Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2014 October 15

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October 15

What is the official name of New York City

Is the city officially called "New York," "New York City," or "City of New York?" Our article is a little ambiguous. The article titled is New York City, but the first sentence starts off with New York. Furthermore, in the box on the right with the images, the title is labeled "New York City."

We also have a page called Nicknames of New York City that implies that "New York City" is the official name.

The city's official website, www.nyc.gov, welcomes visitors to the "City of New York."

Lastly, what defines as a city's official name in USA? Is it the US Postal Service?

Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 03:18, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

You'll see a similar phenomenon for other large cities, such as Chicago and Los Angeles. New York is often used as synonymous with New York City, but "New York" is also synonymous with New York County, i.e. Manhattan Island. I don't see why the USPS would have any say in a city's name other than if there's some issue of ambiguity (which should already be alleviated by the use of zip codes). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:03, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Be careful about what you claim about things being synonymous. I live in Vermont. An hours drive from "New York" and I don't mean the city. Around here simply saying "New York" means upstate New York. And I suspect that many people in northern Pennsylvania would say the same thing. Around here, the City of New York is either called New York City or NYC. Also, sometimes simply "The City" when it's clear you don't mean Boston. Dismas|^(talk) 05:07, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, sure. "New York" can mean the state, the city metro area, just the city's five boroughs, or just the Manhattan borough. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:29, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

This question was asked and answered in January, incidentally. Consensus was that "New York" is the most official name. Tevildo (talk) 07:56, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Deja vu all over again. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:09, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The most recent city charter is titled "New York City Charter" and also uses the phrase "City of New York". However the first paragraph states: "The city. The city of New York as now existing shall continue with the boundaries and with the powers, rights and property, and subject to the obligations and liabilities which exist at the time when this charter shall take effect." Since only "New York" is capitalized, it is implied that "New York" is its actual name. The original charter from 1897 does the same thing when you get past the title and introduction. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 09:21, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh yea, I just saw they noticed that in the prior discussion as well. I guess I should have read the whole conversation. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 09:26, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The Postal Service decides the names of Post Offices, so I guess it could in principle say "go ahead and put ‘New Bialystok’ on the mayor's letterhead but if you want mail delivered there it'll have to be addressed to ‘West Anthill’." There was a time when it tried to change all burghs to burgs and coalesce a lot of two-word names. But in practice, as far as I know, it generally defers to the local government. —Tamfang (talk) 09:49, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Da centa of da frickin' univoise. Clarityfiend (talk) 13:35, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

That's "univoice" μηδείς (talk) 19:34, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

The official version of the name of the municipality as a unit of government is "City of New York", but the proper name of the city is just "New York". Since there are other things named "New York" (the county and the state), "New York City" is a popular or colloquial name used in other parts of the country. (People in the New York metropolitan area tend to refer to the municipality as a whole as "the five boroughs", since in greater New York and neighboring areas, "New York" and "the City" generally refer to Manhattan and not the rest of the municipality.) In other parts of the Northeast not too close to northern or western New York state (such as eastern Massachusetts where I live), "New York" is the usual name for the city (including the outer boroughs and even the New York state suburbs). If we want to refer to other parts of the state of New York, we say "New York State" or "Upstate New York". (While I know that it is erroneous to consider Buffalo "upstate", it might be labeled as such by people to the east.) Marco polo (talk) 16:01, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I found myself wondering about this recently, too. I run a small business and addressed a package to a customer whose address was listed as "Brooklyn" — one of the five boroughs, obviously, but I'm fairly certain I've mailed packages to Brooklyn and Queens before that simply had a "New York, NY" address. How is this sort of thing decided for USPS purposes? Evan ^{(talk|contribs)} 16:22, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

"Brooklyn" is correct for an address in Brooklyn. "New York" could cause confusion there unless you get the zip code right, at least in part because the two boroughs have separate sets of numbered streets and avenues. Also, the New York Yankees, based in the borough of the Bronx, use "Bronx" as their address rather than "New York". [1] Cities within the boroughs of Queens and Staten Island tend to be addressed by their specific city name. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:30, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I got to wondering about Jersey City, New Jersey, and on its official seal it says "City of Jersey City". No doubt produced by their Department of Redundancy Department. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Likewise, the official name of the county containing Martha's Vineyard and surrounding islands is the "County of Dukes County", unlike other counties in Massachusetts, which are just called "County of X". Quirks like that happen from time to time. --Jayron32 17:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

