Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers

circa

The guideline exemplifies the preferred abbreviation in roman face, c., although italicises the spellings-out. I've often wondered which is correct for the single-letter abbreviation. A recently promoted article, Deusdedit of Canterbury, has the italics. Tony (talk) 10:18, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

According to one source:

• Foreign words and phrases which have passed into regular English usage should not be italicized, though the decision between italic and roman type may sometimes be a fine one. In doubtful instances it is usually best to use roman. ... Certain Latin words and abbreviations which are in common English usage are also no longer italicized.

It does suggest that circa is an exception to that rule. However, there's no point in Wikipedia having a guideline of such small detail that will be ignored frequently. Thus for consistency and pragmatic reasons, I think Wikipedia shouldn't make that exception i.e. it should be roman just like 'etc' and 'i.e.' Lightmouse (talk) 10:44, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

It's my gut reaction too; but other opinions are needed, I think. Tony (talk) 13:32, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Parts of this discussion seem unaware of the existing WP:YEAR guideline: "the unitalicised abbreviation c. is preferred over circa". That is, we already specify unitalicized "c.", and deprecate "circa", so it doesn't matter whether the wrong way ("circa") should be italicized or not. Art LaPella (talk) 18:05, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the WP:YEAR guideline already settles the question about "c.", and that it should be unitalicized. When the guideline uses italics for the spellings-out ("circa", etc.), I read that as an emphasis on those words, and not a recommendation that they be italicized. Similar to an earlier example (MOS:TIME) that uses italics to emphasize "a.m." and "p.m.", but it is not a recommendation to italicize them, as the examples show "a.m." and "p.m." as unitalicized. CuriousEric 19:44, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

The OED italicises circa in an example, plus the two quotations it gives that use circa also italicise it. If anyone can access the online OED, the link is this. McLerristarr | Mclay1 04:35, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

For whatever it might be worth, c. (unitalicized) is the accepted U.S. & Canadian (and perhaps Mexican) abbreviation for "cent" (or centavo) when the symbol ¢ is unavailable or hard to create (I just had to look it up in Windows' character map because it's not on computer keyboards as it was on American typewriter keyboards). But unlike $ and c. for circa, c. for "cents" comes after the numbers. I sometimes lean towards using ca without a full stop/period for circa, but that raises the British/American quandary about non-terminal periods/full stops. —— Shakescene (talk) 06:11, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Templates: height and convert

We have two templates: 'height' and convert. Although they are written differently, they have overlapping capabilities. Each has its own discussion page but there isn't a forum for discussion relating to the overlap. If the output is the same, when should an article use one rather than the other? Lightmouse (talk) 10:56, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Note - Lightmouse (talk · contribs) has, with his bot Lightbot (talk · contribs), introduced massive, un-discussed changes to articles using these templates at least twice in the past. GiantSnowman 11:13, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

This doesn't seem to be a helpful comment, given LM's attempts to ask for community input here. Tony (talk) 12:41, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps a little, but in fainess, he only asked for community input after two editors wrote on his talk page, questioning his actions. GiantSnowman 12:44, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

As I understand it, {{height}} is for use in infoboxes, and abbreviations of units and precision default to settings appropriate to such use. This makes it quicker and easier to use than the {{convert}} equivalent. In addition, using a simple template called "height" for a person's height is more intuitive for inexperienced editors, who make a significant proportion of edits to sportspeople's infoboxes. Compare {{height|ft=6|in=2}} with {{convert|6|ft|2|in|m|2|abbr=on}}. Which is why I was disappointed when Lightbot started going round infoboxes changing {{height}} to its {{convert}} equivalent, but assumed this would have been discussed somewhere...

