Talk:Asim Munir

Controversies

In yet another case of blatant corruption by a Pakistan Army officer the Core Commander of Gujranwala Lieutenant General Asim Munir demanded Rs. 90 crore extortion money from the chief executive officer of Master Tiles, one of the largest companies of Pakistan that employs over ten million people. However this was denied by the chief executive officer of Master Tiles and confirmed by Lieutenant General (retired) Amjad Shoaib.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=emL2FmZ3Ilg

Lt. Gen. Asim Munir had earlier held the plum positions of DG ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence) and DG Military Intelligence 81.157.166.61 (talk) 06:54, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2023

I want to add a "Personal life" section before the "Military career" section, going as follow:

"Asim Munir's family roots lie in Toba Tek Singh but they have been living in Rawalpindi's Dehri Hassanabad for decades now. His father was the principal of a technical school, a brother is also a teacher while his brother-in-law Air Chief Marshal Mushaf Ali Mir passed away in an air crash in 2003.

Locally, the family has been known to be religious and scholarly, Asim Munir's father being a Hafiz-e-Quran, having memorized the entire Qur'an by heart, and he himself memorized the Qur'an in Rawalpindi's Madrassah Darul Tajweedul Quran, being a student of a well-known local scholar and preacher, Hafiz Khalil Ahmed." 2A02:A03F:6504:1700:3142:CE82:1C31:47C5 (talk) 08:37, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

References

 Partly done: Added section and second paragraph with rewrites for clarity and better coherence to citation in this diff. Feel free to ping me if any of my changes are unacceptable. First paragraph not done because requested text is not supported by given citation. Reopen the edit request if reliable sources can be found. Xan747 (talk) 20:51, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Greetings, I want to first thank you for at least adding the second paragraph.

As for the 1st paragraph it was present in the link but now apparently it's no more accessible unless you're a subscriber, but I've found another link with the exact same info :

Read the very last paragraph in particular.

Also it'd be good to include the name of Mushaf Ali Mir in the Infobox, in the relatives cat as "brother-in-law".

Thanks again. 2A02:A03F:6504:1700:9918:D448:6E18:976B (talk) 09:35, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done with minor changes. Scientia potentia est, -MonarchOfTerror (talk) 11:15, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi thanks a lot, can I ask for other slight changes ?

There seems to be an extra comma (",") here (subsection "Personal life", second paragraph) :

"He was also a student of Islamic preacher, Hafiz Khalil Ahmed."

The "," between "preacher" and "Hafiz" seems to break the fluidity of the sentence.

Also could we rephrase the beginning of this 2nd paragraph ? Because we get "Asim Munir's family" twice, at the beginning of the 2nd one we could say "His family" instead.

Lastly : the subsection name "Retirement & Reappointment" could be restylized as "Retirement and reappointment" (the & and capital letter in second word seems odd from Wikipedia's usual writing templates).

Thanks. 2A02:A03F:6504:1700:7027:23CA:905C:63F2 (talk) 06:00, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done All requested changes implemented. Scientia potentia est, -MonarchOfTerror^(talk) 07:59, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

27 June 2023

User:Raheelejaz907 I do not understand why you're removing my sourced edit. I previously warned you for reverting my sourced edit without providing an explanation, and now you reverted my edit again, but this time by falsely claiming in an edit summary that its "IP Vandalism," even though I am logged in. Please stop before you are reported for edit warring. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SahafatKaLover18 (talk • contribs) 09:20, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello User:SilkTork kindly facilitate this discussion between us as User:Raheelejaz907 still has not responded. SahafatKaLover18 (talk) 22:22, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Also, what do we do if they don't respond? Can I restore my edit? SahafatKaLover18 (talk) 22:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

You wish to make an edit saying that Asim Munir was known as "The Deceiver" - correct? And you are sourcing that information to a Twitter account. Only in exceptional cases would we accept a Twitter account as a reliable source, and never as a source on a living person. See WP:RSSELF. So you would need to find a reliable source first. I also note that you wish to add Shah to his name in the lead, which I understand would be an honorary title rather than part of his name. Currently in the lead his name is given as "Syed Asim Munir Ahmed", while in the infobox his name is given as "Asim Munir Ahmad Shah". So Shah is an honorary title, and Syed is an honorary title. And it appears to me that both can be used. There is a news source here which uses both: DND. I am unsure how reliable the source is. There is another news source Indian Express. We have an article on The Indian Express, which sugest it would be a reliable source. If unsure whether a source is reliable, you can ask at WP:RSN.

