Talk:John Hay

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Untitled[edit]

I don't think there is enough in this article about the relationship of John Hay with President Lincoln, and I have tried to add some.

Andrew Szanton 5/06

--Editorial Content--

This line is completely inappropriate, and I'm removing it:

This is unlikely to be the case, but it does honor Hay for the quality of his writing; no one else around President Lincoln but the President himself could have written this letter with such grace.

This is not cited. It's the opinion of this author who has no intimate knowledge of the subject.

Diplomat, not politician[edit]

I removed "politician" from the article, seeing little basis for that term, and added "diplomat," seeing considerable basis for that one. Objections? AllanJ 17:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Why is this merely a political biography? The man had a wife and children, too. NickJones 05:36 September 28 2006

I have edited incorrect information about the Hay/Adams house in Washington, D.C. The original houses designed by H.H. Richardson are no longer standing. The building that occupies the site is named the Hay Adams hotel in their honor, but was built after both John Hay and Henry Adams were dead.

In 1904 Hay gave to engraver Haydon Jones a silver match case and the mohogany lap desk which Lincon used to write the hand written part of the gettysburg adress.The typed draft was left in washington. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.27.218 (talk) 04:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Lincoln's death, premonition?[edit]

Apparently Lincoln had a premonition of his death and mentioned it to Hay, who later wrote it about it in a book. Robert Todd Lincoln had problem with it, he thought it was too personal. In 1881 James Garfield had those premonitions and called upon Robert Todd Lincoln to talk about it, and Robert Todd Lincoln was there at the 6th St. Train Station in DC when Garfield was assassinated. No mention of any of this in the article? --98.232.180.37 (talk) 09:55, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

John Hay the Ottomans for help against Moro Muslims[edit]

John Hay instructed American minister to Turkey, Oscar Straus (politician) to ask Ottoman Sultan Abdul Hamid II for help with the Moro Muslims. The Sultan then sent a letter to the Moros of the Sulu Sultanate telling them not to resist American takeover and cooperate with the Americans at the start of the Moro Rebellion in 1898. The Sulu Moros complied with the order.

http://books.google.com/books?id=PvVlS3ljx20C&pg=PA235&dq=Pleased+sultan+Philippines+khalif+Sulu+chiefs+understanding&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sGYZU4-EC-vC0AGgmYGgDg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Pleased%20sultan%20Philippines%20khalif%20Sulu%20chiefs%20understanding&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=PvVlS3ljx20C&pg=PA235&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=S5q7qxi5LBgC&pg=PA397&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=zOLE6zY-AewC&pg=PA22&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=2mRXt7NtFhEC&pg=PA159&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=pc5FAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA204&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=hwdPWJMbZCQC&pg=PA358&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=e9vfAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA358&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false


http://books.google.com/books?id=vDzjkrTDKjYC&pg=PA405#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=vDzjkrTDKjYC&pg=PA406&dq=Abdulhamid+issued+decree+people+territory+support+America+Muslim+accepted&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2GYZU6m3IonU0QHHmoCQAw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Abdulhamid%20issued%20decree%20people%20territory%20support%20America%20Muslim%20accepted&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 20:37, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Lead image[edit]

Any objection to swapping the lead image for this higher resolution one? It's not as tightly cropped, although, if we must, we could do so. Adam Cuerden (talk) 01:22, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

My main concern is the shadow on the left side of his face.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:03, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Reduced the shadow a bit; see if that works. Adam Cuerden (talk) 00:45, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Not that thrilled. We're still losing a lot of the guy's face. This may be a case where "higher definition" does not mean "better".--Wehwalt (talk) 12:12, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Well, as I said, feel free to move it down. The original looks like a photocopy to me, though if we had a better quality scan of it, there'd be no competition. That said, are you sure your contrast or black level isn't set a bit high? Adam Cuerden (talk) 15:37, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
The shadow doesn't bother me so much, as it's slight. What bothers me is that the subject looks dark and distant. I would recommend cropping off some of the dark space on the top, zooming in toward Hay's face (via more cropping), and doing mild brightening. Stevie is the man! TalkWork 17:57, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
The trouble is, if you brighten too much, it starts looking really unnatural. And if you crop too much, it starts to move away from being the original historic image. Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:11, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
OK, then it's unusable then. It's too dark and distant. We need an image that focuses on the subject front and center. Stevie is the man! TalkWork 14:03, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

At this point, I think we should go back to the previous image until a better one can be found. The new one doesn't work for reasons stated by two contributors. This isn't to say the previous one is perfect, of course, but it was longstanding and served the purpose good enough. Stevie is the man! TalkWork 14:11, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I've said about ten times: Feel free to move it elsewhere in the article. Having a zoomed-out image is useful, even if a zoomed-in one is preferred for the infobox. This is a style of photography that was popular in the early 20th century (compare 1, 2); the old lead - which I've even cleaned up a little - is an enduring classic style. Illustrations should not be excessively modified, so as to no longer reflect the original artistic choices if we're actually using them to document history.
When a new ability comes in - like "We could set up lighting as part of our photography! The early examples tend to use it a bit to excess before calming down and stepping back. Think of 1980s 3D movies, for instance. Adam Cuerden (talk) 16:10, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Your arguments are interesting, but I'm unsure how they correlate to suitability as a lead image for this article. We need to concentrate on the best lead image without concern to explanations we might make for approaches used at the time of the image's creation. The simple question is: Is it a good lead image or not? Anyway, I'll take your recommendation for moving the new image down in the article, and restoring the previous one for the lead. Stevie is the man! TalkWork 17:53, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Oh, I never said my reasons, did I? Remember that Wikipedia doesn't mark the resolutions of images under their thumbnails, so I think that if you start with a low-resolution image, people may give up clicking on images before the high-res images appear. Hence, given a low-res and a high-res image, I'll give more weight to high-res for the first couple images in the article, just to show that there are good images available. Adam Cuerden (talk) 20:10, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
I understand high resolution as one quality we consider, and it would be nice if we had a higher resolution of the current lead image, but I'm honestly not sure how the average user traverses an article in terms of images, and whether the resolutions of them affect that traversal. The current lead image seems to have a good enough resolution for the purposes of an article. Are there particular devices you have in mind where a user would see the lead image, then think they need to see a higher-res one? On my laptop, it looks pretty good. Stevie is the man! TalkWork 21:30, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Well, think of someone looking for an image of someone. They'll tend to start at the top and work down. If everything they find in the first, say, five images is fairly low quality (moreso for thumbnail-sized images, admittedly), they may stop before getting to a high-res image. Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:23, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
I honestly don't see this point. Articles aren't image libraries. Stevie is the man! TalkWork 19:17, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Actually, they are for some people. They need an image of something, they'll scan the Wikipedia page first, presuming it'll highlight the best free-use images. Adam Cuerden (talk) 13:58, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Hearing or claiming to hear[edit]

Re: the statement "He heard War Secretary Edwin Stanton's declaration, "Now he belongs to the ages."", does the reference corroborate that Hay heard it, or does Hay claim to have heard it? That would seem to make a difference in how it's worded. There's nothing wrong with healthy skepticism if it is properly placed. Stevie is the man! TalkWork 19:14, 16 August 2014 (UTC)