Talk:Scientology

Scientology not Church of Scientology

I'm making this comment because by reading the article about Scientology one may assume that Scientology and the Church of Scientology are the same thing. There are many people including myself that have left the Church of Scientology because -in short- they don't believe that L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology is taught and applied in the Church of Scientology.

To be fair, things that pertain to the Church of Scientology should be moved to a separate Wikipedia section. And the Church may be mentioned along with the other splinter groups that are mentioned in the Scientology page. Illusionist1 (talk) 23:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The church is by far the largest organization in the world promoting Scientology (or a version of it, if you prefer), so any article that gives an overview of Scientology is necessarily going to touch on the church more than the splinter groups. Remember, this article isn't just about the Scientology belief system (that would be Scientology beliefs and practices), it's also about the scandals surrounding Scientology, the reactions of governments and other religions to it, etc. It's a summary style article that provides a bird's-eye-view of a lot of topics. --GoodDamon 23:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

This article is about the overall organization of Scientology (of which the Church of Scientology is only a part) as well as the belief system of Scientology. AndroidCat (talk) 05:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

The use of self-published sources

I just want to point out that self published sources can be used!!! WP:SPS states:

Using self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves

Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:

the material used is relevant to the notability of the subject of the article;

1. it is not unduly self-serving;
2. it does not involve claims about third parties;
3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
4. there is no reason to doubt its authenticity;
5. the article is not based primarily on such sources;
6. the source in question has been mentioned specifically in relation to the article's subject by an independent, reliable source.

Meta-issue: Court documents and reliable sourcing

This would be as good a time as any to open the issue of court documents. Court documents are primary materials that, like all primary materials, may be used in accordance with WP:PRIMARY. That policy is very general and the proper use of primary materials in specific instances will always be a topic for discussion. There is, however, a meta-issue that I would like to discuss. I will try to state it below, feel free to amend it toward a better statement. --Justallofthem (talk) 18:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Statement of issue

These are many court documents related to Scientology. For the our purposes and with reference to WP:PRIMARY these may be divided into three rough categories.

1. Court documents that have been published in whole or in part in secondary sources.
2. Court documents that have been specifically referenced in secondary sources but not published verbatim.
3. Court documents that have not been specifically referenced in secondary sources.

Issue 1

The proper place of these three categories is the first issue to be addressed here.

Once we have decided that we might want to use a court document as a source, the question comes up as to how, exactly, do we access this document. In the past, I believe that I can say with confidence, editors have used so-called "courtesy copies" hosted on POV sites critical of Scientology. This practice is currently under the spotlight after editors objected to an affidavit hosted similarly but on a Scientology-sympathetic site. That instance is a good example of the problem that we need to solve. The so-called "Ronald DeWolf retraction affidavit" is referenced in a number of secondary materials critical of Scientology. The only place I found it online was on the scientologymyths.info site, here, and an associated archive site. As the document is referenced in multiple places it might be appropriate to quote relevant parts of it if we can agree on the suitability of the sourcing.

Issue 2

The second issue to be addressed here is what would constitute an acceptable "true copy" of a court document for use here.

Comment by Justallofthem

On the first issue, use of the last would seem to violate the text and spirit of WP:PRIMARY, i.e. the "affidavit of Joe Blow in the case of Suzie Que vs. the Church of Scientology" would have no place in Wikipedia if that specific document has not at least been referenced in a secondary source. We are not in the position to judge the merit, relative importance, or credibility of a document such as that. I will withhold my comments on the second issue for now as I want to hear what others have to say. --Justallofthem (talk) 18:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Fahrenheit451

Justallofthem, I note that you refer to affidavit "courtesy copies" "hosted on POV sites critical of Scientology", but on the other hand you refer to an affidavit "hosted similarly but on a Scientology-sympathetic site", and not refering to that affidavit as a courtesy copy or the scientology sympathetic site as "POV". You are clearly treating each situation in accordance with your own POV and not impartially.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 07:46, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Please word-clear "similarly". --Justallofthem (talk) 12:41, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Please strive to keep your POV out of this discussion.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:22, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Why, should we only allow your POV? I quote: You are clearly treating each situation in accordance with your own POV and not impartially' Snort. --Justallofthem (talk) 04:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, please keep your POV out of this discussion. No snort.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 05:27, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Why do you always want to waste time with this off-topic sniping? --Justallofthem (talk) 12:31, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

The sniping seems to be coming from you here. I made a comment and you replied with an snide "Please word-clear "similarly". I attempted to put the discussion back on track and you replied with another snide remark. You may be talking about yourself.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 06:13, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Jayen466

I agree that we should not use court documents that are not referred to in secondary sources – it is original research to do so. We should reflect the current published secondary sources. Jayen466 13:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Bravehartbear

Court Documents should only be used as a reference for a secundary source and never as a primary source. I don't have have problem with judgements but affidavits are only a POV. I'm very concern this will be just a used as a POV pushing tool. Also a official court document requires a signature and a court seal. Bravehartbear (talk) 18:24, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Proximodiz

