Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 September 23

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September 23

Word usage

How do I use the word utility? All I can think of, “Kitchen Utility/Utilities”, meaning cutlery, cookery, cups, and so on… Where else could I use this word; I require an an understanding with examples please. 116.58.200.120 (talk) 02:38, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

I think you mean "kitchen utensils". StuRat (talk) 03:28, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

There are many sense of the word "utility". Here are a few:

A) As a synonym for "usefulness": "I find great utility in this program."

B) In the special case of a PC utility: "The defrag utility should be used when disk space runs low."

C) For utility companies, such as electricity, gas, water/sewer, and maybe phone: "Have you paid the utility bills yet ?".

D) As the U in SUV: "I own a Sports Utility Vehicle." StuRat (talk) 03:26, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Utility (disambiguation) has a lot of meanings. The top two are usefulness (an economics concept, primarily) and electricity, gas, etc. Nyttend (talk) 12:56, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

One missed from that page is Utility furniture and Utility clothing (now added). Alansplodge (talk) 16:47, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Utility belt doesn't redirect to Batman's utility belt. (Must be a plot by the Riddler.) Clarityfiend (talk) 06:53, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Ack! That dab page is chock full of WP:partial title matches. I've demoted most of the entries to See also. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:02, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Public housing in the United Kingdom

Is "council estates" or "estates" at all known in Scotland, or is "housing scheme" basically the only term in use? Public housing in the United Kingdom uses the word scheme only seven times, and six of them are what we Americans would call "government programs"; only the first appearance (unsourced) discusses Scotland, and it's not clear whether this is the term or a term. I was recently chatting with an American familiar only with Scotland, and while he's spoken repeatedly of "housing schemes", he had no idea what I meant when I spoke of "council estates". I remember "estates" being in use in County Antrim when I was a child in the 1990s, but that was just for a summer, and we didn't spend much time elsewhere in Northern Ireland, let alone on Great Britain. Nyttend (talk) 12:47, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the term "council estates" always seemed like an odd euphemism. Might as well call them "committee mansions". StuRat (talk) 14:24, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

In UK English, the word "estate" just means "house" in many contexts, and not just "large property" as it does in the US. The term is less restrictive in the UK, for example estate agents broker the sale of houses. Council estates are so named because they were managed by County councils which were local government authority in the UK.--Jayron32 15:50, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

County councils still are local government authorities, but council housing is managed by city or district councils. I've never heard "estate" used to describe a house - in this sense it's short for housing estate, "a group of homes and other buildings built together as a single development," which can also refer to a private development. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 16:13, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Council estate is a perfectly common term in Scotland too; see e.g [1]. (And no, Stu, not remotely a euphemism: "a group of houses or factories built in a planned way".) Henry^Flower 15:10, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

See also Easterhouse#Housing and the modern estate and for landlord terminology [2], [3]. "Estate" means a person's property - e.g. "Estate in bankruptcy". The only circumstance in which the two terms would be equivalent would be if someone's property consisted of a house and nothing else.

Not just in U S English. An English house on half an acre (i.e. typical home with small garden) would not be called an "estate". If it was surrounded by a large area of land it could be (e.g. a country estate). See Estate (land). 81.151.100.223 (talk) 17:56, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

