Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

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WikiProject Football was featured in a WikiProject Report in the Signpost on 3 March 2008.

This WikiProject was featured on the WikiProject report at the Signpost on 9 July 2012.

On 4 August 2022, it was proposed that this page be moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject Association football. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Daniel Schmidt (footballer) - ambiguous nationality or not?

I've never heard of this player, but I found his page after creating a page for a player of a similar name. Schmidt is treated in his lead as a player of ambiguous nationality, like Marcos Senna who became a Spanish footballer at age 30, or other naturalised players.

Haaland is not treated as an ambiguous player, and with good reason. Both his parents are Norwegian. He moved there at 3. He was educated in Norway. He learned his profession in Norway. He was never approached by the English FA. Not even the Daily Mail would claim him as English.

Schmidt was born in the USA to German and Japanese parents. He moved to Japan at age 2 and was educated there. Unlike Haaland, he would be born a citizen of the USA, but that has no relevance to his football career if the USA never pursued him. MOS:CONTEXTBIO "neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the opening paragraph unless relevant to the subject's notability."

I'm sure with Schmidt, and there must be other players too, the "Haaland precedent" simplifies their nationality. Unknown Temptation (talk) 21:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd agree with you that simply Japanese would be accurate. Only complication is the categories saying American which as you have mentioned are technically correct due to birthright. I think Raheem Sterling is a similar example. Crowsus (talk) 22:27, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand what's the issue? Schmidt represents a country he wasn't born in. Therefore, it's not clear-cut to present him as a one nationality player like Haaland who represents the country he was born in (and hasn't had any other possible eligibility as you said). --SuperJew (talk) 22:51, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Erling Haaland was born in Leeds, so it is a very similar situation. Spike 'em (talk) 22:58, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry my bad. Probably should've been stated by OP. --SuperJew (talk) 23:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to have occurred in this edit in January this year. I can't see any discussion about it, so would simply reverse it. Living in Japan since an early age and representing only that country in internationals makes him Japanese to me. Spike 'em (talk) 13:53, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-relevant discussion regarding Giuseppe Rossi, born in America but represented Italy. I believe the nationality should be listed in the opening in most cases personally. The only time I can see it getting a little convoluted is if a player represents multiple countries, either at senior or junior levels. SunnyTango (t • c) 14:09, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the United States, naturalness counts jus solis, and in Japan jus sanguinis. He definitely has dual nationality. Svartner (talk) 23:45, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Crown Dependencies and flags.

I know this has come up time and time before but am I correct in thinking that on football club articles the correct flag for players from the Crown Dependencies is England as per FIFA eligibility rules. The reason being the Crown Dependences are not members of Fifa in their own right but rather part of the English FA?

Obviously there are exceptions to this for example Luke Harris was born in Jersey but plays for Wales so Wales would be the correct flag. C. 22468 Talk to me 14:30, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A player from Jersey has the Jersey flag, a player from Guernsey has the Guernsey flag - same with Martinique and others. Giant Snowman 14:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jersey is not a FIFA or UEFA member though and doesn't compete in internationally recognised football, it is part of the English FA. on the other hand Martinique is a member of CONCACAF and does compete in FIFA recognised events. C. 22468 Talk to me 14:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Does the relevant football association have to be a member of FIFA? Although Jersey is not a FIFA member, they are recognised by FIFA. – Pee Jay 16:53, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

the Jersey FA is recognised as a county of the (English) FA by FIFA in the same way a county association is. In simple terms the Jersey FA has the same status as the Birmingham FA yet we wouldn't use the Birmingham flag for Jude Bellingham we would use the England flag. C. 22468 Talk to me 17:39, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is the basis for all of these assertions you are making? We have always displayed Channel Islands footballers by their island, not as 'England'. Giant Snowman 18:16, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide a link to show this? I can't seem to find any consensus on the topic. All articles clearly state Note: Flags indicate national team as defined under FIFA eligibility rules. Players may hold more than one non-FIFA nationality.. Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man are not FIFA Nationalities. C. 22468 Talk to me 18:30, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, please do not edit articles until there is consensus. Secondly, sources say his 'nationality' is Guernsey, see this. You're the only one wanting to change this. Thirdly, for links, see e.g. this where Brett Pitman has a Jersey flag - as he has done for his entire career... Giant Snowman 18:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be the only one opposing this, It's been discussed before Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football/Archive_84#non-FIFA_nationality. Soccorway can put whatever flag it wants for someone but it's FIFA who decides the FIFA nationality not Soccerway. C. 22468 Talk to me 18:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please find something more recent than 10 years ago... Giant Snowman 18:52, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unless you can show me the consensus has changed then that is what we should go by. Guernsey isn't a FIFA nationality. C. 22468 Talk to me 18:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Look at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 121#Flag question and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 124#Nationality again. Giant Snowman 18:59, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 112#Non-FIFA nationalities in club squads - "FIFA eligibility rules can applies to non-member of FIFA". Saying he is English is simply not correct.