Court documents could be useful to back up date information (like the incorporation date of the first Church of Scientology) but they cannot be hosted on private sites. I think such documents should be uploaded to Wikisource and scrutinized for validity before they can be used as a reference. Case in point, the links for following reference "Church of American Science' (incorporation papers); 'Church of Scientology' (incorporation papers); 'Church of Spiritual Engineering,' (incorporation papers); 18 December 1953." should be removed. Proximodiz (talk) 04:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Scientology History

I have big problems with the last sentences of the 4th paragraph:

Mr. Miscavige, the highest-ranking Scientology leader, walked in to see Fred T. Goldberg Jr., the Commissioner of the Internal Revenue Service at the time, without an appointment. He was later seen and allegedly offered to halt the lawsuits Scientology had against the IRS in exchange for tax exempt status. To this end, Goldberg allegedly ordered tax analysts to ignore multiple court precedents and other substantive issues during the review of the decision.}

Since when Wikipedia uses the word allegedly? Who alleged what? The official statement from IRS officials is:

While I.R.S. officials insisted that Scientology's tactics had not affected the decision, some officials acknowledged that ruling against the church would have prolonged a fight that had consumed extensive Government resources and exposed officials to personal lawsuits. At one time, the church and its members had more than 50 suits pending against the I.R.S. and its officials.

"Ultimately the decision was made on a legal basis," said a senior I.R.S. official who was involved in the case and spoke on the condition that he not be identified. "I'm not saying Scientology wasn't taking up a lot of resources, but the decision was made on a legal basis."

"In interviews, senior Scientology officials and the I.R.S. denied that the church's aggressive tactics had any effect on the agency's decision. They said the ruling was based on a two-year inquiry and voluminous documents that showed the church was qualified for the exemptions.

Metting betwen Miscavige and Goldberg was private to the only references to this meeting are from the CoS and state that it was done to resolve the dispute. What was offered or not is pure speculation. Afther the metting Goldberg set up a committee to resolve this issue.

When the committee determined that all Scientology entities should be exempt from taxes, I.R.S. tax analysts were ordered to ignore the substantive issues in reviewing the decision, according to I.R.S. memorandums and court files.

Mr. Schoenfeld, the negotiations chairman, ordered the two tax analysts assigned to the review not to consider any substantive matters, according to I.R.S. memorandums and records in the Tax Analysts case. Those issues, Mr. Schoenfeld informed them, had been resolved.

The tax analysts were ordered to ignore multiple court precedents and other substantive issues during the review of the decision because this issues were already resolved by the commitee.

So lets stick to the facts and ignore opinions or allegations. The facts are these:

1. The tax exempt status was granded and then removed on the basis that it profited Hubbard.
2. The CoS responded by making it dificult for the IRS.
3. DM and Goldberg meet.
4. Goldberg set up a committee to resolve this issue.
5. The committee determined that all Scientology entities should be exempt from taxes.
6. The ruling was based on a two-year inquiry and voluminous documents that showed the church was qualified for the exemptions. The IRS stated the pressure by CoS was not a factor.
7. Two tax analysts were assigned to do a review and finish the settlement. They were ordered not to consider any substantive matters because these issues were already resolved.

ref:

PS all the above quotes are from the same NY Times article. Humbly Bravehartbear (talk) 02:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The New York Times article says:

Among the findings of the review by The Times, based on more than 30 interviews and thousands of pages of public and internal church records, were these:

• ...
• The decision to negotiate with the church came after Fred T. Goldberg Jr., the Commissioner of the Internal Revenue Service at the time, had an unusual meeting with Mr. Miscavige in 1991. Scientology's own version of what occurred offers a remarkable account of how the church leader walked into I.R.S. headquarters without an appointment and got in to see Mr. Goldberg, the nation's top tax official. Mr. Miscavige offered to call a halt to Scientology's suits against the I.R.S. in exchange for tax exemptions.

There is the official statement of the IRS, which must be stated as such in the article, but there are also the findings of the New York Times, which we must present as well in the article. Maybe "allegedly" is not a good word, I don't know. How about "The New York Times found..." or "The New York Times determined..." Raymond Hill (talk) 04:16, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I concur with Bravehartbear. We are giving the NYT "findings" full weight, while ignoring the official IRS statements, which in part address these concerns. Jayen466 13:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, WP:RS states:

News reporting is distinct from opinion pieces. Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors... Opinion pieces are also distinguished between those representing the opinion of the news organization's editorial board and those representing the opinion of one author (or a few co-authors.)