"Estate" in "estate agent" means real estate ("property consisting of land and the buildings on it [etc]"), whereas "an estate" in the UK originally meant a large property and still does - see The Angmering Park Estate for example; "a private, traditional agricultural and sporting Estate set in the heart of the South Downs National Park". During the 19th century, wealthy landowners near the big cities would sell up their parkland and agricultural estates to a property developer who would build a housing estate. In my part of London, some areas are still known by the manorial estates that once occupied them, for instance the Barclay Estate in Leyton was once the country home of a branch of the Barclays Bank family, they moved out in about 1900; almost all the houses are owner occupied, but were all built in a similar style before the Great War. A recent development for the well-to-do is a housing development with controlled access through gates - a gated estate. So a council estate is a housing development built and/or owned by a county or borough council. Alansplodge (talk) 19:33, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Looking at the etymology of "estate", the oldest meaning seemed to be a legal one, while the 'specific application to "landed property" (usually of large extent) is first recorded in American English 1620s': [4]. The modern meaning of "housing for the poor" isn't even listed there, being a recent euphemism. Note that this is sometimes used in the US, in a different form, where a trailer park will be called "(something snooty) Estates", or perhaps "(something snooty) Manor". It's even come full circle in the US, such that people who actually live in luxury housing don't want it named "Estate" or "Manor" for fear that people will think they live in a trailer park. Instead, they often drop such terms entirely, leaving it with just the proper name, such as The Watergate. StuRat (talk) 19:38, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Maybe because that "euphemism" is one that you've made up? The article Nyttend linked to would be some good basic research. Henry^Flower 19:46, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Not at all. If I wanted to know about public housing in the UK, I'd read that. If I want to know about the history of the word "estate", I go to an etymological source, and link to it, just as I have done. StuRat (talk) 19:51, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) ::What we are saying is that "estate" doesn't mean "housing for the poor", it has multiple meanings, you need to look at the preceding adjective. This private estate has no paupers. Alansplodge (talk) 19:51, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Of course it doesn't exclusively mean housing for the poor, any more than "special" exclusively means "mentally retarded" (although in the case of some "special counsels", one may well wonder). A euphemism is using a term in a different way than it has traditionally been used, to make something sound better than it really is. The non-euphemistic term would be "taxpayer-subsidized housing for the poor", if that's what it really is. StuRat (talk) 19:56, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

The point is, a council estate is subsidised housing, any other sort of estate is a different thing. And its not intended to make it "sound better than it really is", so its not a euphemism. Alansplodge (talk) 00:21, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Not mentioning that it is "taxpayer-subsidized housing for the poor" definitely does make it sound better, so why do you think it's unintentional ? Another feature of euphemisms is that they are difficult to understand unless you already know what they mean. In this case, "council housing" could mean housing for councilmen, for example, just as a "mentally challenged" person could be somebody of normal or even exceptional intelligence who performs mentally challenging tasks. For an example you may be less familiar with, what is "finely textured beef" ? Now if I called it "beef unfit for human consumption until treated with ammonia fumes", I bet you would know what it was. StuRat (talk) 01:13, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

It's not a euphemism. What he's telling you is that "council estate" is the term used in the UK for housing provided by the council for those who cannot afford a home of their own. It's understood in that context in the UK. Why you are trying to muddy the water, I don't know. Accept that it doesn't need disambiguation to make it clearer for you and move on. Akld guy (talk) 03:28, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

The (claimed) fact that you've used it there for a long time doesn't mean it's not a euphemism, just that it's an old one. For another old euphemism, we have salisbury steak, which is just a fancy term for a hamburger without the bun. StuRat (talk) 03:40, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

First you claim that it's a recent euphemism, then you claim that it's an old one. Which is it to be? Better to admit that you're completely wrong and bow to the superior knowledge of British English speakers. "Council estate" is not a euphemism, it's a neutral term for an area containing housing provided by the council. This sort of ignorance has no place on the reference desk, a place that is supposed to provide factual answers to questions. --Viennese Waltz 05:08, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

I didn't claim that it's an old one, I just said that if it is, that doesn't matter. I've clarified my post to show this, but it's all quite irrelevant to the point, in any case. Euphemisms can be old or new. StuRat (talk) 17:37, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Where does Stu say "council estate is a recent term"? Where does Akld guy (speaking from New Zealand) get the idea that "council estate" is the term used in the UK for housing provided by the council for those who cannot afford a home of their own? The Barbican Estate, (owned by the Corporation of London), would hardly be described in those terms. Many residents of these estates are private tenants, renting from people who bought leases on their flats. These estates are rather misleadingly called "ex - council estates" - misleading because, while many of them have been sold off to housing associations most have not. 81.155.220.132 (talk) 12:22, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Scroll up to where Stu says "The modern meaning of "housing for the poor" isn't even listed there, being a recent euphemism." Then you defeat your own argument by saying that the Barbican Estate would hardly be described in those terms (housing for the poor), but then refer to them as ex-council estates, because they were once houses for the poor but have been given a new upmarket life. Akld guy (talk) 13:00, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, except that I don't think the Barbican Estate ever housed council tenants. As far as I know it was always private housing. --Viennese Waltz 13:09, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Well of course, the word "estate" is no more a euphemism than the word "project". For the way the system works see Right to buy. The article is not as comprehensive as it might be, because only tenants of houses can buy outright (freehold). Tenants of flats must make do with a lease (usually 125 years). The Barbican is flats, so the only private tenants there are people renting from leaseholders. It was never "housing for the poor" - market rents were charged from the start. 81.155.220.132 (talk) 14:15, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