When Raheelejaz907 returns to editing you can discuss this edit together and come to an agreement. It appears to me that using Shah is supported by sources, though it would be appropriate to get Raheelejaz907's opinion. To use "The Deceiver" you'd need to have a reliable source, and to hear Raheelejaz907's objection. Allow Raheelejaz907 a few more days to respond before making an edit. Don't make an edit without notifying me first. And make sure you have reliable sources for any information you wish to add. SilkTork (talk) 00:03, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

The reliable source is the Twitter account, Wajahat S. Khan. He is a journalist and majority of his shows were with the army. He didn't come up with the moniker himself, the nickname is in the student yearbook of the Pakistan Command and Staff College which Asim attended as a Major where he was given the nickname "The Deceiver". You can see it in this tweet [1] SahafatKaLover18 (talk) 01:32, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I have found that User:Raheelejaz907 is editing off of User:Raheeiejaz907 account which is why they have not responded to this discussion or on their talk page. What do we do now? Also could you please respond to my previous reply, thanks. SahafatKaLover18 (talk) 02:40, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

In regards to your previous reply, I'm not sure if you noticed what I had written above: "Only in exceptional cases would we accept a Twitter account as a reliable source, and never as a source on a living person. See WP:RSSELF. So you would need to find a reliable source first." To make it clearer: you cannot use the Twitter source, so you'll need to find a reliable source for the school nickname of "The Deceiver"; and if it is agreed to use that information, it has to be placed in context (ie, not in the first sentence), but in an Early history section about where he was born, and his education. That someone had a nickname at school or college is not in itself essential information.

I'll take a look at the User:Raheelejaz907 / User:Raheeiejaz907 situation. SilkTork (talk) 11:40, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

User:Raheeiejaz907 has been indefinitely blocked as a sock of User:Raheelejaz907, and User:Raheelejaz907 has been blocked for one week as the sockmaster.

SahafatKaLover18, you may continue editing this article, but do not include the contentious edits - that Asim Munir was known as "The Deceiver" and that his name includes the title Shah, until Raheelejaz907's block is over, and they have had a chance to discuss the issue. If they have not responded here by ten days time, you may include that information, but only if you use cites to reliable sources which support the information, and that the information is placed in the appropriate place in the article, as discussed above. SilkTork (talk) 12:31, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

his name in PMA was "The Deceiver" thats what he is doing now. Deceiving the people of Pakistan. 37.210.87.203 (talk) 11:32, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Wrong ethnic info

In the personal life section it’s written that Asim Munir is Urdu speaking but he’s actually Punjabi.

See this :

"His parents migrated from Jalandhar, east Punjab […] he would be the eighth Punjabi Army Chief […]"

Source : https://www.firstpost.com/opinion-news-expert-views-news-analysis-firstpost-viewpoint/gen-asim-munir-unlikely-to-be-busy-on-india-front-for-now-as-imran-khan-hostile-durand-line-pose-new-challenges-11725771.html/amp

Thus I propose to change the opening lines as such :

"Asim Munir was born into a middle class Punjabi Muslim family, their roots lying in Jalandhar, now in Indian Punjab, from where his parents migrated."

Thanks. 2A02:A03F:69BC:5F00:85F9:AB43:E79C:29F (talk) 08:36, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

 Comment: He joined the army after passing out with the sword of honour (first position) this was copied from the "firstpost" (is this a high quality source?). The second source doesn't mention Punjab. M.Bitton (talk) 09:23, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi I just quoted one source, the Firstpost one, which mentions the quote I brought and thus his ethnic Punjabi background, and yes Firstpost is considered a reliable publication. 188.95.55.126 (talk) 09:55, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

 Question: Just to make sure I understand you want to

Change: Asim Munir was born to a middle class Punjabi Muslim family. Munir's family is originally from Toba Tek Singh but they have been living in Rawalpindi's Dehri Hassanabad for decades now.

To: Asim Munir was born into a middle class Punjabi Muslim family, their roots lying in Jalandhar, now in Indian Punjab, from where his parents migrated.

OR, do you want to change only the first sentence, and leave the second sentence as is?

ALSO, the lede sentence of the article gives his name in Urdu. If he's Punjabi, should that be changed too? If so, to what? Xan747 (talk)

Hi when I wanted to make the change it was no "middle class Punjabi Muslim" but "middle class Urdu speaking", yet we can still add more details (namely his ultimate roots in India's Punjabà, so I want to make it that way :

"Asim Munir was born into a middle class Punjabi Muslim family, their roots lying in Jalandhar, now in Indian Punjab, from where his parents migrated. They moved to Toba Tek Singh before settling down in Rawalpindi's Dehri Hassanabad, where they have been established for decades now. His father, Syed Sarwar Munir [...]"

