This is an archive of past discussions about User:Kerry Raymond. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Great work filling out this list, Kerry. Thankyou. :) And hang on... you're that Kerry Raymond...? Small world! :P FiggyBee (talk) 14:15, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
For your contributions to Brisbane, it's people, and it's history. Great job! Rocketrod1960 21:51, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Happy Australia Day! Thank you for contributing to Australian content!
Australian Wikimedian Recognition (AWR)
Thank you for your contributions on English Wikipedia that have helped improve Australian related content. :D It is very much appreciated. :D Enjoy your Australia Day and please continue your good work! Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:12, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Nice work
Hi Kerry, I saw you've been doing some good work on Queensland politics etc. and wanted to say thanks. I've been adding some former Victorian electoral districts and upper-house provinces e.g. Central Province (Victoria). Great work on expanding Archibald Archer too, I used the (public domain) The_Dictionary_of_Australasian_Biography at Wikisource as a basis for him and other politicians etc. I spent some time proof-reading the DAB at Wikisource. I found it's a good way to start a biography without running foul of copyright. I also read you "My thoughts about quality in Wikipedia" on your User page and tend to agree.
Keep up the good work! Diverman (talk) 03:18, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
At the Australian noticeboard
Your new stubs are showing up well - one small issue as a long time tagger - the lack of a project tag on the talk pages is very noticeable.... we used to have many years ago it feels, a very generous editor who spent his life following around users who seemed to have no interest in project tags (they are very important for project assessment) - however he has long gone (like most...) and as a consequence, see all those little red talk pages at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:New_articles_%28Australia%29... ? sats10:57, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
have tinkered with some, when creating stubs please consider the possibility of adding project tags, as user:longhair has truly long left the heavy editing stage involvement in the project... sats01:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi, I note on the cfd for Taringa that you mention that you are negotiating for the Heritage Listings to be CC-licensed. See if you can get a enWikisource compatible license, then we can host the Listings over there. There's a current project with the QLD library to scan, host and proofread various of their holdings, so you might be able to hook in with that. Have a chat to User:Lankiveil and/or User:John Vandenberg if that's an approach you'd be interested in. Cheers, Beeswaxcandle (talk) 09:18, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
I hadn't been thinking in terms of Wiki Source for the heritage register because it's not a scan-and-transcribe situation. Although the subject matter is historic, the register itself was commenced in 1992 and is "born digital"; I understand it is an Oracle database. I've requested access via the Queensland Government's Open Data initiative which will mean the data (if released) would most likely be available as a spreadsheet under a CC-BY license. But you are right that there may be other uses of the data on the other projects. Lankiveil and John Vandenberg are aware of my negotiations. Kerry (talk) 21:27, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
I understand you have various ideas about what works and what doesnt and how it all does here and what the matter is and so on, so I thought i'd just drop a note, to say that redirects do not carry categories. Doing great work! well done! cheers satusuro02:05, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
I agree in general one wouldn't add a category to a redirect and I don't usually do so. But redirects can have categories and I added them quite deliberately for these former local government area redirects as I felt it fitted the situation of Wikipedia:Categorizing redirects#Alternative names for articles. The history of these local government authorities is tortuous, they split, they merge, they change their names, they change status from division/shire/borough/town/city (and most of these changes actually create new and distinct legal entities). This means that one has situations where the story of Kianawah Division and its various successors is more-or-less similar in their history to the Town of Wynnum, so it make sense with the level of information currently available to just have a single article covering the 4 or so LGAs that share a more-or-less common territory and redirect the others, but this might not be always the case in the future when they grow and possibly develop into separate articles. There are also weird situations where the Shire of XYZ co-exists with the Town of XYZ as separate entities (which I don't think most people would expect). So unless all of the former LGAs appear in the Category:Former Local Government Areas of Queensland, readers are likely to think there isn't an article on a particular LGA or not realise they are looking at the wrong LGA article. So I think what I am doing is what I am supposed to be doing in such circumstances. Kerry (talk) 04:50, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough - thanks for taking the time to explain so well..former lgas in most parts of the world can be damned headaches to sort through - so you are doing an important job there.. satusuro07:13, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
request for help
HI. Andys'edtits here. working on extending local stub, Labrador Qld,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labrador,_Queensland It really needs a 'review & page structure layout and prose tidy/edit' please. I can't write prose well. Left minor Q on it's talk page. Thanks in advance.--Andys'edtits 05:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Local Government Areas
Bloody fantastic job you're doing with these. I wish we could get better information about where exactly they were located but I see the source material isn't that detailed. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:08, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. Yes, these articles would be a lot better with some maps, especially to explain all the splits and merges that go on. The word descriptions in the Qld Govt Gazette are probably detailed enough if you already have maps of that era because they refer to things like the names of pastoral runs and former placenames which don't appear on current maps. But getting hold of historical maps is my problem. Some do exist for the LGAs of different eras at the State Archives, but I haven't yet been able to sort out their copyright status or how I'd get them digitised (some are huge - A0 or larger); I'd need the active cooperation of the archives. The sort of thing I dream of having for the former LGAs would be something along the lines of this animated gif showing the evolution of the states of Australia. If I can find a way to do the maps, I will, but at the moment, I'm still struggling to get a minimal history written for all the LGAs. I am not even sure I have the complete list of LGAs yet; every time I think I do, another one pops up its head. Kerry (talk) 20:18, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
