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:As a [[Wikipedia:Featured article criteria|"featured article"]] this is supposed to be "...considered to be some of the best articles Wikipedia has to offer." There has been some referencing issues and a tag from February 2017 (See "References" above) that has been unresolved concerning unsourced sections. To even be considered for [[Wikipedia:Content assessment/B-Class criteria|B-Class]] referencing cannot be an issue.
:As a [[Wikipedia:Featured article criteria|"featured article"]] this is supposed to be "...considered to be some of the best articles Wikipedia has to offer." There has been some referencing issues and a tag from February 2017 (See "References" above) that has been unresolved concerning unsourced sections. To even be considered for [[Wikipedia:Content assessment/B-Class criteria|B-Class]] referencing cannot be an issue.
:A solution, short of finding sources or a demotion, is to remove the material that creates the issue. I have hidden the unsourced section and removed the tag. If someone wishes inclusion there needs to be sourcing. [[User:Otr500|Otr500]] ([[User talk:Otr500|talk]]) 08:50, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
:A solution, short of finding sources or a demotion, is to remove the material that creates the issue. I have hidden the unsourced section and removed the tag. If someone wishes inclusion there needs to be sourcing. [[User:Otr500|Otr500]] ([[User talk:Otr500|talk]]) 08:50, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

== [[WP:URFA/2020|URFA/2020]] review and concerns ==

I reviewed this article for [[WP:URFA/2020]] and I am concerned that the article no longer meets the [[WP:FA?|featured article criteria]]. Some of my concerns are outlined below:

*The "Concept and construction" section is quite long. Can this be split into two sections and summarised/trimmed?
*Multiple paragraphs do not end with an inline citation. While this might not have been necessary in 2007 during the article's FAR, my experience with recent FACs has caused me to think that this standard has risen. An inline citation at the end of the paragraph makes it clear to the reader what is verifying the last sentence's information.
*The ""Silver Streak" film" does not contain any inline citations.
*The "Legacy" section contains one-sentence paragraphs. Can this section be reformatted to have paragraphs instead?

Is anyone interested in addressing these concerns? I am pinging {{u|Slambo}} as they were the article's FAC nominator and they are still actively editing. [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 18:23, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:23, 23 March 2022

Featured articlePioneer Zephyr is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 23, 2005.
Did You Know Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 1, 2005Featured article candidatePromoted
March 23, 2005Today's featured articleMain Page
July 14, 2007Featured article reviewKept
Did You Know A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on February 28, 2005.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that during the "dawn-to-dusk" publicity run for the CB&Q's Pioneer Zephyr on May 26 1934, the train reached a top speed of 112.5 mph (181 kph)?
Current status: Featured article

Revenue service photos

The two photos that are shown of Zephyrs in revenue service are more likely of the Mark Twain Zephyr than the Pioneer Zephyr since they show the train arriving at locations in Illinois (which were not on the Pioneer Zephyr's revenue route). I have been able to find only one photo of the Pioneer Zephyr in revenue service online ([1]), and the page I found it on seems to indicate that it's a royalty-free image, but I haven't found a definitive answer on whether I can use it in this article or not. A copy without the watermarks is here. slambo 16:15, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)

Some of the reference material that I was looking at last night says that the Pioneer Zephyr route changed over time, so that assumption may not be entirely correct. Further research is needed here. Slambo (Speak) 15:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nice to haves

  • A simple stick-map of the dash route on a stick-map outline of the US would really punch up that section. If one doesn't exist I might be able to do it if someone can confirm if today's tracks run the same route as then. Or, even better, if there's a messy one someone can provide I can clean it up (would the route shown on the PDF on the amtrak.com Routes page be a close enuf approximation?).
  • Also in that section, an approximation of the distance of the dash would be nice, along with some idea of typical or average rail speeds of the time. I'd re-state the average speed of the dash here, too.
  • If the front of the train was destroyed in the 1939 crash, I assume there was some human cost as well; is there any info on how many people were killed or injured?
  • Was/is stainless steel also not as recyclable as regular steel and iron, which were also recycled during WWII?