What I see is that the first part of the article in question where the autor gives his conclusions are based on the author's opinion that is contracdicted by the facts that he is presenting. What I see is that this article is a mixture of opinion and facts. We must separate the opinions out and stick with the facts. The facts are the only valueable part of this article. Bravehartbear (talk) 04:27, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a link or source to that "The official statement from IRS officials"? AndroidCat (talk) 07:25, 18 December 2008 (UTC) Puzzling Journey, right? (Best not to use ref links in Talk pages.) I'll review it. AndroidCat (talk) 07:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The person who alleged the impromptu meeting took place was none other David Miscavige himself in a presentation to members, followed by Church of Scientology publications. Later, after the leak, contradictory statements were issued by Church of Scientology officials saying the meeting never took place. It seems that the problem with reliability lies with Scientology and David Miscavige. AndroidCat (talk) 11:41, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

• Frantz, Douglas (1997-03-19). "Scientology Denies an Account Of an Impromptu I.R.S. Meeting". New York Times. Retrieved 2008-12-15. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Sorry I was not talking about the meeting but other conclusions that NY Times stated like what took place in the meeting when this meeting was private, I never argued there was a meeting. Bravehartbear (talk) 16:18, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like the original Scientology article featured an impressive amount of spin. :-) Without actually saying so, it certainly creates the impression that Mr Miscavige was taken to see the IRS man right away. A good example of why we shouldn't use Scientology's primary sources either. Jayen466 13:01, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, the New York Times thought they could trust the statement of David Miscavige, backed by official Scientology publications, about an otherwise mysterious confidential deal, and since the IRS and Fred Goldberg won't confirm or deny either of Scientology's accounts of the meeting, *shrug*. Normally Scientology sources are at least RS about what is said by Scientology. AndroidCat (talk) 13:28, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the most likely explanation is that, for internal consumption and morale-boosting, the Scientology journalists thought it would be cool to present it as though Mr Miscavige had just walked in, Wild West-style, and was seen right away. It obviously would have been less rousing to report that he called at the desk, politely asked for an appointment, and was seen a month later – so they glossed over that part. It is the same with Freedom magazine and other Scientology sources – it is certain that some of it is true, and some of it is spin, but it is often hard to tell where truth ends and spin begins. Of course, some of the Scientology critics are even worse.

Looking at the original New York Times article that we cite, they actually attributed it: "cientology's own version of what occurred offers a remarkable account of how the church leader walked into I.R.S. headquarters without an appointment and got in to see Mr. Goldberg, the nation's top tax official. Mr. Miscavige offered to call a halt to Scientology's suits against the I.R.S. in exchange for tax exemptions."

We probably shouldn't be confidently asserting in our article that Miscavige walked in without an appointment and saw Goldberg. At the moment we say: "In 1991, Mr. Miscavige, the highest-ranking Scientology leader, walked in to see Fred T. Goldberg Jr., the Commissioner of the Internal Revenue Service at the time, without an appointment.[29] He was later seen and allegedly offered to halt the lawsuits Scientology had against the IRS in exchange for tax exempt status. To this end, Goldberg allegedly ordered tax analysts to ignore multiple court precedents and other substantive issues during the review of the decision.[29]" Suggestions? Jayen466 15:18, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Then we would be confidently asserting Scientology's second claim that no such immediate meeting occurred. :) I believe that Scientology writers were only repeating what had been said by Miscavige or possibly Rathbun at the Los Angeles Sports Arena, October 1993, but I don't have a cite for that. AndroidCat (talk) 15:40, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

• Newton, Jim (1993-10-13). "IRS, Scientology End Their 'Wars' -- Church And Its Corporations Are Granted Tax-Exempt Status". Los Angeles Times, St. Petersburg Times. Seattle Times. Retrieved 2008-12-15. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Thanks for the sources. Well, even the International Scientology News, as quoted by the NYT article you linked above, did not explicitly claim there was an immediate meeting, whereas the Church was definite and unequivocal in 1997 that there wasn't an immediate meeting. The ISN article is dated by the NYT to 1994, i.e. some time after the announcement of the "end of the war". I am sure if you read British reminiscences about the road to VE day from 1946, there will be some glossing over and embellishments too. Jayen466 16:01, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone happen to have the text of the Scientology advertisement rebutting the NYT article? Has it been commented on anywhere? Jayen466 16:04, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

It has been commented on, as well as Miscavige's IAS speech, 8 October 1993. (A partial version was printed in issue 32 of International Scientology News.) Wayback has some of the hatewatch.freedommag.org site Tsk, it's all very entangled. AndroidCat (talk) 18:51, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, Mr Miscavige too never actually says he met them on that day. But the way he doesn't say it in his victory speech I am sure everyone in the audience pictured him having had the meeting that day. It made a good story. Jayen466 22:11, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

(dedent)

"In October of 1991, while this war was raging at its apex, Marty Rathbun and I were in Washington DC. to attend one of these court hearings I mentioned. It was to be the next day. We had just finished a lunch meeting and our next appointment wasn't for a couple of hours. In other words - we had some spare time on our hands. That's not something we're accustomed to, so - we thought at last we could create a bit of mischief. We told the lawyers we'd see them in an hour or so and that we would be down at the IRS building. Of course they had a good chuckle as we left the room. Off we proceeded to 1111 Constitution Avenue - which if you didn't know is the address of the national headquarters of the IRS. We presented ourselves to security at the front door, signed the visitors log and informed them we were there to see Fred. They asked - Fred who? We answered, Fred Goldberg of course, the Commissioner of the IRS. "Is he expecting you"" they asked. "No", was our response. "but if you phone him on the intercom and tell him we are from the Church of Scientology, I am sure he'd love to see us." Have you ever wondered whether we were really impinging, when we have spoken of the IRS at previous events? Well - if so - shame on you. "We did meet with the commissioner, and, as the saying goes - the rest is history."