This discussion arose from a thread at Lightmouse's talk page, concerning bot edits adding a precision=0 parameter to usages of {{height}} where the default precision had produced half-inches in the output (displayed as a vulgar fraction). If there actually is agreement that nowadays people's heights are generally measured to the nearest whole inch, then it's fair enough to display at that precision as the result of a conversion from metric. But maybe this should be implemented by changing the output default at the template itself, rather than by complicating matters with the added precision parameter. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:57, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Forgive me. I do many janitorial edits across the whole of WP. Some pass without comment. Some produce comments merely as a result of curiousity, alternative opinions, lack of awareness, local custom, or whatever. U can't always predict which are regarded as noteworthy by any one of the many editors on the millions of articles. In this case, I brought it here as soon as I saw that the issue is sufficiently important to require community input. I don't think many people are aware that we have two templates with major overlap. A good outcome of this dialog is that people will be able to decide what to do about it.

I agree with the analysis/suggestion of User:Struway2. Thanks. Lightmouse (talk) 13:06, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the following is true:

Height template	Convert template	Comment
{{height|ft=5|in=6}} 5 ft 6 in (1.68 m)	{{convert|5|ft|6|in|2|abbr=on}} 5 ft 6 in (1.68 m)	Identical. Height template actually uses the convert template
{{height|m=1.68|precision=0}} 1.68 m (5 ft 6 in)	{{convert|1.68|m|0|abbr=on}} 1.68 m (5 ft 6 in)	Identical.

What are the reasons for choosing one template over another? Lightmouse (talk) 17:28, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Guidance on symbol for litre

I think we've now resolved contradiction and clarity problems with current guidance on litre. Several people wanted to discuss changes in guidance. The following table summarises what I think people meant:

Permit 'l' without prefix	Permit mix of 'L' and 'ml' in article	Supporters	Comment
No	No	Jimp, Jc3s5h
No	Yes		Current guidance
Follow guidance in BIPM SI brochure		Woodstone Martinvl	SI guidance

If I've misunderstood, please make the appropriate changes. Lightmouse (talk) 15:14, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

There is a difference between "permitting XXXX" and "conselling against, but not prohibitting XXX". The SI brochure says that either "L" or "l" may be used as a symbol for the litre, but gives no further guidance. I usually use "L" and "ml" but am not dogmatic about it - this is the norm in the UK, I don't know what the norm is in the US. Martinvl (talk) 15:46, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Since the brochure is not primarily a style manual, I would not expect it to give general writing advice, such as keeping symbols consistent within an article. Thus I wouldn't interpret silence on this topic as permission to be inconsistent. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:52, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Looking at some products in my kitchen, I find 5 uses of "L", 4 uses of "ml", 5 uses of "mL", no uses of "l", and no units spelled out. This is in the USA. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:01, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks. Does the mosnum guidance over and above the SI brochure have any effect? Guidance that has no effect is probably a waste. Lightmouse (talk) 14:26, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

From a regulatory standpoint, weights and measures authorities only regulate goods in commerce, so Wikipedia has no obligation to pay any attention to any weights-and-measures standard-setting body.

Given that, I observe that both MOS and MOSNUM make suggestions that are widely available in grammar and style guides. So there is nothing to stop us from repeating information that is in the BIPM brochure, if we think editors are unlikely to bother reading the brochure but would read the suggestions if they are reproduced here.

If MOSNUM specifically endorses, through a hyperlink, the guidance in the BIPM brochure, that would disallow the script lower-case l which would otherwise be acceptable. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:33, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. WP mosnum repeats, contradicts, and goes beyond SI as we choose. I was merely suggesting that we look critically at the value of each repetition.

• You appear to be suggesting that SI forbids the lower case 'l' for litre. But that's not true. See the official SI website and the footnote.
• The current guidance in mosnum is that some of SI applies and some does not. I don't see any reason for that to change.

Forgive me for not understanding you. I agree with you that we can and should choose to repeat some of SI. We just need to ensure repetition adds value. Lightmouse (talk) 16:44, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

The liter symbol that is sometimes seen, but not endorsed by the BIPM brochure, is "ℓ". Jc3s5h (talk) 19:58, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah. I seem to remember seeing "ℓ" mentioned somewhere before. But I don't think I've ever encountered it in Wikipedia. Forgive me for not following you, can we take it step by step. Are you saying mosnum should have guidance on "ℓ"? Lightmouse (talk) 20:58, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I think the difficulty in typing "ℓ" is sufficient to protect us from it, but I would have no problem endorsing a guide that either says to avoid it, or implies it should be avoided by not listing it among the acceptable symbols. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:40, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Your wish appears to be granted. Mosnum says:

• Non-SI units in tables 6, 7, 8, and 9 of the SI brochure are written according to the SI standard unless otherwise specified in this Manual of Style (dates and numbers). For example see guidance on litre.