Or, to look at it another way - if CoolGuy is right, then let's change the flag template to remove options for Guernsey/Jersey, and delete Category:Guernsey footballers etc. Giant Snowman 19:04, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whilst we await further input here, CoolGuy has now violated 3RR at Bradford City - please can somebody revert to restore the status quo? Giant Snowman 18:55, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As all the football club articles state Note: Flags indicate national team as defined under FIFA eligibility rules. Players may hold more than one non-FIFA nationality.. The fact is Gurnsey is not a FIFA nationality unless you can prove otherwise. Maybe we should change the text for that who knows but that is another question altogether. C. 22468 Talk to me 19:03, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is NOTHING that justifies your edit warring. NOTHING. Giant Snowman 19:04, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The text is clear "''Note: Flags indicate national team as defined under FIFA eligibility rules. Players may hold more than one non-FIFA nationality.", Guernsey is not a FIFA nationality. If you don't agree with that text then I can only suggest you change that for every football article. C. 22468 Talk to me 19:08, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The only time Jersey or Guernsey flags should be used is for Muratti Vase match articles. Any other time, the English flag should be used (except where they represented another FIFA member) as the Channel Islands are considered part of England for UEFA/FIFA purposes and we only use flags for FIFA nationality. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 19:30, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've just downloaded the FIFA statutes and it doesn't mention Crown Dependencies at all. It used to be the case that players with a British passport but not from one of the four main nations could choose who to play for, is that not still the case? Crowsus (talk) 19:44, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, it still states as such on Guernsey F.C. - if still correct, my opinion would be that just because the club is a member of the English FA, it doesn't necessarily mean that the players are so they shouldn't be equated with England automatically. Crowsus (talk) 20:10, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then an option may be to have no flag, It's not just Guernsey FC that is affiliated to the English FA rather the whole Bailiwick is under the jurisdiction of the English FA for footballing purposes. As the Crown Dependencies are not members of FIFA in their own right it would be best in my opinion that by default the flag for them should be the England Flag unless other circumstances apply such as the case with Kieran Tierney. C. 22468 Talk to me 20:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Guernsey and Jersey and listed in Category:Men's association football players by nationality. I've been to Jersey and they consider themselves very much as Jerseymen and women, and not English. Mainly because they are Channel Islanders and not English. Just as I am English and not a Channel Islander. It doesn't matter about some technicality about FIFA policy.--Echetus Xe 22:25, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

problem is that goes back to the question it violates"''Note: Flags indicate national team as defined under FIFA eligibility rules. Players may hold more than one non-FIFA nationality." given that the Crown Dependencies are not FIFA nationalities. C. 22468 Talk to me 00:06, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are two options here - either we consider Jersey/Guernsey a 'nationality' for football squad reasons, or we do not. I say that we do/should, for the reasons that EchetusXe gives. Some wording in an old template is irrelevant, and if that's what CoolGuy is going off, then I'm embarrassed for him. Giant Snowman 19:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I assume then you will be starting the discussion about editing the text Template:Football squad start to make it clear we aren't using FIFA nationalities anymore? Also I would appreciate less personal attacks. Maybe you should read WP:NPA. C. 22468 Talk to me 21:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, because we have can have the exception here that proves the rule. Channel Islands are unique. Giant Snowman 21:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will start it then, as you say the template is an old template wording and you can add your voice to the update, it would also be helpful for other editors to know why they are unique. C. 22468 Talk to me 21:50, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

: The player's nationality. Use the name of the country, or its 3-letter IOC country code, rather than an adjective (e.g. "Spain" instead of "Spanish"). This is for the country that the player represents in international football (regardless of nationality of birth or citizenship, or non-FIFA sporting nationalities the player may use in other contexts). If this template is used in a non-FIFA context, then some other nationality might apply; however, this parameter is never for indication of birthplace as such, which has nothing to do with football. is the current text used however as you seem to take issue with this I will start the RfC now. C. 22468 Talk to me 22:44, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An RfC has been started... Spike 'em (talk) 10:46, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How good of CoolGuy to notify us! Giant Snowman 17:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oliver Hamilton

Article was created as a redirect to a season article in 2021. What's the best way to proceed? Have never seen this before. Seasider53 (talk) 00:58, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess that was done because that was the only season when he made a senior-level appearance for any club. I remember asking once before whether, in scenarios where a player had only ever made one such appearance, it would be better to redirect to the club season when he did so or to List of XX F.C. players and I don't recall that there was a definitive decision....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We shouldn't create player articles just to redirect - but redirecting is sensible, and matches AFD consensus. Giant Snowman 19:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources Seperated

Hi all,

Just noticed that sources are now being separated onto a different line in Records sections. I've provided a few examples from South Africa, England and France to show what I mean.