I don't put a source for the second part of the paragraph because it's already sourced in the main article, at the very end of the whole paragraph (that is, the "Aaj News" profile).

Of course you can change it in terms of style/grammar to fit it more with Wikipedia guidelines (English is not my mother tongue).

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A03F:6504:1700:3089:F5C3:1F13:98E5 (talk) 18:27, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done Xan747 (talk) 03:57, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi thanks there's also a little thing to add and I thought it wasn't worth adding a topic if you could it there.

Basically in the main article his full name is "Syed Asim Munir Ahmed Shah"

But in the infobox it's only "Asim Munir Ahmed Shah" so I thought adding "Syed" would be interesting especially as in the native language it's there (سَیِد عاصم منیر احمد شاہ)

Thanks. 2A02:A03F:6504:1700:1129:B69C:1C57:92E6 (talk) 19:07, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Also done. Xan747 (talk) 20:15, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Controversies text

It seems the 'Controversies' text is written entirely by some zealot from Pakistan Tehreek Insaf (PTI) party and therefore this section should be declared as disputed. Mhikhalid (talk) 09:04, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Firstpost is an inaccurate biased source in view of pakistani affairs 39.32.158.110 (talk) 19:46, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Indian media references in "Controversies" part

Please check the "Controversies" part, the PTI anti-state goons are now using the most untrusted media's references (Indian media) to defame the country and the Army chief. 39.55.252.56 (talk) 22:47, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Add a controversies section

Looking at the previous topics i assume a section was there however it had now been removed due to it being "bias".So yeah just add it again without the bias bs DrWineBerry (talk) 14:34, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

all of the controversies were biased entirely as they either belonged to unreliable indian sources or anti state pti sources 39.32.79.194 (talk) 21:00, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Most of the things said about him are very much the truth its your ignorance that has you thinking like that DrWineBerry (talk) 11:55, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Firstpost is debunked as an inaccurate source by every media forum be it the west or east, other than that pti's fake propaganda has been exposed as imran didnt even have single proof to support moeed pirzada and pti allegations against asim in Jit courts 39.32.55.71 (talk) 12:30, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

mf do you even live in Pakistan? DrWineBerry (talk) 15:22, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

wiki is not for pti bias lol i live here and ik how pti ruined nation in just 4 yrs obv worsened by pdm but still lmao pti is a hypocritical corrupt party lolol 39.32.37.222 (talk) 14:05, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

This isn't about pti,this is about the fact that the army has its hands in civil institutions and the civil government,you obviously are a very ignorant person DrWineBerry (talk) 12:04, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

aint i blinded by political agenda of a criminal lol 39.44.132.87 (talk) 04:26, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

people like you are the reason we can't have civil conversations in this country,i see you all over this page dickriding the pak army.I have been talking with an ignorant idiot and wish to not continue this conversation with an intellectually disabled person,good day DrWineBerry (talk) 14:00, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Mf Army has nothing to do with this nonsense, target the Generals as much as you want but please don't add the Indian media references you Indian azz licker 39.45.111.25 (talk) 17:57, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

When did i add any of those links?why do you get so damn triggered over the army getting criticised that you have to call anyone who does the criticism an "indian ass licker" or "anti state pti person"The army has ruled Pakistan for more than half of its lifetime,the army has many businesses including sugar mills,real estate etc.Whenever someone criticises the army it should be obvious that the criticism isn't directed towards the normal army soldier,rather these rich generals(like bajwa and asim) who have profited from running this country to the ground.The head of SPARCO is a retired army maj.general.The head of PTA is a retired army general,The director of Nadra is a retired army brigadier,the chief executive of the PIA is a retired army air marshal,The chairman of NAB is a retired general and i could go on and on.Why the fuck are these people even here instead of capable civilians?Why the fuck does the army brutally silence anyone who speaks against it?why did they jail children and woman who had nothing to do with 9th may?Why did the army commit genocide against Bangladeshis in 1971?Yet after all the shit the army has done,people like YOU still defend it,you should be ashamed of yourself,i hope you come to your senses and do some research without your hate boner for a particular political party DrWineBerry (talk) 18:36, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Damn cope 😫 39.44.143.136 (talk) 19:02, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

imagine defending 2nd most corrupt politician in our history cope dawg 🤣 39.44.143.136 (talk) 19:04, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Its hilarious that the fact you can't find anything to say against my argument so you just resort to these baseless insults,you're the one coping hard right now,maybe it wouldn't be funny if your family was being kidnapped,rapped and tortured by Army personnel.Thess mfs restricted social media sites when pti did a livestream,they also banned wikipedia for a while.But no,pathetic and privileged people like you still defend them,COPE harder.Plus this will be my last message for you because you have got nothing to say except these pathetic little insults that effects no one, go back to your privileged life bootlicking these Army generals 😂 DrWineBerry (talk) 04:08, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Wrong personal life info

The number of children (3) mentioned in this article is an incorrect information please remove. Alphadentist1991 (talk) 11:57, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Replacing external sources with proper referencing

Hi lately there has been a lot of added info in the "Personal life" section, info that is legitimate, in the sense that I don't dispute the sources, but which are referenced in a way very unlike what's seen on Wikipedia, so I was just thinking about transforming these external sources to make them more common.