It might be worth emailing the archives and having a chat to them about it - it's not like there isn't tons of effort and funding going into digitisation with the advent of Trove and such, and it's not like it's a hugely esoteric topic. In the meantime, where are you getting your hands on the Queensland Government Gazette? If that's digitised I'd like to have a crack at extracting information from them myself but if it isn't there ain't much I can do from WA. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:31, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
I have some contacts at the archives, so I'll probably talk face-to-face, but the problem with the archives is they don't "own" the items they hold; they merely care for them on behalf of other government departments, so issues like closure and licensing aren't decided by the archives but by the originating govt department (which often no longer exists and its notional successor department is not interested in investing time making deliberations on archival material -- easier just to say NO quickly). If the material is legally out of copyright, I have a chance of getting it. If it's not, then I suspect it will just be a time-consuming but ultimately unsuccessful run-around to try to get it CC-licensed (I've yet to have any success at that sort of thing despite an official govt policy on open data!). However, for the Qld Govt Gazette, I do have some good news. It is available online from 1859 to 1900 but it is a bit difficult to use (slow and searching doesn't seem to work very well). I find it easier (but bad for my download quotas) to download individual PDFs (which are huge -- not the 20M or so they say but more like 200M) and work with them locally. The OCR-ing is sort-of OK but some searches will fail to find things that you expect to be there and so you have to find things by reading it. So, better than looking at microfilm at the archives, but still quite frustrating at times. Kerry (talk) 06:11, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
FWIW, I suggest if you are downloading the QGG PDF files, user a PDF tool that will search across multiple PDF files. I downloaded this free tool based on this advice and find it quite useful. Kerry (talk) 06:17, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
I'd be willing to help, ( I also have the download limit issue) I understand the archive system a little, anything under 30 yrs that you need help email or hard copy contacting & making info requests for keep me in mind. --Andys'edtits (talk) 17:15, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
I am currently in the process of getting a 1902 division map digitised; it is the only pre-1903 map (when the divisions become shires) that I have found for the whole of Queensland. It is out of copyright. Watch this space .... Kerry (talk) 20:31, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
Local government areas (municipalities, shires and divisions) in Queensland, March 1902 Just arrived today! Now to work out what to do with it! Kerry (talk) 06:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
It's not perfect. It was stored folded so it has split along some of the fold lines as is evident when you view it 1-to-1, but still ... 06:57, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Hi Kerry, thanks for your Xmas wishes, I hope you had a good one. Thanks to you also for your contributions during 2013. Have a great New Year.
Diverman (talk) 19:52, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
Toowong Cemetery
Hi Kerry, I was going to go into the Notable people interred section on the Toowong Cemetery article and do some culling of that list but noticed you have added a couple of more names to it so have not touched it.
The reason I was going to trim it back is because there is a category for the burials at that cemetery and the current list was starting to look cumbersome. Seeing as you and I seem to have by far the most edits for Toowong Cemetery I was just wondering what your thought are......
Hope you had a great Christmas and wishing you an even better new year.
Hi, Rocketrod1960! Good question and one that has troubled me too. According to WP:NOTDUP it's quite acceptable to have a list and a category because they serve different purposes and that's not a reason to delete one or other. There are 97 members of the Category and about 28 (by quick count) in the list. One of the list members doesn't have an article (and therefore can't be in the category), but all the other people in the list do have an article and I assume (haven't checked) that those articles are all in the category (or could be put into the category if not already there). So, what to do? Options I can think of:
Put all the articles in the category into the list to make them more consistent. If so, the list really becomes too long for the article so we'd probably need to put the list into a separate article "List of notable people buried in Toowong Cemetery" and link to that from the "Toowong Cemetery" article.
Perhaps the people listed in the article should just be the "most notable" ones, but then how does one decide which are most notable?
Just put the people who don't yet have an article in the list in the Toowong Cemetery article and link to the Category for the rest. Currently the Toowong Cemetery article has a link to the Category but without any explanation. It might be better to be explicit and say "A list of people buried in Toowong Cemetery can be found in the Category:Burials at Toowong Cemetery and in the list below". Of course, to put people in the list we'd have to think they were notable enough that one day someone might write an article. There's about 40,000+ people buried in Toowong so we don't want them all appearing in the list!
Do nothing and don't worry about it (which is more or less what I've been doing so far)
Another thought is that we dump the category on the grounds of WP:DEFINING as it's hard to argue that someone is "defined" by being buried in a particular place or that this is part of their notability, and replace it with a "List of" article. But if we want to go down that path, then it begs the question about all the other Burial categories, in which case maybe we need to raise the question at some higher level in the category tree. Then I looked at the category tree. What a mess! Burials in Toowong Cemetery is a sub-cat of Cemeteries in Queensland (that is, people are in a place category!). Cemeteries in Queensland is a sub-cat of amongst other things Visitor attractions in Queensland. So we have dead people who are visitor attractions?! Kerry (talk) 07:57, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi again Kerry, I now have a headache thanks to you and all those options!! But what I did was have a look at Rookwood Cemetery in Sydney. There are about one million burials there but list just 18 notable "inhabitants". I know most of the names listed there whereas a lot of the "notable" people interred at Toowong would be of little consequence to most people. By the way, Toowong has around 120,000 burials.
