Talk:Timothée Chalamet

Picture Update

The current picture of Timothée is quite old as it’s from 5 years ago, it could do with an update! Perhaps his 2022 Oscar’s look? 2A02:C7F:C8D:C100:BCBF:E1B8:8EB1:AD21 (talk) 22:16, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

If there is a freely available recent image that does not violate copyright laws then we could use that. If not, we will have to continue using a semi-old photo. Trillfendi (talk) 18:49, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 June 2022

There is a small error at the beginning, timothée chalamé has French and American nationality, it would be wise to mark "is an Franco-American Actor" instead of just "is an American actor" 2A01:E0A:35A:B860:904F:F79B:2A2A:9986 (talk) 22:26, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: This is actually a controversial edit, so you'll need to discuss first with other editors. Please open a new section here and start a discussion. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:39, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Franco-American

Good evening. I recently saw an error in Timothée Chalamet's biography and it needs to be corrected. On all Timothée Chalamet's pages in other countries, he is marked as a Franco-American actor, because although he is American by birth, according to the French national register he is French, and therefore benefits from all the advantages of a French citizen. Trying to calculate in % his rate of French is insane and should not be done. He has dual nationality, so he is Franco-American according to these statements, in several French interviews he has given. You take away part of his life and his personality, this is French-Bashing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hatrant (talk • contribs) 19:05, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi Hatrant (talk · contribs)! Nobody here is deliberately 'French-bashing'. We have certain very strict rules when it comes to articles about living people. In essence, we need a reliable source to show that Mr Chalamet is, or identifies as, a French citizen. We also need to be able to check that source. If you could provide us with a link or two, for instance to an official French register, or to an article in a quality newspaper (not a blog), which clearly says he is Franco-American, we can help you update the article immediately. But we can't do anything without you providing those links – after all, someone could turn up here and say that he is Chinese-American and we're China-bashing for not including that in the article and we'd seek the same from them: proof. Thanks. — TREY MATURIN has spoken 19:14, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

I understand Trey_Maturin (talk · contribs), in this official text law on the french gouvernment site it said "Les enfants nés d’au moins un parent français et ceux qui bénéficient du double droit du sol se voient attribuer la nationalité française à la naissance" translation (you can do it by yourself if you don't trust me): Children born to at least one French parent and those who benefit from double ground rights are granted French nationality at birth.

(https://www.immigration.interieur.gouv.fr/fr/Integration-et-Acces-a-la-nationalite/La-nationalite-francaise/Les-conditions-et-modalites-de-l-acquisition-de-la-nationalite-francaise)

He also have a French Passport and you CAN'T have it if you haven't the french nationnality: https://twitter.com/clubchalamet/status/1078050354921533440

Source that proof you have to have the french citizen to have a french passport:

https://www.expatica.com/fr/moving/visas/french-passport-1528306/#:~:text=Passport%20eligibility&text=In%20order%20to%20get%20French,%2C%20culture%2C%20and%20citizenship%20responsibilities.

https://passeport.pre-demande.fr/etranger/#:~:text=il%20faut%20%C3%AAtre%20n%C3%A9%20dans,ou%20d'un%20service%20consulaire.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F34478/1_0_0_2?idFicheParent=N360#1_0_0_2

In theses hight quality french media (BFMTV and Le Monde) and Vogue they clairly say that he's Franco-american: https://www.bfmtv.com/people/cinema/qui-est-timothee-chalamet-la-nouvelle-coqueluche-franco-americaine-d-hollywood_AV-201802280017.html

https://www.lemonde.fr/cinema/article/2018/01/17/harcelement-sexuel-l-acteur-timothee-chalamet-fait-don-du-salaire-qu-il-a-percu-pour-le-dernier-woody-allen_5242738_3476.html

https://www.vogue.fr/vogue-hommes-en/article/story12-fun-facts-about-timothee-chalamet2403 Hatrant (talk) 19:46, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Le Monde and BFM are reliable sources for our purposes here. (The information about French citizenship and passport requirements are not something we can use as they’re not about Mr Chalamet specifically — that’s just how our rules work, sorry!) But yes, the two I mentioned will do. What we do next is put them into the article using our referencing system: {{cite web}}. This can be daunting for a newcomer, so if you’re not confident in using it and can wait until I’m back at my computer tomorrow afternoon (UTC), I’ll do it for you (I’m on my phone right now and it’s a real pain to do it this way!). Or someone else here might do it in the meantime. If you’d like to practice for yourself, you can use your sandbox as a place to try out new things. This page - Help:Referencing for beginners - will guide you through it. Otherwise, as I say, I’ll be back online in about 16 hours. — TREY MATURIN has spoken 20:55, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

There is also an interview with him in French where they talk about it, but unfortunately there are only automatic subtitles which I do not recommend (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOAjV22YUq8)