That reminds me of Northern Exposure, where Cicely was said at first to be in Arrowhead County, until someone told the writers that Alaska has no Counties; so in later seasons it was "the Borough of Arrowhead County". — And of Industry, California, which nobody calls that, leading to a myth that its full formal name is "City of the City of Industry". — And of Champaign, Illinois, which is coterminous with Champaign City Township (distinct from the adjacent Champaign Township); there is or was a small office building with the sign Town of the City of Champaign. —Tamfang (talk) 18:58, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• New York, NY, would imply a Manhattan address and would be inarguably incorrect for any other borough, like Brooklyn. But if you had the zip code and the street address right it would get there soon enough. The normal address now is by zipcode and the name of the borough. But you still see addresses like Flushing, NY and L.I.C., NY (Long Island City) which are parts of Queens: Co-op City, which is part of the Bronx, or Riverdale, NY which is part of the Bronx. Technically, something sent to Riverdale should have a Bronx, NY address, but most residents like to think of themselves as being Manhattanites in exile, for cultural reasons, and because a change in the flow of the Harlem river to a more southerly path made part of Manhattan become part of the Bronx mainland. μηδείς (talk) 16:44, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

the importance of address in NYC

PS, in NYC, the USPS provides a list of addresses to NY Tel., now part of Verizon. When phone service is installed in a new building or residence it's matched to the postal address. This address is then submitted as the service address to the 911 system, so that callers can be located to where there phone is located, down to the floor and suite/apartment. It is possible to request a billing address different from the service address, and to pay for a listing that advises yellow page users of whatever address you like so long as there's no fraud intended. One problem that sometimes comes up is when a customer, rather than asking to move a phone number, runs the wires himself. Customers are advised not to touch the outside wiring, but they do so. I had a landlord who had had tenants swap locations. Eventually new tenants had asked for service in there name where the prior, illegally swapped number had working, rather than where our records showed it was originally located. A landlord called to advise me he and a relative were swapping locations, and they wanted their numbers swapped. Because the landlord had moved the wire 20 years ago without notifying or asking the phone company, the desired number came on at the wrong location. It took a week (in my work as troubleshooter) to get from the customer that they had moved the wires themselves. This meant they would need to pay repair charges for outside wiring and wait for a repair date--it would be illegal to "pretend" they were at the other location per 911 regulations. The customer was facing a $1,000 bill and a few week's wait for service. So, being ever so clever, the customer switched his phone numbers to MCI for local service. But MCI was only renting our lines wholesale, and rebilling the customer for service, which did not include repair. When the repair date came around, our tech cancelled the ticket because the line belonged to MCI, who had reported inside trouble. MCI referred the customer to us. I got a call from the irate landlord saying we had sabotaged MCI. I told him we could do two things, charge him $425+ to have two new lines with new numbers installed from scratch, or have his numbers with MCI transferred back to NYT (which took a month by federal regulation, and then see what due dates would be available at that point to have repair fix his outside problem. I followed this case for months, and he never did get the original numbers swapped, as he had desired, so far as I was aware. In any case, the correct address matters for mail, phone service, white page listings, 911 service, repair and future moves of phone service retaining the same number. The regs have changed somewhat, and MCI is out of business, while Bernie Ebbers is in jail, and his main campaign finance recipient, Trent Lott is retired. μηδείς (talk) 19:37, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Medeis is correct that the correct postal address varies by borough. In Manhattan, the correct address is New York, NY. In Brooklyn, the correct address is Brooklyn, NY. In the Bronx, the correct address is Bronx, NY. On Staten Island, the correct address is Staten Island, NY. Queens, however is an exception to this pattern. In Queens, the correct address lists the "town" or neighborhood within Queens. There are a couple dozen of these. Examples include Long Island City, NY; Astoria, NY; Flushing, NY; Jamaica, NY; Woodhaven, NY; Elmhurst, NY; Floral Park, NY; and so on. If you search within 20 miles of "Flushing, NY" on this site, you will see what I mean. Or see our List of Queens neighborhoods. Marco polo (talk) 19:09, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for the answers. I believe I have found my answer in the linked archive from a discussion of an identical question on the Humanities RefDesk. Although I did mention the US Postal Service, I did so merely to suggest that they may have a role in determining the official names of cities since they deliver people's letters. I understand that it is inappropriate to address a letter designated for Brooklyn as "New York, NY." I also understand that the term "New York" without the capitalized "City" may raise confusions as to which entity one is referring to.

