: Cool! Two questions, should we bring the template פרשת השבוע הנוכחית over to english Wikipedia and if so, should we add it to this template?Naraht (talk) 18:32, 12 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We might. But there are a bunch of subroutine calls in that template that would also have to be ported in, so it's not such a simple thing. I suggest getting in touch with @Ypnypn:, who does a lot of work over at Portal:Judaism, where there is a Parshat Hashavua functionality. There may be a way to add the functionality of the פרשת השבוע הנוכחית template by tying into the existing infrastructure here.

I am considering (at low priority) porting the template to Simple English Wikipedia, French Wikipedia, and possibly Yiddish and Ladino. But I'm not going to mess with Parsha functionality if infrastructure doesn't already exist at the target wiki. Bad enough that things like Template:Sidebar don't exist everywhere else, so that I have to figure out how to create the box in the first place. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:59, 12 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Portal Judaism is doing it be referencing a list that is going to have to be updated long term. The equivalent template he:תבנית:פרשת_השבוע_הנוכחית appears to be doing it differently, but I'd need to understand both Hebrew and template language to figure out how it is being done there. The other question is how to deal with (From Weekly Torah portion) "Due to different lengths of holidays in Israel and the Diaspora, the portion that is read on a particular week will sometimes not be the same inside and outside Israel." Naraht (talk) 20:54, 12 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I understand (in a general sense; I didn't dig into it) how the Hebrew Wikipedia template does it. It was more time and effort than I wanted to take.

The Hebrew template returns both the Israel and chutz la'aretz readings in those cases. (We get that this year, by the way, starting April 11 through May 16. I can't quite tell from your comment: do you understand the reason why?) StevenJ81 (talk) 21:03, 12 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Gotta love Hebrew Calendar Math. :)

Not *completely*, but I believe it is because 22 Nisan is a "Normal Shabbat" in Israel and not in chutz la'aretz due to the different length of Pesach. I'm not sure how things are normally outside Israel in the Pesachim (first time I've ever pluralized that word in Hebrew. :) )with two Shabbatot.Naraht (talk) 01:27, 13 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's pretty much it. On 22 Nisan, a regular parsha is read in Israel, but a yom tov reading is read outside Israel. Eventually, they need to get back in sync with each other, and that can only done by a double-parsha down the road in chutz that is not doubled in Israel.

There are certain rules around that—particularly that we get back in sync no later than the Shabbat before Tisha B'Av, when Devarim is read. The last parsha to be doubled (or the last double to split, if you prefer) is always Matot-Masei, so in leap years, there are different readings from 22 Nisan all the way to 2 Av, when Israel reads Masei and chutz reads Matot-Masei. In a regular year like this, for whatever reason, we don't take care of this at the earliest double possible (which would be Tazria-Metzora); instead, we wait until Behar-Behukotai.

I would be remiss in this lecture (sorry!) if I didn't mention that this can happen with Shavuot, too. But in this case, chutz always doubles Hukkat-Balak, which is never, ever doubled in Israel. In this case Matot-Masei is always already doubled, even in Israel, and even in a leap year. So why we don't wait until then and instead create an entirely new double for this purpose, I don't know. But there you go. StevenJ81 (talk)

Fortunately, even though the rules are different in Israel and chutz are different, they can be mathematically described. I can see it being useful to have a template for Israel, one for chutz and one for both which shows one if they are the same and two if they are different, but that's a *lot* of coding. Naraht (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not doing it, but feel free. A lot of the background you need, in more detail than I ever can or will give you, can be found here. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:47, 13 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Naraht:OK. The math popped into my head as I was walking home from synagogue this Shabbat. With respect to Shavuot, I was thinking backwards. In Israel, in any year where Shavuot falls on a Friday, the only double-parsha remaining between there and Tisha B'Av, Mattot-Masei, is already doubled. If then, in chutz we need to double on an additional Shabbat because 7 Sivan is also yom tov, we have to create a new double parsha (viz Hukkat-Balak) to make it work. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:52, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@StevenJ81: My thought is that this isn't a new issue in chutz and has to have been dealt with already, we just have to figure out how it has been already done...Naraht (talk) 18:42, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. I'm just a geek about these things and want to know why they were dealt with the way they were. But for purposes of writing macro code, that doesn't matter, of course. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:22, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed update

