Talk:Pseudoscience

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This talkpage has gotten out-of-control. The discussions contained here have drifted so far away from the purpose of talkpages as to be really not worth keeping live. Therefore, I have archived the previous discussion. The issues are still active, but in the spirit of turning over a new leaf, let's begin discussing how to make the article better. To wit, let's have all contributions here be of the sort: "Let's include this in the article" or "Let's remove this from the article". No more arguments about people's behavior, no more discussions about what is and isn't a pseudoscience (except in regards to what to include or remove from the article), and generally no more tangential discussions. If you want to pursue any of these, there are other venues in which to do it. Now let's get back to editting. --ScienceApologist 17:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Am I making sense?

Am I making sense when I say, Pseudosciences make scientific claims but do not follow the scientific method, therefore they behave in certain ways that we list (i.e. Use of vague, exaggerated or untestable claims, etc.) In other words, if A then B. But when we try to say a particular field's theory is untestable -> therefore it is a pseudoscience, that would be saying; since B then A, which is not logical. So if we are going to use anything as an example of pseudoscience, we first have to prove they are A, otherwise there are a lot of things that behave like B but aren't A, such as surgery that can't use double blind tests, etc. Agree/Disagree? --Dematt 17:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The way pseudoscience is usually determined is through examining all the available evidence, not just pointing to single features. No one would ever claim that something was pseudoscience just because it couldn't be subject to double-blind tests. Subjects are pseudoscience because they make claims that either have been falsified or lack testability. --ScienceApologist 18:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think SA really addresses the point you make Dematt and his last claim is clearly worng (what science hasn't made any claims that have been falsified). In any event, the reasoning in your (Dematt's) claim has gone a bit awry. It is not that fields are psuedoscience therefore they do X. Rather, they do X (and Y and Z, or enough of them) therefore they are psuedoscience. In your example, then, the first A and B are the wrong way round and it should really read "do not follow the scientific method because they behave in certain ways.Davkal 19:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

My last point is not wrong. After falsification of an idea has occurred, pseudoscience supporters continue to advocate the idea in spite of its falsification. --ScienceApologist 19:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

That's a substantially different point. Davkal 19:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Not it isn't. I stated quite clearly that pseudoscience "makes claims that... have been falsified" as in "already" falsified. --ScienceApologist 19:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, my apologies, the wording was slightly ambiguous but all has been clarified now. Davkal 19:28, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you need to look at Popper and Kuhn; both stress that theories are retained in normal science long after they have been extensively falsified, they are only replaced when a better theory emerges,.... and then the process is complex. Kuhn's account of science is a competitive one - differenct co-existing schools developing competing theories that are mutually inconsistent, neither of which are wholly true, and often "incommensurate".....Gleng 09:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not talking about Kuhn's paradigm shifts here, I'm talking about people who advocate, for example, flood geology even after it's shown that in order for the atmosphere to contain that amount of water vapor, no life could have been supported on the Earth. --ScienceApologist 12:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, then that list becomes pretty important. That is where we need to concentrate on verifiable and reliable sourcing. But of course we run into the same problem; if we're going to use examples for each, anything from any field could theoretically go in as an example, i.e. surgery for untestable, etc. right, unless we decide on some kind of line of demarcation? So, either we (1)decide on the line of demarcation, (2)don't use examples, (3)keep doing what we're doing - but keep running into the infighting. Is that a reasonable assessment? --Dematt 20:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

It's an almost perfect assesment, since what is missing from the article is a genuine acknowledgement of the way the term "pseudoscience" is actually applied. That is, it is primarily used as a term of abuse bandied about without much restraint and used against certain fields, indivduals, ideas that some consider (for a variety of reasons) to be beyond the pale. It is as if someone calls someone else an idiot (because they don't like them for all sorts of reasons) and we then try to identify necessary and sufficient conditions for the appropriate application of the term "idiot". Anything we say can clearly be shown to be a trait of many people we don't want to call idiots but we want to use the word nonetheless and don't want to admit that it's really just a term of abuse. Davkal 20:13, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

No, no, no. This analysis is almost completely original research. Pseudoscience is evaluated in introductory science courses as a matter of curriculum! It's not merely a pejorative, it's an actual issue in science education. I'm sorry that the pseudoscientists get offended when evidence is shown that blows their ideas out of the water or their methodology is pointed out to be flawed, but Wikipedia is not supposed to be a love-in or a place where criticism is mitigated. We report what is actually done, and in introductory science classes, what is done is, frankly, demarcation -- despite the fact that this task gets muddied amongst various philosophers of science. --ScienceApologist 20:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, yes, yes (or whatever). God forbid that philosphers of science should be taken seriously on a philosophy of science issue. Far better to leave it to the "introduction to science" teachers. And you shouldn't really confuse original research with things you're merely unfamiliar with (a short explanation of almost exactly my point appears currently in the intro but little is made of it later on).Davkal 20:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

This is NOT just a "philosophy of science issue". It is also an issue of scientific literacy and as such is relevant to the people actually doing science. You are claiming, falsely, that pseudoscience is used almost exclusively as a put-down. I'm pointing out that while people take offense to the pseudoscience label, there are plenty of examples where pseudoscience is used in other contexts. Your attempt to construct a hierarchy of norms between intro science teachers and philosophers of science is silly. We can report both in this article and they will complement each other well. The article can delve both into philosophical issues while explaining what scientists have said about pseudoscience, and it can do both without claiming an objective value-judgement on the term. --ScienceApologist 20:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I think what we may wish to do is look for which subjects are the easiest to demarcate as pseudoscience and begin by discussing those in the article. The list of pseudosciences is a good place to start. Subjects that find themselves closer to that demarcation line we can evaluate on a case-by-case basis with appropriate, cited discussion and criticism. Using the standard skeptical societies as a guideline is a good start since they have a good claim to "word ownership". What is clear to me, however, is that we need to make sure the mainstream evaluations of pseudoscience and declarations to that effect remain. We should not be held hostage by the post-modernist philosophers who throw the baby out with the bathwater with the cry "Demarcation problem! Demarcation problem!" while being supported by psedoscientific rabble-rousers who are offended that anyone could consider their pet idea to be "pseudoscience". --ScienceApologist 20:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

IMO, pseudoscience is a POV term (not "bad", but simply in the sense of WP:POV) and should be treated as such, i.e., in the same way WP treats cult. Many scientists don't even use the term, preferring to comment on evidence, or lack thereof, cf. McNally[1], and Gleng's comment here. best, Jim Butler^(talk) 23:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea how science is taught in American Universities. Over here the principles of scientific method are taught, and in Philosophy courses Popper and Kuhn's ideas are very extensively discussed, and logic is taught. We teach students to evaluate good and bad scientific method, sound and weak reasoning etc. and stress the importance of operational definitions, and here is the problem. Unless the demarcation problem is resolved then there is no agreed operational definition for science, so there can be no objective definition of PS either, hence its use has no "scientific" content. We teach students of science to use strictly definable terms where possible, avoiding potentially vague or ambigious terms with mere emotive content. Gleng 09:52, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I assure Gleng American Universities of high repute (U.C. Berkeley, Stanford, Harvard, Yale) at which I teach the scientific method use Popper's falsifiability criterion as indisputable modification of the original standard, which caused physicists to abandon String Theory (for god's sake), because, if, in principle, a proposition cannot be falsified, it cannot be verified (a logical entailment). But don't tell Wiki's referees about this eminently knighted philosopher of science, much less cite Boyle's scientific method, because they retort NPOV, as if, they're oblivious to "social constructionism" (which, I'm quite sure, they are).

Everyone has a POV. No one acts behind a "veil of ignorance." It's impossible. Thus Wiki's NPOV criterion is FALSE. It's not that one has a POV, it's whether that POV is provable, credible, demonstrable, logically coherent, non-fallacious, by standards known as "evidence" (REASON, EXPERIMENTS, EXPERIENCE), which scientists acknowledge, but not Wiki and its referees. That's why we study logic, reason, science, language, and all those other valuable "tools" we humans have. But Wiki's referees divine, and arbitrate on the basis of "publication," notwithstanding, that more books have been published on astrology, religion, and myths than science ever hopes to compete with. Nevermind the phenomenon of "self-publishing." If it's in print, it meets Wiki's NPOV standards. It's pathetic. Maybe junior college is inadequate to the task of making referees, but three or four courses in any J.C. SHOULD do it. Obviously the NEA has failed us. ````dshsfca````

Well, we have verifiable citations to works which criticize pseudoscience in a wide range of introductory textbooks. I'll remind everyone here that while pseudoscience may be a POV, Wikipedia reports notable POVs that are found in the outside world. The job of Wikipedia is not to right perceived wrongs of society. In Europe, the scientific community is somewhat more accomodating to fringe and pseudoscience than we are in the United States. This is probably due to the fact that in Europe the anti-science perspective is looked at as backwards while there is a significant group of people in the US who actively promote "science bashing" and criticize science itself. Different strokes for different folks, of course. We can report this in the article if someone can dig up some sociology of science citations to this effect. --ScienceApologist 12:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

But here, I think, matters come to a head. Because what can now be seen is that the term "pseudoscience" finds its place in a political, rather than a scientific, arena. That is, the science bashers bash science and the defenders of science respond with sound-bite distinctions that are politically useful but have little actual scientific merit - convenient brushes to tar opponents with but unsustainable from a neutral perspective. When that point is combined with SA's point above that "the standard skeptical societies [...] have a good claim to "word ownership"", and we look at the ideological foundations of those skeptical societies (here, e.g.,[2]), the point becomes clearer still. That certain educators have become part of this political battle should not be taken as evidence for anything other than they have become involved.Davkal 13:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that you all have deliniated POVs that surface on this page. I think a good up-to-the-minute, progressive, online encyclopedia should spend its valuable time presenting this debate rather than making lists from eitherany POV. Am I wrong? --Dematt 13:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Nope, I think you're right on. cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 08:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's parse this

Can we please parse the sentence below (in bold, presented in the second paragraph of the article) so it accurately reflects any relevant point intended to be made? I think the original intent (from around the time of Jon Awbrey's participation) was to state the obvious for the reader, which was, essentially, that someone calling someone else "a liar or a fool" usually results in a rejection of the label by the person being so called. ... Kenosis 16:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

• The term pseudoscience appears to have been first used in 1843 as a combination of the Greek root pseudo, meaning false, and the Latin scientia, meaning knowledge or a field of knowledge. The term has negative connotations, because subjects so labeled are repudiated by skeptics and scientists as being inaccurately or deceptively portrayed as science when in fact the subjects are not. Accordingly, those labeled as practicing or advocating a "pseudoscience" normally reject this classification. ... 16:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

-

I don't see what was wrong with the way it was written before. That is

"The term has negative connotations, because it indicates that subjects so labeled are inaccurately or deceptively portrayed as science. Accordingly, those labeled as practicing or advocating a "pseudoscience" normally reject this classification."