Maybe we could then say there are also X number of Brisbane Mayors, X number of Qld Premiers, and X number of Qld Governers.
Now here is my dilemma. I also the attitude that Australians know far too little of our history (And that does not mean just from 1770!) and so therefore we should include even more people so readers may click on the person to learn about his/her accomplishments.
Maybe the option of doing nothing for now sounds good. I do agree though that we should immediately change to "A list of people buried in Toowong Cemetery can be found in the Category:Burials at Toowong Cemetery and in the list below". If Thomas Mathewson is to remain in the list we need to find a couple of good references for him. I also think we should delete the "famous Queensland Photographer. (not even a grave marker though)" to simply "Photographer" or something close to that.
Well, since we agree on some better wording about the category and the list, I've implemented that (I can't see why that should upset anyone). But when it comes to pruning the list, I already see the problem. The set of names you suggest include a boxer and a cricketer I've never heard of and left out Forgan Smith and T.J. Ryan who I would have said are both very important. Now while I am not one to get too upset about such things, I am guessing that if we start eliminating people from the list, we'll upset someone. Rookwood Cemetery is interesting in that they don't have a category for burials, so there is no easy way of knowing what other inhabitants (interesting word choice!) might be notable. That's why I am tempted to push the list of notables in Toowong out into a separate article. Once it's in a separate list article, the list can be as long as anyone wants it to be and include people with and without articles (although I'd be tempted to prune out any additions without obvious notability). It's really only a problem when you get long lists inside non-list articles. So just have the heading "Notable people interred" and then a "Main article: List of notable people interred in Toowong Cemetery" and leave it at that. What do you think?
BTW You are right about the number of burials (there are 43000 people memorialised on about 25000 headstones, which are the figures which always sticks in my mind as people often ask us when we are going to photograph the headstones, as we have done in other cemeteries and that number is the reason I explain why we haven't done so!).
Kerry (talk) 23:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi again, leaving out TJ Ryan and Forgan Smith would have been a disaster I guess! Ryan's grave is just across the path from my grandparents (Douglas and Maud Easton) and since I was a toddler I marveled at his huge headstone and it's inscription. I have already added the references for Thomas Mathewson but deleted "famous" and the part about not having a headstone. I have taken hundreds of photos of graves and scenery at Toowong but I am now living in Geelong and that has ended my quest to also photograph every grave there.
And as for Peter Jackson, he was possibly the greatest boxer of the 19th century. Percy McDonnell is the only Australian Cricket Captain buried in Toowong. They were the main reasons I suggested keeping them.
Anyway as you have suggested, I am going to put up my original comments on the Talk page and let's see what suggestions are put forward.
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Well that was the largest category I have ever populated. I didn't check its non-river boundary to make sure buildings and things from that area were included. I am sure there are more transport-related articles that should be in there too. Just thought I would mention this so if your up to it you can check it has been comprehensively added to articles it should. - Shiftchange (talk) 12:23, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
You have been busy! Thanks! :-) One thing that I must admit is not enormously clear to me is whether Brisbane CBD is intended to be just the central suburb called Brisbane (which was mentally how I was treating it when I put it in the Suburbs of Brisbane category) or whether people perceive it as where the business premises area, in which case they are spreading out into Spring Hill, Fortitude Valley, etc. But I figured it was pretty odd that we have categories for many suburbs (OK, I put a lot of them there) but not for the central suburb. Once I get the Heritage Register stuff happening, there will be many more entries for the CBD category, but I am awaiting the return of public servants from summer holidays to hear about the progress on the CC-licensing (they've said they will do it, but still waiting on it to actually happen). Kerry (talk) 13:05, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
As a general guideline I think it has been established that we should follow the Australian Bureau of Statistics for boundaries. As I understand it Google Maps aligns with the ABS so it can trusted for suburb and other boundaries. I am confident that using suburbs as a category would be standard practice where as a vague business area would be problematic. I have thought we needed a category for the CBD for a while now. I did notice no other major Australian city has an equivalent category. We may need to create a sub-category Heritage buildings in the Brisbane central business district. Great news on the licensing front. - Shiftchange (talk) 14:19, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
AfC
I agree that workshop trainees are best not to use AfC. It has a number of issues working against making contributions. Perhaps the worst problem is seeing perfectly adequate articles rejected, usually by one person, without sufficient consideration in order to reduce the long queues. Maybe new article creation should not be a workshop priority or at least be one of a number of optional goals. One alternative could be to improve a stub article to start class. - Shiftchange (talk) 02:13, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
Indeed! They reject perfectly adequate stub/start articles; do they think they are assessing for GA or FA? The reason for rejection is very general; feedback needs to be more specific, so people know precisely what they need to fix to get the article accepted. Also, a series of different reviewers reject the article for different reasons, one says not enough citations, then the next ones says not notable enough. Of course, it doesn't help when we ask people to pick their own topics, some of which do turn out to be pretty marginal when it comes to notability. And trying to explain to a trainee about the sandbox is impossible; I suspect most of them can't find their draft article when they get home. What I was thinking of doing for the next lot of edit training (if and when?!) was to set up a bunch of stubs which I know are notable enough and for which there is good online material (e.g. Queensland Heritage Register entries, ADB entries, etc), and then do as you say, assign each one to a different stub and get them to take the article a little bit further. The only risk to this plan is that some other editor will come along and demand to speedy delete the stubs or dramatically expand them before the class! I have been told there is some template you can use to flag that an article is being developed in an educational context; that might mitigate the risk (assuming I can find out what the template is). I think the trainees will get a much greater sense of achievement if they can go home and point to a live WP article and say "look what I did". Of course it's more work to prepare for such a course. Kerry (talk) 02:54, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
