Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies

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Help with draft article about YouTube Pride 2021

I have prepared a draft article about YouTube Pride 2021 celebrations User:Peony1432/sandbox. While on first look this appears to be a WP: Crystal Ball event, there are exceptions for well-publicized events that are newsworthy. I am hoping for input and advice from members of this project about how to improve this draft. I should disclose that I have a conflict of interest because I work for Google. Thanks Peony1432 (talk) 20:57, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for disclosing your conflict of interest. I don't believe this topic is notable at the moment, but it likely will be after the event occurs, though I would guess you've been assigned this task to promote this event in advance. But there's no substantial coverage, just announcements of some famous names and that it will exist. Onlookers should note that some of the sources only cover the topic in passing (which is not to say they're not worth including). This isn't a world-famous event like the Olympics and it's not yet been analysed in-depth by commentators. (For instance, if we had a couple of articles finding it ironic that YouTube is doing a Pride video despite being largely responsible for recent far-right anti-LGBTQ mass radicalisation, or saying their priorities should be fixing the systematic censorship of non-sexual queer content from YouTube Kids... well that would change things.) As for improvements, I would mention the date (June 25) in the first sentence and remove "The virtual event will take place around the world" if that just means "It will be on the internet", and clarify it if it's supposed to mean something more substantial. — Bilorv (talk) 22:42, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

As Bilorv said, it doesn't just need to exist and have (your) publicity; per WP:FUTURE #1, the preparation of the future event must be well-documented in reliable sources, enough that were it to be completely cancelled on the day of the event, the preparation itself would be notable enough to justify an article. Asserting that it will be notable in the future does not mean it gets an article today. I also direct you to FUTURE #5 about advertising. Kingsif (talk) 02:04, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestions. Since the event is now over, I updated the draft for YouTube Pride 2021 using past tense and put in more details and sources. Would you mind taking another look? You can find the draft here: User:Peony1432/sandbox. Thank you Peony1432 (talk) 21:32, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I've moved it to "draftspace" where other editors can more easily find and edit it. It's now at Draft:YouTube Pride 2021. Thanks, Peony1432 for your input on this. Star Mississippi 21:52, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

FYI, an editor has moved the draft to mainspace. It is now live at YouTube Pride 2021. InfiniteNexus (talk) 22:51, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

And it's now back in draftspace. I'm not sure what the correct place is for this article as it stands, but I do think it can eventually be ready for mainspace with some work based on coverage I'm seeing. Courtesy @Kingsif: to this discussion. Star Mississippi 19:14, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

@Star Mississippi: Thank you for your work and comments on the Draft:YouTube Pride 2021. Since you said you thought it would be ready for mainspace with more work, I wanted to offer to do this work, with your guidance. What do you suggest I do? Were you thinking of the story about Elton John’s reflections about the day of his marriage and/or Daniel Howell “breaking the internet”?107.185.131.152 (talk) 18:36, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi IP 107. Are you also Peony1432, or a different google staffer looking to work on this. Either is fine, but if you are Peony, it's easier for us to reach you if you log in as we can ping you. Just noting that I see your request and will come back to you later this week when I have a few moments to look into this. Thanks for your help Star Mississippi 22:19, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Star Mississippi: Yes, I am Peony1432. I neglected to sign in last time. Thank you for taking the time to look at my request. Peony1432 (talk) 22:37, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

The 10 most-viewed, worst-quality articles according to this Wikiproject

• 9 Victor Hugo (artist and window dresser) 733,910 23,674 Stub Unknown
• 172 RuPaul's Drag Race (season 13) 145,968 4,708 Stub Unknown
• 203 David Crane (producer) 127,530 4,113 Stub Unknown
• 223 Noah Galvin 121,038 3,904 Stub Unknown
• 24 Schitt's Creek 458,176 14,779 Start Unknown
• 28 Pansexuality 394,705 12,732 Start Unknown
• 32 RuPaul's Drag Race Down Under 382,834 12,349 Start Unknown
• 55 Billy Porter (actor) 295,065 9,518 Start Unknown
• 63 For All Mankind (TV series) 278,992 8,999 Start Unknown
• 65 Emma Portner 276,566 8,921 Start Unknown

Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies/Popular pages--Coin945 (talk) 06:25, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Porter is clearly better than "Start" class by now, as is Pansexuality, which was set to "Start" class over a decade ago and just never updated. :o I left a comment on Talk:Pansexuality highlighting steps that could increase that article's completeness further, too. -sche (talk) 18:53, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Xenogender

So yeah on the article of Non-binary gender I included xenogender in the article because one of the sources mentioned it. Honestly I’m not entirely sure if xenogender is a legit gender identity or something made by conservatives.