This seems like a perfectly straightforward and important point made perfectly straightforwardly.Davkal 17:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

It also avoids the words "skeptics and scientists" which are weaseling in the sense that they are used here. Taking them out would certainly uncomplicate the issue of which skeptics and how many scientists. --Dematt 19:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Is "repudiated" the best word here? The term has negative connotations, because subjects so labeled are repudiated by skeptics and scientists as being inaccurately or deceptively portrayed as science when in fact the subjects are not. I'm not sure that I like "skeptics and scientists" here either. Something rubs me wrong here grammatically and I can't quite put my finger on it. Anyone else? Levine2112 22:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll be blunt: the sentence is shit. Hence I'm reverting it. It is grammatically wrong on several levels, and to ambiguous with the "skeptics and scientists" bit. •Jim62sch• 22:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

You gone done and writed it good[3]. -Jim Butler^(talk) 01:57, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's roughly how this developed. About 2000 edits ago, the article looked like this. Then in March of this year, about 1800 edits ago, traffic picked up and a significant change was made here. Successive edits of importance to this part of the article's lead occurred here, here, here, and here. I made an adjustment here, which brought the relevant sentence to where it pretty much remained since. Several combinations of the clause that adherents "normally reject this classification" were tried along the way, such as "commonly dispute the claim", "almost always dispute the claim", "typically dispute this classification", "ordinarily reject the classification", etc., and it ended up being stable for about six months with the language quoted by Davkal above. ... Kenosis 22:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Scientific literacy: New minds for a changing world: Paul DeHart Hurd

Hurd's article is available on-line. [4] I think the relevant quote from it is "A scientifically literate person is one who.....Distinguishes science from pseudo-science such as astrology, quackery, the occult and superstition." This is an indication of a rather liberal use of the term pseudoscience to include anything the writer thinks is stupid. Was it meant to include, as superstition, Christianity and other beliefs in the soul?Gleng 17:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Any other source for that article? I am unable to get access with the link provided. Sounds like an interesting point. --Dematt 19:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid someone will need to give up their username and password to access that citation (assuming it's not in violation of their user agreement with the website). Alternately, another method of access to this source will be needed. ... Kenosis 02:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Speaking as an IT Manager: Never, ever, give up your password (or uid if it is not your nick). Never. Not ever. •Jim62sch• 17:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like good advice; my apology. (I've obviously gotten too spoiled with options such as http://www.bugmenot.com . I also see that as a paid subscription, this would be a stretch of fair-use anyway.) Why not just quote the relevant passages or sections then? ... Kenosis 04:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

If someone wants to read a copy of the article, shoot me an e-mail and I'll send it to you. --ScienceApologist 17:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem in WP:AGF with your interpretation. What does he seem to say? --Dematt 03:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Got a copy! IMO, the article makes an argument for the integration of a "lived science into our school curriculums"(meaning things that students view as useful in their everyday lives - rather than just thereoms and useless facts). He makes the point that science has already changed to be useful by industry, etc., but schools have not kept up. He was assweting the position that schools should adapt there methods to create better scientific literacy. The section that SA and Gleng have referenced is:

"Behaviors associated with the production and utilization of science knowledge in human affairs represent the civic basis of scientific literacy. This perception is a blend of the revolutionary changes in the sciences with dimensions of our democracy, social progress, and the adaptive needs of human beings. The elements of a civic concept of scientific literacy represent a consciousness of behaviors that serve as guidelines for interpreting the functions of science/technology in human affairs and the management of one’s life. These behaviors also serve as guidelines for reinventing science curricula in grades K–12, which has been called for in the education reform movement. The following attributes are among others that enable students to adapt to the changing world of science and technology and its impact on personal, social, and economic affairs. Thus, a scientifically literate person is one who:

• Distinguishes experts from the uninformed.
• Distinguishes theory from dogma, and data from myth and folklore. *Recognizes that almost every fact of one’s life has been influenced in one way or another by science/technology.
• Knows that science in social contexts often has dimensions in political, judicial, ethical, and sometimes moral interpretations.
• Senses the ways in which scientific research is done and how the findings are validated.
• Uses science knowledge where appropriate in making life and social decisions, forming judgments, resolving problems, and taking action.
• Distinguishes science from pseudo-science such as astrology, quackery, the occult, and superstition.
• Recognizes the cumulative nature of science as an “endless frontier.”
• Recognizes scientific researchers as producers of knowledge and citizens as users of science knowledge.
• Recognizes gaps, risks, limits, and probabilities in making decisions involving a knowledge

of science or technology.

• Knows how to analyze and process information to generate knowledge that extends beyond

facts.

• Recognizes that science concepts, laws, and theories are not rigid but essentially have an

organic quality; they grow and develop; what is taught today may not have the same meaning tomorrow.

• Knows that science problems in personal and social contexts may have more than one “right”

answer, especially problems that involve ethical, judicial, and political actions.

• Recognizes when a cause and effect relationship cannot be drawn. Understands the importance

of research for its own sake as a product of a scientist’s curiosity.

• Recognizes that our global economy is largely influenced by advancements in science and technology.
• Recognizes when cultural, ethical, and moral issues are involved in resolving science–social problems.
• Recognizes when one does not have enough data to make a rational decision or form a reliable

judgment.

• Distinguishes evidence from propaganda, fact from fiction, sense from nonsense, and knowledge from opinion.
• Views science–social and personal–civic problems as requiring a synthesis of knowledge from different fields including natural and social sciences.
• Recognizes there is much not known in a science field and that the most significant discovery may be announced tomorrow.
• Recognizes that scientific literacy is a process of acquiring, analyzing, synthesizing, coding, evaluating, and utilizing achievements in science and technology in human and social contexts.
• Recognizes the symbiotic relationships between science and technology and between science, technology, and human affairs.
• Recognizes the everyday reality of ways in which science and technology serve human adaptive capacities, and enriches one’s capital.
• Recognizes that science–social problems are generally resolved by collaborative rather than individual action.
• Recognizes that the immediate solution of a science–social problem may create a related problem later.
• Recognizes that short- and long-term solutions to a problem may not have the same answer.

These science literacy characteristics are not taught directly but are embedded in a lived curriculum where students are engaged in resolving problems, making investigations, or developing projects. Supporting laboratory and field experiences are viewed as exercises in citizenship. As teachers we need to recognize constantly that public understanding of science is conceptually different from the traditional forms embedded in the structure of science disciplines." --Dematt 18:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

That's fine and good, but the edit you put in seriously disrupted the explanation of the context which is why the source is offered. It is clear that Hurd is advocating for scientific literacy in part as a repudiation of pseudoscience. Trying to say what Hurd's main purpose of the paper is incidental to this point. --ScienceApologist 22:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I see where I muddied the water? I agree that Hurd was advocating scientific literacy as a repudiation of pseudoscience. All I did was clarify that it was not a research paper and added the occult. The entire paragraph concerned science education, Hurd fit right in. What was the muddy part? --Dematt 22:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It was a summary of ideas based on research, the paper itself was a review. Adding the occult is unnecessary as it is covered by superstition. Your edit just made the sentence nearly impossible to understand within the context of the introduction and the paragraph. --ScienceApologist 23:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Still, "According to science education research" is overreaching. It makes it sound like there is consensus among scientists and science educators about the meaning of the term "pseudoscience". Perhaps this is an improvement. (I have a graduate degree in chemistry and don't recall ever hearing the term used by my teachers. We talked about stuff like evidence and reasoning instead.) thx, Jim Butler^(talk) 00:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you're on the right track. --Dematt 01:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks and a clarification: I don't mean to give aid and comfort to those whom I think really are attempting to subvert science and reason a la wedge strategy. (That would be sort of analogous to tolerance taken too far, i.e. tolerating intolerance itself.) In general, my primary quibble with SA's otherwise perfectly fine line of thinking is that pedagogically, it appears easier to find consensus on what science is than what pseudoscience is.

Also, as I've argued before, labelling topics in psychology and medicine as pseudoscience is hazardous territory given the complexity of the variables one must measure. Too often the "conclusions" section of a paper overreaches the "evidence" section, as when failure to replicate a phenomenon is taken to "disprove" that phenomenon (e.g., facilitated communication, where the majority/doubting view has used the dreaded PS-term mostly as an epithet). Excellent article relating to these issues from Harvard Prof. Martha Herbert here. Parsing such nuances requires unrelenting intellectual honesty and rigor. (/soapbox) cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 08:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Citing accurately

Because the word PS can be used either indiscriminately (as a pejorative) or with attempted precision (as Popper attempted), and in mutually inconsistent ways, it seems important to be precise in citation. Hurd uses the word PS to embrace, specifically, the occult, superstition and quackery, and not to make that clear would be to miscite him, particularly because elsewhere in the present article it is clear that a precise use of the term pseudoscience would exclude all of these -and to include the Occult as pseudoscience would probably entail including all religion. The Occult is a necessary inclusion in any cite, as this makes clear that Hurd is embracing religious beliefs as pseudoscience. This is Hurd's only use of the word, to stretch his meaning beyond what he said would be a speculative inference.

In psychology, as in all fields of science, the word pseudoscientific is part of the armamentorium of internal criticism (though seldom in the peer reviewed scientific literature, which generally prefers terms with operational definitions); the holder of one position may say that an alternative is pseudoscientific, meaning variously that the terms are ill defined, or the position is logically unsound, or that the argument is irremedially obscure. Sometimes this is a "straw man" position to delineate the conflicts, sometimes a serious criticism - but just as Medawar declared with rigor and vigor that every scientific paper is a fraud, there is little sense in treating arguments within a field as though they were somehow criticisms of the field, for intelligible external consumption. However, psychology is relevant for one good reason - it was chosen as one of the three canonical examples of unfalsifiable theories by Popper, who was the first to attempt a rigorous use of PS. The University of Maryland curriculum by the way uses PS in the title but the description makes no further use of it.