Having a set of possible stub articles for working on is a great idea. We can start creating that list immediately, at say User:Kerry Raymond/Workshop stub articles. Criteria might be notability established, online references available and within the scope of WikiProject Queensland. Ideally there would be a several suggestions across the range of Category:Main topic classifications. Another possibility is for participants to address a specific cleanup task from this list. Some of these are much easier than others. Nearly all of them would require some guidance and tips on how to complete them efficiently. With this approach you have article creation for more confident/moderately experienced participants, article development for mid-level participants and minor maintenance tasks for the totally inexperienced. Maybe Template:Educational assignment is the template you were told about? - Shiftchange (talk) 04:27, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
Another criteria: a photo (suitably-licensed) for uploading to Commons. I would prefer to limit the stubs to the categories in the quieter backwaters of Wikipedia (avoid the shark-infested waters of ferocious editors), preferably categories that are low-risk in terms of creating controversy. Off the top of my head, I'd avoid anything to do with religion and politics (too much risk of POV), business (risk of conflict-of-interest), law & health (risk of mis-information), bios of living people (risk of litigation). History and geography are probably safe enough. Actually geography is pretty good, because we have:
Queensland Place Names (where is it, how did it gets its name)
Queensland Places (for some history)
census data
there's usually some kind of out-of-copyright photo on the State Library of Queensland site
and a bit of googling usually produces some kind of tourist information (there's a BBQ and a boat launching ramp)
and Queensland geography is not usually controversial and all trainees understand it before they walk in the door. And there are usually loads of redlinks hanging off all the local government articles for towns/suburbs/localities. And it is your special topic should any particularly hairy geography questions arise. Yes, I think you have found the template (good, because I didn't manage to find it). Kerry (talk) 05:02, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
So if we have a list of suggested articles provided at the workshop how will people be able to bring a relevant photo? Are you planning on distributing it to participants beforehand or are you saying we should only make suggestions which have a photo on WikiCommons? Many places which don't now have articles are remote and its unlikely people will have a photo of those places. Also in your last comment are you referring to articles to be created, existing stubs or both? Thinking about it, I think your preference to limit the range of articles to geography (and history) is a good compromise. By compromise I mean while possibly not suiting all workshop participants and not ideal for Wikipedia's best interests, it is best for training purposes. On the other hand if someone really wants to write an article about their favourite 19th century shearer or obscure law we should allow it. The reason being that any issues which arise can be instructive for everyone. Participants needs to understand collaboration includes conflict resolution and consensus making.
I'm currently going through family research for well connected ladies of country Australia - verifying and nullifying for their own benefit. I have no Wiki experience, however your VERY quick edit of Herbert Hyland is greatly impressive - keep up the good work! Canola88 (talk) 07:55, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Would you mind having a look at the recently created Feminism in Australia? I've given it a few hours and would value your input. Also would you mind if I archive this page and move your barnstars and awards to your user page? - Shiftchange (talk) 06:48, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Re: feminism. Firstly, you are very brave to tackle the topic! But it's certainly better than it was for your efforts. I think the Feminism in Australia article might be better if it stuck more to the issues, the legislative changes, etc rather than too much emphasis on the individuals and the organisations (I realise that is how you found it). Generally, it isn't possible to attribute any particular change to a specific individuals/groups -- many individuals/groups were probably pushing for similar things (albeit with different flavours). It's maybe OK to the mention the "first"s, e.g. first women in parliament, first .., as they are significant marks in the timeline that are often used in comparisons with other countries, and also those claims are usually more clear-cut (you were either the first female prime minister or you weren't). And, of course, there is the very unclear distinction between "feminists" and "high achieving women"? Are feminists those who were active in seeking political change on feminist issues, or do all high-achieving women who hold feminist views count? Can men who hold feminist views or supported feminist initiatives be included? And since when has the Women's Weekly had anything much to do with feminism?! These are the reasons I say you are very brave to tackle this topic! From a structural standpoint there are a cluster of articles and categories that are all somewhat overlapping, e.g. Category:Feminism in Australia is independent of Category:Women's rights in Australia, and similarly Category:Feminist organisations in Australia is unrelated to Category:Women's organisations in Australia. The article Feminism in Australia has a section on notable feminists (and mentions many more in the chronological sections), yet there is also Category:Australian women's rights activists and I think I saw a list article of some sort too. In that regard, it might be better to shift the lists of notable feminists and organisations off into list articles, but I think this article and related ones are places where it may be easy to be "too bold". I would suggest going slowly and seeking opinion on the Talk page. Kerry (talk) 07:55, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I've been following the incredible work you've been doing on Queensland localities for a while now, and I've suddenly got a lot more time on my hands with a decent internet connection and noticed how bad Wikipedia's coverage of places around where I grew up is. I can pretty easily see where to get most of the information I'd need from your references, but I can't for the life of me work out how you find the coordinates, generate the maps, and work out the "distance from X" section. I was wondering if you might be able to point me in the right direction? The Drover's Wife (talk) 17:10, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