Do any of you guys have any opinions on this?CycoMa (talk) 06:37, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

IMO I would avoid writing about things you don't understand unless you are adding a direct quotation (don't edit quotations if you don't understand them). Copying from a source without understanding the material fundamentally means not having proper context for your sourced material and is not good sourcing practice IMO. There is no reason to attempt to expansively list anything on Wikipedia despite the temptation to include everything, having definitions and explanations for the two gender identities you added then removed can wait until a suitably motivated and knowledgeable editor wants to add it or you can learn the material yourself if you want :) Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 07:07, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Living With AIDS film

Hello, I recently created a draft for the 1987 film Living With AIDS. It is an early film documenting the life and death of a young AIDS patient. Any help with the article would be appreciated. Thank you, Thriley (talk) 15:32, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I expanded it Thriley and think it's probably a notable film especially since it earned the director an Emmy. Star Mississippi 17:28, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! Thriley (talk) 21:18, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Sylvia Rivera activism section begins by relying too heavily on a single article

The first few paragraphs of the activism section of Sylvia Rivera's article sources almost entirely to a single article, one which puts her in a negative light. Perhaps it should remain a part of her article (unless it is shown to be untrue) but there should probably also be more alternate, neutral, and positive sources for information surrounding her life and activism. True love and understanding (talk • contribs) 12:58, 9 July, 2021 (UTC)

Political activity of the Catholic Church on LGBT issues

Is it appropriate for Political activity of the Catholic Church on LGBT issues to contain lengthy excerpts from sources affiliated with and/or published by the Catholic Church, with the specific aim of promoting the Church and its views, which claim that the Church opposes anti-LGBT discrimination and supports LGBT rights? Please join us on the article's talk page. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:33, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Bugchasing peer review

For those interested, the article bugchasing - a practice of some (a very small number of) gay men actively seeking out HIV infection -- has an open peer review. Given the sensitivity of the subject, some attention from those in this project may be appropriate. The goal is to nominate it to be a featured article. Urve (talk) 09:13, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Madonna as a gay icon

Members may wish to comment.4meter4 (talk) 12:46, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

COVID-19's impact on the LGBT community

New category: Category:Impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on the LGBT community. Feel free to help populate! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:19, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Ideological contributions to articles on sex and gender

A small number of editors are making radical changes to a range of articles, including articles within the scope of this project, aligned with views that presuppose that gamete size is the sole determinant of sex. Some of these changes have been made to articles on intersex, including that page. Sex determination is far more complex in cases of intersex. Changes relevant to this project have been made to intersex, disorders of sex development, 5α-Reductase deficiency‎, true hermaphroditism, hermaphrodite, gynandromorphism, sex, sex and gender distinction, sex differences in humans, and also non-binary gender and queer. The modus operandi appears to impose a narrow view of sex determination as uncontested and incontestable, remove all content on social, cultural or human rights aspects from articles where they think a narrow biological view is the only possible view, and add material on gender and LGBT issues to make them as contestable and even ridiculous as possible (such as an attempt to add 'xenogender' to non-binary gender).

These changes are associated with narrow views about medicine and the diverse global settings where people with relevant traits - and Wikipedia readers - live. For example, recent changes to 5α-Reductase deficiency‎ have been justified on the talk page by an assertion that all infants go through sex chromosome testing that can identify whether or not that infant has the trait. That editor has just proposed a RfC on this little-watched talk page.

I would very much appreciate a wider range of eyes on these articles. Thank you. Trankuility (talk) 01:02, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

I've watched all those articles and this WikiProject for a long time, and I haven't seen that radical of changes, just a gradual improvement with strong academic sources in some of them - certainly not large removals. My memory is not perfect, though, and any specifics can be discussed at the articles. Some of those articles say little or nothing about humans, being focused on other parts of the tree of life. Regarding the 5 alpha reductase deficiency article, I asked the initiating editor to supply WP:MEDRS sources on the talk page; that should be an easy answer to that question at least if he follows through. Regarding xenogenders, though we did end up not including it, the editor who brought it up had doubts about the matter, while another editor, who in no way could be considered a transphobe, spoke in favor of including it on Wikipedia. See Talk:Non-binary gender#About the xenogender. That it was brought here to ask about seems like a sign of good faith. Crossroads ^-talk- 05:28, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Tranquility the reason I thought about including xenogender was because I thought the source was reliable but other editors said it probably wasn’t. So I just removed it and agreed with other editors for it's removal.