How any of these arguments can give comfort to those who choose to believe nonsense is beyond me. If nonsense cannot be countered by cool rigor, careful analysis, and clear thinking, but needs to be branded by emotive labels with no intellectual content, then maybe it's not nonsense after all.Gleng 10:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Gleng, the problem with your edit is that in attempting to mitigate the use of the term "pseudoscience", you introduced a slant that claims that pseudoscience is poorly considered. While you submit that there is no definition of pseudoscience that is adequate, this quibble has no bearing on the sentences you editted. There is plenty of text elsewhere in the article which deals with this, but you failed to take the cites at their word which is that they are discussing the perils of pseudoscience. Trying to argue against these cites in the fashion you did by saying that they are somehow not giving good enough definitions for what they are fighting against is injecting original research. --ScienceApologist 13:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

? How can using the author's own words instead ogf yours be injecting my POV exactly? This is the only use of the term in the article, and at least we should respect the possibility that the author meant exactly what he said. I think it is OR to go beyond that and infer that the author actually meant more than he said. Gleng 16:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I hate to butt in here where I haven't been following the current history of the debate, but using precise quotes is often the best way to avoid accusations of OR and POV editing. When properly sourced, the case stands stronger. FWIW. -- Fyslee 16:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Glad to see I wasn't the only one confused by that. --Dematt 17:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Precise quotes are not a good idea for lead. And the selection of precise quotes detracted from the main point of the sentence (which is to say that pseudoscience is to be eschewed in order to gain scientific literacy). Insisting on including the quote because it illustrates the author's definition of pseudoscience is beyond the scope of the article and the reason the quote was included in the first place. Such an analysis would be better placed in an article about the person himself. --ScienceApologist 18:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

It may well be that trying to cover science education is a bit too much for the lead. ... Kenosis 19:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Precise quotes are better than misquotes; it's only a few words, but their importance seems as clear to SA as to me. I agree with Kenosis; in the UK, science education here focuses on distinguishing good science from bad science, - the reasons not the labels, but I accept it may be different elsewhere. Hurd's inclusion of the occult is telling; where a word can be used to mean different things it seems important to be clear about how it is being used in any report of its use. In particular, it's important to distinguish between the scientific/philosophical issues and populist usage. It may well be appropriate to adopt a populist (pejorative) usage in an introductory science class; but unless the usage is distinguished the serious issues will get muddled. A "scientific" rather than a "pseudoscientific" use of the term requires an operational definition, or it becomes a mere label of distaste. I have a distaste for pseudoscientific arguments of all kinds, as I imagine everyone on this page does, but labels don't do the work of reason for us.Gleng 19:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree re the quotes, but I also agree with Kenosis. When I go to a restaurant I want a drink first, not a roast suckling pig slapped on the table. •Jim62sch• 23:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, drink... pig.... definitely drink. I say drink. --Dematt 01:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Pig... drink.... perhaps a compromise is possible? Seriously, yeah, agree w/ paring the lead a bit and covering more below. -Jim Butler^(talk) 06:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S. - meant to add, agree w/ Gleng above re operational definitions. - Jim Butler^(talk) 17:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

So, per the Pork Soda method, 1) put pig in a big blender, 2) empty contents into large vessel, 3) put into centrifuge to sort out bones, intestines, etc., 4) boil contents so no one gets sick, 5) add seasoning so no one throws up from the taste, 6) carbonate; makes 100 eight-ounce servings ... maybe this analogy has reached its practical limit of utility? Actually, in my comment above, I was mainly just wondering whether recent discussion of "pseudoscience" in science education might deserve a separate section in the article rather than attempting to deal with controversial pedagogy in the introduction. In the last half of the 20th Century, in general, scientific method is taught in keeping with whatever the discipline is, while pseudoscience is merely acknowledged as one form of the category of non-science without further qualification in the texts. In general, it hasn't been the educator's job to teach students what pseudoscience is, but rather to stick to teaching students appropriate method in their particular discipline--chemists learn one set of methods, biologists another, phsyicists another, experimental psychologists yet another, each of which is currently accepted in their own area of inquiry based on past successes. And it's left to "philosophers of science" to integrate it all, if they think they can. And as we already know, philosophers of science have been unsuccessful in attempts to arrive at a clear solution to the demarcation problem; though the AAAS has made nice progress in developing guidelines in recent years. So to whatever extent the term "pseudoscience" may be used in any of the recent texts on method, it is relatively very new. Maybe a brief section in the article on recent trends in science education involving the use of the word "pseudoscience" might be appropriate? ... Kenosis 17:13, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Now we're getting to the marrow of the matter (porcine metaphor exhausted?). Yes, Kenosis, agree with your ideas; cult has some good approaches on presenting POV's. best regards, Jim Butler^(talk) 17:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

That would certainly make sense and set the stage for the rational debate of the issues. --Dematt 19:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Norcross

Let's discuss this before adding it. This is what I found... no clear mention of Pseudoscience.

A new study surveyed psychologists and other mental health professionals about their knowledge and views on whether certain treatments have been discredited, and the results are provocative. The subjects rated 59 treatments and 30 assessment techniques on a continuum from "not at all discredited" to "certainly discredited."

The upper tier of discredited treatments included Angel, Orgone, Rebirthing, and Primal Scream therapies. Some techniques that fell into the mid-range included Freudian dream interpretation, catharsis for anger disorders, Scared Straight programs for criminal offenders, and DARE programs for substance-abuse prevention. The bottom tier, which represents more credible treatments included EMDR, behavioral therapy for sex offenders, and psychosocial treatment of ADHD. The most discredited assessments included Graphology, the Szondi test, and the Luscher Color Test for personality.

The authors made sure to note that all of this should interpreted with caution since it is simply an exploratory analysis and that many subjects were not familiar with details of each treatment. However, this does provide fasinating documentation about the status of varoius therapies and treatment approaches in the field, and ideally consumers can gain access to this sort of information to guide therapeutic decision making.

Norcross, Koocher, & Garofalo (2006). Discredited psychological treatments and tests: A Delphi poll. Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 37(5), 515-522.

I just don't think qualifies a s agood source of what is a pseudoscience, especially with the author warning to be cautious when interpreting this study. Any other toughts here? Levine2112 06:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Levine2112. The whole article is about pseudoscience. They listed 59 or so theories that have been identified by other peer reviewed sources as pseudoscientific, and then they determined using a rigorous empirically sound poll which ones were definitely discredited. Similar to other peer reviewed literature on similar subjects, they use the terms quackery, and pseudoscience. So Gleng, yourself, or anyone else who keeps badgering for a dismissal of those terms or articles has just bit the dust on that argument yet again. Levine2112, contrary to your statements, you have clearly not read the article. You have also not clearly read NPOV policy. Look under the heading - a simple formulation. This article is a survey - published in a peer reviewed journal, published by eminent profs. It will inevitably be included in this article. KrishnaVindaloo 06:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Whoa. Take it easy. This isn't a personal attack, so don't turn it on me like that. This is the kind of thing that got you in trouble last time. I am questioning the edit and not the editor, so please don't make this personal.

Now then... no, I haven't read the article. Nor did I claim to. I did find a summary which doesn't mention Pseudoscience. It also mentions a tier system which I think is important.

Can you provide us a link to the article? This way I and others can read it. And/or can you provide us with a direct quote from this source which uses the term pseudoscience so we can see how it is being used... since that is most operative to this article.

And if we decide to reintroduce this, can you please try to be consistent and match the ref footnote method that everyone else has employed here? Thanks again and please don't take this personally. Stay calm and let's discuss this rationally and cooperatively. Levine2112 07:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I found an abstract for this: [5] Note that this study is not about labeling things as pseudoscientific but rather to discredit/credit the value of certain therapies in terms of mental health. I really think it is a stretch to include this here. However, please feel free to defend it being here in an article that is about Pseudoscience. Levine2112 07:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Norcross on page 515 says that several authors have attempted to identify pseudoscientific psychotherapies. They site Lilienfeld, Carroll, Sala, Eisner, and Singer. Norcross then says that this present study is an addition to that effort. Of course pseudoscientific and discredited are the same in Norcross et al's judgment in this respect. In the conclusion of the study - page 522, Norcross et al state that "We have made progress in diferrentiating science from pseudoscience". They also say they have made a cogent step in identifying the quack factor of modern mental health practice. Its crystal clear that the article concludes that those 14 listed are very very pseudoscientific. This PS article could do with some information on the issue of the relationship between what is considered pseudoscientific (has PS aspects), and what is considered most definitely discredited. The Norcross article is perfect for this PS article. KrishnaVindaloo 08:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Please provide a reference for us to click so we can read this for ourselves. -- Fyslee 14:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello Fyslee. The ref is in the ref section under Norcross. You will not have much luck clicking on it as it is not linked to anything. Its a fresh reference and it corroborates many of the scientific editors on Wikipedia when we say that sources such as Lilienfeld, Carroll, Quackwatch, Mind Myths, etc, are all about identifying pseudoscience when they say something is dubious, quackery, or discredited. KrishnaVindaloo 14:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Since the [abstract is all that we have, this is the pertanent section:

• Here's the abstract: "In the context of intense interest in evidence-based practice (EBP), the authors sought to establish consensus o­n discredited psychological treatments and assessments using Delphi methodology. A panel of 101 experts participated in a 2-stage survey, reporting familiarity with 59 treatments and 30 assessment techniques and rating these o­n a continuum from not at all discredited to certainly discredited. The authors report their composite findings as well as significant differences that occurred as a function of the experts' gender and theoretical orientation. The results should be interpreted carefully and humbly, but they do offer a cogent first step in consensually identifying a continuum of discredited procedures in modern mental health practice."

• According to the article: "For the specific purpose listed, experts considered as certainly discredited 14 psychological treatments: angel therapy, use of pyramid structures, orgone therapy, crystal healing, past lives therapy, future lives therapy, treatments for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) caused by alien abduction, rebirthing therapies, color therapy, primal scream, chiropractic manipulation, thought field therapy, standard prefrontal lobotomy, and aroma therapy. Another 11 treatments were consensually designated as probably discredited (mean rating of 4.0 or greater), including Erhard Seminar Training (EST) and age-regression methods, for various specific purposes."

• Regarding tests, the article states: "Five tests rated by at least 25% of the experts in terms of being discredited for a specific purpose received mean scores of 4.0 or higher: Lscher Color Test, Szondi Test, handwriting analysis (graphology), Bender Visual Motor Gestalt Test (for assessment of neuropsychological impairment), eneagrams, and Lowenfeld Mosaic Test."