It does make a good story, but didn't someone FOIA-request the visitors' log, which showed no visit? Strange. AndroidCat (talk) 22:38, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, Rathbun said they met one month later. I think that is more likely to have been the truth. Agreed? Jayen466 23:29, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant. What anyone thinks is more likely to be the truth would be OR unless a WP:RS. (Personally I doubt any of the versions of the Tale of the IRS Meeting are completely true. So what?) AndroidCat (talk) 04:58, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

More Scientology hystory

The last sentence is incorrect IAW CNN

the Church of Scientology consequently bought the Cult Awareness Network in bankruptcy court, and now operates it as a promotional arm for the Church of Scientology itself

CAN was purchased by a Scientologists not the CoS and "now operates it as a promotional arm for the Church of Scientology" is pure opinion. The other references for this sentence are not reliable neither. Bravehartbear (talk) 02:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, not accurate. Scientologist Steven L. Hayes bought CAN's "logo and other appurtenances", Scientologist Gary Beeny got CAN files, and operations of CAN was turned over to "Scientology-backed group, the Foundation for Religious Freedom," as reported in Ron Russell's "Scientology Revenge." Raymond Hill (talk) 04:31, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, as I said before, the characterization of the New CAN as a "promotional arm for the Church of Scientology" is contradicted by more recent academic sources. See [1] (James R. Lewis, 2005), [2] (Anson Shupe, 2006). These opinions should be given due weight as per WP:RS#Scholarship: (1), they are more up to date, (2), these are scholarly sources. Jayen466 13:34, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

We really, really need to be careful here. James R. Lewis is one of only a few self-identified scholars of new religious movements, and as far as I can find is largely regarded as a cult apologist in the much wider field of religious academia. We should not be limiting ourselves to religious scholarship by this small group of individuals. A lot of religious scholars have written about Scientology -- and about CAN -- and picking Mr. Lewis as a source, considering the controversies around him (and for that matter, around Anson Shupe; he's got a similar reputation), seems unlikely to result in a balanced article. Why not track down noted scholars in the wider religious field and use them as sources instead? --GoodDamon 14:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

That's plain bollocks: Not even Benjamin Zablocki, Stephen A. Kent and the like employ the term "cult apologist" and Lewis is considered one of the few (there are maybe about 50-100 scholarly sources on SCN) scholarly experts on Scientology. Just because some ant-cult crusaders try to smear anybody, who does not express their, I say it mildly, "point of view", does not mean that we cannot draw on academically published sources. Fossa_?! 15:08, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say Kent or Zablocki use the term. I was using the term as a general descriptor, after reading about Mr. Lewis here on Wikipedia and in a few news articles. Kent and Zablocki would be two examples of religious scholars who don't hold Mr. Lewis in high regard, but the term was my own. --GoodDamon 16:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Mr Lewis does not have a crystal ball, and frankly, looking at the world's history of minorities accused of crimes, I would prefer someone who once in a while errs in favour of the minority to someone who generally assumes guilt and errs in that. This is consistent with the fundamental principle of our legal system: innocent until proven guilty; better to let one murderer go free than to execute one innocent man. I don't believe Lewis claimed AUM were innocent once there was conclusive evidence to tie them to the attacks. Again: it is the scholarly community that determines an author's standing. It is absolutely ludicrous if people here argue that an academic who has won prizes for his work, whose works are required reading in university syllabuses, and who is published by the most prestigious university press in the world should not be a reliable source worth citing. I shall bring this up in the arbitration; I have no desire to argue such basic points time and time again. "I don't know about Oxford University Press and Routledge, they may be cult apologists, but Operation Clambake has a very interesting essay here from an ex-scientologist ..." There comes a point when such contributions become actual disruptive editing and should be treated as such. Jayen466 17:25, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

GoodDamon, note that I am not accusing you of citing Clambake essays. I know you don't do that. But I am sure if we watch this talk page for a couple of weeks, someone will come along ... Cheers, Jayen466 17:31, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, I was about to respond to that rather vehemently, and I appreciate you taking note of it. I'm happy to concede the point on James R. Lewis' academic credentials after digging through how much he has published in more detail. I have to admit to some personal qualms about him; he routinely accepts money from the groups he writes about. But that's not for me to judge him on, certainly not in Wikipedia. I'm of a mind to ask at WP:RS/N, just to have some outside perspectives on him. --GoodDamon 17:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, I would suggest that you haven't got a clue what you are talking about, GoodDamon. James R. Lewis is the editor of an upcoming Oxford University Press volume on Scientology. Oxford University Press is not a fringe publishing outfit. I believe they pick and choose their authors quite carefully. Check how many University Press publications and peer-reviewed papers the guys who call Lewis a "cult apologist" have to their credit. Jayen466 15:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