I'm going to train in my sandbox but I prefer to wait for you to make the modification, I don't want to do things wrong ^^'

So thanks to this we can write "is a Franco-American actor" instead of "is an American actor" in the first wiki line? Hatrant (talk) 21:05, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree for "american and french actor". Ledess31 (talk) 12:07, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Please how can we find a consensus if no one wants talk? :/ Hatrant (talk) 16:04, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

@Trillfendi: I think this edit by you is a very good compromise. @Hatrant: I hope you also agree? — TREY MATURIN has spoken 16:36, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Trey Maturin: - This has been discussed extensively already. We know that he has dual nationality, but there have several discussions in the archives which mention WP guidelines like MOS:CONTEXTBIO/WP:ETHNICITY as to why we should avoid listing his dual citizenship. Many notable BLPs mention the subjects having dual citizenship, but we do not mention them because for many, they were born, raised, reside and are most notable in the United States. Some archives: here and here. Ultimately, it has been a very disruptive topic but Chalament was born in the United States, resides there primarily (AFAIK) and is most notable there. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 17:16, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Clear Looking Glass: Just to be clear, I have no skin in this game – I'm only vaguely aware of who Mr Chalamet is, so I'm not coming to this discussion with a point to push. I am, however, looking for a compromise that will see the article readable and accurate, as well as not being such a (strange, IMHO) hot-button issue for both American and French people (I'm neither). I think Trillfendi has hit on a very good compromise that fulfils all of these aims and also draws some of the heat out of the subject. There's more we can do by talking calmly, so let's carry on doing that. I'd be interested to know why "an American and French" actor isn't acceptable to you as a description, as sources suggest he speaks fluent French and he has a French name, along with his French ancestry and, it appears (sources are less clear on this) citizenship. I admit I may be missing something in this discussion, so feel free to enlighten me! :-) — TREY MATURIN has spoken 17:31, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Thinking of further compromises, and not losing the two good sources the new editor found, would "... an American actor of French ancestry" work for you, CLG? That would seem to cover both bases in what, as you say, has been an intractable problem that some people have found disruptive. It would also seem to cover the obvious question that our readers might have: why is an American actor using a French name? I'm sure there's a wording here that we can hammer out together! — TREY MATURIN has spoken 17:39, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Why would that be included in the lead, when it can be covered in the biography? Is it that important, or does it have any bearing on his notability? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:44, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Trey Maturin: - WP:ETHNICITY states to not list other nationalities unless it is relevant to their notability. Although it is just a guideline, countless BLPs omit the dual or triple citizenships of them because they are not relevant to their notability. He was born in the United States, resides in New York/the United States,his career has been mostly American/Hollywood productions, and so on.

I disagree with it being mentioned in the lede sentence. Americans have all different ethnic origins but articles here rarely mention their ancestry. Furthermore, it would be omitting his Russian/Austrian-Jewish ancestry which he appears to acknowledge as well. His infobox and his early life section already establish his dual citizenship and French heritage. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 17:45, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

I can see your points, ScottishFinnishRadish and Clear Looking Glass, although one could then also question why him being American needs to be mentioned in the lede (not really!). I still think there's a compromise to be had here. Since this is an intractable problem, causing arguments on the talk page and biting of new users and edit warring on the article itself, it would seem that a vocal minority of our readers aren't happy with the status quo and haven't been for some time. So there must be a compromise somewhere. I liked what Trillfendi came up with, but that doesn't seem to fly with others. There must be some way of encapsulating this gentleman's ancestry that has led him to be being bilingual and having a French name, close enough to the top of the article to satisfy the French, but not so much at the top as to insult the Americans, regardless of our guidelines on this type of thing if needs be. We can puzzle this out together! — TREY MATURIN has spoken 18:07, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the compromise you gave. Not wanting to put the fact that he has a significant amount of French to him (last name, first name, his sister who lives in France, his father who is also a well-known personality in France, and the many trips that Mr. Chalomet makes in France ) is outside of all logic. Look on the Wikipedias of other countries, it is mentioned that he is American and French

Make an effort, or else this edit war will never end Hatrant (talk) 22:13, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Hatrant: - I've reverted your edits for now because the "majority of users" like you claimed in this discussion did NOT agree to change the wording.[1] It seems to be only you and perhaps Trey Maturin who have added discussion about adding "French". Past discussions have already already shown why users were against this. Chalamet was born in France, his career is not primarily active there, and he resides in the United States. He is as "French" as Scarlett Johansson is "Danish" or Sandra Bullock is "German". I'm keeping it at just American got now. Another user, @ScottishFinnishRadish: already mentions that his ancestry is mentioned throughout the article. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 01:22, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

An RFC might be wise at this point, to get broader input, and establish a firm consensus for the future. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:29, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

it's really only americans who think their country is better than the others. For the examples you gave, replace the en. in the url for de. or fr. or any other country and you will see that we respect each other by including all nationalities. We need a pool to vote Hatrant (talk) 10:18, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

@Trey Maturin Idk what to do with theses people, you are neutral, do you know how can we build a consensus? Hatrant (talk) 12:15, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

@Hatrant: For starters you can stop edit warring. ––FormalDude talk 12:16, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

I'll stop. I just want to find a compromise Hatrant (talk) 12:18, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Short description

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Per the discussion above, I have made a change to refer to this person as 'Franco-American' rather than 'American', since there are reliable sources to support this.