I can probably help more if you are from Queensland than if you are from another state as I am using a lot of Queensland-specific resources. A lot of the sites I use can be found at User:Kerry Raymond#Places where I have keep my copy-and-paste citations for them to speed up the task (I just do a null edit at the start of each day of that page to force the accessdate fields to update to "today"'s date -- today may be yesterday because it's server time). To answer your specific questions:
for coordinates (also suburb/locality/town, LGA, and possible origin of name) [Queensland Place Names] -- if you grew up in another state, their Place Names board will have a similar thing or just use the overall Australian place names site but the state ones usually contain a bit more info
generating the maps - you don't have to generate the map - it generates itself - it is just a matter of supplying the coordinates in DMS into the [Template:Infobox_Australian_place/Blank#Pushpin_map_fields]] and making sure you put the correct abbreviation in the state field of the Australian place infobox -- "qld" in my case -- and the map with a pushpin in the right part of the state magically appears.
for the "distance from X" I use a feature in Google Maps - details here to turn it on - note that it only works with "old Google Maps" - it's then a question of sticking a pin into the two locations and the distance between them is displayed. I find it's a bit unreliable -- if it seems to stop working for you, close the browser window and restart it and that usually fixes it. You can also do it in Google Earth with its measure tool. I also use Google Maps by eye for writing geography about whatever rivers, mountains, highways, national park etc are in the area. Using both map and satellite mode, I find it useful to get some clues about what might be in the district that might be worth writing about in the articles, as often I write about places I have never visited and know nothing about.
I use the Queensland Globe] which is a set of layers over Google Earth which provides me with lots of things like boundaries of suburbs/localities for the adjacent suburb/locality info, also state/federal electorates.
I hope that helps. If you are looking at not-Qld, then I know some of the other states have similar tools, but I have no real exoerience with them. Happy to answer more questions if you have them. Kerry (talk) 22:08, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks so much - this is phenomenally helpful. I'm planning on working on Victorian localities so it's not the same, but what doesn't directly apply I've now been able to find alternatives for. I'll be able to do a lot with this. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:34, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! I had noticed you adding the links (I recently turned on some notification preferences that enables me to see what's being linked to pages on my watchlist). Re a photo. I am probably better place to get a photo; if only I could remember to take my camera with me when I am driving about for other purposes ... Kerry (talk) 21:50, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Thoughts on using electors instead of census data in some cases?
Hi Kerry, I had an idea about our problem with the ABS census districts and I'd like your opinion. I've noticed that the Victorian Electoral Commission releases data about the number of electors in every single locality, and have been thinking about whether this might be an alternative where the census districts are so whacked as to be unusable. I can see this as providing more helpful data in for a lot of small towns: for instance, on the article I just wrote, Bellarine, Victoria, saying there's 81 properties and 134 electors in those boundaries might be more useful than saying that the ABS throws it in with Portarlington, Victoria and another area and comes up with 3,580 people. What do you think? The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:22, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Short answer: yes. Longer answer. Currently Australia has a population of 23.5M of which 16M are eligible to vote which is a ratio of 68%. However, small country localities are disproportionately likely to be Australian citizens (compared with cities where recent immigrants go) and they tend to be older (fewer children), so I'd guess that the ratio of electors to population is probably more like 75-80% in a small country locality. If we go with the 68% ratio, that would estimate the population of Bellarine as 197 people. If we went with 80%, it would estimate the population as 167, with 75% it would be 179. Since we know the ABS is using 180 as their cut-off, it would suggest that 80% is probably a good ballpark. So as a proxy for actual numbers, it looks like an under-estimate of around 20-25% (mostly children). But, I am not convinced that readers of Wikipedia have any need for the exact numbers on census night in Bellarine (or anywhere else). Anyone with a genuine need for that level of detail would talking to the ABS directly. I imagine that most readers of Wikipedia use the population simply as a indication of "how big a place is it?" in which case #properties and #electors serves the purpose just as well as population data. And, as an aside, number of properties is an interesting data point as well for the reader. Out of intellectual curiosity only, do you know if it is a count of number of dwellings or simply the number of distinct addresses among the electors, that is, does it include empty dwellings and dwellings with folk who are ineligible for the electoral roll, e.g. non-citizens). I need to go and see if the Qld Electoral Commission report similar data as I am increasingly writing about these "too small" localities and sharing your frustration with the lack of census data. Kerry (talk) 22:34, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Can you point me at Victorian electoral data that you are talking about? I didn't manage to find it with a quick Google search. Thanks Kerry (talk) 22:39, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
I reckon you could leave in the property figures, even if we aren't 100% sure what they represent. They will be "near enough" and I think helps to give a flavour of the kind of place being described. I just looked at the PDF. I don't know if you noticed some localities are listed twice; I think because they are split between two electorates, in which case you would need to add them together. Kerry (talk) 02:17, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
That's because the VEC is much more precise than the ABS: where a locality contains more than one state electorate, local government area, or local government ward, they break down their figures into the amount of electors in the locality that fall into each. Thanks for your feedback, anyway - I'll start adding this information in. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:07, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Bertram Steele.