No, Oxford University Press is not a fringe publishing outfit, but you can't cherry-pick with them, either. They also publish works by Richard Dawkins, certainly a notable scholar and scientist. Care to take a look at how this extremely notable, scholarly source describes Scientology? OUP publishes works from all sorts of perspectives. --GoodDamon 16:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

If you care to look in which fields Dawkins has been published by OUP, you will find that the fields concerned are biology and science writing. James R. Lewis may have opinions on genetics; that does not make him a RS in our article on it, even though he is published by Oxford University Press. Cheers, Jayen466 17:28, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, although I would argue that Dawkins is well on his way to establishing himself as a contrarian religious scholar himself. --GoodDamon 17:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

More like he has already established himself as an anti-religious quack, see also http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_.html which summarizes Dawkins "accomplishments" in this field as entertaining as correct. Fossa_?! 18:12, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

This is a typical mistake, the tying of a reputation to a person, rather than to a type of source. Has this not (yet) been rectified in WP:RS? Dawkins has not (and, I take I wild guess) will never publish anything reputable about Scientology, but he did AFAIK on population genetics. Fossa_?! 18:10, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Time did a massive expose on CAN and how scientology literally came up with an organized strategy to bankrupt it and then buy it and use it for thier own purposes. Think of it this way, If I want to sell something that is considerd ilegal but it sells really well I could just buy out the org that decides weather or not this thing I want to sell is ilegal. Boom Motive and you got opertunity, resulting from direct contact with scientology no less. It's really obvious and if that is not enough many scholars and the guy in time as well refer to CAN as a part of scientology now. 67.84.159.28 (talk) 15:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The Time article is more than ten years old, right? I do not think what some reporter 10 years ago thought was going to happen is more reliable than what scholars have observed happening over the past 10 years. Btw, neither Lewis nor Shupe deny that Scientologists have a major role in running the New CAN. They are merely commenting on what the New CAN is actually doing. Jayen466 16:13, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE, WP:RS issues in Celebrities section

I have a big problem with the last paragraph of the article, starting with the words "Andre Tabayoyon, a former Scientologist". The whole paragraph is WP:UNDUE and trivia. "Ploughing meadows." Please!! In addition, almost all of it is cited to a primary source (an affidavit) hosted on an attack site (whyaretheydead.net). How do we know the affidavit has been correctly represented on this extremely POV site? Even conceding that it "probably" is, why are we mentioning it in the main article on Scientoloy without any evidence having been supplied that this is an issue that published secondary sources consider a major aspect of Scientology, important enough to be mentioned in our main article on it? Jayen466 13:58, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Secondary sources need to be found, or it goes. Except in rare, carefully considered situations, we shouldn't be citing anything but reliable news and scholarly sources. I have yet to see an argument that Xenu.net or whyaretheydead.net pass muster as scholarly sources. Neither belong in any section of this article except perhaps under the External Links section. --GoodDamon 14:40, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

They are against Scientology, thus they must be solidly valid sources. Heck, the National Enquirer would become a reputable source, if he were to publish an article on Scientology's attempts to clone Hitler funded by E.T.'s in the North Korean government. Fossa_?! 14:59, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I am not entirly sure that scientology would want to clone hitler, I mean they were nazis in the past but now they are beyond that stage. I understand your humour and your frustration but what alot of us need to keep in mind is the colossal importance this article hold to it, not just with recent even like the protests but that this article is under scrutiny unlike most others in the cateogory of religion. Xenu.net and whyweprotest.net both has original sources (actual leaked scientology documents) that for obvious reasons can not be used here until they appear in a court case or are referenced on the news or some other secondary source. however it is still in my opinion a great idea to keep your eyes on both the sources you CAN use and the source you wish you could use but can't because very soon these two things will be one and the same. The media is really trotting along with this at a fearsomly brisk pace and soon alot of the stuff about the clave camps and the child labour will be in secondary sources and even then third sources.67.84.159.28 (talk) 15:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Fine, let us also keep our eyes on sources we can use: [3][4] Jayen466 16:32, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

well, for a supposed cult (and this coming from someone who pretty much despises scientology - but truth be told) they 've pretty much let you do whatever you want with their entry here, I mean the quality of the sources and the gossipy tone of this part is not something we usually see at wikipedia. Had they been this superevil cult I am sure they 'd find some way to cencor you guys here, pretty ironic really. 91.132.224.196 (talk) 12:05, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Scientology/ Auditing

{{editprotected}} On the Scientology page, under Auditing, there is a request for "citation needed" after the statement: "In Scientology it is considered a high crime to audit people who..."

The citation needed is:

Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter of 6 December 1976RB, revised 8 April 1988: Illegal PCs, Acceptance of, High Crime PL.

