Language desk
< October 28	<< Sep \| October \| Nov >>	October 30 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

October 29[edit]

original language of the natives of CYPRUS[edit]

is there such a language?
is it a semitic language?
is there a group in the island CYPRUS who still speaks this language?
what language was spoken in this island in the bible age? (bronze age).
thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.177.24.234 (talk) 07:30, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

From Cyprus#history

The island was part of the Hittite empire during the late Bronze Age until the arrival of two waves of Greek settlement.[31] The first wave consisted of Mycenaean Greek traders who started visiting Cyprus around 1400 BC. A major wave of Greek settlement is believed to have taken place following the Bronze Age collapse of Mycenaean Greece in the period 1100–1050 BC, with the island's predominantly Greek character dating from this period.

Seems we don't know who was settling it when the Hittites arrived, so the natives farmers can have been semitic or Indo-European, or another mediterranean population like the basques. --Lgriot (talk) 08:49, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See Eteocypriot language. The languages spoken in the island now are Greek and Turkish. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:56, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Whao, well done, Ghmyrtle, that is a pretty neat answer. --Lgriot (talk) 14:39, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Biblical times extended into the Iron Age, during which the Phoenicians founded colonies on Cyprus, including a colony at Larnaca known in ancient times as Kition, from which a Hebrew name used for Cyprus, Kittim, may be derived. The Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) was written at the height of Phoenician influence in Cyprus, so Phoenician (a language very similar to Hebrew) was, alongside Greek, one of the important languages on Cyprus when the Hebrew Bible was written. Marco polo (talk) 15:33, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The earliest human habitation of Cyprus dates back over 10,000 years. Nobody knows who those people were, and their language is certainly no longer spoken. Looie496 (talk) 21:07, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Linguistic research methods[edit]

All scientific discoveries must be verifiable. Let's say I am a linguist. I have found a very weird language spoken in the deep jungle of Blah Blah Island by only five very old users, e.g., This language does not have integers! They only have words for very wacky things such as 2/7 + 3/11i, e and pi.

I have made recordings and I also compiled a dictionary for their language so I am pretty sure their language does not have "one, two, three". How do other linguists verify my finding? I mean if I were a dishonest researcher, I could remove all records that contains integers. "I have two goats! Last summer my third son killed one sheep!"

It is very unlikely that another linguist is willing to go to Blah Blah Island and spend five years to learn from them. How do they verify my discovery? -- Toytoy (talk) 11:58, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If they cannot go themselves to verify, and you are very cunning and have created this language in a very logical manner, so that it is possible to communicate correctly without integers and if you have described how it is possible that they manage to express themselves logically and within the capacity of the human brain, then the linguistic community could be fooled into believing that such a language existed. You would have to be realistic and open, so for example, withholding your geographic position at the time of the study of this language would be considered unscientific, for that would be seen as a deliberate attempt to hide something, and prevent independant verification. However, I assure you that in the modern world, such a discovery would raise academic funds and there would be 20 linguists and 30 anthropologists on that island within a year, looking for this same tribe. If they were never found, and if any discrepency in your study would be discovered, your research would be 'marked' as suspicious. --Lgriot (talk) 12:26, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Other linguists are always willing to doublecheck research results that seem outlandish, also (or especially) if it means going to an out of the way place to do so. (that means more prestige). Never have so many linguists flocked to the remote Amazon as after Daniel Everrett made highly publicized outlandish claims about the grammatical structure of the Pirahã language. Lots of linguists have been intent on disproving his claims.·Maunus·ƛ· 12:46, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