Hi, @Naraht:, and a good moed to you. I played with a few things, and now present the proposed modification for your comment at User:StevenJ81/sandbox#Box1. The last section disappears entirely when not in use. Thoughts? (I'm also thinking of losing the italics for AM. That's correct in writing, but it just looks messy in a template.) StevenJ81 (talk) 13:37, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good. I'm just glad the Omer doesn't include one of the months that varies in length. (which of course will affect things if an X day of Hannukah additional template were added)Naraht (talk) 14:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ported to French Wikipedia

Ported today to the French Wikipedia!

Separately, it's been interesting fixing up the version I put on Hebrew Wikipedia. For example:

There is capability to change the Hebrew date at some version of sundown. Do it, or not?
Change the day of the week at sundown or at midnight? Common Israeli usage (see, e.g., bus schedules) is to call Yom Hamishi (Thursday) Yom Hamishi all the way until midnight ... but what about Shabbat?
If we change the Hebrew date at sundown, but not the day of the week, they're out of sync? What to do?

So here's how I handled it:

Hebrew date changes at sundown.
Except on Shabbat, day of the week changes at midnight.
To reconcile the two, I change the introducing "Hayom" ("Today is ...") to "Or Layom" (an ironic euphemism essentially meaning "This evening is ...") from sundown until midnight, when it switches back to "Today is ..."
Day of the week for Shabbat begins at sundown. At sundown at the end of Shabbat, the day of the week becomes "Motzei Shabbat" until midnight, when it switches to Sunday. (No way to get it to wait all the way until nightfall to change, unless I put in a lot of work to create a "nightfall" template, which I'm not doing, no way.)

Anyway, it's been interesting. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:10, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Very interesting. Not sure why it is a Euphemism, but seem reasonable. So in what an american would call Tuesday night, does it say "This evening is Tuesday" or "This evening in Wednesday"?Naraht (talk) 23:40, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also, It is 7:41 PM on the east coast of North America on April 30th. I noticed that the French and Hebrew had the day as 1 May. Is that part of the changeover at sunset, the fact that the main french and hebrew speaking areas are in Eurasia, or something else?Naraht (talk) 23:42, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Or layom", the phrase that refers to evening, literally means "light of the day". That's why it's a euphemism.

The top section just gives the day of the week, which in Hebrew comes out "First Day", "Second Day", ... , "Sixth Day", "Shabbat". This changes at midnight Israel time, and behaves a little differently on Shabbat, as described above.

The second section is the Gregorian date, changing at midnight Israel time.

The top half of the third section is the Hebrew date. At sundown Israel time, it changes to say, "This evening is [new Hebrew date]." At midnight Israel time, it changes again to say "Today is [same Hebrew date]." The bottom half of the third section is the Omer count. That should entirely disappear when the Omer period is over.

The bottom section is the Parshat HaShavua, and it shows both the Israel reading and the Diaspora reading, which are currently different.

The reason I can use midnight Israel time (or on French Wikipedia midnight Paris time) is because those two Wikipedias have declared home time zones other than UTC. If you use {{#timel ... }} instead of {{#time ... }} those time functions are based on the local wiki's declared time zone instead of UTC. That doesn't work here, because this wiki uses UTC as its home time zone. (After all, do you use Sydney? London? New York? San Francisco? For Hebrew and French, there are obvious choices; for English, not so much.)

"Midnight" for Hebrew Wikipedia is therefore currently based on UTC+3 (or 5 pm EDT). "Midnight" for French Wikipedia is based on UTC+2 (or 6 pm EDT). The template you built on this wiki changes at midnight UTC (or 8 pm EDT). StevenJ81 (talk) 00:24, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. As I may have said before, I'm an American Conservative/Reconstructionist Jew, so my vocabulary is very limited in this regard.