I also want to replace the "Personal life" name by "Early life and education", as it'd reflect the section better, and also I brought some slight stylistical changes to make the reading better.

So it goes :

Early life and education

Asim Munir was born into a middle class Punjabi Muslim family, their roots lying in Jalandhar, now in Indian Punjab, from where his parents migrated. They moved to Toba Tek Singh before settling down in Rawalpindi's Dehri Hassanabad, where they have been established for decades now. His late father, Syed Sarwar Munir, was the principal of the FG Technical High School, Rawalpindi and Imam of a Mosque, Masjid-Al-Quraish, situated in a locality of Dheri Hassanabad, where he often delivered the Friday Khutbah sermon. Munir has two siblings, Syed Qasim Munir and Syed Hashim Munir, who are also Hafiz-e-Quran. One of his brothers is a government school teacher.

His family is locally known for being scholarly and religious. Both he and his father memorized the entire Qur'an, earning both the title of Hafiz-e-Quran, effectively making him only army chief in history of Pakistan who is Hafiz-e-Quran. Asim Munir accomplished this feat while attending the Madrassah Darul Tajweedul Quran in Rawalpindi. He was also a student of Islamic preacher Hafiz Khalil Ahmed.

Asim Munir graduated from the Fuji school, Japan, the Command and Staff College, Quetta, the Malaysian Armed Forces College, Kuala Lumpur and the National Defence University, Islamabad, where he earned his MPhil in Public Policy and Strategic Security Management.

He has been described as a fitness enthusiast, fond of running, physical workout and sports in general, and also as a keen book reader and traveller.

 Done the above, but with some modifications. I struck the final paragraph about being a fitness enthusiast, etc., as they are not very notable interests. I also did some light editing for grammar and readability. Will continue to work on the rest of this request. Xan747 (talk) 21:26, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi thanks, but "Early life and education" at the beginning is a sub-section whereas it has to be a section I think, cheers. 2A02:A03F:64ED:2600:EDEA:1CD9:E214:C31C (talk) 08:35, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

[EDIT] I just saw that in two other places the last source has been quoted as an external source, namely at the beginning :

"Asim Munir is a recipient of prestigious Sword of Honour for his excellent performance as a cadet officer of the Officer Training School.[1]"

And at the end of the "Military career" section :

"Besides, he is the only army chief in the history of Pakistan who has earlier served as chief of both premier military intelligence agencies of Pakistan, namely, Inter-Services Intelligence and Military Intelligence.[4]"

So these two external sources ([1] and [4]) should be replaced with the following link quoted in the new "Early life and education" section :

Thanks. (Previously unsigned comment added at 19:09, 23 July 2023 by 2a02:a03f:64ed:2600:b167:7d27:1b08:1ed1)

References

 Done Xan747 (talk) 21:31, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

(copied from the previous post)

Hi thanks, but "Early life and education" at the beginning is a sub-section whereas it has to be a section I think, cheers. 2A02:A03F:64ED:2600:EDEA:1CD9:E214:C31C (talk) 12:02, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Fixed. Xan747 (talk) 15:00, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Date of birth

Asim Munir's date of birth is missing. Please find and add it. 39.39.97.142 (talk) 03:16, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 August 2023

His Full Name: Asim Munir Whisky 2A02:6B68:1541:0:CD0F:67FC:1218:C7DD (talk) 20:28, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 21:26, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 August 2023

39.47.115.156 (talk) 11:56, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Gen asim munir was not the first or the only cheif who was awarded the sword of honour, the first one was asif nawaz Janjua

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 12:09, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

remove or edit controversies

pti social media team is attributing opioninative articles and false/unproven accusations from either unreliable and untrustworthy sources to defame the chief or khan himself who could never prove these accusations against jit or courts, plus who uses blogs which have no proper sourcing or reluability in controversies,no such instances of threatening wives or children have proof neither in form of audio nor video, please keep wikipedia bias free for readers than to support the agenda of a violent political party whom has a history of spreading false info itself, thank you 39.44.132.87 (talk) 04:25, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

S 2A02:9B0:20:C015:9C68:B1FF:A9B4:74B2 (talk) 21:42, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2023