and if you make the mistake of calling them the Shelmikedmu tribe, we will all figure out the joke even sooner. Rmhermen (talk) 13:46, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Or the exotic Nacirema.·Maunus·ƛ· 14:09, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No mathematician is going to believe that the islanders have no words for integers if words exist for e and pi. I don't believe that linguists are significantly more gullible. I think they would just laugh at your research. They might believe you if you claimed that some superstition prevented the islanders saying the words for integers. Dbfirs 19:29, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mathematicians probably wouldn't believe that the Pirahã have no actual numbers but only rough approximations of few or many. They also don't have counting algorithms. Just because something sounds ludicrous it may still be true. (I agree that having othe number words and counting algorithms but not words for integers sound weird)·Maunus·ƛ· 19:37, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My incredulity was aimed at the idea of developing and using concepts (integers) without inventing words for them. I don't think people are capable of doing this, though I suppose the "words" could be the silent thoughts of one brilliant mathematician amongst the islanders, but then his spoken words for "e" and "pi" would not mean anything to the other islanders. Dbfirs 22:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The premise here doesn't really hold. It isn't true that all scientific discoveries must be verifiable. What is true is that it is unwise to make a theory dependent on a discovery that is not verifiable. Looie496 (talk) 21:02, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Could there be an unfriendly tribe that only speak a language known to the outsiders (e.g., a local tribal language or English) to outsiders and keep their own secret language to themselves? -- Toytoy (talk) 15:52, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I understand the question here, but i'll try: Yes, you can do that yourself, just get 3 friends, teach them an invented language, and refuse to teach it or speak this secret language in front of anyone else! What prevents you to do that? --Lgriot (talk) 13:09, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You misunderstand the social aspects of science. Scientific disciplines have built the notion of competitiveness into disciplines: In most cases the first thing that will happen to any new claim is that hordes of ravening colleagues will tear it into shreds looking for anything questionable/usable that might be turned into a publication of their own. scientists who make up data get slaughtered; scientists who use questionable data will quickly find other scientists gathering around it like vultures around an animal carcass. The difficulty of data collection is not an inhibition, it's a challenge - remember that Jane Goodall spent decades of her life hanging out with chimps in the African bush just to prove her theories, and astrophysicists have been known to send experiments off on rockets that won't even reach their destination before the original designers are retired or dead. Your linguist might enjoy a year or two of notoriety for a dramatic theory, but after that he'd drown in a sea of refutations. --Ludwigs2 17:37, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Spoken French comprehension[edit]

What are some strategies for improving comprehension of spoken French? I already can read and write pretty well. I tried the classic listening to native speakers (there are 3 Québécois students whom I know) but I find they unconsciously speak slower or enunciate more around me than they would otherwise. When I asked them about it they say they don't even notice they're doing it, unfortunately I'm still not at the level where I can understand more than bits and pieces of French television programs and such :( 24.92.78.167 (talk) 19:08, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Music is often a good starting point for listening skills — depending on what style of music you listen to, it can be either at the rate of the spoken word, a little slower, or quite a bit slower (due to drawing out of vowels and such). Lexicografía (talk) 19:19, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For example, Radio France International Web site for "The news in simple French" (le journal en français facile): http://www.rfi.fr/lfen/statiques/accueil.asp --Keguligh (talk) 22:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have constructive examples, but just wanted to stress that you're not alone ;). Because French is a syllable-timed language, segmenting words in running French speech is difficult for those of us who are native speakers of a stress-timed language like English. Liaison also adds to that difficulty. I've been learning French for over 10 years now and my listening comprehension for stuff like movies and TV is still pretty terrible... rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:30, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid the only way for achieving proficiency is to watch French TV programs daily for at least 2-3 hours while making an EFFORT - I'd like to stress this word a lot - to understand what they're saying. If you really already are proficient at written French, your listening comprehension should improve rather quickly. If you aren't that good, doing this would be a waste of time. --Belchman (talk) 11:01, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, using headphones is highly recommended. I seem to understand foreign languages somewhat better (and realize my own comprehension mistakes better) than when listening through loudspeakers. And as a final tip, you can also use movies with subtitles in their own language or music with lyrics or whatever spoken/text pair. First, try to understand the spoken language without looking at the text. Try really hard, three, four, five times... When you realize that it is impossible for you to understand what they're saying, look at the text and listen to the audio again while trying to explain WHY you didn't understand it in the first place. If you're stubborn enough, you'll end up understanding the language you want, believe me :) --Belchman (talk) 11:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(It's me once again...) Another thing that I forgot... learn IPA and use a dictionary to learn the EXACT pronunciation of words. That will help you a lot too. And when you speak French, try to pronounce perfectly, without an accent. The better you pronounce, the better you'll understand. --Belchman (talk) 11:51, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with watching French TV - if you're Canadian (and if you know people from Quebec I suppose you might be), there should be plenty of French channels to watch. Children's shows are a good place to start (especially if you can also watch them in English, like Caillou or Petit Ours/Little Bear). Game shows are good too. I also find it helpful to listen to French radio, like CBC/SRC. It's more difficult than TV though, because you can't see what they're referring to. But remember that if you are trying to speak with a Parisian accent, Quebecois French is somewhat different, so you might want to watch or listen to stuff from France instead. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As well as the RFI journal français facile podcast (which comes with a transcript) you can download all of their news broadcasts at [1]. These are great to listen to on headphones if you do a lot of walking or travelling. They have tons of other podcasts too [2]. Tinfoilcat (talk) 19:54, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology and meaning of scradging[edit]

Resolved

I have come across the word scradging whilst reviewing the unpublished memoirs of a local (East Anglian) man. The work is intended to be published outside wikipedia (though some of this work may end up in wikipedia). In context, whilst discussing the repairing of the banks of the River Great Ouse just before the 1947 floods,

“

Scradging gangs - normally four men - each take a stretch of bank, say a hundred yards at a time. One man digs big chunks of turf out below the bank on the land side. Two men each carry turf up to the top of the bank. There the fourth man precariously packs these turfs in a line all along the bank top to raise it by three or four inches. If they've time - usually never - they repeat the process adding a second line along the top.

