Wikipedia talk:Teahouse
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"Publish" vs. "save"
[edit]I'm curious to hear from other hosts about what you've been encountering with editors being confused by the button to save an edit when creating a new page being labelled "publish" rather than "save," as it used to be. It seems that this has caused a lot of confusion, e.g. here, here (both handled by @331dot), here, and here, among many others. We have the ability to change it at MediaWiki:Publishchanges if we decide to do so. Sdkb talk 02:36, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think we can change it; as I understand it was Wikipedia's lawyers who wanted it changed, to emphasize that every edit is public. Apparently "save" does not carry that implication. I think we just have to live with it. 331dot (talk) 08:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Users think, understandably, that "Publish" means "put in mainspace". Some want to put their draft into mainspace and are puzzled when "Publish" doesn't do that. Others just want to save edits to their draft but can't find a "Save" button. It's strange that lawyers think WP's legal position is stronger when its users don't understand what they're doing. Maproom (talk) 14:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- I've wondered if there was a way to reword it to both make it clear what the button does and satisfy the concerns of the lawyers(who I think are trying to avoid users saying "I didn't know that would be public!" or some other legal concern) but I feel like that would be hard to do in a concise manner with a minimum of confusion. 331dot (talk) 14:46, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- I've thought about it a bit and think the solution isn't in the wording (as both put us in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation), but in a warning dialogue box that says something along the lines of:
This would be enabled by default for non-autoconfirmed users and removed once they become autoconfirmed. Unfortunately, IP addresses would most likely have to be left out as there's no way to differentiate between veteran editors who wish to remain anonymous versus complete newbies. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 14:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC)Warning: Your edits will be publicly viewable. If you wish to keep your edits private you will have to do it off-site.
- Save & publish, instead of the current Publish changes.
- There's already a disclaimer by such buttons (including the "Reply" button on talk pages) giving full details. Bazza 7 (talk) 14:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Speculating about what's legally necessary rather than seeking clarification is a surefire way for us to get bogged down in circles. @Slaporte (WMF), can you let us know if there's any legal reason the button needs to say "publish" rather than "save"? Sdkb talk 16:26, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- The answer (I assume Slaporte isn't going answer at this point) is because "Save" led to a lot of newbies believing that the contents were being saved privately, and thus were a perfectly safe place to make a note about your password, or your home phone number, or to stash a copy of a copyrighted text that you meant to cite. We also had problems with students who thought that 'Save' meant 'My supervising teacher will not be able to see this yet'. The UI needs to give people the information that they need to protect their privacy. Since the meaning of 'Save' shifted in the public's mind from the 1990s idea of 'This puts a copy on a hard disk' to the 2010s idea of 'When I save my e-mail draft, it does not send it to anyone yet', new users didn't feel like what they expected from a 'Save' button is what they actually got from the big blue button.
- It's probably worth noting that the group of experienced editors who never complain about this change are the ones who worked in Wikipedia:Oversight before this change was made.
