Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ivy Bean

Ivy Bean

Ivy Bean (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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• Delete. Notability not established, fleeting Internet "celebrity". References are limited to Facebook and Twitter, no references of any substance or reliability. WWGB (talk) 10:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Delete. Only "references" are Twitter and Facebook? No. — Timneu22 · talk 10:55, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I have no opinion either way, but the BBC does have an article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10787726 Arnie Side (talk) 11:16, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. —WWGB (talk) 10:56, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. —WWGB (talk) 10:56, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. Notability is established through the BBC article linked above. --Viennese Waltz ^talk 11:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:BLP1E, WP:NOTNEWS and WP:NOTMEMORIAL. Lugnuts (talk) 12:48, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Ella Schuler is the oldest facebook user, Ivy Bean is still the oldest person to use both facebook AND twitter, I assume shes the oldest person on twitter. Longevitydude (talk) 13:31, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Or was until today. --Viennese Waltz ^talk 13:44, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

She was the oldest person to be using both twitter and facebook. Longevitydude (talk) 14:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I know what you said, I was just saying that you put "is still the oldest person" which is not strictly correct. --Viennese Waltz ^talk 15:26, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

What I meant was, even though she was not the oldest facebook user, she was still the oldest twitter user and therefore the oldest person to use both websites. Longevitydude (talk) 18:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• Keep sufficient coverage. Longevitydude (talk) 14:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Delete per Lugnuts's arguments. No lasting significance of this person, trivial, WP:ONEVENT, WP:NOTNEWS.--137.122.49.102 (talk) 15:05, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep per User:Longevitydude. WereWolf (talk) 17:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep or Merge with Facebook/Twitter. Swedish newpaper Aftonbladet noted her death: [1], so she has at least received coverage in Great Britain (BBC link above) and Sweden, and probably more. At least merge the info about her because she is notable enough to be mentioned. Because it's hard to say where to merge the article (Facebook or Twitter) it's easier to just keep the article. (Musicians that have been active in two notable bands receive their own article.) Jiiimbooh (talk) 19:18, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep for now - There might be more to her story than we know now, she is in fact a centenarian.-99.98.165.151 (talk) 19:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Sir, please read WP:NOTE#Notability_is_not_temporary Longevitydude (talk) 19:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

The fact that she lived that longs adds to her notability not the basis of it.--99.98.165.151 (talk) 20:44, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Being old and using a computer isn't notable. Lugnuts (talk) 06:42, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

• Delete Trivia. PR stunt all round. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 19:43, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. She has been recognized as the worlds oldest twitterer, her death was reported by several national newspapers all over the world, and she has also been recognized through British media at previous points. She was also THE oldest person and Twitter, with several other notable Twitter-users, such as Stephen Fry being admirers, aswell as expressing their sadness on news of her death. If this isnt substantial enough for this article to live, than half of Wikipedia should be deleted along with, on the exact same criteria. --Lilduff90 (talk) 19:58, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
  • And just to prove my point: Norwegian news of her death, CNN, BBC, just to mention a few. Still not satisfied? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilduff90 (talk • contribs) 20:07, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. I believe her to be sufficiently well-known to warrant a Wikipedia article. --WeirdEars (talk) 20:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. Trivia or not, she got a lot of media coverage for being the world's oldest tweeter even before her death. However, there should really be better references in the article than Facebook and Twitter. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 20:59, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Delete one event/not news seem appropriate. Hekerui (talk) 21:15, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep She is well-know. When she died she was reported dead by CNN. Also I think the wikiproject for longevity would keep her beacuse of her fame. Just because she is a Internet celebrity doesn't mean she isn't famous. Look at the other famous Internet stars have pages too. Spongie555 (talk) 23:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Delete for Lugnuts' reasons. Being the oldest person to use Facebook and Twitter doesn't make her notable, even though the BBC has an article on her. Sidebar: In the past we have had so-called "professional bloggers" whose only notoriety was to blog. Have all those articles been deleted? Ivy Bean, as an internet user, may fall in the same or similar category, not meaning any disrespect for the woman. Ed (talk) 23:36, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Delete, as this seems to be a classic one-event case to me... I think that maybe waiting a bit before nominating would have been helpful in establishing whether or not there would be lasting notability, but I'm not particularly swayed by any of the keep arguments thus far. Canadian Paul 03:43, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep as there is enough third-party coverage for notability. Her death has been documented by the Los Angeles Times website and in the far east. Philip Cross (talk) 05:05, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. I will be the first to acknowledge that it's a silly thing to be notable for, but I don't think this is a case of WP:BLP1E. BLP1E says "in the context of a single event". From reading it very carefully, I think the fundamental point of BLP1E is that a single high-profile event doesn't automatically confer notability on every person who is named in relation to that event. People who only played a small role in it, and didn't get coverage that singles them out as an individual beyond that event, aren't worthy of biographical articles, (for example, Tourist guy vs. Peter Guzli) and generally we couldn't write a biographical article on them anyway given that lack of coverage. BLP1E doesn't cover people who are famous for a single achievement or distinction, if (as in this case) the achievement and coverage focuses on them as a person. I'm seeing substantial amounts of coverage about Ivy's personal life, such as this Daily Mail article. Given that and the above articles, I think this has the potential to be a great article. --TexasDex ★ 05:07, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. As above. Silly thing to be famous for but it does document the nature of our time, and this is part of the purpose of an encyclopedia. prat (talk) 08:02, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. As noted above, there are several media articles about her even before her death. Notablility established. Marshall Stax (talk) 08:42, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
• 'Strong delete per Lugnuts "Being old and using a computer isn't notable." Exactly. It is ridiculous. We are supposed to be an encyclopedia. SO we have a biography about a person who used facebook and twitter who happened to be old. If you put it in perspective it is newspaper fodder certainly not long lasting encyclopedic material...She is worthy of mentioning in in either the facebook or twitter articles as being the oldest user but a BIOGRAPHY ARTICLE on her embarrasingly non notable life before the age of 100????? "After several years in Bedford, the family returned to Bradford and Bean began working for Arthur Crossland, a local mill owner." Ooooh soooo notable...... Surely this is ONE EVENT. This is a classic case of where something should be summarized in a parent article on an event/institution, in this case website and refraining from having a biography about the person. There should really be stronger guidelines in this respect if this doesn't fail our WP:ONEEVENT guidelines. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 12:49, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