The word "estate" is used to indicate how the housing is laid out. The technical term for the type of tenancy is "affordable housing". This is not a euphemism - it is a less cumbersome description than "taxpayer - subsidised housing for the poor". The name for the subsidy is housing benefit. 92.8.220.234 (talk) 11:17, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Advocates of taxpayer subsidized housing for the poor don't want to remind taxpayers that they are paying the bills, hence the choice not to mention this unpleasant fact. This is a classic euphemism, just like saying "I'm going to the bathroom" doesn't actually mention that you are going to defecate or urinate. In both cases, the intent is use specific wording to avoid mentioning something unpleasant. "Council housing" doesn't make any mention of the "for the poor" part, either. "Affordable housing" is a bit closer to doing this, at least. However, there could also be affordable housing which isn't taxpayer subsidized, such as small, low-quality apartments in undesirable areas, where land prices are low. "Affordable" is also relative. That is, a millionaire might consider a less expensive mansion to be "affordable housing". Thus, this term is vague.

BTW, I may seem like an opponent of taxpayer subsidized housing for the poor, but I'm actually an advocate. I just also favor honesty in all discussions of the matter. StuRat (talk) 15:15, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Housing Associations also provide housing at subsidised rents. Wouldn't amending the description of the service provided to include the word "poor" be gratuitously offensive, like using the term "poor law" instead of "social security"? 92.8.220.234 (talk) 17:10, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Removing the word "poor" from the language won't eliminate poverty, and not talking about it may even allow it to persist longer. StuRat (talk) 17:42, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Another name for this type of accommodation is "social housing" [5]. You can't simply change the description to "poor housing" because that means something else. If you read the linked article you'll see that by no means everyone who lives there is poor - it's not like America where people are encouraged to leave the projects when they make good. Here, people are proud to be council tenants. One of the aims of Right to Buy was to create a mixed community, ending the ghettos of "sink estates". 92.8.220.234 (talk) 12:12, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

We have the same concept in the US now, with different prices for the same apartments, depending on income. So, some are taxpayer subsidized, and some are not. Rent control was a similar concept, but there the private owners are forced to subsidize the housing prices for their long-term tenants, in order to collect extreme rents from the new arrivals. StuRat (talk) 00:27, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

The discussion seems to have wandered. It's worth clarifying that, since Thatcher's right to buy policy, many council tenants bought their homes and then left. Those who now own the houses and flats may live in them, or may rent them out on the open market. Take Grenfell Tower for example: "A two-bed, one bath flat on the 18th floor was recently advertised for rent for just under £2,000 a month, not including bills."[6] Meanwhile, more and more people rent from private landlords, as both buying and acquiring social housing seem unattainable. If they cannot afford the full rent, part is subsidised by housing benefit or, more strictly speaking, Local Housing Allowance. The tax-payer subsidy is theoretically calculated on need, independent of how the housing was built. So a block of flats or group of houses built by the local authority (a council estate) is likely to contain owner-occupiers, council tenants (with a secure lease), and privately renting tenants (with less security). Carbon Caryatid (talk) 13:16, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

In Britain, the term "owner occupier" means someone who owns the freehold of their house and lives in it. In the case of a block of flats the freehold is (usually) owned by someone other than the people who live there, who may be

• tenants of the freeholder
• leaseholders of the freeholder
• tenants of a leaseholder

If the tenant is a tenant of the freeholder AND the freeholder is a local authority the tenant has the Right to Buy. What he will get is the freehold (or at his option a long lease) if he lives in a house or a long lease (if he lives in a flat). If the freeholder is not a local authority the tenant will not have a secure tenancy unless the building was transferred to a housing association before a date now long past and the tenant had a secure tenancy at the time of transfer. Secure tenants of buildings transferred subsequently only get assured tenancies, which are almost as secure but have diffrerences relating to succession rights and grounds for eviction. Nevertheless, housing associations often grant tenancies which are more secure than they legally need to be. Council tenants do not necessarily get secure tenancies - it depends on the terms of the agreement - however if the tenancy is secure it cannot be downgraded.