Please add:

Allegations

Asim Munir is alleged to have suppressed Pakistan Tahreek-e-Insaf (PTI) political movement in Pakistan led by Imran Khan. In the aftermath of May 9 riots, following the arrest of Imran Khan on corruption allegations, Asim Munir used military courts for civilians that rebelled against the army. On May 20, 2023 Asim Munir announced that the “legal process of trial against planners, instigators, abettors and perpetrators involved in 9 May tragedy has commenced under Pakistan Army Act and Official Secret Act.” . Furthermore, Asim Munir exhorted army professionals to root out PTI inclined individuals. . Human rights organizations raised the concerns that military trails lack the necessary safeguards and transparency, thereby exposing to the risk of potential miscarriages of justice . In a landmark judgement, the Supreme Court of Pakistan declared the trial of civilians in military courts as null and void, thereby drawing a legal line between the civilian and military domain.

References

Deactivating request as the requester is now autoconfirmed and can add this themselves if it really belongs. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:13, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

December 2023

@WaseemAbbaass Hi, I see you reverted my edit about Munir’s public image, citing “vandalism”, however, I kept a balanced view, discussing his good points and bad points, while backed by citations. Could you please tell me your reasoning for why you think it’s vandalism? VirtualVagabond (talk) 11:14, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 December 2023

Remove unnecessary controversies that should not be part of the profile. Unnecessary conspiracies DaDefeender (talk) 05:38, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 06:22, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:Wikivoice and WP:MoS.

In the lede last line "for his excellent performance as a cadet in the Officers Training School" should just be "for his performance as a cadet in the Officers Training School." 182.183.11.242 (talk) 06:07, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

sword of honor is given to top cadet who is excellent in all aspects so thats why 39.38.243.40 (talk) 16:27, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Janruary 2024

@WaseemAbbaass Dear Wikipedia editor, the public image section has been added to provide a broader perspective of how the public perceives the chief of army staff of Pakistan. Please note it is not vandalism and kindly refrain from deleting this section. I will substantiate my claims here and I invite you to do the same if you want to delete this section:

• Voice of Americe (VOA) article regarding interference of Army in civilian affairs and crackdown on smuggling mentions Asim Munir by name:
  • The Pakistani military is the country's most powerful institution. Despite a civilian caretaker government running the country until general elections are held next year, the head of the army, Gen. Asim Munir, is playing a prominent role in state affairs, much like his predecessors. Receiving a briefing with top provincial government officials recently, the army chief pledged that a crackdown on smuggling and other illegal activities would continue "to rid Pakistan from the substantial losses it continues to suffer due to pilferage," according to a statement issued by the military's media wing.

• First Post article regarding the deportation of Afghans mentions Asim Munir by name:
  • Pakistan Army chief General Asim Munir said on Thursday that the security of each Pakistani is of paramount importance and cannot be compromised as he highlighted the imminent deportation of thousands of illegal immigrants.

• Wilson Center article regarding the use of military courts for trial of civilians mentions Asim Munir by name:
  • The decision by Pakistan Army to try civilians accused of involvement in the May 9 riots under military laws has ignited concerns among human rights activists, raising questions about the protection of fundamental rights and civil liberties in the country. During an address to officers in Lahore Garrison on May 20, Army Chief Gen. Asim Munir announced that the “legal process of trial against planners, instigators, abettors and perpetrators involved in 9 May tragedy has commenced under Pakistan Army Act and Official Secret Act.”

• StratNews Global article clearly mentions the address of Asim Munir to root out pro-PTI individuals:
  • During these visits, the Chief of Army Staff apparently exhorted the rank and file to behave professionally, and root out pro-PTI or any other kind of political inclination from their minds.
  • It was in the context of purging the military of Khan sympathisers within and launching a full-scale operation to dismantle the ex-PM’s ecosystem that the June 4 corps commanders took place.
  • It is evident from the statement issued on Friday by the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) that the military is ready to withstand any pressure, including from abroad in support of Khan, especially on grounds of human rights violations.
  • Third, the crackdown on the PTI leadership and masterminds of the May 9 attacks will now well and truly begin.

• Dawn article explicitly mentions the concerns of international organizations about use of military courts for civilians trails:
  • Regardless, the process must take place under civilian laws and in civilian-run courts where fair trial standards are far more likely to be upheld than in military courts, it demanded.
  • In the long term, as HRCP has been warning successive governments time and again that defending military courts as a quick solution is tantamount not only to shrugging off responsibility for the recent breakdown in law and order, but also to undermining civilian supremacy in general.