So the Western calendar day changes at midnight along with the Hebrew day of the week, but the Hebrew date changes at sundown. (with Shabbat dealt with a little differently)

I wonder what other languages wouldn't have an obvious single central home TZ other than English. Russian would use Moscow, Chinese Beijing. The only other one that I think is as wild as English is Spanish. Arabic is spread out over multiple TZ, but the question there is whether to use Cairo(+2) or Mecca(+3).

I'll look more when I have time. Can the Parshat Hashavua be added to the English? And any other languages that would make sense to add?Naraht (talk) 00:49, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I grew up Conservative. My Hebrew started improving substantially only after I became more observant in my late 20's and 30's. But Hebrew is our language, so it's worth getting to know some.

I think more languages than you think don't have an obvious home time. German, Italian and Russian act just as you would expect. Spanish sticks with UTC (as you'd expect), but so do Arabic, Farsi and Hindi. (You might imagine Arabic to do that so as not to choose between Cairo and Mecca, but Farsi and Hindi really have obvious choices.

Latin, Ladino and Yiddish all use UTC. These days, Ladino might have chosen Israel, but Yiddish and Latin certainly don't have obvious choices.

One issue is that the capability of a wiki's "choosing" its home time zone is relatively recent, and smaller wikis probably wouldn't do so unless a local administrator cared enough to take the time to manage it. Like you, I live on the East Coast of North America, and I did find one Wikipedia that uses EST/EDT as a home time zone: this one. Can you figure out what it is? (;-)

I ported the template over to Simple English Wikipedia, and will probably do Yiddish, too. I may do Ladino, German and Latin eventually. We'll see. I'm working on it in parallel with a personal userbox I created (see here: User:StevenJ81/userbsd2). None of my ports of that one are as fancy as the version here:

I don't have true right- and left-handed versions anywhere else, though sometimes there's an option to float the right-handed option to the left side of the page.
The only Wikipedia where I ported the Hebrew date option openly is Hebrew, which uses the Hebrew date capability available there (and so changes at sundown Israel time).
At Simple English, pretty much all of the capability of the English version is there (except for right- and left-handed versions) because the underlying infrastructure exists on the Simple English Wikipedia. But I didn't put most of it in the documentation.
At French, none of the options are in the documentation. (Actually, I didn't write documentation.) I hard-coded in the erev functionality (based on Paris time), because I did it for myself only (though you're certainly welcome to use it if you want). This is probably the model I'd use in other places, using their own home time zones.

By the way: I also created a truncated version of your template for Hebrew Wikipedia, designed particularly for use on the Hebrew Wikipedia's version of the Hebrew calendar page (he:לוח עברי). To get to the truncated version of the template only, go here: (he:תבנית:פרטים היום/קיצור). On that one, the day of the week is on top, and I handled the Shabbat-Motzei Shabbat issue the same way I did on the main template. But here, during the rest of the week, I let the day of the week change at sundown, instead of midnight. The article, after all, is on the Jewish calendar, and on the pure Jewish calendar the day changes at sundown! (Well, maybe at sundown, maybe at nightfall, but that's too complicated to do ...)

Anyway, Shabbat Shalom to you and yours! StevenJ81 (talk) 14:02, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ported to Yiddish Wikipedia, and that's it for the foreseeable future

Thanks for getting me started on this! StevenJ81 (talk) 20:19, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

OK, being a glutton for punishment ...

I ported the template to Latin. Here there was a bit of a process to figure out what the proper rendering of the Hebrew months in Latin would be, and to change the Latin rendering of the months by the server. (The server was using English transliterations by default there.) That's now done.