References

^ http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1408070963&v=wall#!/profile.php?id=1408070963&v=wall&story_fbid=143614238998990 ^ http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=67377155437&ref=search ^ "UK's oldest Tweeter Ivy Bean dies at 104", BBC News, 28 July 2010 ^ "Oldest Tweeter talks cuppas and casserole on Twitter at 104", Daily Telegraph, 15 May 2009 ^ Adam Gabbatt [http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jul/28/ivy-bean-oldest-twitter-dies "Ivy Bean, the oldest person on Twitter, dies at 104", The Guardian, 28 July 2010 ^ Alex Millson "Stars pay tribute to world's oldest Twitter user Ivy Bean after she dies aged 104", Daily Mail, 28 July 2010 ^ http://twitter.com/IvyBean104 ^ http://twitter.com/IvyBean104/status/18588383907 ^ http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1408070963&v=wall#!/profile.php?id=1408070963&v=wall&story_fbid=143614238998990 ^ Norwegian news of her death, CNN, BBC

Looks like sufficient coverage to me, and there are articles about her besides these. Longevitydude (talk) 14:06, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

If this isn't sufficient coverage, I don't know what is, I know she wasn't the oldest facebook user, but she was still the oldest person to be using BOTH websites, she was the oldest person to use a twitter. Longevitydude (talk) 14:09, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

heres a source

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1298433/Ivy-Bean-Stars-pay-tribute-worlds-oldest-Twitter-user.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Stars paying tribute to her, she must be notable if even famous people are noticing her. Longevitydude (talk) 14:16, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

• Keep. There has been coverage in most newspapers today, on the BBC website, and celebrities have expressed their sorrow at her death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.34.34.36 (talk) 16:02, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Read WP:NOTNEWS. So because some celebrities "expressed sorrow at her death" that automatically makes hundred years of her life encyclopedic? Its a frickin event and should be mentioned in the main articles, not in a biography. A media frenzy that a very old woman uses the Inrernet is not a justification for a biography article. Do we start articles for every person who has their fifteen minutes of fame? Who many historical sources do you think we'll find about her life, extensive coverage in google books? This site is becoming more and more a news site everyday....How does this not fail WP:BLP1E, WP:ONEEVENT, WP:NOTNEWS and WP:NOTMEMORIAL?? Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 16:11, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