I haven't changed the {{Short description}} parameter, as I know the wording of these things are a sensitive point for many editors. I'd like to solicit community input – or at least people watching this page ;-) – as to whether

{{Short description|American actor (born 1995)}}

should be changed to

{{Short description|Franco-American actor (born 1995)}}

or the like. — TREY MATURIN has spoken 16:29, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Per further edits since I wrote the above, would {{Short description|American actor of French ancestry (born 1995)}} work for people? — TREY MATURIN has spoken 16:41, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RFC on nationality in the lead and shortdesc

How should the subject's nationality be described in the lead and short description?

• A) Lead: Timothée Hal Chalamet is an American actor. Shortdesc: American actor (born 1995)
• B1) Lead: Timothée Hal Chalamet is an American and French actor. Shortdesc: American and French actor (born 1995)
• B2) Lead: Timothée Hal Chalamet is a Franco-American actor. Shortdesc: Franco-American actor (born 1995)
• C) Lead: Timothée Chalamet is an American actor with dual French citizenship. Shortdesc: American actor with dual French citizenship (born 1995)

It will be nice to have a solid consensus derived from an RFC on this point, as it has been a frequent topic of disagreement. I've taken the three most recent wordings, and as the second and third options are still in favor of including French nationality I've labeled them B1 and B2. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:51, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I fixed a typo per the fish and added Timtempleton's suggested prose. Figured the addition is fine as there are no !votes yet. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:34, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Poll

• A - Just American per WP:ETHNICITY. His infobox and biography already mention and provide an extensive list of sources about his French father and Chalamet's dual citizenship. The United States is where he was born, primarily raised in, educated in, resides in and is the country where he first gained notability as an actor. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 06:35, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
• A is my first choice. His French heritage is only one aspect of his notability but the vast majority of his life has been in New York. Trillfendi (talk) 16:53, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
• I have tried to stay neutral in this dispute, seeking a compromise, but I'm prepared at this point to abandon neutrality and become WP:NACINV and thus unable to offer any dispute resolution here in future. So: B1 was, I thought, an elegant solution by Trillfendi. Failing that, C would also seem to meet the criteria for compromise I was seeking earlier between our guidelines and the views of our readers. Count that as my !vote. — TREY MATURIN has spoken 17:37, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
• B2, because he is a dual citizen and this is important. Seggallion (talk) 14:58, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
• A per MOS:FIRSTBIO. Not only does the option encompass Chalamet's citizenship, nationality, and place of permanent residency, but most reliable sources describe Chalamet as an American actor. His French citizenship is documented in the body and infobox. That's more than sufficient. KyleJoan^talk 15:26, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

• Summoned by bot. My suggestion for the lead: Timothée Chalamet is an American actor with dual French citizenship. Shortdesc: American actor with dual French citizenship (born 1995) My reasoning is that we need to provide his nationality for context, and it's incorrect to say just American, so we should include a mention of his dual citizenship. I changed the wording in the body to explain that his citizenship is dual due to his father being French. I think this properly explains the situation but de-emphasizes the impact that being part French has on his current life and career, which from what I see is not very much. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:04, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

  But then that would also overemphasise his French citizenship, which would now become the first piece of information given about Chalamet after stating that he is an actor. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 22:40, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

  I can see why there would be that perception, but we need to include his nationality near the start for proper context, and there's no denying that he's dual American and French. I think saying dual and then explaining later it's because of his father balances the fine line between overemphasizing and ignoring the detail. But it's a tricky subject, which is why it's an RfC now. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:45, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

  I agree that this a tricky subject, but users can look to his infobox and biography if they want to see the mention of his dual citizenship. As an example, Avril Lavigne is also a dual French citizen with a French-born father, but an RfC (which mentioned policies like WP:ETHNICITY iirc) agreed that her notability as an entertainer was in Canada, not France. Which is a similar scenario with Chalamet. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 06:47, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

• In B2, it should be "an" → "a". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:21, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
• In B2, "French American" would be a better (and more common) term than Franco-American. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 22:43, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

  I think either of those would be covered by B2, if someone has a preference. It's even in the lead of French American, French Americans or Franco-Americans... ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:00, 15 June 2022 (UTC)