No mention of pseudoscience, just procedures that were discredited for the use as psychological therapies. No duh. Maybe this can be used under the psychology article. --Dematt 16:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Dematt. The article specifically states the term pseudoscience several times and talks about the difference between science and pseudoscience. The research is an important part of the effort to root out what is science and pseudoscience in psychology. I can see why you would not want it in the article though. Is there any particular part of it which you don't like to be mentioned? Would you state it differently? Because articles are composed of more than abstracts. They have abstracts, introductions, literature reviews, methods, results, discussions and conclusions. In this case the conclusion discusses the improvement in distinguishing science from pseudoscience. I am most interested in improving this article, and would like there to be at least some mention of this recent vast improvement in distinguishing science from pseudoscience. Would you like it if the term - chiropractic - was not mentioned? KrishnaVindaloo 16:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think chiropractic is the issue here (though your insistence to include it in this article has been noted). The issue is that Norcross is not calling these 14 disciplines pseudoscience; but rather discrediting their application to mental health by mere survey (asking experts how they feel about something). Drawing a link to how these experts feel and declaring something to be pseudoscience is a slippery slope and it would seem that even Norcross agrees that this survey should be interpreted with caution since it was simply an exploratory analysis and that many of the experts on the panel were not entirely familiar with each treatment. Pseudoscience is a very serious pejorative label to slap on something and therefore we shouldn't be reckless with its application... most especially in this article. Levine2112 17:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Krishna, I wouldn't be surprised if they do mention pseudoscience, nor am I questioning whether what is written might apply, it's just a question of verifiability. You have repeatedly expected us to just take your word for what's in a book or other source you're quoting, but we don't always have access to it, and we've become wary of your use of sources. We would like to check the context. I'm in agreement with your basic position, but your use of sources and your manner of expecting us to just believe you is unsatisfactory. If you'd find sources that are available on the internet it would be much easier, and we wouldn't have so many of these discussions. Your edits would also "stick" more often. Another matter is your use of references. Please format them so they become embedded links, and include the URL as much as possible. Just copy the style others use. I'm sure you can learn it. -- Fyslee 18:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Fyslee. You are under an obligation to assume good faith. KrishnaVindaloo 04:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Levine2112, "declaring something to be pseudoscience is a slippery slope." Yes, that's true in the Norcross study, and in this context to do so in the article would indeed create an NPOV issue. The issue here at Wikipedia is not what is or is not pseudoscience. We don't "declare something to be pseudoscience" in the article. That isn't the job of the article. It is to provide information about the subject and the principles involved in how to identify pseudoscience, as well as to provide examples of various POV on what are considered pseudoscience by various people, etc.. Providing examples of how people or groups "declare something to be pseudoscience" must be done in an NPOV manner, IOW identify it as their POV. Then it becomes NPOV and can be included. -- Fyslee 18:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, and we have to use verifiable and reliable sources. Discrediting something for a specific use is not the same thing as calling it pseudoscience. Imagine if they would have included Motrin in that list. I'm sure it would be discredited for use for psychological treatments as well, but that doesn't mean we can re-arrange the words to call it a pseudoscience. --Dematt 18:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This PS article is not just about saying who thinks what is PS. We are here to report all relevant views on issues of pseudoscience. The Norcross et al article is a new piece of research in the science and pseudoscience stream. It is relevant because it determines pseudoscientific and very pseudoscientific subjects by looking at whether they are certainly discredited, probably discredited, possibly discredited etc. It states explicitly the pseudoscience term in several places, it lists texts that identify pseudoscientific subjects, and it says that it takes an even more specific line by identifying what people believe are certainly discredited (pseudoscientific subjects that certainly do not work). As you may have noticed, all of the subjects listed in the 14 are recognizably pseudoscientific. It is obvious. Assume good faith. The bottom line: The article is about solving the science pseudoscience problem by looking at what is discredited. It belongs in the PS article. KrishnaVindaloo 04:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

But it is all in terms of psychology and we still don't know whether or not the paper actually calls these practices pseudoscientific in relation to psychology. I just don't see how this paper is truly relavent to this article... perhaps tangentially or maybe marginally relavent, but not enough to include it here. Levine2112 04:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Levine2112 and others. It would help if you bothered to look up the research for yourselves before prejudging it or myself (again). As far as I can tell, nobody apart from myself has bothered to do so. I have pretty much already come to the conclusion that the majority of editors here should probably not be editing here at all. Assumption of good faith is a prerequisite according to policy, especially if you can't be bothered to do the research, and especially if you are a proponent of something that is being discredited. I repeat: The Norcross article is the latest in the science pseudoscience psychology stream. They approach the research problem (how to deal with the science pseudoscience problem/demarcation) by identifying subjects that are definitely discredited according to a survey of experts. So it can read something like: "Norcross et al state that Lilienfeld and co have sought to identify pseudoscientific subjects in clinical psychology. Norcross et al take a more specific approach by identifying what is specifically discredited according to experts". The offer to exclude the chiropractic term is still open. For a limited period of 3 hours only. If there are no takers on that offer within 3 hours, I will assume that you are all happy to include the chiropractic term in the list, and it will be presented. After 3 hours, the offer closes permanently. KrishnaVindaloo 07:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

And after three hours, three days, or three years, your edits will get deleted and you will have wasted our time once again. I don't doubt that the article is relevant, just provide it for us. We don't all have the ability to access it like you apparently can, and until you provide us with the article so we can check the context, we are skeptical. Your history here is questionable enough to make your attempts to force us to assume good faith rather pathetic. And for you to make demands is even more ludicrous. You, of all people, is in no position to judge who is or is not qualified to be an editor here. Because of you, and you alone, a lot of good things you have presented here have been removed from my possible use as a skeptic, merely because of your misuse and your bad reputation here. I find that quite regretable. You make skeptics look bad. -- Fyslee 07:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Fyslee. I am under zero obligation to you to provide the actual source material in full. Indeed I would probably be contravening laws if I did so. You however, are under absolute obligation to assume good faith. I have been accused of lying so I will redouble my honesty. I do not consider myself a skeptic and I have said so many times. I believe skeptics already have a bad name and I would not be one of them. I do use scientific skepticism though, and I use it properly. It is my conclusion that many here should not be editing. That is my conclusion. I am free to express that conclusion. I come to that conclusion based upon the fact that a lot of editors here choose consensus over NPOV policy, choose not to assume good faith by default, and choose to make up rules concerning the provision of source material. I have provided ample information to prove that Norcross is relevant, as is the list of 14 discredited pseudoscientific subjects. If you think that looks bad, then I question your ability to adhere to NPOV policy. I hereby retract the offer to exclude chiropractic from the list. KrishnaVindaloo 07:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

KV, again, I don't think this about chiropractic (however, I do admit that its inclusion alerted me to the edit). But after further research, I feel that the source is still only minimally releavant to Pseudoscience. I certainly can be wrong as I have not read but a summary and excerpts from the source. If you can please explain where we can get it or where you are getting it, then perhaps we can access it lawfully. I certainly wouldn't want you to break the law. Please also explain why this is a legal issue. Do you only have a hard copy? From what publication? Do you have it from an online source which required purchase or membership?

Your latest edit is this: Norcross et al (2006:517) have approached the science/pseudoscience issue by conducting a survey of experts that seeks to specify which pseudoscientific theory or therapy is considered to be definitely discredited, and they outline 14 fields that have been definitely discredited.

From just the limited information you are allowing us to have on Norcross, this statement appears to be a violation of WP:OR. The summary nor the excerpts which I have seen don't mention pseudoscience at all; specifically that don't claim that this survey was used to discredit pseudoscientific theories or therapies. From what I have seen, this survey merely questioned a panel of experts of what they thought about the validity of certain therapies in relation to mental health... nothing more. To interpret more is an OR violation and Norcross itself even warns against interpretation.

There is really nothing else I can say - other than please learn the footnote ref system (your stubborness to comply is really frustrating). Until I can read Norcross in full, I can't accept the conclusions which you are purporting it makes. Levine2112 17:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

KV's inability to collaborate with other editors

Like it or not, you are obligated to collaborate with all editors here, including those who (unlike myself) hold opposing POV. If you fail to collaborate, your edits will not stick, no matter how well made, well sourced, NPOV, etc., etc.. Collaborative editing is what makes Wikipedia function, and in practice it takes precedence over all policies. The best NPOV edit will fail to survive if it isn't done in a collaborative manner. That's life. Until you realize that, you are wasting your own and our time. If you don't have the respect of other editors, you may as well play somewhere else. -- Fyslee 10:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Unreal -- I walked away from this article a month ago and the same issues are still here(?!?). KV has still not learned to play well with others, I see. And I note that he keeps on espousing AGF even though he'd given ample reason to suspend AGF in his case months ago. Unreal. •Jim62sch• 11:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Jim62sch. Neither you, Fyslee, or anyone else has ever shown any evidence of me lying. The only evidence presented showed people attacking me using the term "pathalogical liar" using racist slurs, and generally refusing to accept my edits were supported by peer reviewed sources. Those sources and edits can still be presented according to NPOV policy. You have no choice but to assume good faith. KrishnaVindaloo 11:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Fyslee. I made every attempt to discuss and was met with a failure on your part to assume good faith, and a strange non-NPOV requirement to provide full source material. I have fulfilled NPOV policy on providing sources and explaining the research, and I have compromised way beyond what is normally required. If you don't like me telling the truth about you making up rules as you go along, or you failing to assume good faith, then don't push the point. I am always ready to collaborate with other editors and have shown a consistent effort to discuss. If you have a problem with me personally, then feel free to contact me on my talk page and stop wasting editor's bandwidth complaining about me here. KrishnaVindaloo 11:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

KV, if you are ready to collaborate then please provide us with Norcross in full. Or if this is not legally feasible, then please tell us how we can access it legally. Further, you would approach collaboration better if you were to follow the footnote ref format which this article employs. We have been asking you to do this for months upons months now. At this point I can assume you are being stubborn - not collaborative - with this very minor formating issue.