References

@DaDefeender please use the talk page to highlight which reference is biased or needs to be substantiated. Referencing with numbers doesnot work after the text has been deleted as the references get reordered. Kindly also refrain from deleting the text without proper discussion. As of now, reference 24 is from Economist, 25 from BBC News and 26 from Guardian. All of these are respected new papers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shaeel1992 (talk • contribs) 04:58, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2024

Please Admins give me permission to edit this page. DaDefeender (talk) 05:04, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. Cannolis (talk) 05:10, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

military trials point in public image

military trials conducted on civillians for rioting, commiting acts of terror are permitted under army act and condoned by every pilotician when in govt e.g., imran used these to eliminate tlp rivals, remove this point and merge it with human right in lak if really necessary 39.58.15.183 (talk) 10:49, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 January 2024

Asim Munir is a Shia Muslim 103.55.145.177 (talk) 15:52, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 16:27, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Replace "Public Image" with "Controversies" Section

General Asim Munir has been the most controversial Army Chief in recent time,i believe it would be better to reflect that in his wiki page DrWineBerry (talk) 04:12, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

why? public image is neutral, zia and abdul wahid kakar were.more controversial as well. public image considers both controversies and pros. bias is not for wikipedia as pti smt wants it everywhere 39.44.140.12 (talk) 14:06, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 7 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. I don't see enough support for "Syed Asim Munir" to move it there. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sennecaster (Chat) 21:24, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

---

Asim Munir (general) → Asim Munir – Asim Munir (cricketer) is relatively unknown and isn't covered in secondary sources. Asim Munir (general) is the primary topic. HistoriesUnveiler (talk) 16:16, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support the general has 35,589 views compared with only 35[[2]] for the cricketer. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:06, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 18:32, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Pakistan has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 18:32, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support I will prefer a move to Syed Asim Munir, but if there isn't sufficient support for this option, I'm fine with the suggestion made by the nominator. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 19:03, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

  I don’t think we should put in the “Syed”. Most articles have their titles as their more well known names while their actual full names are said in the first line of the article. VirtualVagabond (talk) 19:11, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

  It is not a hard and set rule, if the commonly used name incorporates the title, then the article title can include the person's title as well. This approach helps us prevent the need for deleting or relocating the disambiguation page. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 20:13, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

  I will support the name Syed Asim Munir Mohammad Murtaza Zaidi (talk) 05:36, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Support Agree with points made. The general is more well known than the cricketer by far. VirtualVagabond (talk) 19:12, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose moving to Syed Asim Munir per WP:NCBIO. --Saqib (talk) 09:40, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Rarely anyone here in Pakistan even known about this low-level cricketer Jemhorrett (talk) 15:43, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support Agreed with move to Asim Munir. That is one unnecessary DAB, the cricketer never really had a career in the "A" team. Wiki.0hlic ^(talk) 22:56, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

COI tag (February 2024)

That Islam playing a key role in his life. That he is described as a “deeply religious man. That he is applauded by some individuals for cracking down on dollar hoarding and smuggling, which strengthened the Pakistani rupee, causing it to be the world’s top-performing currency of September 2023. Clearly someone has COI. Saqib (talk) 09:33, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

It was quoted from a source, and the events that occurred were backed up by citations. If you look at the same Public Image page, you can see that his criticisms are still present, even longer than his appraisals. It’s not COI, it’s balance. VirtualVagabond (talk) 12:25, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

https://tribune.com.pk/story/2438393/rupee-named-worlds-best-performing-currency?amp=1 ,september 2023. u can search crackdowns etc. deeply religious can be changed to conservative tho 39.38.244.154 (talk) 16:40, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

The “deeply religious” was quoted from the source that was curated but yeah, conservative sounds better. VirtualVagabond (talk) 22:03, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

The most controversial general....

@VirtualVagabond: What leads you to believe that this was deemed inappropriate? Is it because the source lacks credibility, or does the statement is not encyclopedia worthy? Saqib (talk) 15:49, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

FirstPost has a track record of distributing false information, as for example, they circulated the false but well known “grave necrophilia case” which was debunked.

To add to this, what exactly is the metric for controversy? I do agree Munir is controversial, but anymore controversial than Zia-ul-Haq, who ruled the nation with an iron fist for over a decade? Or Tikka Khan? Who is well accused of human right abuses in Bangladesh and Balochistan.