”

— John Kisby 2010

I could not find the word in the OED (online ed.) nor in Wright, T (1857). Dictionary of obsolete and provincial English. 1. H. G. Bohn. Scradging is mentioned once in Bedford level Corporation (1965) The account of John Waddington, Esq p. 21. Has anyone got a reference for the etymology and the definition of this word scradging? --Senra (Talk) 20:44, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The earliest definition I can find comes in Robert Forby The Vocabulary of East Anglia (London: J. B. Nichols, 1830) vol. 2, p. 290: "SCRADGE, v. to dress and trim a fen-bank, in order to prepare it the better to resist an apprehended overflow. All loose materials within reach are raked together; and such additions as are to be had are procured, and so applied, as to heighten and strengthen the upper part on the side next to the flood". Forby doesn't venture an etymology; something to do with scratch perhaps? Difficult to see the semantic connection though. Antiquary (talk) 21:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe related to cadge? Etymonline says an earlier incarnation of cadge meant to fasten or tie, and its current meaning of begging or scrounging fits in with the "all loose materials within reach". There's also scratch up, as in to scratch up money, that is, obtain from any diverse sources. 81.131.60.13 (talk) 05:05, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you both of you. Incidentally, and just for completeness, I found the word scradge in Wright. Of course, like an idiot, I was previously searching Wright for scradging --Senra (Talk) 11:29, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tried to find you etymology from the OED, but my Second Compact Edition (1994) doesn't include "scradge" either. Nyttend (talk) 12:08, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Accents[edit]

Why do members of the traveling community have a different accent to the people in the area they are living even when they have lived there all their life. I would imagine years ago it might have something to do with living in a closed community (for want of a better word) and having little or no interactions with non travellers, but now they go to the same schools and play with the settled community. Mo ainm~Talk 21:21, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what the question means. What is "the travelling community"? HiLo48 (talk) 21:25, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the UK - and, I assume, Ireland - the term is used as a synonym for travelling Romani people, Irish Travellers, or both. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I thought that was a possibility, but was confused by the expression "even when they have lived there all their life". Are such people still "travelling"? If so, it's another wonderful example of the occasional silliness of English. HiLo48 (talk) 21:40, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah sorry, I meant Irish Travellers. Traveling community is the PC name used to describe them even though very few still travel as a way of life.Mo ainm ~Talk 21:42, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, so it's the silliness of PCness. Now I get it! I reckon that when kids grow up in a community speaking a totally different language from their parents, they end up with no accent (from the perspective of other locals), but when the parents and the local community speak the same language, but with different accents, the kids end up with an interesting mix of both accents. Totally WP:OR work there, but it's an idea. HiLo48 (talk) 21:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I live in a town in northern England. Both my daughters were born here and have lived here all their lives, but although they have a generic northern accent they do not have the distinctive local twang, almost certainly because my husband and I both come from elsewhere in the north and don't have it either. (This isn't just my perception - both girls have been teased at times because their speech is different from that of the majority of kids at the local school.) A friend of theirs, though, moved to Aberdeen with her parents at the age of 8 and now sounds thoroughly Scottish and very different from her English mum and dad. I have worked with traveller families in the past, and know how close-knit their communities are, how isolated from the local mainstream, and how resistant to outside influence. OR, but I would surmise that the latter is why traveller kids speak the way their parents and other members of their close community speak, and don't adopt the protective coloration of a different local accent, even when they were born in the locality. Our daughters' friend, however, thrown into a peer group where an English accent was a real hindrance to assimilation, and with no distinct alternative community vying for her loyalties, adopted protective coloration within months. Ka renjc 22:17, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I would guess that the size of the cohort with the same accent as the parents would be significant. If it's just the parents who are different, there would be little hope of survival of their accent, but if it's a big extended family and friends, yes it would remain. HiLo48 (talk) 22:24, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's a theory that children learn language more from other, slightly older children than from their parents. If these Travelers live in a residentially segregated setting, then their children will grow up surrounded by other Traveler children and will pick up their accent. It may not matter that they go to school with non-Travelers. They still come home to a Traveler neighborhood, where they might face shunning if they took on the accent of the surrounding non-Traveler community. A similar thing could happen without residential segregation if non-Traveler children ostracize Traveler children, who are then forced to associate only with other Traveler children. It is hard to imagine a distinct accent surviving without geographic or social exclusion of the Traveler community. Marco polo (talk) 23:05, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the UK, Travellers tend to live in out-of-town "camps" (a trailer park might be the US description) on areas of land set aside by local authorities for them. So yes - an isolated community. Alansplodge (talk) 23:45, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]