Two simple requests for you to fullfill. The ball is in your court to now show us your collaborative spirit.Levine2112 17:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course, I am happy to help you out. Simply deal with it in the same way that all other editors deal with this kind of issue. Assume good faith and accept the fact without reading anything, or go to a library and look up the information for yourself. Any other questions? KrishnaVindaloo 20:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Why are you being purposefully difficult? Clearly you have access to this material, so what's the problem with showing it to us or point us to it? This is not cooperative/collaborative behaviour you are demonstrating. Levine2112 20:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I have cooperatively given you the source reference. If you want to find it for yourself, go right ahead. I am not standing in your way. I do not expect you or any other editor to supply me or anyone else with source material for all the things you want to write in articles of interest to you. You obviously don't have enough information from your web search of Norcross. It is pathetically lacking. So to remedy that you will have to do some legwork and look it up for yourself. Sorry, but thats just the way it is done. Stick to NPOV policy and assume good faith. I have already logged a lot of instances of people not assuming good faith here. That will all be very useful for arbitration applications. Thank you. KrishnaVindaloo 21:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

By making others go through the legwork when you already have the source, you are demonstating your lack of desire to be cooperative. We have simply asked you to provide us with the source material or the means to access it ourselves. You have refursed to do so. Your attitude has been noted. So don't be surpirsed if others treat you with the same courtesy you have demonstrated here time and time again. Levine2112 21:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I already said that I didn't expect any such thing. I will explain something very helpful about Wikipedia policies on verifiability. Verifiable means that it can be verified. It does not mean that you have to verify it. I provided reliable and verifiable information. That is all I need to do. I don't mind spoonfeeding you info on Wikipedia policy, but you cannot demand that other editors spoonfeed you source material and then expect them to take you seriously. KrishnaVindaloo 21:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Why are you being stubborn about this? I am simply making a request. I would very much like to read this research. You have access to it and I am asking you in the spirit of cooperation to provide me with the means to do so. Why won't you be helpful? Levine2112 21:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It is not at all within my power to scan the document and send it to you. I have neither the capability, nor the need. You can go and get it for yourself very easily. Now stop badgering and stop pretending that it is a requirement to send other editors texts that they should be looking up themselves. KrishnaVindaloo 04:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Just asking for a little help, man. No badgering nor pretending. Which publication did you get it from? That's all. In the meantime, can you provide us with a direct quote here that verifies the statements about its relevancy to this article? Thanks. Levine2112 04:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Levine2112. You are badgering. I have provided all the information you demand already on the article. You just deleted it. KrishnaVindaloo 06:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC) BTW, Levine2112. This information will also help improve the chiropractic, psychology, and many other articles. In fact I have a lot of NPOV compliant details from other reliable and verifiable sources that I can add to the chiropractic article to help you out. You have absolutely no need to go into the consensus issue over that either because like the Norcross information, it is NPOV compliant, and NPOV policy trumps consensus. Would you like me to go into detail about those facts? I am happy to spend years maintaining those facts to help improve Wikipedia. KrishnaVindaloo 06:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Why are you dodging this simple request? Levine2112 17:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Missing information

I've added a missing information tag on the "pseudoscience in psychology" this is missing a reply from those who feel that they have been inappropriately marginalized by evidence-based academics and psychologists. There seems to be some tension between practitioners in the field and the researchers. I believe it is referred to as the widening research-practitioner gap. There is also a tension between the more directive behavioral approaches (eg. CBT) and the humanistic (soft) approaches to research in psychotherapy. It appears that proponents of the more behavioral psychotherapies have referred to underpinnings of the softer psychotherapies. Proponents of these softer approaches would proabably say their methods are too complex to be studied using a scientific reductionist logic. These are significant disagreements that should be described in the article. --Comaze 14:28, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Orthorexia nervosa

I added this earlier today and it was removed; I would simply have reverted the deletions, but other people have since changed this article, so there was a bit of double work on my part. Let me explain why the wiki link belongs here so this doesn't happen again, unless the majority believes I'm clearly off the mark on this one.

Orthorexia nervosa is an "eating disorder" in which the "victim" only eats healthy foods.

ON ( for short ) was invented by an MD in Colorrado, never put to any type of experimentation, or any type of peer review process. The theory ( which states that 6.9 % of the public suffers this disorder ) is based on personal observation, and nothing else. There is in fact some evidence that the idea's founder cointed the term to mock the concept of the workaholic, but this is debated.

In other words, the notion claims to be scientific, and may fool the layman, but there's no basis in the scientifc method.

FireWeed 05:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

This seems to be OR. If you can find a citation claiming ON is pseudoscience, fine (though it sounds pretty damned obscure and not particularly worth noting in an article on pseudoscience). If not, then clearly it should be omitted. Phiwum 12:27, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I put a similar note on this user's talk page about this. And you are right, Phiwum, it does seem too obscure to be placed here. Levine2112 18:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Bad Spelling in "Boiler-Plate"

There is a "caution" blob on this page "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Diamond-caution.svg" with which the word "counselor" is misspelled with 2 "l"'s, but I cannot find a way to edit that text. Maybe some more agile wiki-editor can do so. Carrionluggage 01:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Done. Good catch, thanks! BTW, did you know you spelled "carry on" wrong? :) --Dematt 03:59, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Back to testability...

I really think the topic of testability is too large to be included as it is in the intro statement. Although it is true that "they do not adhere to the testability requirement of the scientific method", that is certainly not one of the defining features. As SA has pointed out, it's not the testability that's the problem, it's the response to the tests, when carried out, that generally defines a pseudoscience.

More to the point, I think the statement below is a much clearer set of definitions: "Pseudosciences may be characterised by the use of vague, exaggerated or untestable claims, over-reliance on confirmation rather than refutation, lack of openness to testing by other experts, and a lack of progress in theory development."

I propose moving that statement up to the intro para, removing the current statement, and covering the testability requirements in the existing section, one paragraph down. I really don't think we're doing anyone a service by putting this potentially misleading statement so early in the document where it cannot be properly explained.

Maury 20:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Most of Astronomy has the same problem of testability. A young n***a from da street 01:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Popper

Popper maen Karl Popper, the edit has wikilinked reference. Do we have to quote what is already in here ? Nasz 12:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Pseudoscience in Religion and Ideology

I added George W. Bush, but I feel slightly inconvenient putting him in the same paragraph as Nazi Germany and Stalin Sovjet. Whatever the qualities of GWB, I dislike seeing USA mentioned in the same paragraph as Nazi Germany and Stalin Sovjet. If anyone can make a better formulation, I would be the first to agree. Rursus 10:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Probably would be good just to add more examples to avoid too appearance of "guilt by association"; haven't got time but sectstub'd it. thx, Jim Butler^(talk) 06:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I have removed this section because it is too biased against religion and politically charged for an encyclopedic article. However, by all means if someone can try it again without it being so biased, by all means do so. Olorin0222 16:57, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

What's the problem here? I assume you are only objecting against the Bush part. But which part of that statement you doubt? --Pjacobi 17:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Bizarre use of this page

Regulars at this page are invited to comment on what I consider a bizarre use of its definitions at Scientific data archiving. This page has been started by a naive enthusiast and defended by... well. It needs help, anyway. The core is perhaps in this revert [6] - does failure to archive data automatically make a paper psuedoscienc? William M. Connolley 19:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

That is partly the fault of the way this article on pseudoscience is written. The definition doesn't address the heart of the concept and is too broad. As a result, there are those who want to use the term to include anything they disagree with - and this article is so broad it lets them do that. The objects of study in psychology and in philosophy are often not visible - so the choice is to throw out any lines of inquiry in that area or be labeled as dabbling in pseudoscience. This term, pseudoscience, should be reserved for clear cases of attempting to dress up beliefs as if they are science when they clearly are not - like astrology. And all the close calls should be considered demarcation issues where the argument should be "good theory vs bad theory" and not get into name-calling that just diminishes the integrity of the term "pseudoscience".

For example, suppose there was a lot of bad research on the issue of climate change (which appears to be the case and not a surprise given the political intensity and money involved). Some of the bad research could be sloppy, some could be dishonest, but none of it pseudoscience. Pseudoscience would be the claim that astrology had the true answer to the future of climate all along. Steve 21:19, 22 March 2007 (U

Hear, hear! There is a difference between bad science and pseudoscience. Of course, there are gray areas (intelligent design might plausibly be called either), but this is the viewpoint that we should adopt. It is also the usual use of the term in philosophy of science. Phiwum 15:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It appears some of the editors here need to read the definitions and citations more closely. If a researcher acts like he is doing science but refuses to provide the information needed for others to test or reproduce the study, that cannot be called "bad science," because it cannot be called science at all. Here is a quote from a commonly used textbook:

Publically Verifiable Knowledge

The second principle involves the public nature of scientific knowledge. Knowledge gathered empirically does not exist solely in the mind of the scientist. In fact, it does not exist at all until the person disseminates it to the scientific community for critique, testing, and replicating of results. Knowledge or findings limited to one person or group and not verified can never have the status of scientific knowledge (Dawes, 2001). The person or group must present such findings to the scientific community in a way that others can achieve the same results. This process ensures that a particular finding is not the result of bias or error. [7]RonCram 00:51, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Hugh Gauch, following the AAAS in his book Scientific Method in Practice (2002), also rightly empasizes the importance of full disclosure in scientific method. No "wizards behind the curtain" allowed, at least not without being excluded from consideration as practicing science in any reasonably modern sense of the word. ... Kenosis 02:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Kenosis, yes - openness is important to keep science advancing. I have written the first draft of an article Scientific data withholding which discusses the policies of the research funding institutions and journals. It also discusses some of the studies of the problem and some claims of data withholding. I hope you will take a look and make the article better.RonCram 00:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Kenosis, William Connelly has nominated Scientific data withholding for deletion. The main reason seems to be the way the article treats the data withholding case of Michael Mann. William and Michael are both contributors or partners in a website called RealClimate. According to WP:COI, I have asked William to consider if he is too close to Mann and the subject climate science to objectively consider the facts. All of the facts around the Mann case are accurate and well-sourced. William cannot say they are not, so he had to resort to an attempt to delete the article. Please take a look and cast your vote as well.RonCram 15:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Pseudosciences that became sciencies

Did some pseudosciences, like the continental theory, turn into real sciences? Let me doubt this statement. An hypotethical theory, which still has not been verified nor refuted, doesnt mean it is a pseudoscience: pseudoscientific theories and statements , actually, cannot be verified nor refuted. And theories such as the continental derive can be eventually proved to be true or false.

pseudoscience is a term of abuse used by the establishment to disparage new ideas and as a barrier of entry to new scientists. Think Galileo - an obvious psuedo-scientist! A young n***a from da street 01:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, indeed it can happen, if only rarely; continental drift is probably the most famous case of a theory almost universally thought to be nonsense by mainstream scientists that was eventually accepted into the canon of scientific belief. Continental drift earned its acceptance in the traditional way; by the presentation of compelling experimental evidence of its reality.