I do think he’s controversial, that’s why I added some controversial actions he did. But I won’t state an opinion, it’s better to show that he is controversial, better than to say, which will ultimately add little to the article. I hope we can agree. VirtualVagabond (talk) 19:25, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

FanPOV and COI

@Saqib Why have you added FanPOV and COI to the article? There is only one paragraph explaining some of the positives he did, followed by two paragraphs of the actions that made him controversial. Also, the “deeply religious part” was taking verbatim from a source, not out of personal opinion. I have changed it to more neutral language though. I still don’t understand why you have added those tags. The article has to be balanced, whether you like the guy or not. Please do not be biased. VirtualVagabond (talk) 11:21, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I added tags because I noticed some of the claims weren't supported by the references cited and also some unreliable sources were cited in the BLP. Feel free to remove tags, as the issues are somewhat fixed since then. --Saqib (talk) 11:44, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Stopping the edit wars

Greetings, the user @DaDefeender has been deleting content (ex. "Political views") with no reason whatsoever, despite being pertinent and also backed by credible sources. I've tried to interact with the user on his personal page but haven't received any meaningful response. So I was wondering if there could be a stop to this edit war going on for weeks now and becoming honestly tiring. Thanks.

Metamentalist (talk) 20:01, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, I have been observing this as well. If you look at their edit history, a good chunk of the account is just reverting this page, and even seems to be the only one of the few intentions of the account. VirtualVagabond (talk) 21:35, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Trivial information

@VirtualVagabond Details such as "he is a fitness enthusiast, sportsman, and avid reader etc." are insignificant in an article about a General and do not contribute any substantial encyclopedic value. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 15:24, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

But it’s in the personal life section, it doesn’t have to be about anything military. VirtualVagabond (talk) 16:18, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Agreed with SheriffIsInTown, let's focus on including only the most relevant and significant details in the BLP.--Saqib (talk) 16:47, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

You didn’t really tackle my point, if it’s something to do with his personal life, then why shouldn’t we put it under the personal life section? VirtualVagabond (talk) 20:32, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

im not really prepared to die on this hill, im just asking. VirtualVagabond (talk) 20:35, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

We need to establish what aspects of an individual's personal life are sufficiently encyclopedic to warrant inclusion in the personal life section. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 21:21, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Scope

@Eupakistani Please see my edit summary for my reversion of your edit, I know you’re acting in good faith, but it’s not really notable. VirtualVagabond (talk) 13:41, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Allegations by Imran Khan

@SheriffIsInTown: The difference between the previous and today's press conference is evident. In the former, he expressed concern about his wife's safety and suggested holding the Munir accountable for any harm. However, in today's press conference, he attributed her spouse incarceration directly to Munir. Isn't this differentiation clear? Appreciate if you restore the content. And please engage in discussion on the talk page, instead of edit summaries, before reverting my edits. —Saqib (talk | contribs) 20:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Are you planning to respond here? I prefer not to revert your edit unless you respond. --—Saqib (talk | contribs) 15:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

If we initially state that he holds Munir accountable for any harm to his wife during imprisonment, it naturally suggests that he also blames Munir for the imprisonment itself. I don't believe it's necessary to reiterate that point. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 16:54, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, I don't find this reasoning convincing. It's unusual to accuse a serving COAS this way. The allegations are startling and we must present them verbatim as they are. --—Saqib (talk | contribs) 17:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Vandalism against a public figure must be authenticated by several sources and not by a single individual fore-sighting political gains from the statement. In this context there is no evidence that COAS is directly responsible for the acts that he has been pinned upon by Mr Imran Khan. There is no evidence either proven or medically provided that any such occurrence happened. So merely a controversial statement must not be put on a public figure wikipedia page. Atif ahmad8 (talk) 17:49, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I believe you should enjoy this essay: WP:NOTTRUTH. —Saqib (talk | contribs) 18:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Chief of Army Staff (2022-present)

The references in the "Chief of Army Staff (2022-present)" do not have any proof that Asim Munir was going to retired on 27th November also there was no evidence that he has submitted his retirement, these statements are just made up and not coming from institution spokesperson on contrary all these referenced articles are lacking evidence, so it is requested to remove such statements from the page. 194.61.40.114 (talk) 19:49, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

The references are indeed provided and our policy dictates that if something is published in a WP:RS, it should be mentioned. We are not tasked with determining its veracity. --—Saqib (talk | contribs) 19:55, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

General Asim Munir's intelligence service gives him an edge in countering contemporary security threats

One of the unique features of General Asim Munir is that he served both as DG MI and DG ISI which no other chief has served before. Gen Asim was appointed as DG MI in early 2017 and later DG ISI in Oct 2018. This intelligence service of Gen Asim will definitely affect the overall strategy of the Pakistan army in countering security threats in a unique manner and perspective.

