Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

Not to be confused with Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian rules football, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canadian football.

Invitation to add content / 2021 in association football / Deaths

Bumping thread. JoeNMLC (talk) 14:52, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Being worked on: 14:52, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Today I started updating January 2021 Deaths section of 2021 in association football. Right away I noticed there are many people to be added. Then I started more sections for Feb. thru December. So I'm asking for help here - anyone who can contribute, it would be great. Thanks. JoeNMLC (talk) 22:17, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

For tracking, I added Progress section below. JoeNMLC (talk) 16:14, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Progress

As of September 8, Deaths for March 2021 are being added. Select "show" for previous progress.
Month of	Status
March 2022	Being updated
Febuary 2022	Done  • September 8, 2022
January 2022  • September 5, 2022	Done  • September 5, 2022

Moussa N'Daw

Hi all, can I have a second opinion on this please? The career stats table has been continuously edit warred on and off. I have already done two reverts as the content is unsourced but I am no longer allowed to revert because of WP:3RR. I note that Soccerway has been added for N'Daw but there is no mention of any career stats! I am going to raise an ANI against User:مهدي جزائري for their behaviour today anyway but was wondering if someone experienced with Arabic football might be able to assist. Are the stats legit? Is there actually a source out there? If not, then I think they should be removed. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 12:23, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree they should be removed unless adequately sourced. GiantSnowman 10:06, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Juventus Next Gen players who played with the old team's name

I've used Efn notes (with Greek letters, not to create confusion with the stats table reflist) to show to the reader that the team had changed name during his Juventus Next Gen stay. For istance, see here. Should I do the same for the players who were of Juventus Next Gen with the old name? Dr Salvus 18:02, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

The players who were of Juventus Next Gen with the old name: what do you mean? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 18:04, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

The players who had played for the club prior to the August 2022 renaming. Dr Salvus 18:11, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Leave them alone. After the page move there should be a redirect, so the text displayed will show the name of the team when they played for it. Spike 'em (talk) 18:19, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Agree, old name is fine. Also, can we go more than 3 days on here without a new thread about Juventus- there seems to be an overkill of discussions here about their articles. Joseph2302 (talk) 18:47, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

making juve u23 non notable and deleting all their pages would help with that. its a youth team after all.Muur (talk) 21:29, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

It isn't, though. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 21:40, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

We should use the historically accurate name - so if they played for the club only when it was 'Juventus U23' then display that name. GiantSnowman 10:07, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Agree with GS. Paul Vaurie (talk) 01:00, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Is it even worth making an article?

Should Sue Whyatt, Elaine Badrock and Janet Bagguley have articles? There are articles proving that the did play in England's first official women's national team match, see for yourselves Macclesfield's original Lioness celebrates England's Euro triumph | InYourArea News, Meet the women who paved the way for England's footballers to become World Cup stars (inews.co.uk),Original Lionesses: 'We had it rough, we had to really fight' - BBC News, 40 years ago today: Scotland 2-3 England - SheKicks Dwanyewest (talk) 23:29, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I haven't done any comprehensive newspaper searches yet but I'm mostly getting passing mentions and brief quotes from these footballers and not any extensive independent coverage. Might I suggest creating them as redirects to List of England women's international footballers for now as they are plausible search terms? In fact, I'll do this myself for now. Should significant online or offline coverage be found, the redirects can then be replaced with a full article. Due to WP:GNG and WP:SPORTBASIC, it isn't enough just to be part of a team to have an article. The individual footballer would need to have been subject to specific media coverage focusing on them. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:21, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

There is a massive problem with gender bias on Wikipedia. Unfortunately there are a lot of bad faith editors aiming to delete as many sport biographies as they can so it is difficult for me to recommend you creating those articles right now.--EchetusXe 10:02, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

I wonder if that first match itself could be the subject of an article, there certainly seems to be enough reliable independent coverage about that, even if it is almost all contemporary. There is an equivalent article for the first men's match. Black Kite (talk) 10:52, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the first match would be a worthwhile stand-alone article. It's a landmark game and has significant coverage. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 12:33, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Some assistance would be nice

I think UEFA Women's Euro 2001 Final should be merged or redirected into UEFA Women's Euro 2001 final what are other people's thoughts maybe it should be discussed at Talk:UEFA Women's Euro 2001 final Dwanyewest (talk) 22:13, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

I fixed the redirect. Doesn't need a discussion or a merge tag for that. oknazevad (talk) 00:57, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Categories for players who haven't played for the first team

Neither I, nor many WP:FOOTY members like the fact that we put categories on players who haven't played for the first team. Example: Samuel Iling-Junior spent nine years in Chelsea youth teams without making the first-team debut. Why should the page have Category:Chelsea F.C. players? We'd arleady discussed on in early February, finding no concensus. I would like to revive the discussion again.