I modified a couple of hyperlinks, based on experiences at other language wikis. "AM" now pretty universally links to Anno Mundi. In wikis with articles on Hebrew calendar years, the year links to the year article. Otherwise, the year links to the equivalent of Hebrew calendar. Where possible, the Hebrew calendar day links to a specific Hebrew date. Otherwise, where possible, it links to a specific Hebrew calendar month. On simplewiki, I left a red link in hopes that someday I (or someone) will start writing an article on Hebrew months. On lawiki, I left the Hebrew date unlinked, because I don't see such articles being written any time in the foreseeable future.

Ladino (:lad, or Djudeo-espanyol) is turning out to be not so easy. It's a very quiescent wiki, there really isn't a single forum page (like WP:Village Pump or simple:WP:Simple Talk) that people follow, and the only two administrators that have been present recently haven't returned my messages. I may try to see if a steward will help me eventually.

That's all for now ... StevenJ81 (talk) 16:33, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so right now: English, French, Latin, Yiddish and Simple English.

I think that this template might be one of the most complicated things on Ladino wikipedia. Note only one of the twelve months of the Hebrew Calendar has a page (Adar) and no page for Anno Mundi.

Out of the wikipedias with pages for Anno Mundi, (d:Q743781) the obvious next ones are German or Spanish.Naraht (talk) 19:42, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

German in progress. (Notice how I did the Wikidata link above.) StevenJ81 (talk) 20:01, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Number of links in this template

The number of links in this template is since yesterday's edit 7 out of 8 words, the day of the Hebrew month being the only one that is not linked. I think this is overkill. Debresser (talk) 07:52, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To some extent, it's a matter of taste, I suppose. Most calendar templates, in most wikis, have a strong element of "navbox" in them. Look at a template like {{Today/AD/SH/AH}}, which this one was adapted from. Or look, even, at {{Today cell}}. In the latter, everything is linked (except for "Today is"). (Everything is also forced to be black, and that might not be a bad idea, actually.)

The only pages transcluding this template are Hebrew calendar and some user pages. On Hebrew calendar, the Hebrew year bolds, because that becomes a self-link. I wouldn't mind recoding this template to avoid that behavior. [Done. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:11, 25 June 2015 (UTC)] But on user pages, I thought it would be worthwhile to have a link to Hebrew calendar, and if "AM" is linking to Anno Mundi, the year is the only unused text left. If you and @Naraht would like me to take that link out, I will, but it's my preference to leave it. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:37, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm good with the current behavior. I don't think it will get any worse because I can't see 8 Tammuz ever getting a page (should 1 Tishri redirect to Rosh Hashanna, etc.?) (9 Av does redirect to Tisha B'Av) Naraht (talk) 14:14, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It would take a lot of work to change the hyperlink only on certain days, but not others. I'd be hard-pressed to say it's impossible. But I don't think it's worth the effort. (By the way, Hebrew and Yiddish Wikipedias do have date articles for Hebrew dates. Those, and French Wikipedia, have date articles for the Hebrew year.) StevenJ81 (talk) 14:26, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the code would be complex even on the Hebrew wikipedia. *Some* of 1 Adar days have pages apparently, and some don't. See he:קטגוריה:ימות_השנה_העברית. ~~(No I don't quite know how to indicate a category on the Hebrew Wikipedia in terms of right and left in the short link form).~~ Naraht (talk) 16:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(Try that.) The difference is that you take advantage of the infrastructure already there, and handle things in harmony with the infrastructure, not otherwise. So in this case, I only have to link to the date, and it works, because the infrastructure is in place:

All days of regular Adar have pages.
All days of Adar II exist as redirects to their corresponding regular Adar pages.
All days of Adar I exist as redirects to their corresponding regular Adar pages, except for the three you found, which have their own page.

For Wikipedia's purposes, this approach works very well. You need a separate page for 14/15 of Adar I because unlike 14/15 "plain" Adar (or Adar II), they are not Purim. And you need a separate page for 30 Adar I because "plain" Adar and Adar II don't have 30 days. But otherwise, all the "day" articles for Adar in Wikipedia cover "plain" Adars of regular years and both Adars of leap years, and that works just fine.