For every theory such as continental drift that is later demonstrated to be a valid hypothesis, there are hundreds that are not, and they share one thing in common; an inability to present convincing evidence that meets the criteria of the scientific method.

Implausibility, of itself, has never been a barrier to eventual scientific acceptance -- consider quantum mechanics and general relativity, both of which violate the assumptions of normal human common sense. Even today, the theory of evolution struggles to find universal acceptance outside of the scientific world -- again, for the reason that it offends many people's "common sense", based on their observations in everyday life that cats never turn into dogs and monkeys never turn into people. All of these theories initially met resistance within the scientific community, but did not have the same problems as continental drift.

The remarkable thing about science is not that it is closed to new ideas, but how open it is to them.

You might want to follow the recent developments in cold fusion research to see this in action; new experimental results have recently re-opened the debate on cold fusion, after many years of cold fusion being a pariah theory.

-- The Anome 08:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Accupunture and chiropractic

Should not they also be included in pseudoscience? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ProtoCat (talk • contribs) 19:12, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

Shhhhhh! Don't let accpuncturists and chiropracters hear you say that.Bubba73 (talk), 15:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Psychological explanations

Hello. I'm new to this article. I think its written very well. I did come across this published article though, by a social psychologist called Pratkanis [8]. Its actually in the peer reviewed journal Skeptical Enquirer. It seems to be very relevant to explaning as Pratkanis puts in the "holy cow!" problem (how do some people believe pseudoscience?". From a science and psychology perspective it seems to be strongly relevant to this article. It actually seems relevant also to the characteristics of pseudoscience, but I think the perspective is more towards explanation. I see there are some quite experienced editors here. So does anybody have a suggested line or two for introducing the main concepts into the psychological explanations section? Newtonspeed 05:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi again. Here is an interesting pdf link to an example that helps distinguish sci from pseudosci [9]. Its framed in the same sort of ways as the above, though perhaps more in terms of techniques of persuasion. Newtonspeed 08:43, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

According to Popper, individual psychology, and psychoanalysis are good examples of pseudoscience. Proponents of both theories held onto them for their explanatory power, but they failed in terms of falsification. That is, they did not actively look for contradictions in their hypnotheses. --Comaze 08:11, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes but they are not good examples because there are secondary sources qualifying them with more specific points. There are only some aspects of Freud's ideas that are PS. He's not totally PS. Psychoanalysis nowadays isn't total PS. Though there do seem to be some problems with some actual pseudosciences being used in some areas of psychotherapy. So those specific pseudosciences are far better examples than psychotherapy or psychoanalysis per se. Newtonspeed 15:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll check my lecture notes and get back to you with some specific examples. It might be a few days. Freud's psychosexual stages (development model) are problematic because he offers the opposite/reverse explanation if someone does not fit in the model. ie. repression, denial, and especially, reaction formation... If someone acts in a way that does not fit Freud's model the client must have reaction formation. On the positive side Freud was responsible for making major contribution to psychology, the unconscious is probably the most important contribution that remains in psychology. Best --Comaze 10:34, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh sorry, I meant that Freud isn't a good example in relation to psychological explanations of why pseudoscience ideas stick to people. Newtonspeed 10:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Are you talking about why pseudoscience sticks to ordinary people? It seems that Freud's theories have stuck to psychology for years. There are attempts, however, to integrate it into the scientific psychology. Second, Freud's theories have not been easily replicated by other scientists. Also, I don't understand why you think that Popper is reliable? His views on falsification is necessary for good science and his views are widely regarded in both philosophy of psychology and philosophy of science. --Comaze 11:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand the subject of this section. Its about explaining why people get fooled, and what sort of methods of psychological persuasion are used. I'm sure some aspects of Freuds ideas are pseudoscientific, but that really doesn't seem to be core to the issue of this section. It may be relevant elsewhere in the article and I'm sure we'd be happy to have any very reliable and relevant information included as usual. You'd need to discuss with others most likely though. Newtonspeed 11:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Are you looking for something like The Barnum effect? --Comaze 12:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

No presently I'm looking for explanations that are mentioned by sources. If the Barnum effect is mentioned then fine. But so far I think its mostly confirmation bias, and some social psychology methods that are applied by pseudoscientific groups. Pratkanis seems to be backed up by other sources, but I want to ok it with others here before adding anything in. Still trying to sort it out. Newtonspeed 03:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

PS, I ran a search on the author above (Pratkanis and pseudoscience and psychoanalysis) and couldn't find much. But then ran it on pratkanis and pseudoscience and there are other good references, one by a researcher called Grant Devilly (Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry). That reference may have something you are looking for. I'll have a check myself though. Newtonspeed 11:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Phrenology a precursor to neuroscience?

Just to encourage healthy discussion. Was it really considered an important precursor? [10] That seems to imply that its a protoscience and any pseudoscience can be seen as protoscientific. It seems to be quite wrong. Its down to sourcing though I guess. If there are a good weight of sources for the assertion then it could be acceptable. Newtonspeed 07:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Phrenology was the first known attempt at localisation of brain function. See any neuroscience text. On second thought, maybe precursor was not the right word. My point is that to say phrenology is a classical example of pseudoscience without mentioning its importance in the development of biopsychology and neuroscience is not in line with wikipedia policy. --Comaze 07:10, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not intending it to be dismissed out of hand. I understand you are allowed to be bold and edit, but you are to respect a reversion with discussion. With respect, I can see from your contributions that your particular bias (we all have biases and I admit mine are quite towards testability and empiricism) may be towards the presentation of pseudoscience as protoscience. Though some have your view its not the majority of science thinking. I'm just following procedure with regards discussion on good sourcing for a particular view. Any range of peer reviewed sources will be fine, and of course reliable books and websites are to be taken into account as per NPOV on reliable sources. Either way, it remains that if any specific part or assertion of a phrenologist being turned into science will need to be mentioned at least somewhere else in the article. Its most likely just not specific enough to imply that one fringe subject was important for the development of neuroscience. From my understanding, the sciences of biology and physiology are the main precursors to neuroscience. I would imagine that any distortion of that view would be unacceptable. Input from other editors here may be helpful. Newtonspeed 07:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Localisation of brain function is the main research technique in cognitive neuroscience. I can understand and agree with your requirement for sourcing. I need to do a search later. If you feel the need to revert in the meantime go for it. I'll post it again when I have the sources or remove the assertion if my memory has failed me. --Comaze 08:09, 21 June 2007 (UTC) I've posted that reference to Friston2002. It mentions that some researchers refer to neuroimaging techniques as neo-phrenology. There were hundreds of hits in my neuroscience database. I don't have much time to go through the rest of the records. Is that source acceptable to you? Do you have access it to? The assertion is implied by neo-phrenology rather than stated directly. Can you have a go at rewording it in a way that is acceptable to you. Best --Comaze 08:36, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes I understand that issue. Neuroimaging is often used (pictorially) by pseudoscientific concerns in order to promote a particular product. You can see this to a lesser degree in some pseudoscientific self help manuals which depict a head or brain with particular mechanisms in place (usually totally unsupported by science). I still feel it would be misleading to imply that neuroscience was pseudoscientific in some way. You would need to be very specific in any case. Newtonspeed 08:42, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. --Comaze 08:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

PS, could you paste the actual statement by Friston, concerning others mentioning it as neo-phrenology - together with the context of that line? We would need to determine what they are actually getting at. Its sounds like a criticism. If so, it would need to be placed in a critical line in the article with reference to actual statements in relation to pseudoscience. Newtonspeed 08:51, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Friston was a review paper. I think it would be better to reference a neuroscience or psychology text book if you want more context. --Comaze 08:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, is that a no? By context, I mean the paragraph, rather than just the line or line fragment. Newtonspeed 09:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The abstract gives some context. Click on the DOI link I provided in the reference. --Comaze 12:30, 21 June 2007 (UTC) I'll have some better quotes / references when I complete my search. --Comaze 12:31, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Etymology

I think this article would be greatly improved if we could work on that Etymology section. There is an excellent section in the OED on pseudo-science. A good place to start? --Comaze 14:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I put it back into the lead, also reversing some accumulated entropy of the lead section. I also removed the NPOV tag associated with that section. Of course it could theoretically be turned into a genuine etymology, but it would be quite brief and unnecessary, so I wouldn't know how to do that, offhand, without messing excessively with the content and flow of the lead. ... Kenosis 14:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

That's fine. --Comaze 12:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Removed section

I removed the section titled "Medicine and health care". Given that it was focused solely on the issue of shark cartilege, it's useless and misleading as it was. With approprate material and some reasonable breadth of WP:NPOV perspective, and with WP:V and WP:reliable sources of course, this appears to me to have potential as a section in the future. Immediately below is the content I removed: ... Kenosis 14:56, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

• Shark cartilage is falsely promoted as a cancer cure on the basis of an alleged lack of cancer in sharks. According to Ostrander et al (2004) this practice has led to a continuing decline in shark populations, and, perhaps more importantly, patients have been diverted from otherwise effective cancer treatment. They suggest that "the evidence-based mechanisms of evaluation used daily by the formal scientific community should be added to the training of media and governmental professionals". ... 14:56, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Removed fact tags

I removed the "fact" tags for Thagard and Bunge. Both of their works are already in the footnotes, Thagard (1978) is there in at least two footnotes. ... Kenosis 15:02, 22 June 2007 (UTC) ... Footnotes provided for both of these as requested. We could still use a citation in the Bunge footnote to Bunge 1984. Presently it's to his 1983 work, and I recall a 1984 follow-up by him, but can't find it right now. Presently it's footnote #18. ... Kenosis 22:48, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Illustration