In the same section, the third paragraph that reads "...are members or ex-members" should end in or. Like this;

"...are members or ex-members or"

(JDPhD (talk) 20:37, 20 December 2008 (UTC))

 Done.  Sandstein  21:21, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Brilliant, now we have one more primary source in the article. Jayen466 21:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Have to agree, this is not an improvement unless we're allowing Hubbard's policy letters as sources, and I'd like to see a solid argument why we should make a WP:PRIMARY exception for these. I'd just as soon avoid anything written by Hubbard directly in favor of independent analysis. --GoodDamon 02:14, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Scientology: Dispute of "religion" status

I have a bone to pick with this section and that is that is actually mangling two issues that are separate issues together. “Scientology as a religion” is strictly an academic issue; whereas the “Scientology as a state recognized religion” is strictly a legal issue. Different countries have different laws and different levels of religious recognition. Like in Germany, state recognized religions can get federal funds. Mangling these two sections together is just deceptive because it hides the individual legal issues that minority religions like the Mormons and Jehovah witnesses face in these European countries. These two issues should be separate. Bravehartbear (talk) 15:17, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

In addition to government sponsored criticism of minority religions there are also several organizations supported by the mainline Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD) and Roman Catholic Church both of which, although not State churches, have a special relationship with the State and received funds from the Government levied Church tax plus other monies "regulated by" historic "concordats and agreements." Cf. Arno Kappler and Adriane Grevel, eds., Facts About Germany, Frankfurt -am-Main, Societäts-Verlag, 1995, pp. 382. RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IN GERMANY: MIRAGE OR REALITY? by Irving Hexham

The two issues pointed out by Bravehartbear are factually two aspects of a single issue. Any person can make up a doctrine and call it a religion. However, to get government recognition, the practice of that doctrine has to meet certain requirements. In Germany, scientology is treated as a business, even though the corporation claims to be a religion. In Israel, scientology is also treated as a business, despite claims of being a religion. What is a religion is in the eyes of the beholder. What is a religion for legal purposes is a political matter.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:40, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Bravehartbear has pointed at two aspects of a single issue. Politics can not regulate thought and rarely prevent academia from publishing. But, as Fahrenheit451 points out, religion is in the eyes (or mind) of the beholder. Therefore laws created by politics do not regulate religion. For example, laws do not say, "thou shall not think alien thoughts". Instead laws regulate religious organisation. Germany is especially careful. Jonhathon (talk) 03:54, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

It is not clear what is meant by "government recognition". In countries where there is freedom of religion (e.g. the United States), the government is not in the business of "recognizing" a religion as valid or invalid. In the U.S., there is the matter of tax-exempt status for a nonprofit organization for religious purposes, but this does not convey any claim by the government that the religion is authentic ... or even particularly organized! (See, for instance, some of the cases involving the Universal Life Church.)

It seems to me as if some religious groups, possibly including Scientology, trump up their U.S. tax-exempt nonprofit status (or comparable status in other countries) as if it were proof of their bona fides or social standing. But it is not the purpose of U.S. tax-exempt nonprofit status to recognize exemplars of good faith, but rather merely to exclude egregious tax frauds. Simply being recognized by the government as "not a total cheat" is not a very high acclamation. --FOo (talk) 06:38, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your observation, FOo. The First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution prohibits any governmental entity in the United States from determining what is or is not a religion. And yes, I am aware of corporate scientology using the 501(c)3 status they obtained during the Clinton Administration as a credential that the cofs is "recognized" as a religion in the U.S. That is misrepresentation. --Fahrenheit451 (talk) 23:37, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Would the brennan affidavit be usefull here? I mean it is a secondary source since it is cited in a press conference in hamburg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_NKvGOCp9s Would that not make it a secondary source and thus proof positive that the churches religious status is trumped up and false? Aaron Bongart (talk) 17:55, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

A press conference is not usually a reliable source, and the affidavit itself is a primary source. Let's stick to reliable secondary sources. If a news organization vets and confirms the Brennan affidavit in a news story, that news story itself is a reliable source, and should be used. I strongly encourage everyone to read WP:RS and WP:OR. We want to use the former and avoid the latter. --GoodDamon 22:08, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Sample of bona fide sources demonstrating, or referring to, official US recognition of Scientology as a religion

• Here is how the New York Times commented on the 1993 tax exemption:

• The landmark reversal shocked tax experts and saved the church tens of millions of dollars in taxes. More significantly, the decision was an invaluable public relations tool in Scientology's worldwide campaign for acceptance as a mainstream religion. On the basis of the I.R.S. ruling, the State Department formally criticized Germany for discriminating against Scientologists. The German Government regards the organization as a business, not a tax-exempt religion, the very position maintained for 25 years by the American Government.

• I think the NY Times writer clearly expresses the view here that the US abandoned their earlier view of Scientology as a business, as still espoused today by Germany.