Hi Kerry, I was the person who originally added Bertram Steele as a notable burial but on the weekend I had a think about it and deleted him. I am guessing that because the first crematorium in Brisbane did not open till a few months after he died there was no choice but to bury him.
It is unusual though that they didn't just bury his wife in the same plot.
As it happens, I was going to State Library today so I had a look in the crematorium index. Unfortunately they index the date of death not the date of cremation, which wasn't helpful with trying to figure out when BS was cremated. Fortunately they retain the register numbers which appear to be chronological. So based on the dates of death of other folk with nearby register numbers (who I presume would have been cremated within a day or two of death), it appears BS was cremated around the 2nd week of February 1937, which doesn't yield any insights into why it happened. There is no mention of the Steele family in the newspapers of that time, but I guess exhuming and cremating deceased people isn't exactly something you'd announce in the newspaper. Maybe we will never know ... Kerry (talk) 05:50, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Now it's annoying me that we don't know why they dug him up!! I looked and looked through the old Courier Mails but no luck. I will have one more try tonight and if still cannot find anything i will move on.
Rocketrod1960 (talk) 06:54, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Since the info was in the ADB entry, I wonder where they got it from so I was looking at their Select Bibliography for any clues. Knowing he was cremated in 1937 means we can rule out anything published before this. And I am not sure it is the sort of information that would be in the RACI proceedings, so I think the info probably came from one of the first two books. As it happens, the first is available online and doesn't mention anything about burial and cremation and the second one is an unpublished manuscript (sigh -- that may be a bit harder to obtain!). Kerry (talk) 20:47, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
RFC at Wikipedia for page protection
Last call for opinions on RFC at Wikipedia page for page protection extension. User:Pundit is in support of increasing gender equality at Wikipedia and another user is opposed to User:Pundit's efforts. Cheers. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 17:28, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
survey markers of australia
Surveying and Geography of Q feel too far broad and generic to be correct, but typical of wp - there is nothing in the short term to help that. satusuro04:05, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
indeed, I was surprised to find nothing more refined for parent category but that may organically resolve itself in time. My need (the automation of the Qld heritage register) has a number of survey marks so I needed a category and that was the best I can do. Kerry (talk) 05:03, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
think the 'earlier fit' - because they were border pegs lets them get away with specificity of border markers - if you indeed have non state border pegs of notability/significance in the good old qld register - then I think there is a need for narrower cat - when I am on the ground in oz will investigate further (unless s-one else gets there before me....) best wishes from os satusuro06:16, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
sorry for the delay in replying, just saw your message.
The QHR listing data for the Victoria Tunnel came from (if memory serves) a QR tender document I happened to see at work, so I'll check the file on Monday and get back to you after then.
Cheers
Tim
Kerry,
there was finally a break in the traffic work-wise, and I've checked the QR tender which mentions the heritage listing of Victoria Tunnel, but it doesn't give any detail as to the name of the listing. Good luck with your articles.
Hi, just following up on the copyright bot notice. I see that you stated that the source for this was CC-BY, so is not a copyright violation. Can you name/link the source? The content, while free, does require attribution of the source for license compliance. If you let me know what the source was, I can apply the proper attribution template. In future, you can just name the source in the first edit summary and that will suffice for attribution. Thanks for your contributions! CrowCaw22:43, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
I don't follow the .au talk pages closely, but ping me when you start creating pages en mass and need help manually sorting issues. I'll be glad to help, because I do similar work. Stuartyeates (talk) 07:29, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, Stuart! I will. I am just a bit bogged down at the moment with preparing for a number of Wikimedia Australia events coming up in the next few weeks. Kerry (talk) 22:45, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm mainly just going through and writing ledes and wikifying and organising the QHR text, but please feel free to yell at me if I'm doing anything you'd rather I didn't. The Drover's Wife (talk) 16:13, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
Please keep up the good work. The ledes are somewhat minimal because generating them limits me to meta-data content (which varies from entry to entry). Only a human can pick out the key points from the text itself. Kerry (talk) 22:26, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
If you've got time, it might be nice to have a few more generated articles - I have very little to do at the moment so I'll probably get through the ones that are there on my own with a fine-tooth comb in a day or two. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:07, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
My pleasure! It's a project I find really interesting, and I'm just sad I'm not getting through them a bit faster - I was hoping to have more done by now but it's been a rough couple of weeks. The Drover's Wife (talk) 13:46, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Can I make one suggestion? I've noticed with the Toowoomba articles that the automatic transfer sometimes makes a bit of a hash of the wikilinks to other QHR buildings, and I've been fixing a few. It might be worth, if it isn't too much hassle, adding places from the same town at once - so e.g. with Laidley, we can make sure the wikilinks are pointing where they should in one hit and they don't get missed as we go through. Again, don't worry about it if it's too much hassle, just a suggestion. The Drover's Wife (talk) 17:45, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that's what I am trying to do for that very reason. It's just a bit hard with places like Toowoomba that have a lot of sites so you can't get them all loaded at the same time. But the other Laidley's are indeed coming up next. Kerry (talk) 18:56, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Help?