https://www.globalvillagespace.com/will-gen-asim-overcome-the-countrys-security-challenges/ THEGUERRILLApk (talk) 21:15, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done per WP:PROMO and WP:UNRELIABLE. —Saqib (talk | contribs) 06:29, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

merge controversies into reputation

do we really need separate controversies when its all allegations shouldnt it be merged with reputation 39.60.215.67 (talk) 13:35, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I believe keeping reputation and controversy sections separate makes things clearer and fairer, which aligns with WP's guidelines for BLP's. —Saqib (talk | contribs) 13:51, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Concur with Saqib, allegations are from just one individual, that does not define his reputation as Army Chief. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 14:35, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

May 2024

@Saqib Shouldn’t we emphasise the fact that he brought no proof to it? Because I can’t really see any other source for this dialogue other than his tweets. VirtualVagabond (talk) 12:36, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

But by doing this, you're introducing WP:OR - Our job isn't to ascertain the truth. And just because someone else hasn't said something similar doesn't mean we shouldn't include Khalilzad's claim. —Saqib (talk | contribs) 12:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Alright then. VirtualVagabond (talk) 12:48, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Request for page protection.

I want to bring attention to the concerning issue of persistent vandalism and disruption. The page has been subjected to frequent instances of edits and disruptive behavior, compromising the integrity of the information presented.

Despite efforts to revert these edits and maintain the accuracy, the frequency and severity of vandalism have escalated, necessitating stronger measures to ensure its protection. As such, I request that the Wikipedia page be placed under protection lock to prevent further modifications. Atif ahmad8 (talk) 06:29, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Use reliable sources and relevant content

@GeorgeCrawford: Hello - let's have a quick chat about your recent edits. We've to make sure our information is backed up with RS. Take that mention about Rs. 90 crore extortion, for instance. newsupdatetimes.com might not be the most RS. You added a section titled [Persecution of Malik Riaz] using a social media site, which isn't acceptable either. Also - you should avoid adding WP:OFFTOPIC content. Adding info like the sacking of 03 army officers, including a lieutenant general, might not be relevant here. —Saqib (talk I contribs) 07:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Malik riaz issue is all over in news. I cited it directly from his social media. Sources can be revised.

It also directly relates to IHC judges letter and how judges and businessmen are pressured to give wrong judgements and become approvers respectively by agencies under Asims control.

Extortion is mentioned as allegations. It was reported well before he became army chief so it can not be considered a propoganda. GeorgeCrawford (talk) 08:59, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

GeorgeCrawford, Why is the recent Malik Riaz saga relevant to Asim? You need to provide a RS, not just his tweets. —Saqib (talk I contribs) 10:35, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I've added news citation. I think it would be more suitable under Pakistan's ISI's page.

I'll remove it from Asim's page. GeorgeCrawford (talk) 10:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

GeorgeCrawford, If you're open to my suggestion, I recommend adding things one by one instead of all together. It will be easier to verify the content this way. —Saqib (talk I contribs) 16:40, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll do that. GeorgeCrawford (talk) 16:43, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Content dispute

@VirtualVagabond and SheriffIsInTown: I've noticed an edit war happening on this BLP. Could we please discuss the matter here? Those attempting to censor the information should stop. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 15:14, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

@Saqib I have provided a reference that clearly contradicts the content being added here. Shaukat Siddiqui himself confirms that he was removed before Asim Munir's appointment as ISI head. In his 2018 speech, which led to his removal, he specifically accused Faiz Hameed by name. Additionally, Shuja Nawaz mentions that he was referring to the general perception. Should Wikipedia now publish "general perceptions" rather than facts to target an individual? Those attempting to turn this page into an attack page should cease. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 15:32, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

SheriffIsInTown, This information, even if untrue, is published in a RS, so I advise against removing it. And this wording was added by you, so please refrain from labeling it as an attack. Further, I included this to maintain NPOV. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 15:39, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi, there’s an edit war? Sheriff told me that I needed to add the quote and page number which I did. But he then still ultimately removed it. I haven’t taken any further action so I’m not sure how it constitutes as an edit war, as I did not intend for one. VirtualVagabond (talk) 16:43, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

@VirtualVagabond Saqib usually over-exaggerate the matters in order to build a case for a future report. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 16:47, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

SheriffIsInTown, Such a nasty comment! — Saqib (talk I contribs) 14:33, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

@Saqib Both editors involved are denying any edit war. VV accepted my reasoning for removing the content, which is why they didn't revert or start a discussion. With our level of editing experience, we can recognize when an edit war is happening and when to initiate a discussion. Given that both editors are denying an edit war, why are you intervening and portraying it as one? Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 15:28, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

SheriffIsInTown, I perceived it as an edit war, but if that wasn't the case, you could have just denied it instead of accusing me of over-exaggerate the matters. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 15:32, 27 July 2024 (UTC)