Table 6 of the SI brochure says:

• "The alternative symbol, capital L, was adopted by the 16th CGPM (1979, Resolution 6) in order to avoid the risk of confusion between the letter l (el) and the numeral 1 (one)."

The only remaining issue is whether there's a problem in WIkipedia that needs mosnum to say more than SI. User:Woodstone and User:Martinvl are happy with a one-to-one match between mosnum and SI guidance. If you are too, then so am I. Lightmouse (talk) 09:43, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

• My first choice would be to adopt American usage in all cases, and always capitalize the "L". But I don't think I can persuade the community do that. My second choice would be to follow the BIPM brochure. However, retain the guidance that the spelling "liter" is allowed. Jc3s5h (talk) 11:31, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

I sympathise with your first choice but agree it's unlikely to succeed. Your second choice means keeping the 'Name' and 'Comment' columns the same and changing the 'Symbol' column to:

• l or L

I'm ok with that. Lightmouse (talk) 15:25, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

I've updated the guidance accordingly. The 'Symbol' column now simply says

• l or L

and matches BIPM. Lightmouse (talk) 10:39, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Jojotruth1, 20 July 2011

please change AD and BC to a more accurate scientific dating system

Jojotruth1 (talk) 17:36, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

That's a perennial issue, not something we forgot. Here's its most recent repetition. Art LaPella (talk) 21:33, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

No, we will not make this change in the foreseeable future. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:37, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Which more scientific dating system are you referring to? Your edits at Israel seem to suggest that you aren't talking about BCE and CE?. — Steven Evens ^(contribs) 02:55, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Permanent compromise for BCE/CE vs. BC/AD wars?

How about, instead of just allowing either notation in any given article, we take one of each and make it the standard. Most who complain about BC/AD being offensive cite the "Year of Our Lord" in AD, and most who complain about BCE/CE cite the 3 digits found in "BCE".

How about we make the new standard BC and CE? We will use "BC" all throughout Wikipedia for years before Year One, and we will use "CE" all throughout Wikipedia for years from 1 onward. For example, the contentious Jesus article would read, under this new Wikipedia system:

"Jesus of Nazareth, Yeshua in Hebrew or Aramaic (7-2 BC — 30-36 CE)"

Well, why not? I know that BC and CE are rarely paired in external sources, but why can't Wikipedia make a compromise to be as neutral as possible without also being as frustrating as possible by allowing both and having edit wars and reversions constantly? What's bad about this idea? Thoughts?. — Steven Evens ^(contribs) 02:52, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

It cannot be denied that the proposal has a certain elegance. Although it makes an unusual pair, it has a nicely balanced feel. I would support it. −Woodstone (talk) 05:37, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

There is already a fairly commonly used system that does not have any problem with bulky abbreviations or explicit religious references: astronomical year numbering. Jc3s5h (talk) 11:38, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

But with astronomical year numbering, Julius Caesar dies in –44 instead of 45 BC, which would change every established BC year we know, and the minus sign (–) would wreak havoc on date ranges. Imagine, if you will: ""Jesus of Nazareth, Yeshua in Hebrew or Aramaic (–6 - –1 — 30-36)". — Steven Evens ^(contribs) 21:02, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