• Note that the State Department Report referred to in the NY Times article is the "Religious Freedom Report." The Religious Freedom Reports for Germany have discussed discrimination against Scientologists by the German state almost every year since the IRS decision, referring in 2006 for example to "certain religious minorities, notably Scientologists".

• Following the 1993 IRS decision, the IRS wrote to foreign governments, appending a document entitled "Description of the Scientology Religion" to their letter and stating that various Scientology organizations had demonstrated that "they were organized and operated exclusively for religious or charitable purposes and that no part of their net earnings inures to the benefit of any private individual."

• Media references to the "Scientology religion" (and similar references to Scientology as a religion) are common.

• As for the claimed inability of any governmental entity in the United States to determine what is or is not a religion, the United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit, stated in a 1992 decision that "Indeed, the IRS itself has stipulated in other cases that the Church of Scientology is a bona fide religion."; so in the view of that court at least, the IRS has been quite capable of making such stipulations.

• The St. Petersburg Times wrote in 1998 that "After a 40-year battle, the IRS dropped its tax dispute with Scientology and declared it a tax exempt religion in 1993."

• The Encyclopedia of American Civil Liberties (2006) says that "Despite its legal setbacks, Scientology has achieved full legal recognition as a religious denomination in the United States."

Such sources cannot be dismissed with a wave of the hand as Scientologist "misrepresentation". Jayen466 23:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/media/time-1991-05-06.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mommymooo (talk • contribs) 06:42, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, that is in the article already. It is nearly 20 years old and changes nothing about what the above sources, including the IRS and US State Dept., have said in the years since then. Jayen466 17:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Scientology: Beliefs and practices

{{editprotected}} In the section "Beliefs and practices" of the Scientology page, the second paragraph that reads in part: "Scientologists believe that people are composed of ... mind, spirit and body". The "citation needed" that appears there is: L. Ron Hubbard Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought, pp 65-75, Bridge Publications Inc., 2007 ISBN 978-1403144195

(JDPhD (talk) 22:22, 25 December 2008 (UTC))

Please don't. We're trying to get away from using primary sources. I'm sure there's a good secondary source around for that. Although this does bring up an interesting point; the article on Christianity uses books of the Bible as sources for various statements concerning Christian beliefs. Would a suitable exception to WP:PRIMARY be to use primary sources specifically for citations on what Scientologists actually believe? If we're going to make an exception, that seems to be the most logical one. --GoodDamon 01:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 Not done No consensus yet.  Sandstein  14:21, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

See Scientology_beliefs_and_practices#Spirit.2C_body_and_mind, which cites adequate sources. Our presentation here may need tweaking to reflect those sources. Jayen466 23:26, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Having checked the Primary Sources page, it would appear that such references are permissable: "a primary source may be used only to make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is verifiable by a reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages from the novel to describe the plot, but any interpretation of those passages needs a secondary source." While of course not drawing any comparison between the Scientology works of Hubbard and fiction, as is demonstrated by the example above, the reference to Hubbard's publication is acceptable. Claiming 'Scientologists believe the following' and then providing the original reference merely describes the belief and makes no interpretation of it, which is the function of secondary sources. One would need a secondary source to detail the ways in which Scientologists apply Hubbard's teachings: to record what those teachings are one may - provided it is clear, and not a matter for interpretation (i.e. 'What Hubbard meant by this is...') - use the primary source. BlackMarlin (talk) 17:16, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Protected edit requests

{{editprotected}}

Secondary source

The point is well taken. One secondary source is "What is Scientology?". For that particular "citation needed": What is Scientology?, pp.68-70, Bridge Publications Inc., 1998 ISBN 1573181226 (JDPhD (talk) 16:41, 26 December 2008 (UTC))

That is a primary source in that it is a Church of Scientology publication (Bridge being the in-house publishing firm). --Justallofthem (talk) 17:09, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Probable secondary source

O.K. As the "citation needed", here is another more probable secondary source from the Computer Science Dept.& Center for the Neural Basis of Cognition at Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA. written by David S. Touretzky stating specifically: "Scientology teaches that human beings are composed of three parts: the thetan (or spirit), the mind and the body." The address: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/pubs/sfn98/[5] (JDPhD (talk) 20:05, 26 December 2008 (UTC))

Oh, I do not think we need to go there - a paper allegedly presented somewhere by a noted critic of Scientology and self-hosted? No, thanks. The basic concepts of Scientology are presented in a number of published texts on NRMs. Here is one Google search. --Justallofthem (talk) 20:31, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

This looks fine. --Justallofthem (talk) 20:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

How about this one: on p. 60, it reads "...the Spirit of the person in Scientology, the real person, is the thetan, which inhabits a body. The body is controlled, up to a point, by the mind."

Mary Farrell Bednarowski, New Religions and the Theological Imagination in America, p. 60, Indiana University Press, 1995 ISBN 978-0253209528 (JDPhD (talk) 01:20, 27 December 2008 (UTC))

Grammar Issues

Under History, third sentence from the bottom:

"An organization called the Cult Awareness Network who once provided assistance former cult victims received more complaints concerning Scientology than any other group."