- If memory serves, the Hebrew Wikipedia got approval from WMF Legal to use "Save and publish". I don't know whether this solves any actual problems. I assume that the net result is to have newbies ask "Where's the plain 'Save' button? I only want to save it. I don't want to publish it yet." At the time, a significant part of their idea was that it would ease the transition by retaining and expanding the old wording, rather than replacing it completely. I do not think that such a change would be helpful to us. (Also, as a matter of pure personal aesthetics, I don't happen to like it myself.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- Speculating about what's legally necessary rather than seeking clarification is a surefire way for us to get bogged down in circles. @Slaporte (WMF), can you let us know if there's any legal reason the button needs to say "publish" rather than "save"? Sdkb talk 16:26, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- I've thought about it a bit and think the solution isn't in the wording (as both put us in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation), but in a warning dialogue box that says something along the lines of:
- I've wondered if there was a way to reword it to both make it clear what the button does and satisfy the concerns of the lawyers(who I think are trying to avoid users saying "I didn't know that would be public!" or some other legal concern) but I feel like that would be hard to do in a concise manner with a minimum of confusion. 331dot (talk) 14:46, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- See this announcement for background (and further discussion further down the page). 57.140.16.57 (talk) 19:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- I do regularly (though not frequently) encounter questions from new users who are confused by the publish button. I find it somewhat embarrassing to have to trot out the "it's a legal requirement that's been forced on us" explanation on each occasion. It is time-consuming to have to explain what the difference between 'publish' and 'Publish' means. But I haven't experienced the constant confusion amongst large numbers of new editors that I had actually expected. If I could change it back, I would, as it's the most logical title when saving edits in a draft. But I suspect most new users manage to understand it well enough, and that we are where we are, and are stuck with it. Nick Moyes (talk) 23:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- What about displaying different words to different user access levels? Autoconfirmed and above could stick with Publish; non-autoconfirmed could get Save publicly and a separate disclaimer above or below the edit summary textbox to the effect of
Everything saved to Wikipedia is immediately publicly visible
.I suspect a knock-on effect of the Publish wording is people leaving the editing interface open too long (till they're ready to "Publish") and being unable to commit edits made due to the "no stashed content" Mediawiki error, which is something we get questions about several times monthly. So even though we don't hear specifically about the wording very often, I suspect adding clarity for newer editors may help in that regard.Of course, I just realised people might get even more confused when the wording changes upon becoming autoconfirmed, so this idea is probably at least mostly dumb. At least I necroed a whole thread about it. Folly Mox (talk) 10:55, 26 July 2024 (UTC)- If we thought it was a significant source of confusion, we could add a little pop-up note for first edits that says "Everything on Wikipedia is public. There is no way to save a private copy on wiki." But I don't think it's that big of a problem. If I were going to add a message, it would probably be about the desirability of citing sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:27, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- What about displaying different words to different user access levels? Autoconfirmed and above could stick with Publish; non-autoconfirmed could get Save publicly and a separate disclaimer above or below the edit summary textbox to the effect of
Uh, what exactly is the "Teahouse"?
[edit]I'm still kind of confused, sorry if this shouldn't be written here. Crylophosaurus (talk) 03:03, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Hi, Crylophosaurus. The Teahouse is just a place where beginners can ask questions about how to edit Wikipedia. Actually, anybody can ask, but it is aimed at beginners. It is just like the Help desk except that people here at the Teahouse make an extra effort to be patient and not "bite" the newbies.--Gronk Oz (talk) 06:11, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Gronk Oz How do I ask a question at the teahouse? I am working on a device with some restrictions and cannot use any links that redirect out of the Wikipedia app. Do I just edit the question in? Jacobacademy (talk) 19:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hi, @Jacobacademy: Sorry you are having trouble. You don't have to leave the app to ask a question. If you go to the Teahouse (WP:TEA), you will see a big blue button near the top that says "Ask a Question". Press that and it will open an edit window for a new question. Or if you prefer you could edit the page to add your question at the bottom - but the button is the better way (especially since multiple people might be editing at once, which can cause problem with clashing edits). Note that the page you are on now is not the Teahouse itself - this is its Talk page, to discuss how the Teahouse works, raise problems with it, etc. So to ask a general question about editing Wikipedia, make sure you go to WP:TEA first. I hope that helps.--Gronk Oz (talk) 01:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Gronk Oz How do I ask a question at the teahouse? I am working on a device with some restrictions and cannot use any links that redirect out of the Wikipedia app. Do I just edit the question in? Jacobacademy (talk) 19:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Are we allowed to remove questions?