Don’t assume editors are including things into articles as a way to make a certain identity seem ridiculous.CycoMa (talk) 06:26, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Need for formal guidelines surround q-word

As far as I can tell, this subject has had some previous discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies/Noticeboard/Archive 1#LGBT, queer and definition, as well as briefly/in passing at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies/Archive 68#LGBT or LGBT+ and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies/Archive 31#Project guidance on 'homosexual'. There seems to be a consensus that “queer” is a word many LGBT people are uncomfortable with. We know “queer” is not a neutral word so I think we need to make some formal additions to the style guide to reflect this.

There are some people (this is especially problematic for historical lesbian and gay men) whose articles refer to them as "queer" despite the fact that they never used this label themselves and almost certainly would have been called this term in a derogatory manner. (For example, I recently changed Sherry McKibben to remove the q-word. My edit was reverted due by another editor who claimed that the existence of WP:QUEER as a redirect proved that “queer” is not a slur and is thus appropriate. This interaction sparked my desire for such guidelines.)

Additionally, the word “queer” is often used as a synonym for gay or homosexual. Instead of using precise/specific language, many editors seem to opt for the word “queer”. For example, the article on Rachel Sennott uses the word “queer” to describe two films about young women in homosexual relationships. Though one film is explicitly about a bisexual young woman and the other (as best I can tell) is not explicit about the character’s sexuality outside of her attraction to women, it seems inappropriate to use what many still consider a slur to denote the unifying feature when the unifying feature is actually female homosexual desire. (As a lesbian, I feel much more comfortable with the word homosexual than I do with the word queer.) Also Leslie Cheung, despite the cited source explicitly saying that he was important because he played gay characters in a conservative film industry, uses the word “queer” to describe his characters.

(See also: Blake Lee’s page describes ‘’The Christmas Setup’’ as being centred around a queer love story, but the film has a gay couple at its centre. Gay and queer are not synonyms.)

There also may be an issue with using “queer” to describe people who have spoken publicly about their desire not to use labels (see Ben Lewis#Personal Life’s reference to Tessa Thompson and compare with [1] and [2], the latter of which is the source for the article). I have not noticed other examples, but I also have not been looking for them and am not very knowledgeable about which notable people do and don’t use labels for their sexuality and/or gender identity.

Note that these are only some examples of the types of problems that I have noticed, but not a conclusive list.

I propose implementing a formal guideline encouraging editors not to use the word "queer" in describing someone unless they are directly quoting a source, it is a word that the article's subject has used to describe themselves, or the word is called for in a commonly accepted phrase or term such as “queer theory”. The guidelines should also indicate that “queer” should be used intentionally and avoid describing things as “queer” when they have a more explicit/accurate connection that could better be describer by another, less controversial term (ie. gay). Samsmachado (talk) 20:12, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree. After you get comments here, you will want to take this to an MOS or Village Pump page where it gets wider input; that's the only way for something to get added to a guideline. I see no good reason to call someone "queer" when more specific labels almost always exist, and something like LGBT can be used as another option. It looks grating. Crossroads ^-talk- 00:45, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

While I agree with the course of action Crossroads recommends, I also dispute the premise, i.e., that gay is less controversial a term than queer. The vibe I get from the OP is of a person who is perfectly comfortable assimilating more marginal and exposed homosexualities and-socialities under a "gay" umbrella, regardless of the feelings of those affected, but who get all up in arms the moment something they don't identify with is proposed as the "umbrella" identity, q.v. queer. Where we can (i.e. where the results are not absurd), we should simply allow people the identities they consciously hold and express for themselves, IMO. Newimpartial (talk) 00:52, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

