Language desk
< May 11	<< Apr \| May \| Jun >>	May 13 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

May 12[edit]

Pat in the middle[edit]

Like so many times before, I used to phrase "pat in the middle of" and then started wondering if it really is a valid phrase, or something I just made up. Google didn't turn up anything. Can anyone help? Have you heard this being used elsewhere? Sample sentence: "When you don't sweat for a week pat in the middle of summer, you begin to feel like something's amiss." Thanks in advance. 117.226.250.244 (talk) 07:26, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's related to "be pat", "pat expression", etc. — kwami (talk) 08:22, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it's familiar, but there was nothing in the OED. But I was able to find a few things:

Wauwa Pease says of the strategic position of the Pirates in the dining room: “They have taken the table near the upper doorway so they can make a speedy exit in case their lair is raided.” Of course, the Wauwas stand pat in the middle of the dining room, having nothing to fear.

—"At the Wauwatosa Table" (1922 Sept 22), City Club News, Milwaukee, vol viii no. 2 p. 7

Candidates in gubernatorial campaigns must stand pat in the middle, trying to push their rivals off the center line, charging the opponent with either left or right extremism.

—Newsweek (1962)

In Ogoni[land], Shell locations lie pat in the middle of villages, in front and back gardens – and that should lay a particular responsibility on Shell to be absolutely cautious in its operations.

—Ken Saro-Wiwa (1995), A Month and a Day, p. 112

I think I'll add those to Wiktionary. — kwami (talk) 08:48, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is a new expression to me - it seems to be US English. The equivalent UK English would be 'slap bang in the middle of'. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 09:02, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's used in the US as well. (though also 'slap dab'?) Sounds highly colloquial, though, and this doesn't. And 'slap' and 'pat' are of course semantically related. — kwami (talk) 09:30, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Smack dab in the middle" (another kind of slap, curiously) or "Spang in the middle" are more common around my area of the US, though definitely informal usage. -- Elphion (talk) 17:13, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can see lots of potential for confusion with "slap dash". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 21:42, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, Smack Dab in the Middle is a great Jesse Stone song. --Trovatore (talk) 21:58, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The term "stand pat" comes from poker.[1] Why "pat" is part of that is kind of unclear.[2] In any case, to "stand pat" means to keep the cards you've got rather than discarding and drawing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:39, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_drifters/up_on_the_roof.html.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:50, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Isambard Kingdom Brunel[edit]

How do you pronounce his first and his family name? --KnightMove (talk) 08:27, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've always heard it as IZ-uhm-~~bard~~bahd broo-NEL. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 08:44, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Search Youtube for Isambard Kingdom Brunel. (I can't seem to get the link past the spam filter) There isn't much variation in pronunciation. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 08:50, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Added to article. — kwami (talk) 08:57, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I added the pronunciation back in 2006 (either from an old Daniel Jones or BBC), odd that it fell out of the article.--Cam (talk) 14:32, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing ever just "falls out" of our articles. They're either cruelly and callously ripped out, causing immense pain; or they're surgically excised with a good anaesthetic explanation and lots of pethidine. :) -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 21:40, 12 May 2012 (UTC) [reply]

I have occasionally heard it pronounced EYE-zuhm-bard, but I'd agree that the pronunciation you hear most often is the one Jack suggested. Grutness...wha? 01:22, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If a source is needed, Webster's New Biographical Dictionary gives (only) Jack's pronunciation of "Isambard". Deor (talk) 01:26, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you all. But the old and the new version are not identic yet:

[ˈɪzəmbɑ(ɹ)d ˈkɪŋdəm brʊˈnɛl]

/ˈɪzəmb[invalid input: 'ar']d br[invalid input: 'oo']ˈnɛl/

Can we reach consensus about the r- and the u-sound? --KnightMove (talk) 05:38, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think these differences fall within the scope of normal variation between speakers. 86.181.205.76 (talk) 11:51, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Standard" UK pronunciation would not have an "r" in "bard" -- it's more like "bah-d", and as Jak is of Oz, where "bard" is also generally non-rhotically as "bah-d", I would not mark the sound as "ar" in the IPA. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:57, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My "bard" was not meant to indicate a rhotic regime. I've changed it to bahd to be clear (as in, the Bahd of Avon). -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 17:34, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For the "u", I read Jack's key as indicating the "oo" in "food" and not the "oo" in "too", simply because it's "brunel" and not "bru-nel", so the original IPA is not inconsistent with Jack's explanation. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:01, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's both, because my "oo"s in "food" and "too" are identical. Now, my "oo"s in "foot" and "book" are different (but the same as each other, if you get my meaning), but they weren't what I was thinking of. The first syllable of Brunel is the same as the word "brew". I really ought to get around to becoming an IPA-ophone. -- ♬ Jack of Ooze ♬ ^{[your turn]} 17:31, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the feeling that we're within the normal variations of pronunciation here, and probably over-thinking this too much, but for what it's worth I would go more towards the "foot" and "book" pronunciation. I live quite close to Brunel University, and locally that is pronounced 'bruhNELL' with an unstressed first syllable. I guess that's something like the local pronunciation of Marylebone as 'maa-bn'. So, to sum up: If I'm in conversation with the Queen, it's "brooNELL", but dahn the rub-a-dub wivv me old china it's "br-NELL" or "bruhNELL".

Apologies that I don't speak IPA. I hope you can make some sense of it anyway. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 20:56, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Now that I'm back among my books I can report that my source was BBC Pronouncing Dictionary of British Names, 2nd ed. (1983) under "Brunel" (p. 37).--Cam (talk) 01:58, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pleasantly surprised[edit]

What is a word that would mean pleasantly surprised? Not just surprised, but something that much pleases a person. Example would be where a man proposes to a lady. While she may be surprised, she is also flabbergasted (pleasantly surprised).--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 13:51, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delighted? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 13:59, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

While they're not all entirely appropriate for the exact situation described, how about "thrilled", "touched", "charmed", "enchanted", "taken"? Tevildo (talk) 14:35, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am delighted in your answers. Thanks gentlemen.--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 18:23, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Or "overjoyed", perhaps. --Viennese Waltz 07:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Giddy would be loosely possible. Breathless, too, maybe. In either case you'd probably need to provide context to get the full idea across. --some jerk on the Internet (talk) 18:38, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Userpage Translation[edit]

The inactive user YellowMonkey has a picture on his userpage that says, "Đừng liên hệ với khỉ phản động ! Khỉ vàng là nhà chống cách mạng ! Ra lệnh của đản cộng sản và công an Wikipedia." What does this mean? Google Translate says it's "Do not contact the reactionary monkey! Golden Monkey is the anti-revolutionary! Ordered the police led the production and Wikipedia." Inter change able 18:54, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Vietdict.co is better than google. Dot contact the reactionary monkey! Yellow monkey is a counter-revolutionary! By order of the Communist Party and the Wikipedia police. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:45, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]