In Iling-Junior's example, I would put Category:Juventus Next Gen players (three appearances for them) but I would not put Category:Juventus F.C. players because he has yet to make his first-team debut. Any objection? Dr Salvus 21:08, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

I think that we should week them in such categories, like Category:Chelsea F.C. players, because being a "Chelsea player" doesn't inherently mean you're on the first team of the club. You can be a "Chelsea player" and be a youth team player. From the moment the player can validly "I am a Chelsea player", I would put him in that category. This is my personal take and what we have been going off of for a while. Paul Vaurie (talk) 00:59, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Support removing categories for youth only player I agree that we shouldn't include categories for youth clubs, only senior. Iling-Junior has never been a Chelsea senior player or had a pro senior contract with Chelsea, so no one in real life would call him an ex-Chelsea player.--Ortizesp (talk) 04:47, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Thing is, in real life, or as close to it as reliable published sources get, they do call Iling-Junior an ex-Chelsea player: Goal.com: Samuel Iling-Junior: Ex-Chelsea wonderkid impressing at Juventus, Evening Standard via MSN: "On the bench is former Chelsea forward Samuel Iling-Junior", BBC text commentary: "Miretti could find himself up against a familiar face - Juventus team-mate Samuel Iling-Junior, the former Chelsea youth winger who moved to Italy in 2020.", etc etc etc. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:20, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

I think being called a "Chelsea youth" or "Chelsea wonder-kind" is different than being a Chelsea player. Maybe it's conjecture, but I don't think many would consider him a proper ex-Chelsea player, or perhaps I'm mistaken. Like no one would say Harry Kane is an ex-Arsenal player, or Giggs an ex-Man City player, and it would be ridiculous to imply that. Players in List of one-club men in association football often play for more than one youth team.--Ortizesp (talk) 15:48, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

I think the criterion should be having a professional contract, rather than playing for the first team. Most clubs have signed players who are put in the development squad but never make the first team and move on, but they were still professional players for that club. However, being a 10-year old on the books of the likes of Chelsea does not really make you a Chelsea player. Daemonickangaroo2018 (talk) 08:34, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Was he to be a phenomenon, no one may ever remember him as a "Chelsea" player. The 99% of a team's fans aren't interested in its youth teams. Dr Salvus 10:40, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Would also remove categories when playing only in youth sector. Kante4 (talk) 15:53, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

I'll add my name to the "let's not have youth players in a category for senior players" list. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 18:00, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree that such categories should be reserved for players who have earned a cap for senior teams, whether men's or women's. Youth club teams are generally non-notable, though some exceptions could be made. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 19:08, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Then, I would instead include the categories for the reserve teams who play in a league which is in the national league system (e.g. France, Spain, Italy but not England) Dr Salvus 19:20, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

What about players who were with a club as a professional but didn't play any actual games? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:44, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Let's take Mohamed Farès' example. In January, Lazio loaned him to Torino until June. A few days later, he had an ACL injury which prevented him from making his debut. Since the player was assigned to the first team, I'd insert Category:Torino F.C. players.

Another example: Gabriele Mulazzi signed a professional contract in September 2020. However, he spent the 2020-21 and 2021-22 seasons with Juventus U19 and was promoted to the U23s this summer (and still plays Youth League matches for the U19s as an overage player). In this case, I would not include Category:Juventus F.C. players beacuse the player has not been assigned to the 1st team nor fielded by the 1st team. Dr Salvus 20:00, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

If the team is included in the "Senior career" section of the infobox I would include the category, even if the player never made an appearance for them. Categories should be removed if they only played at youth level for that club. Reserve team players (in senior pyramids) should only have the reserve team categories, not senior. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 21:05, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

@Nehme1499, take Brando Moruzzi's example. In January, Juventus purchased him from a Serie D team and promptly loaned him back to that team. This summer he made his return at Juventus with whom he was assigned to the U19s. He has never played for the first team but he's in the "Senior career" section of the infobox (because "youth career cannot extend beyond senior"). Would you really add Category:Juventus F.C. players to the page?