The point is she was acknowledged by celebrities and politicians, she must be notable to get that kind of attention, and shes got a lot more coverage than just her local newspaper, celebrities and politicians don't give that kind of attention to just anyone, she did something notable to get that attention, she was the oldest person on twitter and the oldest person to use both websites, twitter and facebook, seriously how many people do celebrities acknowledge the way they acknowledged her, let alone as many famous people as the ones who paid her attention, she was important to a lot of people, a lot of people consider her notable and therefore she is, just because a few people don't consider it notable doesn't mean its not notable, why intrude on other people's interests just because you don't agree with them that its notable. Longevitydude (talk) 16:27, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

If shes not notable, then why do so many people fight this afd, or why does she have so much coverage, or dare I ask, why do so many famous people acknowledge her? Longevitydude (talk) 16:29, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

There is a big difference between "famous" people acknowledging that she was old and a nice person who was in the Internet community and her biographical life being remotely encyclopedic. A biographical entry should evenly cover all aspects of her life from birth to death and assert notability. You know what. Hundred years of her avserge, humble life will never be expanded and in the end it comes down to one event, one event which should be written about in the facebook/twitter articles, not seperately. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 16:39, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is certainly notable to discuss her in the history of the facebook/twitter articles but a biography is completely inappropriate. Can you explain to me regardless of how "famous" she is in the views of celebrities we having a biography article about her does not fail WP:BLP1E, WP:ONEEVENT and WP:NOTNEWS. Where is the extensive coverage is books about her entire life? As much as you can argue that she was beloved by politicians and celebs it still comes down to one event and a news report. She is no more notable than Mavis who used the Internet in my late grandmother's nursing home at the age of 98, a media obsession/frenzy does not make her biographical life encyclopedic Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 16:36, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Well marvis didn't have celebrities giving him attention, and he wasn't the oldest person using the internet, and he wasn't getting sufficient coverage. Longevitydude (talk) 16:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

What's highly concerning to me is that you stress so much importance on the views of "famous celebrities" as if they are somehow God given to dictate what is encyclopedic. You stress way too much importance on celebrity culture and media frenzy like so many are guilty of. It still doesn't make her suitable for an individual encyclopedia entry. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 16:43, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

• Delete random nobody who lacks significant coverage in any reliable sources beyond her being the "oldest person on Facebook" (so freakin what?). Fails per WP:BLP1E, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:NOTMEMORIAL and frankly just goes against general WP:COMMONSENSE. What next, the oldest person who uses Facebook, Twitter, and Wikipedia?? -- AnmaFinotera (talk ~ contribs) 16:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

we already have an article on the oldest facebook user, shouldn't the oldest twitter user also have an article, and as for wikipedia, wikipidians can use their user pages for their information. Longevitydude (talk) 16:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

She visited former Prime Minister Gordon Brown and his wife Sarah in Downing Street early in 2010.[6] Some time after creating her Facebook page, Bean also joined Twitter. At the time of her death, she had 4,962 friends on Facebook and more than 56,000 followers on Twitter.[7]

She also met famous people face to face, put all these things about her together and she is notable. Longevitydude (talk) 16:43, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Shes the oldest person to use both twitter AND facebook, shes the oldest twitter user, and combine that with everything else said about her and she is notable, a lot of people agree that she IS notable, not everyone has to agree for her to be notable. Longevitydude (talk) 16:45, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

We should be more tolerant about what other people consider notable and wikipedia is the FREE encyclopedia, yet I don't see a lot of people being free to be interested in stuff they consider notable you act like just because your not interested that no one else is allowed to be. Longevitydude (talk) 16:49, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

If she hasn't had sufficient coverage, then I don't know how much IS sufficient. Longevitydude (talk) 16:51, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZf8MSdBHdQ

She is even considered one of the famous deaths, shes famous, a celebrity, and notable. Longevitydude (talk) 16:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

She could have all of the news outlets in the world reporting her Internet story and that still wouldn't be enough as it fails WP:ONEEVENT. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 16:59, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

The coverage shows that its a notable event. Longevitydude (talk) 17:02, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

She was a celebrity so shes notable we have well enough cyberspace available and not enough light-hearted entries, that'll make this worthwhile. The old lady was a niche-celebrity, granted, but I have seen entries in Wiki that are absolutely unworthy of any consideration and yet are unchallenged in their position. Give the lady a break, I say. Longevitydude (talk) 17:20, 29 July 2010 (UTC) There are articles of far less importance that are happily kept on WP. Just because x% of people have no interest in a particular subject or person doesn't mean that it should be deleted, since perhaps x+1% of WP users are interested but don't say anything. Bear in mind that this lady's notability couild be measured by a relatively high number of Facebook friends. Not a big thing as far as Wikipedia is concerned, but will respectable in that particular community. Also remember than many of her contemporary fans (of whom there are probably not many) will not be computer literate and thus may not be savvy enough to sign up for Wikipedia and argue the case for retaining the article.