I think that's it. Niteowlneils 03:32, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Added the length of the dash, 1,015 miles. I don't know how this tidbit got overlooked. Anyway, on the dash's route map, I can put something together too, much like I did for Image:DME and ICE route map.JPG, I just haven't found a good reference for the CBQ's route in 1934; I know a couple of the cities the railroad connected to, but I'd like to get some more definite facts before I start on that. My guess is that from Denver, it traveled to Lincoln, Omaha, Kansas City, Galesburg and then on to Chicago, but I'd like to be sure before I state it as a fact. I've found a photo of the "Dawn-To-Dusk Club" (the passengers on the dash) after their arrival in Chicago, I'm just waiting for permission to use it here.
I'm not sure about the injury toll for the accident that was mentioned, the Johnston, et. al., book only mentions "with tragic consequences" and that the cab was destroyed. I'll see if I can find any more details.
Stainless steel was not as easily recyclable as other steels at the time, probably for the same reasons that a new welding technique needed to be developed before it could find extensive use as a carbody material. I forget which of the references I saw that note in, but it was definitely one that is listed in the article. slambo 04:34, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
I just got an email back from the repository that hosts the photo I mentioned above. Unfortunately, I would not be able to use it for the article without submitting a use fee. Oh well. Time to send of an info request letter to the NMRA library to see if I can get the route to build a map from. slambo 16:32, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
For a route map, would WP:TRAIL help you do this ? Pickle 18:55, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that could be used to make a schematic of the route, but for this article, I'd think that lines drawn on a US map, like I was able to create for the Scott Special article, would be more appropriate. Slambo (Speak) 19:51, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shotwelding/spotwelding?

The technique described in the article as 'shotwelding' is known as 'spot welding' today. Is there a reason for refering to it as shotwelding?--FeloniousMonk 06:41, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

read the patent. It is not plain old spotwelding, but a significant refinement thereof. Fawcett5 13:01, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Fawcett5 is right. The patent calls it shotwelding, so that's the terminology used here. slambo 13:43, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Trainset?

To me this term is ambiguous and implies that this train is in fact a model railroad train. Maybe Trainset is the correct professional term, but for the benefeit of people who are trying to learn something new, perhaps this added confusion could be eliminated. (unsigned comment from 209.222.223.58)

As a model railroader of 20+ years with many professional railroad acquaintances, "trainset" to me means a group of railroad cars that are permanently or semipermanently coupled to form a single unit for operations; while "train set" (note that there is a space in this one) is a collection of train equipment, either prototype or model, but more often associated with models. I haven't seen a printed resource to back this up, or to state it to the contrary. I'm going with how the term is used in the industry. I will add a note in the article to explain the term and its meaning in the industry. slambo 22:55, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Italics

The italicized "s" in the possessive form of Zephyr is incorrect. I only know of two ways of correcting this, both with HTML, but apparently that is frowned upon. Wayward 07:02, May 7, 2005 (UTC)

I took a quick look through my copy of the MLA Style Manual (ISBN 0-87352-699-6) on this one. I didn't see anything either way for possessives of italicized names. Sec. 3.4.7.e on possessives simply states "To form the possessive of any singular proper noun, add an apostrophe and an s." We could take this to imply that the "'s" should not be italicized, but that's something that I would expect the MLA to spell out specifically. Since it doesn't say there about italics, I'm more inclined to leave it as it is. As to de-italicizing the possessive here, it shouldn't be that difficult: ''Zephyr'''s produces Zephyr's. slambo 16:47, May 7, 2005 (UTC)
Chicago Manual of Style, 14th ed., p. 201, 6.29: "When a proper name is in italic type, its possessive ending is preferably set in roman". The time abbreviation in the article is also incorrect. There should be a space between the numerical time and the abbreviation, and periods between the letters of the abbreviation: 7:04 a.m. and 8:09 p.m. I corrected this once, but… Wayward 03:29, May 8, 2005 (UTC)
Okeydokey. I'll defer since Chicago specifically mentions it and MLA doesn't. Personally, I have no preference on this issue, I was just going with what I had at hand. slambo 15:37, May 8, 2005 (UTC)
Minor addition: When time is abbreviated with small capitals, the periods are unnecessary. Wayward 20:37, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
I think I've got them all updated as noted. slambo 15:44, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
There is a wiki problem with your last edit, causing unintended bold and italic text. Wayward 18:37, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
Doh! Should have seen that coming. I've wrapped apostrophes in nowiki tags so they render properly now. slambo 20:57, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

Just a historian's note here, but all GM locomotives built prior to 1941 were built by the Electro-Motive Corporation (EMC). The Electro-Motive Division (EMD) was formed on January 1, 1941 with the merger of the Winton Engine Company with EMC.