[edit]Hi. I was wondering if removal of posts are allowed, if it is obvious that the asker is not here for help. (Such as this one) Thanks! '''[[User:CanonNi]]'''
(talk|contribs) 11:05, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Hi CanonNi. In my opinion, your best bet is to probably follow the guidance in WP:TPO, particularly WP:TPG#Off-topic posts. If you assess the post to be a serious violation of a policy like WP:BLP, WP:OUTING, WP:COPY, etc., you can probably remove it asap but should leave an appropriate edit summary explaining why. You then probably should seek assistance from an administrator (there are usually a few active at the Teahouse at various times of the day but there's always one at WP:AN) and ask them to review it because it might need to be WP:REVDEL if it's really bad. If it's a case of someone posting too much of their own personally identifying information (email addresses, phone numbers, real names, etc.), you can use the template {{redacted}} as well, politely explain to the person who posted why, and then contact an admininstrator or WP:OVERSIGHT to see if revdel or WP:SUPPRESS is needed. If it's just someone rambling about something unrelated to the Wikipedia per editing or something not really within the scope of the Teahouse (i.e. a general reference question), you can politely respond that such a thing isn't within the scope of the Teahouse and redirect the person to another Wikipedia page or another external website (if one exists). You can try to answer the person's question if you want, but that might lead to further discussion that might end up needing to be closed at some point. A lot could depend on the context of the post. For certain things, sometimes this posting a WP:DISCLAIMER like response works best because trying to delve into too much detail (especially about sensitive subject matters) might create a new set of problems.The account who made the post you're asking about has already been blocked for disruption, so there's no point in warning them about. The posts it made at the Teahouse have already been removed by an administrator named Graham87. For reference, though, posts like this could probably be non-contentiously removed per WP:R VAN or WP:TPG#Off-topic posts if you want, but you might want to check the poster's contributions' history first to see whether they're just drive by posting and have already been dealt with or they could possibly be asking a "legit" question. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:11, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed reply! I understand now.
'''[[User:CanonNi]]'''
(talk|contribs) 13:31, 21 April 2024 (UTC)- @CanonNi How do I put in a question. Do I edit it in? Jacobacademy (talk) 19:18, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed reply! I understand now.
Wikitia discussion seems to have moved beyond the scope of the Teahouse
[edit]@Anachronist and PrimeHunter: I think that WP:THQ#Deleting a page probably should be closed down because it has moved beyond the scope of the Teahouse. Assuming that the OP isn't trolling, there's nothing Wikipedia can do about Wikitia anyway and the IP's/OP's last response has even further moved a discussion in a direction that's just might lead to some things being posted that shouldn't be posted. Since you two are admins and both responded to the OP, the discussion could be continued on the OP's user talk page if either of you want to, but I don't see anything further to be gained by doing so at the Teahouse. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Anyone can close a discussion, it doesn't have to be an administrator. I just wrapped it in archive tags. ~Anachronist (talk) 15:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm aware of that anyone can close a discussion, but I figured I give one of you the chance to do so given that the two of you had posted several responses; moreover, as admins, you're also capable of WP:REVDEL if you deem it to be necessary. Anyway, it's a moot point now since you closed the discussion and another user courtesy blanked it. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:23, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 27 June 2024
[edit]![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I asked my actual question here, whoops. I would like to request permission to ask questions in the Teahouse. TheSoS9k 16:47, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
Done – sorry, there was some spamming so editing is temporarily restricted. It'll be back to normal in a few hours. If you need to reply to a comment on your question, just reply here and notify the user with
{{ping|username}}
. Tollens (talk) 17:00, 27 June 2024 (UTC)- @Tollens How do I put in a question? Jacobacademy (talk) 19:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
First edit stats
[edit]Some of you might be interested in some first edit stats I asked for.
BLUF: 70% of first edits are to an existing page, and 90% of those are to the mainspace/articles. If your first edit is to create a new page, then a third of them get deleted within the first week. Only 1 in 60 of those first-edit page creations get moved to the mainspace, and about 20% of those get deleted shortly afterwards.