OP here. Just wanted to add a clarification in light of the above comment. I think Newimpartial's point is entirely valid. I'm not proposing using gay as an umbrella term for anything other than homosexual (ie. exclusively same-sex attracted). My proposal would involve recommending LGBT or LGBTQ+ (or some such umbrella term that doesn't directly rely on a word that has widely been and continues to be used as a slur) as a replacement for "queer" in some cases. My reason for proposing this is largely due to my own discomfort with being labelled "queer" and the shared discomfort I see amongst many members of the LGBTQ+ community with this label (especially the LGB community). Homosexuality is not "queer" in the sense of strange or unusual and it is frustrating to have this label continually forced on you. Using "gay" to describe someone who isn't exclusively same-sex attracted has similar problems in terms of lacking specificity/explicitly to using "queer". I think part of the discussion necessary within my proposal (though I wasn't explicit about this) would be to agree on an acronym (LGBT, LGBT+, LGBTQ, etc.) that can be used as a more neutral/less controversial descriptor. Samsmachado (talk) 01:03, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Queer and LGBT are often not precisely synonymous, and I would oppose any guideline that attempts to broadly censor use of the former from Wikipedia based on personal dislike. We have applicable policies, most notably WP:BLP, that requires solid sourcing for any claim about living people, which would include only referring to a living person's sexuality by their own self descriptors. After that, we should be broadly reflective of sources, which means using queer when they do, or other terms as appropriate. Starting from the position that queer is a slur and needs to be excised wherever possible is not a neutral approach. For example, when sources talk about queer themes in film, as they do in a couple of the articles mentioned above, it is inappropriate for us to apply a general policy of sanitizing that to the more anodyne LGBT.--Trystan (talk) 14:45, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I support Samsmachado's proposal. It's not appropriate to editorialize the word "queer" into articles where the subjects or sources do not use it (or explicitly use other words). –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:21, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

But that's not what is proposed. Under the proposed guidelines, we would be required to edit out the word queer, except under certain conditions, in spite of the term's widespread use in the sources. For example, Samsmachado objects to calling The Christmas Setup "Lifetime's first Christmas movie centered around a queer love story" in the article on star Blake Lee. There are six reviews of that movie listed as references in its article, all from major magazines and news sites (CBC, O Magazine, Washington Post, etc.). All of those reviews use queer in some fashion, including a quote by Lee "...that this will just be the beginning of representation for all queer people." Under the proposed guidelines, any summary of that body of sources would need to censor queer outside of direct quotes. Rather than generally reflecting the language of the sources, we would be required to replace queer with "less controversial" alternatives to avoid causing offence.--Trystan (talk) 23:17, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree largely with those above. My perspective is this: In the absence of sources using the word queer, I think LGBT (or another acronym) is the most appropriate, as the terms queer and LGBT are not synonymous in modern academic writing. "Queer perspectives on film X" is a fine thing, or describing a film as "a queer romance" - but only insofar as those specific descriptors are used in relation to the subject. If they're not, reverting to the more generic LGBT seems acceptable. Some wider input would be welcome, though the project also has some guidance where we could begin drafting a proposal for wider consideration. Urve (talk) 16:41, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, I don't have any concern about the term being interpreted as a slur. I think that's increasingly rare. My concern is mostly based on the academic use of the word queer as in eg queer vs lgbt studies, where precision matters. Urve (talk) 16:45, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

• I'm a little surprised to hear that the word is being used as a catch-all like this. IRL, I only ever hear it used as a mild pejorative (more often by LGBT people, in a similar manner to the N word but with lesser severity), or as part of a self-description, where it's suffixed to another word, e.g. "genderqueer", "romancequeer" or "sexqueer". I couldn't tell you what the latter two terms mean exactly, mind, I can only attest to hearing them. In light of this use and the reactions I'm seeing here, I support this proposal. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:38, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

• Queer hasn't been a general pejorative for a long time. Anyone who still uses it like that is, frankly, dumb, and you're probably misinterpreting it. Now, I also have no idea what those latter terms are, but if they are emerging identities (new names, not new identities) then it will probably get back to this project soon enough. Kingsif (talk) 20:44, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

  I'm not misinterpreting it, I'm completely sure, because I've had conversations about exactly this after opining several years ago that queer hadn't been a pejorative in many years and being approached about it by multiple LGBT people to correct me. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:59, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

• There is one very simple answer to this, the thing we've been doing the whole time: use it as in sources. And that's all that needs to be said. Kingsif (talk) 20:44, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
• Agree with Trystan and Kingsif. I don’t see a benefit of preferring or dis-preferring “queer” as a policy. In most cases, we should use the terms in the reliable sources for that topic. For BLPs, perhaps there’s a case for making a guideline around self-identification, similar to WP:LGBTCAT or MOS:GENDERID. POLITANVM ^talk 23:22, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Kingsif makes a valid point as does Politanvm. It should be used as it is used in sources. That's not that hard to do and I'm not sure why it shouldn't be used. In fact, a lot of reviewers (who are often part of the LGBTQ community themselves) use "queer" rather than LGBTQ (or the like) from what I have observed in recent years, so that should also be kept in mind as well. Historyday01 (talk) 02:31, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