Local authorities are permitted to sell their stock to housing associations provided the Secretary of State and the tenants agree. Tenants who had the Right to Buy at transfer can exercise the option to buy from the housing association at any time - this is the Preserved Right to Buy. Apart from that, housing associations do not normally offer leases. All leases are secure - they are indefeasible until they fall in. There are provisions for them to be extended or converted to freehold. This last option is only available to tenants of houses. When a council tenant secures a lease or buys the freehold they are no longer a council tenant. 46.208.167.127 (talk) 16:57, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation of coyote

Modern dictionaries generally say that the first syllable of the word should be pronounced KY, but if I'm not mistaken, it was pronounced KOY at one time. Anyone have good knowledge about whether KY or KOY has been the most common pronunciation of the first syllable of the word at different times?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:13, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Spanish coh-YOH-teh. English kigh-OH-tee. Good enough? μηδείς (talk) 17:18, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

I've also heard it pronounced KIGH-oat in English, probably in old western movies. Not so much nowadays, I think. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:23, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

The second of User:Medeis's suggestions is how we say it in England, but the only time we see one over here is in Road Runner cartoons. Alansplodge (talk) 19:38, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

I was unaware that Americans pronounce the word "geyser" as guy'-zer until I tuned into Nasa's coverage of the Cassini landing. With the growth in popularity of overseas holidays English pronunciations of foreign words have changed. The Oxford English Dictionary lists coy'-ot for "coyote". "Don Quixote" can be Don Quix'-ot. "Dominica" can be Dom-in'-ica. "Marseilles" has changed from Mar-sales' to Mar-say' . The pronunciation of "Ibiza" has changed from eye-bee'-za to eye-beeth'-a. The pronunciation of "Buenos Aires" has changed from Byoo'-nos Airs to Bway'-nos Air'-es. The teatime cake treat is still mad-ear'-a, however, and the capital of Brazil still Ree'-o de Jan-air'-o. 81.155.220.132 (talk) 15:15, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

I was unaware there was another way to pronounce "geyser". The Wiktionary entry wikt:geyser gives (the non-rhotic version of) the American pronunciation as the first option for the British pronunciation as well; the other choice would be a homophone of "geezer", which I think adequately explains why we don't use it. Maybe "geezer" is not a highly available word for Brits? --Trovatore (talk) 19:51, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

See geezer. The two are indeed homophones here in the UK, but the opportunities for confusion are somewhat limited. Alansplodge (talk) 21:41, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

I think it's not so much about possible confusion as it is that geezer is a mildly offensive word. I hate to put it in those terms because the concept is so over-used, but as a practical matter, you don't want to provoke an emotional response when it's not intended. --Trovatore (talk) 22:06, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

I've visited the original in Iceland. There was a big queue of men waiting to be photographed standing next to the "Geysir" sign by their wives/gf. Iapetus (talk) 08:42, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

So, ironically enough, Yellowstone's possibly most famous attraction would qualify as an old geezer. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:10, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

South African English speaker chipping in. For me there are two distinct meanings and pronunciations of geyser; a "guy-zer" is a natural hot spring, and a "geezer" is an electrical device that provides hot water on tap. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:37, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

"Leave it aht, me ol' china." Martinevans123 (talk) 10:45, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

In the UK (especially London) a more recent meaning is that of a self-assured or maybe even aggressive working-class man, not necessarily old. So if you say someone is "a bit of a geezer", it can be a complement to some. A "diamond geezer" is a nicer version of the same. For those familiar with Only Fools and Horses, Del Boy is the archetypal "geezer". [7] We also have the water heater type of geyser (not so common now that most homes have central heating), which is a homophone too. Alansplodge (talk) 12:46, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