What Steven Evens views as a disadvantage, I view as an advantage. It would be too complicated for someone to even think about using a bot to make the "correction". Bots never get it right, they always mess up on things like quotes and titles. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:38, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Also, I think it's quite unfamiliar to most readers, so even if we get it right they might not realize the negative years are off by one wrt the more commonly used systems. ― A. di M.​_plé​^dréachtaí 20:02, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Right, and it's not really commonly used at all. It's commonly used in some technical/academic fields, this is a general purpose, albeit highly detailed, encyclopedia. It's certainly no where near as common as BCE/CE. The BC/CE solution is interesting and possible because the BC/AD and BCE/CE systems are just different naming conventions for the same system. I'm not sure that this is the best solution but it deserves consideration. I'm not really sure why BCE is so disliked just for an extra letter, everyone knows the C in BC is "Christ" which makes the system remain problematic, though I suppose we could break new ground and suggest that it now is simply a shorter form of BCE.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 13:01, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

It seems a little strange but I see no reason why Wikipedia cannot invent its own system. Change has to start somewhere. Someone invented the BCE/CE system. Although I still don't understand why we use BC/AD seeing as how Christian articles use BCE/CE. All that being said, I have no problem with the extra letter in BCE. McLerristarr | Mclay1 13:06, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

The biggest obstacle to inventing our own system would be getting anyone to notice. The Manual of Style puts most editors to sleep long before they find out about its subpages. Art LaPella (talk) 15:39, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

We can't create our "own system", it's not notable or from reliable sources. It would be like creating an in-wiki alternative to the metric system instead of using either metric or imperial. The difference here is, we can mix a usage of BCE/CE and BC/AD without causing any problems. As for the "Christ" in BC making it problematic, I don't see why. It's educational. "Christ", despite its apparent religiosity, is widely used as a secular means of referring to Jesus of Nazareth anyway, as confirmed by its Wiki article. How many times have you heard non-Christians call Jesus simply "Christ" without implying he is a messiah? Look, it's simply a fact that the Dionysian era system is based on the (erroneously calculated) birth of Jesus, so as an encyclopedia dedicated to information, I don't understand the obsession with completely covering that up. Sure, "in the year of our Lord" is a bit icky, even for me as an atheist, but it's all the same mythology as Thor's Day, Woden's Day, etc. Plus, they're just initialisms, it's not like they're spelled out or anything.

I think the BC & CE combo proposal conveniently rids of the overtly religious "AD" proclamation (as well as the pesky way that it can be placed either before or after a year) as well as not going too PC in the other direction by keeping the reference to Jesus (Christ) for years before the Dionysian era, and keeping both initialisms at 2 letters. I don't see why this compromise shouldn't satisfy most people. Even for those who prefer BCE/CE, this proposal would promote the Common Era system even more on Wikipedia as it would be used in every article that spans the years 1—999 — Steven Evens ^(contribs) 16:16, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand. First you said we can't create our own system, then you said you support it. I've never really noticed non-Christians refer to the purely historical Jesus as "Christ". I wouldn't. But that point is that, as an encyclopaedia, dedicated to factual information, basing a dating system on one religion and an inaccurate guess at a person's date of birth seem silly. McLerristarr | Mclay1 06:53, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I said we can use one aspect of the BCE system and another aspect of the BC system. That's not inventing a new system, it is taking different aspects from two existing systems. As for an encylopedia dedicated to factual information basing a dating system on one religion, what else do you suggest? BCE/CE terminology doesn't change the fact that it's the Christian system. And using another era system altogether is not notable. The Gregorian calendar is the international standard, that's why we use it. Is it "accurate" that Janus is the god of doorways and therefore we should support naming the first month "January"? No, but does that mean we should create a new name for January within Wikipedia? Of course not. Wikipedia uses what's notable in the English language, and that includes the January, Wednesday, BC/AD/BCE/CE, etc.. — Steven Evens ^(contribs) 07:42, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

• So… eschewing the RSs isn’t enough, we would completely eschew both conventions used on this pale blue dot and instead invent our own hybrid house style that nobody else is using?? (♬♩“A little bit country! …And a little bit Rock and Roll!”♩♬). It’s been proven over and over again that Wikipedia does not have the power to Lead By Example To Change The World For A New And Brighter Future®™© and always manages to do nothing more than just looks foolish whenever it attempts to do so (witness the three-year-long “kilobyte” / “kibibyte” fiasco).