• The elephant in the room here is that most older people associate "queer" with a slur and most younger people associate "queer" with a self-identification, as that is how the terms are most commonly used among different generations. Other variance comes from geographic location, community and personal experience. I'd like to hear what older people think the connotations of the initialism "LGBTQ" are—does that still sound like a slur, because the "Q" stands for queer? You can't always substitute "queer" with "LGBT", in cases where someone's gender or sexuality is not fully clear. But if someone uses a clear descriptor of themselves, whether "queer" or "transgender woman", then we should use the most specific descriptor they give and not anything more specific. The case of being specific but not misleading when describing a romance between two women ("lesbian fiction" vs "queer fiction") is difficult, but we should be mindful that many bisexuals would object to people using the word "lesbian" to describe them or their relationships (like the phrase "lesbian marriage"). See also bisexual erasure. — Bilorv (talk) 12:30, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
• FWIW, I see "gay" and "queer" used in both ways, for example "This is a queer couple" on a magazine cover showing a bisexual woman and bisexual man explaining the complexities of identity. But if either word is shouted in anger down the street at someone, then it's definitely a hateful slur. I wouldn't shy away from using "queer" in encyclopedic contexts because it might be interpreted as a slur, and editors above are right that it's often used as an identity by people who don't way to label themselves "gay" or "bisexual" or as a catch-all term for lots of LGBT+ stuff. If the words have any negative connotation these days, it's mostly because either the speaker or audience attach a negative connotation to homosexuality itself, or non-binary gender or whatever the subtext is. All of that said, in an encyclopedia it's nice to use precise terms. If we're talking about a couple with two women who might be bisexual or lesbian, "same-sex" is perfectly good and more precise than "queer". I do agree that when labelling people, we should use the language they use to talk about themselves. If someone identifies as "straight but curious" labelling them as "gay" or "bisexual" is not quite right, but it's fine to be descriptive and talk about their "same-sex lovers" or "men and women lovers" or whatever. By that logic, we'd only talk about specific people being "queer" if that's what they call themselves, even if they fall under the controversial queer heterosexuality. In general LGBT+ articles, I'd follow the sources, feeling free to use "queer" if sources use that term, and "LGBT" and variations by default, for clarity. -- Beland (talk) 02:29, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Bilorv already mentioned this, but there is no question whatever that this is largely (but not exclusively) a generational issue. Reappropriation doesn't happen with the same speed (if at all) among people with different life experience, and younger generations benefit from the sacrifices of those that came before, and have nothing to reappropriate because they didn't experience the pain. Comments like "Queer hasn't been a general pejorative for a long time. Anyone who still uses it like that is, frankly, dumb, and you're probably misinterpreting it" are ignorant of history, and are being gratuitously hurtful, even if not intentionally. What counts as a long time for you, might seem like yesterday for someone else: Wally Funk just blasted into space on Blue Origin; she was 30 when Stonewall happened, and she's a rookie astronaut today. Queen Elizabeth is still ruling the United Kingdom; she was a teenager when Nazi Germany invaded Poland, kicking off World War II. History didn't start the day we were born, although as humans, we all have that conceit to a certain extent; hopefully as we grow older, we grow wiser. Having said that, I'm not sure if we need guidance for specific words; this is not the only word like that, one could look at tranny, which followed a very similar trajectory among members of another LGBT group and also have a generational divide in attitudes toward it. In contrast, words like she-male remain largely the same, or even became worse than they were at the outset, being associated now almost entirely with pornography, which was not the case at the outset. Anybody using that word around here now about a fellow editor (or the subject of an article) would suffer such universal opprobrium that a specific guideline against it hardly seems necessary. Note also, that we have N-word (disambiguation), but no MOS:N-word. Mathglot (talk) 04:57, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I would say the same things as Trystan: use sources; we have guidelines like WP:BLP which should prevent the a label being applied to a specific BLP who doesn't use it, whereas there's no valid reason to avoid queer (and especially, to avoid queer but not e.g. gay) in reference to e.g. general population statistics or fictional couples, etc., where queer is the term RS use. Indeed, given that queer and LGBT are not synonymous in many cases, to say "LGBT" (or something else) where sources say "queer" would be unacceptable under WP:V. (People who act like it is pressing to not use queer, but blithely accept gay—which has long been such a slur that generations have grown up with anything lame being called gay—reveal a bias which impedes writing a neutral encyclopedia. Gay has been a common slur more recently than queer was a common slur, so if anyone wants to start rewriting articles to avoid neutral uses of words which can also be slurs, start with one one that's more commonly and recently a slur...) -sche (talk) 19:09, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Murder of Thomas and Jackie Hawks