(And tbh, I've seen all Juventus U19's matches this season and, due to his poor performances, I do doubt he'll ever play for the first team) Dr Salvus 21:48, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

I have been bold and have removed categories for the Juventus U23's players who haven't yet played for the first team. Dr Salvus 13:39, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

That goes against current consensus. I'm not saying I disagree with the proposal, but it needs to be agreed upon. Crowsus (talk) 14:49, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

We have always categorised players by clubs that they have signed for, whether or not they have played, and whether or not they have been professional, amateur, youth etc. To do otherwise would introduce too many variables and therefore too much room for arguments and conflict. GiantSnowman 14:46, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Double link in table

Hello. Should clubs be double-linked in season article transfer sections when a club sells/buys two players from/to the same club? For example, 2022–23 Paris Saint-Germain F.C. season, where PSG has sold three players to Eupen. Should Eupen be linked three times? Also, rather minor detail, but should we also merge the club box if two of the same clubs are right next to each other? For example 2022–23 Montpellier HSC season with Troyes. Paul Vaurie (talk) 01:04, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Don't merge, as I think it creates accessibility problems for reader devices (?). Regarding the double link, I'm indifferent. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 09:46, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Fabrizio Romano

Do we need to discuss Fabrizio Romano here? Or is Dhjeekw the only user who needs a primer?

Anyway, here's my take:

• If Fab mentions a player or manager, the project should keep a careful eye on the article because it will attract users who want to be the first to make the edit.
• Fab has good sources and he is way more reliable than, say, the tabloids and Sky Sports. I'm not aware of him ever being wrong about a potential transfer.
• That said, he'll tweet things at different stages of transfer negotiations, which I think confuses non-regular Wikipedians. "Talks ongoing", "deal agreed", "announcement soon" and his trademark "here we go" are all incorrectly interpreted as "the transfer is complete". Only "official and announced" is the one that matters for our purposes.

Anyway, I think if Fabrizio is tweeting, we should be aware of edits we need to make, but need to pay close attention to how he words his tweets since he'll literally tweet every step of a transfer. Adeletron 3030 (talk • edits) 14:32, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

It appears Dhjeekw has been blocked indefinitely. Paul W (talk) 14:45, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Regardless of how Romano gets his information, we should wait until things are officially announced. Dhjeekw has been indeffed for edit warring and treating these speculative sources as facts, so I'd recommend nobody else does the same. Joseph2302 (talk)

Indeed. As I explained to Dhjeekw shortly before they were indeffed, Fabrizio Romano (or any other gossip-monger) isn't a reliable source for a transfer being complete. Ever. The only reliable sources for an ongoing transfer being complete are the clubs concerned. And once it has been officially announced as complete, there's no need to use gossip sites, whether it's Romano or "Sky Sports understands" or any other. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:06, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

@Struway2 Oh, I don't disagree at all. Always go for the official channels, even when the tweet is "confirmed and announced." But I do think his tweets are useful for:

(1) Knowing which articles will require attention

(2) Anticipating edits that'll need to be made in the near future, more so than other outlets, since he's detailed about the stage of negotiations and timing.

And I agree that his tweets are never WP:RS. Adeletron 3030 (talk • edits) 15:13, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Have to say this is the first time I have ever heard of the bloke. Clearly I am very out of touch...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:29, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

I competletly agree with Adeletron. Dr Salvus 20:42, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Troubling AfD

I find the AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Football at the 2001 Maccabiah Games to be quite troubling. 2603:7000:2143:8500:401A:1701:C4F5:B270 (talk) 06:53, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Please add your thoughts at the AfD page; as I believe you have already done; the discussion will take place there. As you have drawn this project's attention to that discussion other editors may also have thoughts to add. But, please be careful in respect of WP:Canvas. Eagleash (talk) 10:09, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Help with a disruptive editor

User Nzs9 is being disruptive, keeping on adding the season's fixtures to the 2022–23 A-League Men season page. This issue was brought up on the talk page, and despite this they ignore and keep adding it, and even calling other editors disruptive for restoring to stable version. Could I get some guidance from some editors with more experience before I get to 3RR? Thank you --SuperJew (talk) 09:27, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Removed it for now. Didn't we have a consensus about that to not include fixtures on a season article? (this is what i found) Not sure if we should discuss it now and invite all participants of the discussion at the A-League article. Kante4 (talk) 09:35, 11 September 2022 (UTC)