  It is common for many publications to use BCE/CE when trying to be politically correct and trip all over oneself to be as inoffensive as possible. However, I’ve yet to hear narrators on TV and film documentaries (like on Egyptian pyramids) use this new terminology; instead, they stick to the “BC” and “AD” forms. I assume this is because the customary terms are less distracting in audible form because saying “This pyramid was thought to have been built in 2500 bee see eee” would leave the viewer in “WTF-land” for 15 seconds.

  At risk of ticking off some of the 16-year-old wikipedians who might be looking in on this and who are all smitten with how wise and knowledgeable they have become in only two short years and who are trying to change the world; and in order to make peace on this issue using actual policy that underlies important principals of Wikipedia, I am all for just following the RSs for each particular article. For those articles where there is no guidance by the RSs, or the usage is mixed or unclear by the RSs, my personal preference is to use the BC/AD since I believe it least draws attention to itself for those who hear the words in their heads as they read. This philosophy comes from Technical Writing 101, which states that Thou shalt not use a writing style that draws undo attention to itself for the target readership.

  But, since the above might make too much sense and deprive people of their God-given entitlement to wikidrama, I suspect the best thing to do here on this issue is the standard solution for deadlocks: “Do whatever ya’ want.” Greg L (talk) 16:29, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Fwiw, I first heard the usage BCE/CE (actually it was not the initialisms but the full words) nearly 30 years ago on a documentary on the US Public Broadcasting System. I believe the documentary was about the Holy Land, though I don't recall exactly. :) --Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 17:07, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

It's still quite a minority usage (though their frequencies are the same order of magnitude now, so that I think the current “pick-one-and-leave-it-alone” way is appropriate): http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content=753+BC%2C753+BCE&year_start=1970&year_end=2008&corpus=0&smoothing=3. ― A. di M.​_plé​^dréachtaí 17:50, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Meh, whatever, I wasn't actually expecting this to go anywhere, just sparking discussion on it. In my perfect world, "BCE" could be meant to represent "Before Christian Epoch", and "CE" could be switched to "ACE" and mean "After Christian Epoch"; getting rid of the nonsense terms "Common" and "Era" and stripping it down to exactly what it really is, and also giving both notations 3 letters. Saying we're in the year 2011 CE ("Common Era") sounds stupid, but 2011 ACE ("After Christian Epoch") makes perfect sense, because that's exactly what it is. Two thousand and eleven years since the Christian epoch, without needing to get all religious about it. The main objection I have with "Common Era" is how vague and nonsensical it is. But "Christian Era" doesn't work either, because it sounds as if everything that the era itself since 1 AD is somehow Christian in nature. The term "epoch" only refers to the reference date, not the years following or preceding. I hate euphemisms and eschewing history, and so CE/BCE rub me the wrong way. — Steven Evens ^(contribs) 03:03, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I’m not making fun of you, Steven, but I can’t resist: Since we are inventing house styles unique on this planet, why not “BYMRTCBCSETLEAFS”, which would stand for “Before Years Measured Relative To Christ But CALLED Something Else To Look Enlightened And Feel Smug”. Then “AYMRTCBCSETLEAFS” could mean the “after” version of all that. We’ll stand on a hilltop, join hands, and Change The World©™® with Coca-Cola. Or we could just follow the RSs where possible. Greg L (talk) 03:20, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry, I understand what you're saying. I wasn't saying that I'd prefer this "perfect world" BCE/ACE over the traditional AD/BC, because that's not the case at all. If it were up to me, we'd use AD/BC exclusively. But we're not. It's the constant edit warring, reverting, time wasting and accusations of "Christian bias" that I can't stand with the current "use both systems wherever" compromise. People are constantly changing BC/AD to BCE/CE arbitrarily all 'round the encyclopedia for spurious politically correct reasons, and if you don't revert them "in time", it is considered that the silence has established consensus for BCE/CE. All sorts of ugly political and religious debates and shouting matches have resulted from fighting over this terminology. With my BC/CE compromise I was just offering an idea that might help quell that a bit. I knew it was unlikely to succeed, but it's worth throwing out there. — Steven Evens ^(contribs) 03:31, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