The queries are quarry:query/84512 and quarry:query/84486 if anyone ever wants to re-run them in the future. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:42, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- My quotable takeaway factoid from the above synopsis is Editors who attempt to create a new Wikipedia article as their first action have a 1-in-75 success rate. Folly Mox (talk) 11:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- That sounds about right. And it's likely much lower (perhaps by about an order of magnitude) than in our pre-ACTRIAL systems. We are probably losing notable subjects because of the hoop-jumping required by NPP and AFC. There are downsides as well as upsides to our current systems. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:30, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- For sure. We've got a lot of priorities to balance, and pervasive lack of agreement on the weightings. I'm really grateful for your involvement. Folly Mox (talk) 14:49, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- That sounds about right. And it's likely much lower (perhaps by about an order of magnitude) than in our pre-ACTRIAL systems. We are probably losing notable subjects because of the hoop-jumping required by NPP and AFC. There are downsides as well as upsides to our current systems. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:30, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
"Teahouse (Wikipedia)" listed at Redirects for discussion
[edit]
The redirect Teahouse (Wikipedia) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 July 4 § Teahouse (Wikipedia) until a consensus is reached. cogsan (nag me) (stalk me) 12:28, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
How do I ask a question?
[edit]I don't know how to edit one in and I am incapable of using the "Ask a question" link because I cannot use links that redirect me outside of the Wikipedia app. Jacobacademy (talk) 19:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Jacobacademy I just noticed that from the app the button redirects you to the browser. You can then ask your question from the browser (I would recommend it over the app). Alternatively, from the app, go to Wikipedia:Teahouse, scroll down to the last topic at the bottom of the page, click the edit button and add a new topic there. Make sure you add a header for your topic between double equal signs, like this: == Header ==.
- Note for the Teahouse experts: the button should not redirect outside the app. Anyone knows how this could be fixed? Broc (talk) 21:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- This appears to be because the template {{clickable button 2}} takes
|url=
as a parameter, which requires a full URL, not a wikilink. This is presumably done to immediately put the user into edit mode, and it would be impossible to do so with a wikilink. With the introduction of DiscussionTools and the Reply tool I'm not sure how redundant that would make the button. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:10, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- This appears to be because the template {{clickable button 2}} takes
Welco
me
to
the
Teaho
use!
[edit]Hi all. Please try looking at WP:TH on a phone in mobile view mode and in its default portrait mode. Many users will see it this way. Sadly, our Teahouse image is so large that it forces our welcome message to be (rather humorously) spread across 6 separate lines as shown:
Welco
me
to
the
Teaho
use!
I think we need to fix this so that the image size is reduced in mobile view and the text reads more normally. Hopefully, some experienced template editors could take a look? Pinging Sdkb who, I know, has worked on this before. Cheers, Nick Moyes (talk) 17:56, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Definitely a problem. Coding a more mobile-friendly header requires someone with more knowledge of HTML stylings than me, though. Sdkb talk 19:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, Sdkb. Maybe @PrimeHunter could suggest how we might take this forward. Perhaps a post at WP:VPT asking for help? Nick Moyes (talk) 04:06, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Nick Moyes @Sdkb I fixed it, see diff, by ensuring the Teahouse image is at most 50% of the total width in mobile view. I tested it with various mobile sizes and it seems to work well. Please let me know if you find a bug or the change is not to your liking. Broc (talk) 10:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Broc Thank you! That looks a whole lot better now. On my mobile, it's nearly, but not quite perfect, as I'm seeing the header welcome message properly laid out, although the text beneath it (i.e. "Your go-to place... ...and editing Wikipedia") all right justified, apart from the last two words (..."editing Wikpedia") which I suspect have slipped under the Teahouse image and now appear centrally justified. But I can live with that. Thanks again, Nick Moyes (talk) 13:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Nick Moyes that was already happening on my phone (which I assume has a higher resolution than yours). The reason for this is that the "Welcome to the Teahouse!" message is in the same column of the buttons "Ask a question" etc. "Sticking" the column to the right would cause all the buttons to appear on the right side instead of full-size.