I might want to try to get the yahrzeit of Leib Yaffe (30 Adar I) to show up on the 30 Shevat page in regular years, but that's a separate programming challenge I could take care of.

So for the purposes of this template, all I had to do was add a link to the date, and it worked. Very simple. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:46, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanx. the RTL/LTR usage here confuses, but i guess it makes sense. I wondered if it could be handled with redirects, but didn't have a chance to look. The redirected days aren't in any category at all. The concept of categories for certain types of redirects probably doesn't exist on the hebrew wikipedia. The wikipedia page on Adar on this wikipedia says that a birthday on 30 Adar I should be celebrated on 1 Nisan as opposed to what you've written as 30 Shevat.Naraht (talk) 18:04, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Without getting into detail, yahrzeits are sometimes handled differently from birthdays. So, yes: a birthday on 30 Adar I is observed on 1 Nisan in a regular year. But a yahrzeit on 30 Adar I is observed on 30 Shevat. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:21, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Detail: http://kesher.org.uk/adar-1-anniversary/ :) Naraht (talk) 18:41, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there you go: Two Jews, three opinions. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:43, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As it should be. Naraht (talk) 18:46, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Technical issue

As can be seen from comparing this page to the previous one, when the template {{Today/CE/AM}} is placed at the end of the sentence, the following sections start with an indent. Some technical issue, which I can't solve. Who can? Debresser (talk) 08:01, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This edit didn't fix the issue. What was it meant to fix? Debresser (talk) 12:26, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, that's not the only funny thing this template does at the end of a line. Have a look (here) at how it rendered: the title ("Today") rendered as part of the body text.

That <onlyinclude> bit was an attempt at a quick fix. It helped on something when I was playing with the Sefirat HaOmer templates. I'd hoped it would help here. It didn't. (I removed it; since it doesn't help, I didn't want to bloat the template with it.)

I've tried a bunch of things over time, including using some different markup language that I worked up for wikis where Lua is not implemented (or not fully implemented). My experiments sometimes changed things some, but didn't really solve the overall problem of this template doing funny things at the end of the line.

All that having been said, sidebars are not normally supposed to be positioned at the ends of sentences (or in mid-sentence). They usually get put by themselves. As of now, the only mainspace page that this template (or any of its other-wiki counterparts) can be found on is Hebrew calendar. Otherwise, it is limited to user pages (or to an announcement at WikiProject Judaism). And since the template works fine in those settings, I'm far more inclined to add documentation warning to put the template on its own line than to keep playing with the code. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:30, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Documentation

Done StevenJ81 (talk) 14:33, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tammuz

Discussion moved from User talk:StevenJ81.

I think there is a glitch left in your Template:Today/CE/AM. It now links to Tamuz (a disambiguation page) instead of to Tammuz (Hebrew month). Any chance to fix this soon? Thanks in advance! The Banner talk 07:35, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@The Banner: With all due respect for the disambiguation project, I'm not sure I'd call it a glitch. The code that calls this is [[{{#time:xjF}}]]. In other words, it's a hyperlink defined by a parser function call that retrieves the name of the Hebrew month. The coding as it currently exists is quite simple. Tamuz is the only month in the Hebrew calendar where that hyperlink ends up landing on a disambiguation page; I'm not convinced the extra coding required to avoid that result is worthwhile.

I might just as easily point out:

Why are there even separate disambiguation pages for Tamuz and Tammuz? They are the same word. Every other reference on either page (including the Israeli band spelled with an "o") is eventually derived either from the Hebrew month or the Babylonian month-and-god.
At least for spelling with a single "m", the Hebrew month is surely the primary topic. (Single "m" spellings are all Israeli, because the original gemination of the "m" has disappeared in modern Hebrew.) All of the other single "m" references—the band, the missile, the kibbutz—are Israeli references that are secondary to the name of the Hebrew month.