ACE doesn't make any sense. If BCE is before something and ACE is after something, when was the something? McLerristarr | Mclay1 06:53, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Some OR on my part: Well, the "After Common Era" will apply when the Common Era (where we are now) ends. That will supposedly be on the Second coming. The catch is that we don't really know when will that happen, although every while a True Prophet™ makes a prediction. No such user (talk) 07:27, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Did you read my post immediately prior? I explained that ACE in a "perfect world" system would represent "After the Christian Epoch", not "After the Common Era". The "something" is the Christian epoch—Dionysius Exiguus' estimate of the birth year of Jesus. Unlike "Era" which suggests a continuous time period after a certain point, "epoch" is that point itself. — Steven Evens ^(contribs) 07:42, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Links instead of conversions

We have guidance that says:

• Avoid linking common units of measurement,

Some units are neither common nor uncommon. They're in a middle commonality zone (e.g. nautical mile) where a link isn't required if a conversion is present. Can anyone suggest appropriate wording? Lightmouse (talk) 11:56, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Given what MOSLINK says in its footnote 2, and common logic, it seems that the existence of a conversion significantly lessens the utility of a wikilink. Tony (talk) 12:50, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Sometimes a unit has more utility for a certain field than one would guess just from the conversion factor. For example, a nautical mile is also close enough, for most navigation purposes, to a minute of latitude, so the left or right margins of a nautical chart can be used to set dividers to the desired distance. Depending on the primary audience of a particular article, a link may be appropriate. Jc3s5h (talk) 12:58, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, that applies pretty much to all units of measurement. If I'm writing that some guy weighs 89 kilograms (196 lb) I don't link kilogram, but if I'm writing that the kilogram is the only SI unit still defined by an artefact I do link it. ― A. di M.​_plé​^dréachtaí 17:53, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

How about adding an additional bullet:

• Avoid linking non-obscure units of measurement within conversions

Would that work? Lightmouse (talk) 11:14, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Well... I think the footnote already covers it adequately. Also, it would be unclear whether within conversions refers only to the ‘target’ unit or also to the ‘source’ unit. ― A. di M.​_plé​^dréachtaí 11:29, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

BTW, aren't discussions about this supposed to be at WT:LINK, rather than here? ― A. di M.​_plé​^dréachtaí 11:41, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Aha! I'm not the only editor that missed conversions being mentioned in the footnote. I don't care where the discussion takes place but I brought it here because I thought it was a matter for units of measurement people. The issue is that the threshold is different inside a conversion. I think source and target are covered by the phrase but I'd welcome alternative suggestions. Lightmouse (talk) 12:04, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

• I suggest we mention that editors should consider that what might be drop-dead common in one part of the world may not be common—or even obvious—in another part of the world. I’m talking specifically about older Americans and the metric system. Generally, I’ve seen that Europeans are taught about America's practices and are *ambidextrous*. An example of this is delimiting numbers; Swedes are taught four or five different systems, including the American system (e.g. 12,050.5). Americans are not taught multiple ways to delimit numbers and MOSNUM is written to acknowledge that reality and avoid confusion. The same thing can be handled on the issue of “common” units with a few extra words to acknowledge that many Americans still aren’t fluent in all-things SI. Greg L (talk) 18:37, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

A good point. It would be a *lot* simpler to have a list of:

• widespread units e.g. pound, kilogram, foot, metre.
• less widespread but still-well-known units

Widespread (aka 'common') units shouldn't be linked, less widespread but still-well-known units shouldn't be linked when in conversions. These two lists could be generated from a subset of the units in US NIST document. This would end frequent debates about whether <unit> should or should not be linked inside and outside a conversion. Lightmouse (talk) 19:06, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

In as much as Lightmouse is applying for approval for a bot that might/would automatically enforce "shouldn't", I ask Lightmouse to explain how bots would be prevented from enforcing "shouldn't" in exceptional cases where the link is appropriate in a particular article. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:50, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

---

To A. di M.: Which of these U.S. Customary units of measure are drop-dead obvious to most non-U.S. English-speaking readers to the extent that virtually no non-U.S. reader would ever bother to click it if it were linked(?):