I see there is quite a split in the meaning of geezer between UK and North America. Maybe this is what dear Kim Jon-un really intended?Martinevans123 (talk) 12:55, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Hmm, yeah, I said in another thread that while "dotard" seemed a bit exotic, I couldn't really think of an exact synonym, but "geezer" is fairly close, though not perfect (it doesn't necessarily connote loss of cognitive power, more loss of intellectual flexibility). In the US, it is pretty hard for it to be anything but an insult. If that's not so in the UK, that might explain why it doesn't block that pronunciation of "geyser". --Trovatore (talk) 08:05, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

When was Buenos Aires ever pronounced byoo-nos airs? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:54, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't know, but you can find Rio Grande attested as /'raɪ.oʊ grænd/ RYE-oh grand if you like, though I'd rather you didn't. That's the pronunciation in a sea chanty: O, say were you ever in Rio Grande? Ohh-oh Rio! It's there that the river runs down golden sand, and I'm bound for the Rio Grande. I don't think it means the river that divides Texas from Chihuahua, but I'm not sure exactly what it does refer to. --Trovatore (talk) 19:39, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

KIGH-oat is still the pronunciation in my neck of the woods. I suspect the variation is more geographical than temporal (but no refs, sorry). -- Elphion (talk) 19:26, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Johnny Cash says "KIGH-oats" in this song.[8] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:36, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

But he pronounced it ky-OH-tee in El Viaje Misterioso de Nuestro Jomer (The Mysterious Voyage of Homer). Clearly a man who would do whatever the song/script required. Deor (talk) 21:33, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

The Warner cartoons have said it both ways also. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:55, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

As does Joni, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:48, 24 September 2017 (UTC) (... what a blissful way to spend five minutes at YouTube)

There's also "True Men Don't Kill Coyotes", by the Red Hot Chili Peppers, which uses the KIGH-oats pronunciation. --Jayron32 11:53, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

• KIGH-ote is marked as South-Western. Unless yer a cowboy, best to avoid it. μηδείς (talk) 22:49, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Fort Macleod ain’t exactly cowboy country, is it?? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:27, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Checking onelook.com and LPD it seems UK dictionaries mostly favour KOY, US invariably favour KY. That doesn't mean the British pronunciation is older. The difference is of course more obvious when the syllable is stressed.

kaɪˈoʊtiː	MW1 AHD1 Collins US CALD US and UK Macmillan US1 LPD UK3,US1
ˈkaɪoʊt	MW2 "Chiefly Western" AHD2 Collins US2 Macmillan US2 LPD UK4,US2
kɔɪˈoʊtiː	Collins UK3 Macmillan UK Oxford UK2 LPD UK1
ˈkɔɪoʊt	Collins UK1 Oxford UK1 LPD UK2
kɔɪˈoʊt	Collins UK2

jnestorius^(talk) 22:56, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

These "UK" prounciations are about as helpful as a US dictionary saying that Hedgehogs are called hejigs. The only pronunciations heard in the US are KIGH-oh-tee or KIGH-ote (in the SW). Anything starting with COY- is even worse than saying Eddinburrow. μηδείς (talk) 23:30, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

kigh-OH-tee, actually. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:45, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Bugs is right on the stress. μηδείς (talk) 16:25, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Probably not what Georgia Guy had in mind, but just for completeness, I'll point out that the Spanish pronunciation, roughly /kɔ'jo.te/ I think, is used when referring to, shall we say, informal carriage providers who smuggle people across borders for a fee (generally consensually; for the most part this is not human trafficking but just human smuggling, though they have been known to show limited concern for their charges' welfare when things go bad). --Trovatore (talk) 09:00, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Trovatore, The Spanish pronunciation of "coyote" is /ko'jo.te/; the first o is not colored /ɔ/, the vowels are identical in coloration. You do hear some change of coloration in front vowels, especially [e] when it appears in a closed syllable (one ending in a consonant). "Este" is pronounced /'ɛs-te/ because the first syllable ends in a consonant. But co-yo-te has no closed syllables, and no weakening of the vowels. μηδείς (talk) 18:07, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Interesting. Thanks. --Trovatore (talk) 19:08, 29 September 2017 (UTC)