I replaced the newly changed illustration, which was nicer but annotated in German, with the previously included illustration that is annotated in English. This allows the interested English-speaking reader to get a sense for how speculative early phrenology was and why it has been long regarded as pseudoscience. I left the new caption stand as is, trusting that the reader interested in further inquiry can get a sense for just how far off the phrenologists were compared to, e.g. Brodmann's areas (which also was arguably pseudoscientific because of its lack of testability in humans at the time, and lack of supportive data used to arrive at the conclusions). In due course I suppose we'll get a sense for how other editors may think about the new illustration caption. I wonder whether the new illustration caption is too focused on aspects of phrenology that may have been protoscientific, as it was unverifiable even at the time it was first developed and put into use in some horrid ways back in the 19th century. Personally i have no objection to the approach, since the topic of pseudoscience and the issue of the demarcation problem isn't nearly as simple as many people may think at first. ... Kenosis 19:13, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Kenosis. The current illustration is preferable as its in English. I feel the caption (about phrenology contributing to modern medical ideas still needs some support from a source. As it stands it looks a little unspecific and vaguely promotional towards pseudoscience as protoscience. Newtonspeed 02:57, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll see if I can find an better quality image. There should be a better quality one in english. --Comaze 03:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Totally agreed that a nicer quality image with English annotations would be very nice, tautological as it may be for me to have said this. I'm more concerned about necessarily implying to the reader that protoscience, or perhaps more accurately, proposed science, necessarily qualifies as empircially based science today. ... Kenosis 04:34, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi Comaze. I reverted you concerning the illustration [11] because the added complexity of the assertions/edits really does look to me like it makes a one sided view that pushes the "benefits" of pseudoscientific thinking. I think simplicity is the answer in this case. That way there is no argument one way or the other. One could say that phrenology contributed more to the study of pseudoscience than any particular science. I think it best if there is no particular argument at all in the caption. If there is a debatable issue then it should be in the article somewhere else - after good sourcing with clear statements and page numbers discussion on the talk page with a group of editors and so on. Newtonspeed 07:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

What can I say, sometimes pseudoscience stumbles on discoveries. I've added the page numbers for the Fodor reference. I assure you this is generally not disputed in cognitive psychology. Did you see the page on Modularity of mind? --Comaze 07:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Well you reverted my edits without any sort of discussion on the issue (which I prompted both here and on my edit summary) of who thinks what about phrenology's contributions to anything in particular. A simple caption with no argument one way or another (sourced or not) would really simplify the issue. The article is more about pseudoscience such as phrenology, rather than neuroscience or neuroimaging or contributions and one sided influences. I read the page on modularity of mind and its only one view out of many on the subject of phrenology. Newtonspeed 07:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Let's work with Wikipedia:Captions. --Comaze 09:16, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Definition – length and breadth

I reverted to the broader definition of pseudoscience, from user Comaze’s addition[12]. Judging by the history of this article, I understand that the previous briefer definition would have been reached via consensus and discussion. My reasoning for the briefer broader definition is that if pseudoscience is so based specifically upon scientific method, then it may distort ideas away from consideration of scientific community behavior and pseudoscientific behavior. Its accurate to say that scientific method is a part of behavior, but the scientific community also generally behaves in a way that doesn’t promote or argue in the pseudoscientific way. The article contains information about “communities” of pseusoscientific thinkers so I think a focus purely on scientific method will make the definition to narrow and take the emphasis away from behavior. Comaze, I’m not trying to imply that you are trying to narrow the definition away from any particular interest you may have, but I would like to point out a possible bias you may have in your use of unsourced assertions [13]. I feel such assertions shouldn’t go unsourced, especially when other editors have pointed out a problem with them. I’m assuming good faith based upon what seems to be your particular perspective. Again, my particular perspective (bias) is towards empirical testing and I am open to other editor’s interpretation of my own biases, though I think its important to understand how the scientific community works as a social phenomenon rather than just as a group that operates the scientific method. Newtonspeed 09:33, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I have no objection to using both definitions in the footnotes of the first paragraph, so long as we don't clutter up the body text with multiple definitions. Seems to me that combined, they might give an opportunity to the reader who chooses to check the notes to get a slightly better perspective at the outset of the article. ... Kenosis 12:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm posting various definitions to show that the one I chose was representative. I didn't pick and choose to support a particular view. Here are a number of definitions from various dictionaries. --Comaze 04:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

1. "A pretended or spurious science; a collection of related beliefs about the world mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method or as having the status that scientific truths now have." (OED 2e 1989).
2. "pseudoscience - A derogatory term for studies and their results based on dubious or spurious science; slipshod methods; false premises, axioms, and assumptions; sensational presentation of findings; predetermined outcomes; and various combinations of the above. Examples include claims for cures of incurable conditions, such as muscular dystrophy and advanced cancer, for human cloning, etc.""pseudoscience" A Dictionary of Public Health. Ed. John M. Last, Oxford University Press, 2007. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. [14]
3. pseudo-science. "A term of epistemic abuse of variable and disputed content." Prof. Frank Cioffi "pseudo-science" The Oxford Companion to Philosophy. Oxford University Press 2005. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. [15]
4. "a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.""pseudoscience n." The New Oxford American Dictionary, second edition. Ed. Erin McKean. Oxford University Press, 2005. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. [16]

Pseudoscience (or pseudo-science) is a group of beliefs mistakenly thought of as scientific. The body of knowledge, methodology, or practice may appear scientific, but it fails to adhere to the basic requirements of the scientific method. --Comaze 07:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I'm informed that I am supposed to show this notification on the relevant pages [17]Newtonspeed 08:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to ignore the side issues. This is really a content dispute about phrenology and whether or not the image caption should say something about its influence on modern neuro-imagining technique (or modularity of mind, etc.). Pseudoscience is not an easy topic, especially since philosophers of science have not yet reached consensus on a definition of pseudoscience. The closest we have is falsification and even then mosts scientists would agree that pseudoscience has a prototypical rather than categorical definition [18] --Comaze 12:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I have also replied to you on the COI article linked above. The issue is not philosophy or content; its conflict of interest and the general push of your contributions. Newtonspeed 13:28, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

See WP:AGF,please. --Comaze 04:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe they've pretty much settled on the definition of pseudoscience being "That which claims to be science but isn't." What they haven't settled on is the precise definition of science (which is where falsification and the whole demarcation problem comes in). Perhaps we should describe it this way? --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 12:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point. But it is getting a little over my head now. I need to check with my professor. Do you think that prototypical v. categorical is relevant to demarcation problem (and this article)? See eg. Herbert et al. --Comaze 12:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Reverted the new lead paragraph

I brought the lead paragraph back to the longstanding language (used since about late 2006) here, and combined the two existing sentences here, as they were somewhat redundant and didn't require two sentences. The issues I had with the worthy attempt to rewrite the first paragraph a couple days ago were grammatical and contextual. The attempt at a new lead, aside from being unilateral thus far (Comaze, I think), both unduly narrowed the context of psuedoscience in the first sentence and made a needless statement "about the world". Yes, of course the beliefs are about the world or some aspect of it, and it needn't be said in the lead. And without that extra clause, all that information, specifically "... any body of knowledge, methodology, belief, or practice that claims to be scientific but does not follow the scientific method", can fit easily into the first sentence. And there was also room for "or made to appear scientific" without an excessively long or confusing sentence, so I eliminated the second sentence, which previously had read: "Pseudosciences may appear scientific, but they do not adhere to the basic requirements of the scientific method." Since the first sentence already mentions the failure to follow scientific method, there appears to be no need for the second sentence. Also, the use of "That is" in the second sentence of the proposed replacement lead unnecessarily postponed the definition for the second sentence, and was grammatically incorrect. ... Kenosis 14:44, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Kenosis. I think a longstanding edit that has obviously had a lot of work on it already should stand especially against what seems to be a particular POV agenda. I would err towards conservative editing in this article's case as there seems to have been quite a problem with tendentious and disruptive editors in the past. Newtonspeed 15:32, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Kenosis, Your merging was good step forward. I still have a problem with the phrase "body of knowledge". What exactly does "body of knowledge" cover that is not covered by beliefs or practice? The phrase does not seem to be epistemologically sound. --Comaze 16:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

This is not an article solely about philosophy of science or epistemology, although the demarcation problem quite plainly is central. A body of knowledge, such as, say, the knowledge how a person of average strength can hit a golf ball 320 yards, or, say, a detailed knowledge of phrenology or of the city of Glasgow, Ireland, if it is put forward by its proponents as being scientific but does not follow scientific method, is according to the definition given in the article eligible to be termed pseudoscientific. The word "belief" is too easily misinterpreted in its various applications to dependably sit on its own, and the added words "or practice" do not settle the issue of this addditional range of things eligible to be termed pseudoscience if they are asserted to be scientific but aren't consistent with what the scientific community regards as scientific. This is why, after going through various stages such as "alleged knowledge", previous participants in this article, including myself, agreed that, in light of the WP:reliable sources consulted about pseudoscience, "body of knowledge, belief or practice" reasonably covered the range of things which could potentially fall under the rubrick of pseudoscience. ... Kenosis 17:44, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes Kenosis, epistemology is often used as a pivot to push pseudoscientific ideas. Basically its used as a fancy way of saying epistemology holds more weight than scientific method. I read this argument by a preacher/phd who was propounding teleological concepts of evolution. Basically, its the idea that everything is connected (and relevance is thrown out the window) - so also is cause and effect. The "epistemology shift" is also used by the "quantum" movement in alternative medicine. So epistemology can be science oriented, or even totally anti-science. If science doesn't support your product, just go to a more philosophical level and say philosophical things. If you end up concluding something unscientific, nobody is any the wiser anyhow! Newtonspeed 18:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Newtonspeed, I think your post is off-topic. Please keep your posts related to the article. --Comaze 20:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

My post is about pseudoscience and epistemology. Its on topic. You are being disruptive by objecting to criticism of pseudoscientific concepts that you profit from. I believe your COI [19] [20] is making editing with you impossible and I ask you to refrain from editing on pseudoscience and NLP related articles. Newtonspeed 02:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

See WP:AGF. --Comaze 03:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Newtonspeed. You are the one causing trouble here. Its fine to run a company and make money. It has nothing to do with editing. Comaze is one of the best editors I have seen and has obviously a lot more knowledge about this subject than some. It should be kept in mind that NLP is only considered pseudoscience by the more cynical skeptics and that should be taken into account. I notice the cynical attitude is spread through this article including the opening. Its illogical and needs some work to bring it into line with progressive modern thinking. Steve B110 04:57, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I begin to get the picture. Let's be clear, please, on at least one thing. Underlying the concept of pseudoscience is an assumption that scientists have some degree of credibility at stake when summarizing the results of their hard work and research to the public, to policymakers, or to any person or set of persons who are not themselves scientists. The word "pseudoscience" is applied in order to succinctly state an opinion, in one word, that purveyors of a body of knowledge, belief, or practice say their concepts or methods are scientific, but either simply don't understand what constitutes currently accepted scientific method, or are otherwise mistakenly holding that the set of ideas, methodology or practice is in accordance with accepted scientific method. This also presumes that there is an attempt by those advocating a particular body of knowledge, belief or practice to persuade an audience to attach extra credibility to what's being put forward above and beyond the level of credibility that might be given if the proponents of the body of knowledge, belief or practice said instead, for instance, "Here's the way we see it", or "We think this is great", etc.-- in order to get extra credibility attached to the idea(s) or practice(s) by calling it "science" or "scientific". Thus, the proponent of a pseudoscience is unjustly capitalizing on the accumulated reputation of science that results from the immense efforts and diligent application of scientific method by many scientists and researchers. The application of words like "unscientific", "pseudoscience", "junk science", etc., are, then, attempts to protect the range of application of the words "science" and "scientific". Hence, since the boundaries are not hard-and-fast, arguments will happen, and occasionally emerging fields will be called pseudoscience, some of which may later turn out to be accepted, but which must follow scientific method if they are to be accepted as scientific.