Who are we to foresee who will and will not be remembered in the future? I found the link to Ivy's article from the front page, where there is a Recent Deaths link, which lists every death that WP users see fit to record. Will anyone care about the majority of the people on there in 50 years? The same argument for deleting this article could be used about the entire Recent Deaths category in some people's opinion. In addition, will someone in the US really be bothered about some 70s soccer player's bio or an Irish snooker player? Longevitydude (talk) 17:23, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

People whose lives (as opposed to Internet useage) are truly notable will always be notable and will still generate interest in hundred years time. People like Julius Caesar, Henry VIII, Da Vinci, Mozart, Napolean, Churchill, Lennon. In one hundred years time, actually in hundred days time this woman will have been forgotten and the next news report of an 80 year old monkey being a Go champion will be the article of hot topic. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 17:33, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:NOTE#Notability_is_not_temporary She will always be notable no matter how many people remember her, there are a lot of people on wikipedia that hardly anyone pays attention to, but they still have their notability. Longevitydude (talk) 17:39, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

• Keep. I really wanted to !vote "delete" here, but after looking at the sources, I have to go with keep. Regarding the arguments that she has not really done anything of note - well, I learned quite a while ago not to pass judgement on what other people consider notable. As long as there is considerable coverage by mainstream respectable news-outlets, the subject is notable. We should not substitute our value judgement for that of the sources. In this case we have plenty of mainstream coverage (BBC, NPR, etc). Regarding WP:NOTNEWS argument - that argument would apply if we were dealing with one brief spike of coverage lasting a few days or a few weeks. In this case, significant coverage spreads over the period of several years, from 2008 (e.g. here[2][3][4] ) to 2009 (e.g.[5][6][7] ) to 2010, including coverage in 2010 before her death, e.g. [8][9][10]. The coverage is not only national, but also international, e.g. NRP[11], Times of India[12], Sydney Morning Herald[13] (all these are from well before her death). Given the geographical and chronological spread of coverage, this is not a WP:NOTNEWS case. Now, regarding WP:BLP1E argument. First, since she is no longer alive, the thing to cite here is WP:BIO1E rather than WP:BLP1E. Second, and more importantly, this is an example of a frequent misinterpretation of both WP:BLP1E and WP:BIO1E. These principles do tell us to cover the even if it is notable. In the case where notability of an event is significant and the event is essentially about a single person, we still, appropriately so, have articles about the notable events in question (such as various "murder of ..." articles. In this particular case, we might move the title to something like Oldest internet celebrity, but is there really much of a point in doing that? Nsk92 (talk) 17:45, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep The notability of the topic seems clear. For example, see Social Networking for the Older and Wiser or Meeting with Prime Minister. We have extended coverage of this sort over multiple years in major news media and books all over the world - an easy pass of WP:N and WP:BASIC. And how come there's a mob here? Ordinary people don't get this much attention. Colonel Warden (talk) 18:06, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Nobody is disputing that the topic isn't worhty of mentioning in an article about facebook/twitter for being the oldest recognised social networking user or an article about social networking and "extremes". What I and possibly the others are disputing is that why it is necessary to have a biography about somebody who used the Internet for two years and died when over a hundred years of their life is unencyclopedic. It still comes down to ONEEVENT and this is nothing but a news story that will die out within a few days. Do we have an article about the Rochdale bigot woman because she was the subject of a major controversy during the 2010 elections? No. We briefly mention it in a more suitable parent article as an event. This is no different. This is the event of an elderly Internet user who generated some fuss because she was so old and amazed people that she used the Internet. At best it should be summarised in a paragraph in articles about the social networking sites or social networking in general. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 18:17, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

• Your sig seems grotesquely unnecessary but we still have to suffer it wherever you post. If you or others don't want to read the article about this notable lady then it is comparatively easy to avoid. Note that it is our policy that Wikipedia is not paper and that it is not censored. Your outrage is therefore insufficient grounds for deletion. And your reference to ONEVENT is counterfactual as there are numerous separate events and the person in question is the focus of all of them, not an incidental bystander. Colonel Warden (talk) 18:24, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Besides, wikipedia articles add to nobility and make the subjects more likely to be remembered longer. Longevitydude (talk) 18:27, 29 July 2010 (UTC)