To me, the clean—and appropriate—solution to this problem is actually:

Merge the content of Tamuz into Tammuz (disambiguation).
Make sure that Tammuz (disambiguation) begins Tammuz (or Tamuz) may refer to: ...
Convert Tamuz into a redirect to Tammuz (Hebrew month). (WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and then the parser function call can link there unambiguously.)
Make sure that the hatnote in the article Tammuz (Hebrew month) includes a link to Tammuz (disambiguation).

Just my two cents. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:47, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Both pages exist for about ten years. When building this template, you could have been aware of this issues with this month. So it is reasonable to request a fix from you. (Escape route: you requesting the moves and merges on the relevant pages.) The Banner talk 14:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@The Banner: Look: clearly you and I see things differently here:

I don't think it's so horrible if a link ends up on a disambiguation page one month per year. And in my view keeping the coding of the template simpler is important.
You think having links ending up on disambiguation pages is awful, and you don't care whether the coding is more complicated.

I ought to be BOLD and just make the disambiguation changes myself. But if someone objects, I don't care enough to fight for them. And I feel confident that if I decide to do nothing about it, you will continue to complain to me. So you win: I'll change the template. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:13, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It would mean that this template would be in the maintenance list for a full month. And so will all the articles that use this template. The Banner talk 15:24, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@The Banner: That would bother you more than it bothers me. But I have made the change, so that should be an end to it. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:28, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

End of moved discussion.

Coding updated per the above. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:28, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. The Banner talk 15:57, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

More languages

Added German and Ladino. And Ladino wasn't so easy, because there isn't a single orthographic convention to use. I decided on using Aki Yerushalayim for day-of-the-week and Gregorian date, and Hebrew for Hebrew date. But that's because I had some certainty how to do that. But if you look at the home page of lad:, you'll see five different spelling conventions (four Latin, one Hebrew) just on Wikipedia–and that doesn't even reflect all the possibilities.

That really about exhausts the list of languages I have any comfort with. Any you want to try yourself, @Naraht? StevenJ81 (talk) 11:52, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the non enwp editing I have done is changing "John Hopkins University" to "Johns Hopkins University" or similar. I'd say the language that I know the most words in other than English is American Sign Language. :(

The Muslim one that this originally was created from exists in an almost completely different group of languages Template:Today/AD/SH/AH ranging from Arabic to Indonesian to Basque. Would having that template in a language make you more comfortable?

I went through and looked at the languages which had the Arabic Calendar template, Anno Mundi and the month of Tammuz and got *one* that had them all. Indonesian.Naraht (talk) 19:31, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be honest with you: I have no particular need to go much further. At most, I might consider Spanish and Russian in the future.

To me, other core target wikis, if any, would be those with an article on Hebrew calendar. That's the only mainspace page this goes on, so it's only on those wikis I would have an interest. But I'm starting to find that Hebrew month names are not always updated (from the default English version) on different-language wikis. When they're not, I have to figure them out, and some way or other get them in the template. And that's just more work than I really want to do. (I didn't mind Ladino—it's a Jewish language.) StevenJ81 (talk) 19:42, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's cool. Spanish and Russian would be good ones as well. I may take a crack at one of the other languages in a Roman alphabet myself (Basque??). My primary question is: "How did you decide on the name for the template in other languages?" English seems to be the only one that follows the Today/calendars naming convention. And by the way for Indonesian: id:Calender Yahudi :) Will any of the templates break if they do change to generating the Hebrew Month names in the languages themselves?Naraht (talk) 19:59, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Armenian

First of all, Shana tova!
Somebody adapted this into Armenian. Was it you? StevenJ81 (talk) 13:57, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Shana tova!
Nope. I wouldn't even *try* in a non-roman alphabet based language. The user who created is Pandukht, looks like a reasonably active editor.Naraht (talk) 14:08, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'll write him/her. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:19, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

He/She apparently also created the pages for Anno Mundi and the Jewish Calendar. I'd probably count them both as stubs, but stubs are *definitely* better than nothing!Naraht (talk) 16:09, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]