Hi Kerry, I'm running into a few headaches with articles where the Heritage Register entries are quite out of date, and I'm wondering if you're actually in the area and could maybe shed some light. Both the Toowoomba Technical College and G Wyman Building, Laidley articles state that they are still in operation when a Google search would suggest - but not definitively in reliable sources - that they've both closed, and several years ago at that. The Toowoomba Post Office says that it's likely to be sold soon, when Google suggests that it's not only been sold but redeveloped. I'm also not too sure about the current status of Toowoomba Permanent Building Society, of which Google is again unclear. This is less of a problem in cases like the latter, but in others - such as the Technical College - I'm not even sure if all the buildings referenced in the article are still standing. Any help you could give would be much appreciated. The Drover's Wife (talk) 14:42, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
I think many of the entries in the heritage register reflect things as they were at the time of the heritage listing. Some of them do have a paragraph (usually at the end of the history section) that seem to reflect some later change, but as you've seen yourself, many are out of date. Certainly the Toowoomba Post Office is not a post office any more; I was eating my breakfast there two days ago in a cafe that now operates out of one wing. I think this is where Wikipedia articles serve the readers as anyone can update the WP articles to reflect changes (so do go ahead and update the articles if you have sources discussing current uses). However, the QHR don't list things that are completely gone; they do remove them from the register after a while; I guess they wait until it's clear there will be no attempt to reconstruct them. For example, I notice that the Caboonbah Homestead quietly disappeared from their website in the last year or so having been destroyed by fire in 2009 and attempts to raise funds to reconstruct it seem to have been unsuccessful. Of course, we don't have to remove the corresponding articles from Wikipedia, because the infobox being used has a date field for "demolished" and "delisted" covering both possibilities separately or together so we can retain the articles. I might ask the QHR people if they would give me the text for the delisted places so we can still tell their story on Wikipedia, but maybe after I've dealt with the existing ones! For example, last weekend I found the heritage-listed Men's Toilet, Russell Street, Toowoomba was gone and roadworks taking place there but I have found some newspaper articles [1][2][3] saying it has been removed temporarily and will be reinstated after the work is finished, so I presume it will remain on the heritage register. Kerry (talk) 22:32, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for catching and sourcing the Men's Toilet one - that was one I hadn't picked up yet! I don't suppose you'd happened to know of any citations for the others? The Technical College is one where it'd be particularly good to make some kind of update, because so much of the text reflects its then-open status. It would also be fantastic if we could get our hands on the text for the delisted places - that's a great idea. The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:03, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
I've found a few helpful things, and these situations just got a whole lot easier more generally, thanks to the kind soul on AWNB who just pointed out how I could get Factiva access back, but this and this is throwing me in the case of the Technical College. I can't work out exactly where these fit in with our article: I can't work out which bits got demolished, which bits were converted into the SES facility, and if the latter was also part of the former. Hoping your local knowledge might come in handy here. And now I discover Toowoomba Foundry is about to be partially demolished to become a Bunnings, and Defiance Flour Mill, Toowoomba closed in 2012 and is also going to under go major redevelopment. This is proving to be a little bit of a challenge! The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:00, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Thinking about this further, I wonder if a solution might be to just delete the "description" section from the technical college, mill and foundry articles - those ones where the changes are quite large. In each case, it's really not clear in reliable sources (or likely to become so) exactly which parts of the listing are still intact, and it appears that there either has already (the mill) or will be imminently (the foundry) major changes to the heritage fabric of the building. In each case, we're going to have real trouble updating this section to determine what has actually changed from when the listing occurred in the absence of a re-evaluation from the Heritage Register, where if we cut the "description" section, the "history" sections could be easily updated and the "criteria" section could be left intact. The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:42, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't think deleting stuff is the solution. Firstly (whatever our doubts) we have sourced material so it can stand. If someone has more info, then they can update it. If we delete it, then the whole issue is forgotten about because nobody will see the need to update something that they cannot see at all. I'd really expect we would find some kind of newspaper article about closures and reuse, but just at the moment I'm moving house so a bit time-challenged to look for it. Kerry (talk) 08:33, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