However, my intended question was to find out the official name of the city that encompasses all 5 boroughs. Looking at the previous discussion, the linked 2004 city charter, and the GNIS website, I do believe that the official name is simply "New York." Thanks everyone! Acceptable (talk) 00:27, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

The official name of the five incorporated boroughs is either New York City, or The City of New York. N.Y., NY is Manhattan. NY is the state, and New York is ambigulous. Beside my own seven figure job experience, I can get other current city employees who will confirm this. μηδείς (talk) 05:17, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

This is a classic Haddocks Eyes situation - it is "the city of New York" (per the charters), its name is "New York" (per GNIS), and it's called "New York City" (per Medies, who I hope can back up the assertion). The answer to the question, as written, is "New York". Tevildo (talk) 08:18, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Nice to see one of my favorites of my own questions referenced. 95.133.81.129 (talk) 18:29, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• I think the easiest way is to go to the Mayor's website, http://www1.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/. But before I went back to school I worked for New York Telephone, the local state bell in the Manhattan office. Of your first 12 weeks of employment, about half consists of knowing the difference between NYC, N.Y., and NY, and how to properly determine service addresses, as opposed to billing addresses, in the five boroughs, largely with the intent of providing next day service without a tech visit. I eventually became a troubleshooter for the five boroughs, and many issues were caused by incorrect entries, and the story I collapsed above in green. The question seems moot since the OP seems satisfied. 18:30, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

There's also the Charter of the City of New York. μηδείς (talk) 19:03, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

If one were to actually read those references, one would observe that the Mayor's website is headed "The Official Website of the City of New York", and the charter, as mentioned previously, reads "the city of New York" (note the lower-case "c"). Neither supports "New York City" as the official name. Tevildo (talk) 23:10, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and NYC is the biggest city in the 13 (or is that 57?) united States of America. Acceptable's statement above, "I do believe that the official name is simply 'New York.'" raises the question, the official name of what is simply New York? New York City is an amalgamation of several different counties of New York State into one Municipality, the City of New York. But originally New York (previously New Amsterdam), Greenwich Village and Harlem were separate villages or municipalities of the County of New York, on Manhattan island. So the question is, when one says,"I do believe that the official name is simply "New York'", is one referring to the state of New York, the old city of New Amsterdam, the County of New York, or the City of New York, aka New York City, as established by the merger with Brooklyn in the 19th century? Basically, the answer is, it is not called Buffalo. μηδείς (talk) 01:51, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Again, my question is concerning the official name of the city that encompasses the 5 boroughs. As per the city charter, this collection of the 5 boroughs is referred to as "the city of New York" with a lowercase "c" in "city." This implies that the official name for the collection of the 5 boroughs is just "New York." I understand that different agencies such as the poster service or various phone companies will have their own designations, but the official name bestowed upon upon by the charter is simply just "New York." Acceptable (talk) 16:00, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, perhaps that would work if the charter says at some point, the name of the city of New York is New York. I am curious whether the name of the queen of Great Britain is Great Britain? You're looking at a question of usage, context, and contrast. In legal cases it is always The City of New York vs. John Doe. That pretty much settles the case. Of course there are variants of usage, obsolete like like the city of New York and current like New York City, but either of these terms used nowadays and not in a historical context means the five boroughs. It is only when context is already established and contrast with the state or county of New York is not relevant that New York is unambiguous. μηδείς (talk) 16:38, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Medeis, you are failing to grasp the OP's essential point (reiterated immediately above). The question is not "What is the most appropriate term to use to refer to the city?", the answer to which is context-dependent, and will in many cases be "New York City". The question is "What is the official name of the city?", which has one, unambiguous answer - "New York". The official name is not an adequate disambiguator in many circumstances, as you point out, so other terms are used as appropriate, but none of them are the official name. Tevildo (talk) 08:18, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any point in arguing this beyond the Latin and the lawsuits, Thu. μηδείς (talk) 19:33, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Side stitch

I started running together with a friend a couple of weeks ago, and while he constantly get side stitch almost nomatter what he does, I never get it. It doesnt matter how intense I run, how far I run, if i warm up or not, if I eat or not or anything. Can anyone tell me why it might be that I'm apperantly immune to this while my friend suffers chronically from it. Joneleth (talk) 17:05, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Side stitch suggests that the causes are not well understood but lists a few means of prevention. One is to adjust the point in the stride at which you inhale. It could be that your running partner has a different breathing pattern than you. The article may give you other ideas. - Eron^Talk 17:15, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I guess if you two were clones (or one of you was) then we could answer it. The truth is we are all variable in our physical makeup and different external forces will affect us differently. How come some people get horrendous hangovers after drinking while others can carry on next morning like nothing's happened? Why can some people tolerate outrageously hot chilli peppers while others cannot? Richard Avery (talk) 08:05, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Slightly more detailed than our article is Cramps and Stitches from the Australian Sports Commission, with more advice about how diet can make a stitch more or less likely. Alansplodge (talk) 21:16, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Dentists & General Anaestheic