Anyone have any idea why this is happening? It seems as though following a bracketed date it now immediately places a line break for some reason. Solutions welcomed! Felixsv7 (talk) 10:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

{{Updated}} had been updated today to use {{Hatnote}}, so I assumed this is what has caused it. I see that {{Updated}} had a second parameter for reference, have you tried adding the ref into there rather than having them separated? Spike 'em (talk) 11:09, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you have a look at User:Spike 'em/sandbox/updated you can see how this is done / how it looks. There is a discussion of this at Template talk:Updated#Convert to module. Spike 'em (talk) 11:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers @Spike 'em:, it looks like they've rolled it back now! Felixsv7 (talk) 11:58, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that was me! Will keep you posted if it gets changed back. Spike 'em (talk) 12:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agustín Módica

The lead on this page I created now says that Módica is an unambiguously Italian footballer. Módica was born in Italy to an Argentine father with Italian ancestors and went back to Argentina when he was 2. Though I don't agree with it, I can see why people would call him indisputably Italian, as he was born there and would be born a citizen as passed on through his father. But I just see that as pretty weird as this is the son of an Argentine, who probably has no memory of Italy at all. No national team has come in to stake a claim to him yet. I think the category "Naturalized citizens of Argentina" can go as WP:OR as that assumes he took a citizenship test to get Argentine nationality, which would be passed on by his parents anywhere in the world. Unknown Temptation (talk) 18:05, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He's more Argentine than Italian, as birth and distant descent do not confer nationality in most countries, but birthplace of parent does. I'm sure dual citizen is accurate, but we're well into the territory of 'more than 1 nationality = drop the adjective'. Crowsus (talk) 18:31, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

BDFA says he is Italian - as do non-Argentine sources, such as Soccerway. I don't think it's ambiguous here. Giant Snowman 19:22, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination of Algeria–Egypt football rivalry for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Algeria–Egypt football rivalry is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Algeria–Egypt football rivalry until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Left guide (talk) 10:49, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Riyad Mahrez place of birth

@Nathan2718: is edit warring here and trying to change the place of birth - please see Talk:Riyad Mahrez#Place of birth, all input welcome to sort this. Giant Snowman 21:49, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notability of Tunisia football "rivalries"

I came across a set of articles for purported "rivalries" involving Tunisia that look flimsy on the surface as far as passing WP:GNG, being almost entirely synthesized via ref-bombs of match reports and stats databases:

I've considered AfD but haven't had the time to do a full WP:BEFORE search yet. What do others think? Left guide (talk) 06:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your assessment and while BEFORE should not be overlooked, clearly the creator has made no effort to demonstrate notability when mass-creating, so would probably also ignore any improvement tags, so AfD is appropriate IMO to either prompt action or lead onto removal if appropriate. Crowsus (talk) 16:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Detailed voting results of the 2024 Ballon d'Or

Detailed voting results of the 2024 Ballon d'Or is a recently created page that's yet to be assessed. Perhaps someone from this WikiProject could take a look at it and assess it? I'm also wondering whether this type of stand-alone article is needed since 2024 Ballon d'Or seems to cover the matter fairly well, and there doesn't seem to be other articles of a similar type for the previous years of the award. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems total overkill to me. -Koppapa (talk) 07:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. Totally unnecessary level of detail. Is the article creator planning to include the results from all 100 countries????? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:59, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, pretty WP:INDISCRIMINATE to me. Spike 'em (talk) 10:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why exactly is it that much overkill when we also include detailed voting results for Eurovision i.e.

The voting results are published anyway, so why can't we have a page with them. I could see a merge with the main page, but wouldn't that page become a bit too long then? Thomediter (talk) 11:41, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with above, overkill and not needed. Kante4 (talk) 11:51, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I had found this very very very very useful. The format published for the detailed voting result by France Football is not very accessible. This good information.

There are compact ways that you can present it - like a 100 row and 30 col table. DavidDublin (talk) 14:09, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AFC Ajax

Maybe a few more eyes need to be kept on the article, following the riots, it seems content was added, which is highly contentious and could evolve into some kind of edit war. So, any help would be appreciated, especially from those admins around here. Regards. Govvy (talk) 10:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of players by club

Standard naming for this is List of X F.C. players - apart from in USA, where it's All-time X FC roster, see Category:Lists of soccer players by club in the United States. Is there any reason for this, or why the USA should not match the rest of the world? Giant Snowman 12:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Korede Adedoyin name

This player has always been known as 'Korede Adedoyin' - except when he signed for Raith Rovers, he was suddenly known as 'Cody David'. Can anybody find a source explaining the change? Giant Snowman 13:50, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/football/5112488/cody-david-korede-adedoyin-raith-rovers-everton/ cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:55, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fab, thanks! Giant Snowman 16:13, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Youth title in Olympiacos honor section

Hey there! Why is the uefa youth league title that Olympiacos F.C. Youth Academy won, shown on the senior team Olympiacos F.C.? Shouldn't it be removed and kept on the youth article, because they were the ones who won it, not the senior team? Speun (talk) 21:19, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, it's not a 'honour' for the (senior) team. Giant Snowman 22:38, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image query

Hello all. I currently have Teddy Wynyard (Old Carthusians 1881 FA Cup winner) at FAC. A reviewer is wondering when/where the following picture was published. Would anyone have any ideas, perhaps a book?

AA (talk) 22:30, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]