Regarding contemporary scientific method, see, e.g., Hugh Gauch's Scientific Method in Practice (2003), which explains AAAS guidelines for contemporary scientific method, guidelines that place extreme importance on openness to scrutiny ("full disclosure"), recordkeeping of experimental methodology, operational definitions, statistical analysis of the data points obtained through study, etc. ... Kenosis 03:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

My main point is that the opening sentence is not an accurate paraphrase of the citations given. It is subtle but the current interpretation does not strike me as logically sound. My main problem is in the term knowledge. Maybe we should get an WP:RFC on that point? --Comaze 04:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Comaze's point was, in essence, one that was previously disagreed with, and remains disagreed with, AFAICT. I think what would be needed to change the approach of the article lead, in some possible way that it has a reasonable chance to remain at least somewhat stable, is an articulation of how and why the substantive aspects of the lead paragraph would better serve the reader by changing those substative aspects of the lead, and an agreement or consensus that it would be an improvement, consistently of course with WP policy and pending, of course, possible feedback by yet other participants who may choose to weigh in now or in the future. ... Kenosis 04:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Here is some feedback. I also think you are being illogical. There are other views that should be introduced to the opening, especially with the epistemological side. There are also some major problems with bias in the article. It needs fixing. A cooperative attitude would help. Steve B110 05:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

<unindent>Regarding the facts that User:Newtonspeed called out, see: [21]. I think I begin to get the picture here. ... Kenosis 05:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't jump to conclusions. I also reverted that contribution but the edit conflicted with yours. --Comaze 05:18, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

What conclusions? I merely observed that, following User:Newtonspeed's observation called to the attention of participants in this discussion, that apparently two WP users who according to thier edit histories are closely involved with neuro-linguistic programming, are presently involved with the article on pseudoscience. ... Kenosis 05:40, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Kenosis. Look at the findings of the COI on Comaze. Theres nothing wrong with us editing with an expert practitioner knowledge of an admittedly misunderstood subject. Part of the problem with the NLP article is due to misunderstandings with pseudoscience and protoscience. Thats a widely held view in NLP circles and in psychology. So please keep your and Newtonspeeds unsupported opinions on other editors to yourselves and assume good faith. Steve B110 06:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm open to getting reverted Comaze, but I could do without Kenosis' cynical attitude. These guys just don't seem to get that we are into cooperative editing. I think the Wikipedia tutorial could do with some NLP presups, especially "behind every behaviour is a positive intention" I second your concern. Kenosis (and your friend Newtonspeed), stop jumping to conclusions. Steve B110 05:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, but Kenosis is what? Sounds a bit uncivil to me. Orangemarlin 05:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Try to see that we are working on helpful suggestions here. For example the clinical psychology section is actually quite biased towards skepticism. There is a lot more to add to the last paragraph there from sources who are concerned about the tyranny of scientific experimentation. Observation starts with the practitioner. I think the article is being quite unfair to a lot of constructive subjects by taking such a sweeping approach. Other views need to be heard and until they are the article is being kept in a very biased state. Steve B110 05:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

What I see is someone trying to pawn NLP off as "science". It isn't -- it's reliance on a wide range of subjective experiences, feelings, beliefs etc., take it outside the realm of science. How is NLP quantifiable? How can one do any kind of study on its efficacy? Would a double-blind study even be possible? (The correct answer is no).

As a linguist, I find NLP to be an insult to linguistics, and a misrepresentation of the function of language.

Now then, from the perspective of the article: NLP is considered by a majority of scientists to be a pseudoscience and as such needs to be mentioned as one. From a "proof-of-NLP's-value" standpoint, I don't particularly care that some corporations try to program their employees using NLP -- corporations also gobbled up the "Who Moved My Cheese" nonsense a few years back (which book was a derivation of some of NLP). As a human, however, I find the use of NLP as a tool for social engineering to be repugnant.

Finally, your comments about opinions does not belong here. And a nota bene for you: the people who most often cite AGF are those least likely to be acting in good faith. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 10:24, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The lead paragraph needs to be improved because there are some big misconceptions. I don’t want you to feel guilty about it, the misconceptions in the science pseudoscience field are easy to make. To answer your misconceptions on NLP and editing: Just because an editor makes a living from offering the benefits of NLP to others, it doesn’t mean we are trying to palm you off. The conflict of interest issue was blown up to make it a problem. I think a strong attitude change is needed from some editors here. Just stop jumping to conclusions and think about how we are trying to give you some more information to help.

First off, NLP is known as an epistemology. It’s a whole way of thinking. Second, NLP is unvalidated. Yes I can be honest about that. That means not completely validated yet. Neuroscientists don’t yet understand the mechanisms of NLP and they can’t measure them, just as they can’t measure certain balances of energy in the human body. The effects are subtle yet powerful.

Third: NLP isn’t pseudoscience and only the most cynical scientists believe that it is pseudoscience. For one thing its far more progressive than linguistics. What has linguistics offered to personal effectiveness? Nothing! I think you would benefit from NLP yourself. Social reengineering is not the core of NLP. Its empowerment. It can make you more persuasive and helps you to succeed in life. I'll look around for more to add to the suggested changes. Steve B110 11:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

NLP is hive-mind thought that uses social engineering to fool people into thinking they are more than they are. Admittedly, one can argue that feeling "empowered" is beneficial in that the person feels better. On the other hand I've dealt with the "empowered" -- fools who have proven the Peter Principle ten fold: they talk a good game, move up in the organisation and then succeed in being some of the most benighted fools anyone has ever seen. So, no thank you, I don't need your "power of positive thinking" bullshit: I know what my capabilies are and in what I'm deficient, and that has seen me rise nicely through my organisation and receive performance awards every year since 1992. In addition, as I refuse to lie to others, I will not lie to myself, and as self-delusion is one of the basic requirements of NLP I think I'll skip it.

BTW, as for this, "What has linguistics offered to personal effectiveness?" -- Given that a large part of NLP deals with linguistics (semantics, syntax, expression of thought) I'd say you wouldn't be making a profit from self-deluded fools with inferiority complexes absent linguistics. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 22:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Steve, but NLP is a pseudoscience. It has a sciency sounding name and claimed to be based on science. Hardly anybody (except Dilts a bit) has done any research and it doesn't develop like science. You can still get mainstream NLP handbooks with that silly PRS picture in it! It may be difficult to conduct scientific experiments on bits of brain function but there is nothing wrong with properly conducted, randomized controlled trials on outcome - but they don't do them. They're not interested. (This doesn't mean its all rubbish. A huge number of its techniques are refined versions of techniques from other therapies, some of which are validated - hypnotherapy in particular - but in itself its a pseudoscience). EMDR has a much greater claim to be removed from that paragraph as a considerable amount of research has been done on it and still is. The jury's still out as to whether the finger wagging does anything or not. There is very little research going on for NLP, and, if seem to recall, it was you that removed what little I did find from the NLP page.

As for your somewhat aggressive and ill-mannered attitude towards other editors here, coupled with the fact that you made a big hoohah about getting sources showing how wonderful NLP was for the NLP page but have produced none, I'm beginning to wonder whether you are also a sock of Headley Down like NewtonSpeed, designed to embarrass Comaze on this page with the kind of support he probably neither wants nor needs, and generally mess up the NLP page. You've become active at about the same time and have followed Comaze onto this page. You've played this double sock game before Headley.Fainites 20:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Just highlighting a problem Fainites [22]. The comments above from Steve B are pretty much Comaze to a T. Keep vouching for carpetbaggers and you'll end up getting noticed for being one of the global NLP meatpuppet ring[23]. Headley

Comaze left the building. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 01:53, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Well at least with Comaze you know who he is and where he's coming from - unlike multiple socks. 59 is it now Headley? The 'global meatpuppet ring' doesn't seem to have achieved much. Fainites 12:49, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's true. Socks bug the crap out of me, hence I walk barefoot.  ;) Uh, no, wrong kind of sock. Seriously though, all socks do is waste everyone's time. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 12:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh huge amounts of time. Headley used to invent citations! SteveB110 e-mailed me with false information for a quote I'd asked about on the talkpage in the hope I'd then argue it on the talkpage and presumably look bent. Fainites 12:59, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

User:Newtonspeed

It's recently been revealed that Newtonspeed (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a sockpuppet of long-term banned editor HeadleyDown (See [24]). Given the nature of HeadleyDown's past abuse, it would be a good idea to check back over Newtonspeed's past edits on this article to make sure the same thing hasn't been going on here. If it's bad enough, we may even want to do a revert to a far past version - though let's not take this option lightly. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 14:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Just to let you know that SteveB110 has also just been blocked as another sockpuppet of HeadleyDown. Cheers! Fainites 23:31, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

OK.

Let's not take the option overly-seriously, either. Let's actually look at the edits. This page is an ugly one. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 01:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

In other words, the admins' judgment is that Newtonspeed and Steve110B are alter-egos who've been arguing with one another? If true, what an odd situation indeed. ... Kenosis 02:21, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Hello Dr Jekyll, I'm Mr Hyde; Hello Mr Hyde, I'm Dr Jekyll. Ugh. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 02:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Steve was just a Comaze mimic. He basically pushes NLP the NLP way. Probably highlights the problem better than an ANI note. I knew you guys would correct any dodgy NLP/pseudoscience biased edits. You focus strongly on straight facts above all. Cheers. HD

Smoke. Headley also followed me onto the attachment pages where I'm trying to edit against unvalidated therapy. (Without much success as yet but that's another story). He retains spiteful grudges against those who have opposed him. Enough of this. I'm off. Good luck guys! Fainites 12:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Just to warn you guys in case he comes back in a new form, I kindly e-mailed him some sources on a different page as a different sock before he was spotted. Now I'm getting spiteful e-mails. Take care chaps. Fainites 21:56, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Final post. R.I.P. [25]

Poppers view

What is insufficient about these edits? They are well sourced. --rtc 06:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)