Why is it that dentists in the UK (and also in Japan) refuse to give a general anaesthetic for a tooth extraction, or even more serious jobs like a root replacement? KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 19:12, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I had sodium pentathol and whatever else when I had my impacted wisdom teeth removed. I had no pulse for two minutes, and was in the stretcher to go to the hospital (the work was done in the dentist's office) when they revove me. Of course, impacted molars are more serious (they use a bone saw) to remove than just pulling a tooth. μηδείς (talk) 19:43, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I like "revove". I don't know where I'll use it, but I like it...Is "root replacement" another word for what we call "dental implants" in the US? --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 19:54, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what it's called in English, but it was a plastic 'root', replacing my real root. Two four-hour operations to get it done, during which they gave me some gas pipe up my nose (this was Japan), which ddn't put me asleep. It just made me so happy I didn't care about the pain and talked all the way through both operations. I was just wondering about the good old needle in the arm. Why don't they do that anymore? It would certainly help the dentists to concentrate without having to listen to my incessant chatter. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 20:03, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The gas sounds like nitrous oxide, which is (as far as I'm concerned) the best analgesic in the universe. You know it hurts and you do not care. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 21:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Anaesthetists in hospitals are specialists who have done the full standard base level medical training ( 5 or 6 years), plus a specialisation period of maybe two years minimum in anaesthesia. Your dentist doesn't have this training. Do you want an amateur giving you a general anaesthetic? HiLo48 (talk) 20:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Maybe it's not widely known, but general anaesthesia is a major and comparatively risky procedure in the best of cases. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:27, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

When I was losing my baby teeth in Scotland in the late 60s, my dentist would knock me out with laughing gas before pulling the ones that needed to go. For reasons already stated, they're not allowed to do that now. Anything requiring a general anaesthetic gets referred to the nearest dental hospital, where a trained anaesthetist is provided. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 21:52, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Laughing gas is not a general anaesthetic. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 22:01, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Laughing gas is a weak general anaesthetic, and as such, my dentist used it to render his patients unconscious. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 22:10, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Wow! I thought it had fallen out of use as a general much earlier than that. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 01:54, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I wonder if this situation could be part of a case for legalised marijuana? HiLo48 (talk) 22:11, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Err... I would have thought that the last thing you need after having any dental work done is to suffer an attack of the munchies!--Aspro (talk) 23:49, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Next time you say that, Fiddlersmouth, try not to start with, "When I was losing my baby...", It was most distressing. μηδείς (talk) 23:15, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Baby teeth, it would seem,[2] technically known as Deciduous teeth. Not to be confused with Deciduous tree, whose leaves fall off in the fall and spring up in the spring. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:33, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

What doctors and dentists use is based very much on the risk to the patient involved. If a doctor or dentist uses a procedure or drug that had previously been shown to be risky or, more importantly, had caused a post-treatment condition for which the patient was able to sue the practitioner then it will not be used. Richard Avery (talk) 07:58, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

"Dentists will not be allowed to perform general anaesthetics in their own surgeries unless they have a specialist anaesthetist present and have immediate access to emergency care facilities..." (BBC November 1999). Perhaps this is being discussed in the US too - see Dental Sedation Responsible For At Least 31 Child Deaths Over 15 Years. Alansplodge (talk) 17:28, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Nitrous oxide works largely as an asphyxiant, and regularly kills those such as dentists who abuse it. Google laughing gas death. μηδείς (talk) 20:30, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
  • You've made the assertion, you supply the reference. Most nitrous injuries are indeed caused by asphyxiation, or falling on the floor. But nitrous does not work "largely as an asphyxiant"; see Nitrous oxide#Mechanism of action. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 17:45, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
    • You mean where it says "The pharmacological mechanism of action of N2O in medicine is not fully known"? It seems to replace O2. If there's a better word for that than asphyxiant, I am all for knowing what that is. μηδείς (talk) 19:29, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
      • You've asserted that it works largely as an asphyxiant. Is this your imagination at work, or do you have some evidence? That we don't fully know the pharmacological mechanism is hardly evidence that it's asphyxiation. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 20:43, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

??? If μηδείς ever had Nitrous oxide (as I have) she will be aware that oxygen is introduced to the flow (from the cylinder next to it) so that hypoxia does not occur. It is not the full moon tonight so I wonder whats going on.--Aspro (talk) 20:59, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the O2 is introduced so that you aren't, in fact, asphyxiated. Doesn't always work, though, due to accident or abuse. In any case, nitrous oxide does bind to hemoglobin. Perhaps readers are confused by the assumption that by asphyxiation I mean suffocating the patient to death? μηδείς (talk) 18:39, 19 October 2014 (UTC)