Acceleration: (none, too obscure for many readers)

Length: mile, yard, foot, inch

Angle: degree

Area: square yard

Currency: US$

Density (none, too obscure for many readers)

Electricity: volt, (no others for being too obscure, also excluding any SI-prefixed forms of volt)

Force: pound (force)

Mass: pound, ounce

Speed & velocity: miles per hour (mph)

Temperature: degree Fahrenheit (°F)

Pressure (none, too obscure for many readers)

Volume: gallon, quart, pint, cup, tablespoon, teaspoon, fluid ounce

Time: century, decade, year, month, days of the week, dates, hours, minutes, seconds (excluding any SI prefixed forms of the second)

Viscosity (none, too obscure for many readers)

Let me know of your thoughts. Off the top of my head, the only SI unit of measure that is so exceedingly familiar that very few American readers would click a link is the liter, which is pretty common in grocery stores. Other than that one, I just can’t think of other units from the SI that should generally be considered as drop-dead obvious for many Americans (particularly older ones), including the kilogram and meter. Note that some of the above-listed units are already SI (but are essentially part of U.S. Customary) or are accepted for use with the SI; namely, the volt, degree of angle, and units of date and time. Greg L (talk) 21:26, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

---

I disagree strongly with the notion of linking to the full article on any but the most obscure, arcane, or obsolete units: all you want the reader to know, in the first instance, is the conversion rate, and that is just what is often hard to find at these elephant articles. We need to link to a single page that gives nice easy conversions (even graphically depicted in some cases). Tony (talk) 01:58, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

So, are you saying that the underlying principal should be Don’t link units of measure unless, considering the context of the article and the target readership, they are sufficiently unique or obscure that there is a truly decent chance they will be clicked on.(?) Greg L (talk) 03:07, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Sort of (different wording at the end). I'm saying we need a centralised page that gives conversions and where possible graphical, pictorial, even photographic depictions of the units. That would be much more useful in most contexts than the current articles on individual units. Tony (talk) 03:12, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Maybe a set of articles like Length conversions and such? Dicklyon (talk) 04:45, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

There exists Conversion of units, Metric system, International System of Units, Imperial units, United States customary units, etc. JIMp _talk·cont 05:21, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Certainly link the truely obscure units so as to help understanding but we should avoid cluttering the place up with links to articles with very little relevance to the topic at hand. If you're suggesting that a significant number of Americans would find such units as the kilometre, metre, centimetre, millimetre, square metre, square kilometre, kilogram, gram and kilometre per hour obsure, I'd find that quite surprising (inspite of how the rest of us like poking fun at supposed American ignorance). Sure, such units as the tonne, hectare, newton, kilojoule and degree Celsius might be a little obscure to many Americans, as would be their US customary/imperial counterparts to most of us metricated folk. However, I'd suggest that even these are not yet approaching that grey area Lightmouse refers to, they're still only more-or-less off-white. The thing is that we have, to reverse the section title, conversions instead of links. An American (even an ignorant one, assuming they're at least literate) is going to read "20 hectares (49 acres)" and think something along the lines of "oh yeah, a hectare is an area unit" and, if they care enough, could easily figure out "... about 2+1⁄2 acres"; just as a metric-minded fellow (yes, we can be ignorant too) will read "20 pounds-force (89 N)" and think something like "right, a pound force is a unit of force ..." and, again, after a little mental maths, "... about 4+1⁄2 newtons". If it bugs them enough, let them copy and paste it into the search box. No, that grey area is occupied by such units as the micrometre, the parsec, the pascal, the troy ounce, the bushel, the oil barrel, the nautical mile, etc. but it still depends on context. The knot in an article about a certain boat should not be considered obscure nor should the picometre be in an article about a certain molecule. There may even be contexts in which such relatively obscure units as fathoms, furlongs, firkins or femtometres need not be linked. JIMp _talk·cont 05:17, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

GiBberish point raised

See WP:COMPUNITS –89.204.153.166 (talk) 10:30, 3 August 2011 (UTC)