Cab controls

Does the Zephyr feature any deadmans' of any kind? Myrtone@Pioneer Zephyr.com.au


To answer the question posed in the photo caption; Yes, there is a deadman's pedal partially visible in this photo. While the pedal itself is obscured behind the seat's lower cushion, the gray object just above the "right front" corner of the seat is recognizable to me as the mechanism of such a pedal. 20:38, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for all the edits

I've just made a series of edits to the article following a comment left on the {{Ref patent}} talk page. I thought it might be useful to see different ways in which the patent templates can be used to put different levels of information around an article. Each of my three edits works in a different way,

so please take a look and decide which one you think works best for this particular article, if any! GDallimore (Talk) 14:49, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Way cool, thanks for looking into this. I'll be reviewing the options and selecting one for consistency soon. Slambo (Speak) 15:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. It's interesting to see how people want to use these templates so that I can try to improve the accordingly. By the way, if you want a complete example of how adding patents into a bibliography section or patent section can work, take a look at Atomic line filter. Personally, I'm not sure I like the style, but it had to be done there because one editor didn't like the different styles between citing a book and citing a patent, whereas I was not willing to have inventors named as the "authors" of a patent, since they very rarely are. GDallimore (Talk) 16:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Engineer/driver

Yesterday I changed "driver" in a photo caption to "engineer"; this morning, GDallimore changed it back. Although I am very much an Anglophile, I do feel this is rather discourteous. I've been corrected several times when editing railroad - sorry, railway articles by British speakers who insist on saying things like "goods wagons" and "bogies" - but the Pioneer Zephyr was an entirely American invention and is unmistakably an American topic, and so I strongly believe American usage should prevail in this particular instance.

If I had done this on, say, the Flying Scotsman article, GDallimore would have been perfectly justified in correcting me; I hope all can see that the same courtesy should apply in reverse as well. This is not merely my personal preference: please see Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Strong_national_ties_to_a_topic.

I have, however, wikilinked the word "engineer" to the relevant article which should clarify the term for anyone who may be confused, which was GDallimore's stated concern. Textorus (talk) 16:14, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how following WP:BRD is discourteous - something which you have failed to do, I see. GDallimore (Talk) 23:12, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:TIES is about spelling variations. This is not a spelling variation, it is a different word. WP:COMMONALITY applies better to this situtation and suggests using the least potentially confusing word as I argued when reverting your change. Eg, alternative instead of alternate. GDallimore (Talk) 23:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Confusing to whom? I seriously doubt that any native English speakers, from any continent, would be truly confused about the meaning of either word in the context shown; but even if they were, the wikilink I inserted there takes them straight to an article which provides 5 different synonyms in American and Commonwealth usage in the very first sentence, which would immediately demystify their minds.
That is what wikilinks are for, no?
My use of the word engineer, moreover, is entirely consistent with the rest of the article about this American train. The article is full of Americanisms, both in spelling and in terms: e.g., railroad, railroad cars, freight trains, baggage car, trucks, grade crossings, even aluminum - not, please notice, railway, railway carriages, goods train, luggage van, bogies, level crossings, and aluminium. So I'm at a loss to understand either your thinking or your reaction to the change of one single word, which is very much in line with the rest of this article and with MOS guidelines. Textorus (talk) 14:20, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While I concur that the term engineer in an article about trains built in America and operated in America is a reasonable choice, as virtually all Americans would understand—and expect—the word engineer in this context, I suggest a compromise: According to Railroad engineer, the proper term used in America is locomotive engineer. Use that, and you've not only clarified the term, but you're being consistent with other parts of Wikipedia. (I also find it to be more self-explanatory than railroad engineer, which could imply that one engineers railways.) As for the etymology, I suspect it goes back to the time when the operator of a locomotive required a fair amount of engineering skill to keep the beast in operation smoothly and safely, and/or a less Latinate interpretation of engineer as "one who does things to or with engines," as compared to the sense derived from ingeniā "to design, devise." (Ref. [2]) // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 19:38, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
KISS. 'Engineer' and 'Driver' imply different skill sets, and it strikes me that the word engineer is 'over-engineered' (ie ambiguous) in this context. The solution applied, using a link to dab it, is yet another redundant move as a link there doesn't really add value. I think Hans' proposal below is a creative and 'commonal' way of solving the problem. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 01:37, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure the reference to the person who, um, engines? engineers??? the train is really necessary. This person is not visible in the photo, and the simplest way out would be to rewrite the caption to avoid the issue. E.g.: "Pioneer Zephyr cab with controls". This way nobody will be confused. Perhaps someone finds an even better formulation? Hans Adler 20:24, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's an even better idea! I like that. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 20:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. FWIW, "railroad engineer" would be worse, not better, to me (a Brit): that would not be anyone on board, but someone involved in planning, construction and maintenance of the railway system. Similarly, "locomotive engineer" would merely narrow it to vehicles rather than infrastructure, and still not mean anyone on board. (And I agree that wikilinking is not a solution; apart from anything else, my expectations of these terms is sufficiently strong to prevent my using such a wikilink and discovering my error.) Yes, recasting to avoid the issue is a good solution here. PL290 (talk) 10:21, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This solution seems to avoid the key problem which I see coming up time and again and needs a solid answer. As PL290 says, the problem here is that in BrEng an engineer is someone who fixes things, not someone who drives things. The link does not help because people aren't going to look up a word they think they already know. The other examples of "confusing" US terminology are not actually confusing because there is no ambiguity or different in meaning for the sam word being used in different ways in different countries. An unambiguous word is clearly the best one to use. GDallimore (Talk) 12:41, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