Skylar Deleon, one of the murderers, was born male, but tried - after the crime and in jail - to cut off his penis because he wanted to be a woman. Someone changed the initial "he"s to "she"s throughout the article, before and after the murders, with Deleon's later self-surgery only mentioned well into the article, so the casual reader would assume that Deleon was in a lesbian marriage with his/her co-killer wife and joined the Marine Corps as a woman. I would like to change it back, unless there are objections. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:07, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think changing it is appropriate under our guidance on pronoun use, which favors the most recent self-identification. Urve (talk) 05:24, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Definitions of Trans woman and Trans man

• Talk:Trans man#‎This definition is incorrect for intersex man.
• Talk:Trans woman#This definition is incorrect for intersex woman.

Per Talk:Trans woman/Archive 4#RfC on introduction, definition of trans woman in this article was changed to "A trans woman is a woman who was assigned male at birth.". However this definition is not adequate for intersex woman. Categorizing Erik Schinegger as trans man and Lady Colin Campbell as trans woman would be problematic.

Lady Colin Campbell is not trans woman unless she identify as trans woman. Erik Schinegger is not trans man unless he identify as trans man. We should not categorize David Reimer as trans man.

Furthermore, this definition may not be neutral for trans person without transitioning. --Sharouser (talk) 13:10, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

It would be original research and a WP:BLP violation for us to label people as trans based on our interpretation and application of the definition. That said, I don't agree that the definition is inadequate or problematic as it applies (or doesn't apply) to the examples your raise. The definition is generally reflective of reliable sources, so I don't know on what basis we would change it even if we concluded it was problematic.--Trystan (talk) 16:08, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Freddie Stewart

I wanted to bring Freddie Stewart (actor) to this project's attention, due to an issue that I'm not equipped to fix.

Within the past week, somebody added content to the article indicating that Stewart "sexually identified as trans" on the basis of this source, a photograph in a university archive whose description includes the phrase "Hill became one of the first transvestites to attend parties at the Double Header in Pioneer Square, the oldest gay bar in Seattle." But, of course, "transvestite" does not necessarily equal transgender per se — while it's certainly true that some "transvestites" or drag queens do explore cross-dressing as a first step toward coming out as transgender, it does not automatically follow that all "transvestites" or drag queens are automatically transgender. And, in addition, the article was added to Category:Transgender and transsexual male actors, Category:LGBT actors, Category:LGBT culture in New York City, Category:LGBT people from New York (state), Category:Lists of LGBT-related people and Category:Lists of people from New York City, not all of which are appropriate ("lists of" categories are for pages that are lists, not for adding articles about people to lists, and a person doesn't belong directly in "LGBT actors" at all if he or she is also in any of the "[Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual/Transgender/Queer] actors" subcategories already) and none of which are adequately supported by what the source actually says — and the metadata on an archival photograph isn't even a great source in the first place.

But properly sourcing whether Freddie Stewart was really gay or transgender is beyond my ken, since it would likely require deep diving into American resources (such as archived American newspaper coverage) that I don't have access to — so I wanted to ask if somebody with better access to such resources can look into this to see whether Stewart's sexual orientation and/or gender identity are properly sourceable or not. Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 13:16, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

The description in question is not about Stewart, but about Francis Hill, who from the archival description appears to just be the owner of the photograph.--Trystan (talk) 01:33, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Ongoing discussion

There's a discussion at Talk:List_of_cross-dressing_characters_in_animated_series#RFC_what_constitutes_as_crossdressing. Please feel free to weigh in on the conversation. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 15:07, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Discussion about non-binary gender categories

I've started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality#How to organize non-binary gender categories. Please participate there if you have an opinion. Nosferattus (talk) 16:42, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Non-binary and female-focused articles

[3] [4]

Is this allowed? If we say "adults", etc., it's incorrect because it reports incorrect epidemiology. The information is about women, but "adults", etc. is broader. Nowearskirts (talk) 06:09, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

No, it absolutely is not, and they have been reverted. Crossroads ^-talk- 06:40, 31 July 2021 (UTC)