- It's not an unsolvable issue but it would require some larger changes, so I decided to only apply this minor fix. Broc (talk) 15:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- That’s absolutely fine. I didn’t mean to sound critical. We’re grateful that you’ve made it look a lot better than it was. Thanks again, Nick Moyes (talk) 23:41, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Broc Thank you! That looks a whole lot better now. On my mobile, it's nearly, but not quite perfect, as I'm seeing the header welcome message properly laid out, although the text beneath it (i.e. "Your go-to place... ...and editing Wikipedia") all right justified, apart from the last two words (..."editing Wikpedia") which I suspect have slipped under the Teahouse image and now appear centrally justified. But I can live with that. Thanks again, Nick Moyes (talk) 13:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Nick Moyes @Sdkb I fixed it, see diff, by ensuring the Teahouse image is at most 50% of the total width in mobile view. I tested it with various mobile sizes and it seems to work well. Please let me know if you find a bug or the change is not to your liking. Broc (talk) 10:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, Sdkb. Maybe @PrimeHunter could suggest how we might take this forward. Perhaps a post at WP:VPT asking for help? Nick Moyes (talk) 04:06, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
How it was going
[edit]Apologies to DandelionAndBurdock, RudolfRed, Cordless Larry, and CFA for my recent deletion of the thread "How’s it going", complete with their well-meant contributions; but as the thread developed it became increasingly obvious that the original (and repeated) poster was either an extraordinarily silly person or an attention-seeking troll; either way, a time-waster. There's no point indulging such people. -- Hoary (talk) 22:09, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's understandable. I was going to close the discussion until I saw that the instructions at Template:Hidden archive top state that that should only be done by an uninvolved editor. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:02, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- The IPs have now been blocked for block evasion and trolling. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:03, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
"Searc..." and "Se..."
[edit]The above two strings are what render in Wikipedia:Teahouse/Header on my device when the "search help pages" button is labeled "Search Help" and "Search", respectively. Can someone who knows what they're doing (evidently not me: see my bungled attempt) have a go at reformatting Wikipedia:Teahouse/Host lounge/Announcements/1 or the header itself such that a full word appears on the search button on narrow screens? Folly Mox (talk) 10:28, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Please let me know if this makes the "Search Help" button look stupider for anyone. I imagine the true fix is getting it to display the same regardless of client parameters, but– Special:Diff/1236986938
Resolved
Works for me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Folly Mox (talk) 14:59, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Follow-up on Bot inoperable
[edit]@Usernamekiran and Frostly: happy Friday! No news from Tigraan, I presume? Is the revival of Muninnbot still ongoing? Thanks for bearing with yet another check in. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 16:13, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
Help the Wikimedia Foundation better understand how on-wiki collaborations work
[edit]The Campaigns team at the Wikimedia Foundation is interested in learning from diverse editors that have experience joining and working on WikiProjects, Campaigns, and other kinds of on-wiki collaboration. We need your help:
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Whatever input you bring to the two spaces will help us make better decisions about next steps beyond the current tools we support. Astinson (WMF) (talk) 18:12, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
What's up with the search bar?
[edit]Has there always been so many questions about the search bar? This seems to also be a very recurring question on the help desk. I know it's fixable by unzooming, but is this intentionnal or a bug? The best documentation we have is this... : Wikipedia:Help desk#Search tool and is what I see often linked. Thanks! win8x (talking | spying) 22:39, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- I remember an influx of interface-related questions when the WMF decided to change the default skin to Vector 2022. Was there an update a while back that changed some interface elements? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:50, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- That's what I was wondering. It seems like a pretty bad accessibility issue if users with high zoom can't see the search bar, and afaik I haven't seen these questions before the one I linked above, from 6 September. win8x (talking | spying) 01:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I played around with the zoom levels on Chrome. As far as I can tell, the search bar disappears when pages are viewed at 150% zoom, and at that point the user has to click on the
that appears next to
at the top of the page. Doing so causes the search bar to appear and hide the
and the Wikipedia logo in the top-left corner. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 01:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I played around with the zoom levels on Chrome. As far as I can tell, the search bar disappears when pages are viewed at 150% zoom, and at that point the user has to click on the
- That's what I was wondering. It seems like a pretty bad accessibility issue if users with high zoom can't see the search bar, and afaik I haven't seen these questions before the one I linked above, from 6 September. win8x (talking | spying) 01:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)