land speed record

Intro says 115 mph; text of article says 130 mph. Jnmwiki (talk) 18:02, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dawn to Dusk Club photo

File:Pioneer Zephyr Dawn to Dusk Club 1936.JPG This photo was published by the Chicago Tribune as the first regular service Denver Zephyr made its run in 1936. There's a photo similar to the one in the article (also non-free) at the McCook, NE public library. Both are dated 1934, but in all three photos, the men are wearing the same suits and ties.

The "Tribune" photo looks to have originally been taken in 1934 and run with the copy seen on the photo's back. Contacting the Burlington Historical Society with questions brought no response. I'm proposing that the free use photo replace the present one of the "Dawn to Dusk Club" as it appears to have been taken on the same day. We hope (talk) 04:37, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My preference is to retain the long standing current image which, although smaller, is still a superior quality image. Centpacrr (talk) 10:10, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Talk about misleading hyperbole...

This article contained the ridiculous exaggeration, "Even if they did have the money to travel, the equipment that railroads were using to carry passengers had not changed much since the middle of the 19th century." I've removed it. There was a world of difference in size, speed, and safety between the early, slow-running, modest-sized steam locomotives and small, frail passenger cars of the mid-1800s and the massive, fast steam locomotives and long, heavily-built passenger cars of the early 1930s. --Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 19:56, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

I don't have time to work on this article right now, but we really can't have a featured article with entire unreferenced paragraphs. Mackensen (talk) 20:15, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Conflicting information

The section Early Zephyr trains says:

The six car sets 9904 and 9905 began service as the Denver Zephyr in May 1936 . . .

It is uncited.

The sources cited in Denver Zephyr#The first Denver Zephyrs state that the Advance Denver Zephyr of May 1936 were 9900 and 9903 (PZ and MTZ). Kablammo (talk) 19:23, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In reliance on those sources, I have edited the article to remove the uncited assertion quoted above. Kablammo (talk) 02:13, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Article issues

As a "featured article" this is supposed to be "...considered to be some of the best articles Wikipedia has to offer." There has been some referencing issues and a tag from February 2017 (See "References" above) that has been unresolved concerning unsourced sections. To even be considered for B-Class referencing cannot be an issue.
A solution, short of finding sources or a demotion, is to remove the material that creates the issue. I have hidden the unsourced section and removed the tag. If someone wishes inclusion there needs to be sourcing. Otr500 (talk) 08:50, 4 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

URFA/2020 review and concerns

I reviewed this article for WP:URFA/2020 and I am concerned that the article no longer meets the featured article criteria. Some of my concerns are outlined below:

  • The "Concept and construction" section is quite long. Can this be split into two sections and summarised/trimmed?
  • Multiple paragraphs do not end with an inline citation. While this might not have been necessary in 2007 during the article's FAR, my experience with recent FACs has caused me to think that this standard has risen. An inline citation at the end of the paragraph makes it clear to the reader what is verifying the last sentence's information.
  • The ""Silver Streak" film" does not contain any inline citations.
  • The "Legacy" section contains one-sentence paragraphs. Can this section be reformatted to have paragraphs instead?

Is anyone interested in addressing these concerns? I am pinging Slambo as they were the article's FAC nominator and they are still actively editing. Z1720 (talk) 18:23, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]