The Defiance Flour Mill seems to be still there (drove past it on the weekend). Not sure what if anything it is being used for. Just FYI, I'm not a Toowoomba local; I was just up there to do edit training on Thursday/Friday so we took some QHR photos as part of the process. To me, the technical college looked as it always has from the street, but I can't say about what may have happened to the stuff out the back. But since you require permission to demolish anything covered by a heritage listing, I would have thought the heritage listing would have been updated in that circumstance. But I don't think you have to seek permission to simply reuse the building in a different way, which would therefore not result in an update to the register. Kerry (talk) 08:40, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, Ser Amantio di Nicolao, for your kind words and your helpful edits. If you are interested in getting your local governments to do something similar, then it's probably worth knowing it took me a few months of emails, then phone calls, then face-to-face meetings to get the Qld government to agree to do it (even though there is an official open data policy for the government). I sensed concerns that the data would be somehow misused, even though I was entirely up-front about what I intended to do with it (create Wikipedia articles). Then it took several months before they actually made the data available as a single giant XML file. It then took me a couple of months to write scripts to extract the content and convert it into a series of Wikipedia articles that you are now seeing me roll out. So, you probably need to do a bit of lobbying of your local state governments to get the ball rolling. Point out the economic benefit of tourism to small towns if their heritage was better promoted through Wikipedia, one of the world's top 10 websites, as I am sure many small USA towns are like our small towns, often struggling economically as people move to the larger cities and many are increasingly dependent on being attractive destinations to "grey nomads" (retired people travelling the country over a period of years in caravans and RVs who often tend to be interested in history and heritage). Kerry (talk) 03:03, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
Interesting - I hadn't considered it so much as a tourism idea. What I do believe, having watched the National Register of Historic Places WikiProject for some time now, is that local history articles are a very good way to get people involved in editing. Articles about larger cities may seem somewhat remote. Articles about smaller locations, or perhaps buildings within those towns, have a great deal of "hey, I know that place!" potential. And I think that if people see an article about a place that they know, it might foster some interest in their becoming editors. Especially judging by the local historical society brochures I see when I travel... --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa.06:27, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
Hi Kerry. I see Ser Amantio di Nicolao beat me to it with the barnstar. I have really enjoyed reading your recent articles on historic houses and other heritiage-listed buildings in Queensland. They are well presented and full of interesting details. I have added several of them to WikiProject Architecture (including "historic-houses" where appropriate) as I am sure many more of those who are interested in architecture would like to see them too. Well done and keep up the good work! --Ipigott (talk) 09:36, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
It's so good watching this project take shape - I've been checking your contribution history every day to see what new ones have gone up, and it's always interesting to read them as they come across. I haven't been able to do as much on the articles as I'd like because I did my back in and can't sit up for very long at the moment, but I really look forward to doing a bit when I can. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Hello. I am very sorry about those messages caused by my use of Page Curation. It appears that due to your autopatrolled status, when I accidentally marked the articles as un-reviewed, you were notified. Have a great day! :) --Zhantongz (talk) 06:12, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for putting back in the references to a industrial waste incident in the suburb undoing a suspected "white wash"
As the original contributor I've also put back in the orignal text (although a little less tabloid). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cabcat (talk • contribs) 00:37, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Mowbray Park
Hi Kerry, this article seems a little confused - its title suggests the heritage listing is about the war memorial, the article suggests it's mainly about the park, and the official title in the sidebar seems to suggest that it's both. If there weren't already an article on the park I'd move it, but I think most of the current content should be at Mowbray Park, Brisbane with a section or breakout article on the memorial. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:21, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I managed to overlook the park article until after I had uploaded the other. Unfortunately I am away from home and doing everything on my iPad over a dodgy 3G connection which is not an optimal editing experience and also means I am without a few key spreadsheets that help me avoid those problems. So I will have to merge the two articles but I will wait until I am back home with a better editing environment. This is actually the case where my local knowledge works to my disadvantage. To me, the place is all about the war memorial because it is where our Archie Raymond is commemorated. Kerry (talk) 18:41, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Maybe it's worth a split then? This is one of relatively few war memorials that's included within a larger listing rather than being listed entirely on its own, and we've got enough content for both. The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:29, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for making a grand contribution of the heritage and history of Queensland. No need to have kittens over the QHR rollout, as its progressing smoothly. Shiftchange (talk) 12:20, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Hi Kerry, you wrote: "I have just created Allison Engine Testing Stands based on the Queensland Heritage Register entry, so please add anything more you might have on the subject. Kerry (talk) 21:51, 30 December 2014 (UTC)" Thanks for that. We do have some info, soon to be published as part of the new heritage museum at Eagle Farm Airport on site and on the web which will cover the convict farm, Female Factory, and WW2 including Allison Testing Stands. I'll wait till that's all in place to simplify referencing. Robertwhyteus (talk) 22:25, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Hi Kerry,I was just looking at the Nudgee Cemetery website (www.nudgeecemetery.com.au/)and noticed that there is now a crematorium there and they call it "Nudgee Cemetery & Crematorium". I do think the article needs to be renamed and also have a redirect for "Nudgee Cemetery".
Seems reasonable to me. There might as well be a redirect for Nudgee Crematorium as I guess sooner or later that will appear in some article. And a happy new year to you too! Kerry (talk) 08:31, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Great work filling out this list, Kerry. Thankyou. :) And hang on... you're that Kerry Raymond...? Small world! :P FiggyBee (talk) 14:15, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
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