Tense conflict. Should be changed to "...receives more complaints..." or a date or time reference should be given at the end of the statement (i.e., "in 2008"). LittleNuccio (talk) 22:48, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 Not done The reference doesn't clarify when, and simply states the CAN received more Scientology complaints "in many months". It's also a primary source and can't be used to substantiate this claim. A consensus rewording should perhaps be discussed on this page. Euryalus (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

---

Under "Influences," the term "dianetics" is a proper noun and should therefore be capitalized. LittleNuccio (talk) 22:53, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 Done Euryalus (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

---

Referencing "Scientology as a commercial venture," "...it was announced at the Book Expo America a dianetics Racing Team..." should be changed to "it was announced at the Book Expo America that a Dianerics Racing Team...displays a large Dianetics logo" to conform to demonstrative pronoun and capitalization standards. LittleNuccio (talk) 22:59, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 Done Euryalus (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

---

In Beliefs and practices, "...were first formulated in Dianetics--Hubbard's earlier writings which precede Scientology" should be changed to "were first formulated in Dianetics, Hubbard's earlier writings which precede Scientology", or the antecedent should be removed entirely (as it is referenced by the link), to conform with Em dash standards. LittleNuccio (talk) 23:27, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 Done Euryalus (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

(Homophone) spelling error - 2nd paragraph under History- "led" to the organization's bankruptcy, not "lead" 96.231.102.180 (talk) 00:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

 Done Euryalus (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Introduction

The "citation needed" that appears just before the table of contents may be:

John A. Saliba, Signs of the Times, p. 30, Médiaspaul, 1996 ISBN 978-2894203262. It reads "...Scientology does not demand blind faith but endeavours to help the individual discover past experiences and shed the trauma and guilt (sin) which encumber".

(JDPhD (talk) 16:46, 27 December 2008 (UTC))

Typo in reference

"Thomas G. Whittle and Linda Amato. The continuing search for answers: Behind the Terror - A proble into masterminds of death and violence" please "proble -> probe" per the link given. LilHelpa (talk) 15:51, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

 Done Euryalus (talk) 22:45, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Edit request

Can someone with editing power please add {{Cults}} to the bottom of the page. Regardless of whether or not this actually counts as a cult, someone reading this article would be just as likely to want to read other cult articles as they would other religion articles, so from a usefulness standpoint the article should include both. Furthermore, since the definition of the group is in dispute, the page should either have both the cult nav-template and the religion nav-template or it should have neither. --74.12.151.53 (talk) 17:17, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

No, if someone wants to read about cults, they need only go to our article on cult and they will find all the further links they need there. --Justallofthem (talk) 17:36, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. This would be a disruptive -- and frankly POV-pushing -- edit. There isn't a consensus on Wikipedia to categorize Scientology as a cult, and we don't categorize articles based on what else we guess readers might want to read. Before this edit could be done, there would have to be such a consensus. There's already a wikilink to cult in the lead, and I see no need to further emphasize it. --GoodDamon 18:43, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

It's also POV to have the religion nav-template. We either should have both or neither. --74.12.151.53 (talk) 02:29, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't have any special feelings about scientology to be honest, but I do agree that to put one template but not the other is definitely POV. Scientology is regarded as a religion in some places, as a cult in others, and to acknowledge one definition but not the other is selective and certainly not truthful. So without discrimination towards anyone, I believe that the religion template must either be removed or be joined by the cult one. Sky83 (talk) 17:05, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

2nd edit request

Can someone please remove the {{Religion topics}} template? It's POV of us to include this with the religions when that point is under dispute. This could justifiably use {{Religion topics}}, {{Cults}}, or {{Confidence Tricks}}, and if we aren't going to be the most useful and include all of them, we should do the NPOV thing and not include any. --70.53.95.73 (talk) 09:45, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

See [6]. The template is fine by me, unless someone can demonstrate that the quotes given at the linked talk section are somehow flukes. As far as I can tell, classification as a religion has been the mainstream view in the US for 15 years, the State Department e.g. regularly referring to Scientology as a religion in its Religious Freedom Reports. Jayen466 10:35, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Granted, Jayen, but since Wikipedia is an international resource a US definition is not universally applicable. The point made above, about the continuing dispute, remains valid, US State Department statements notwithstanding. The debate continues worldwide. BlackMarlin (talk) 17:24, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Celebrities section

I think we agreed previously at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Scientology&oldid=261247925#WP:UNDUE.2C_WP:RS_issues_in_Celebrities_section that the Celebrities section has multiple issues. I propose we delete most of the section, retaining only the following:

Scientology has attracted several artists and entertainers, particularly Hollywood celebrities. Hubbard saw to the formation of a special church which would cater to artists, politicians, leaders of industry, sports figures and anyone with the power and vision "to create a better world."[176] There are eight so-called Celebrity Centres, although Hollywood is the largest. Entertainers — including John Travolta, Kirstie Alley, Lisa Marie Presley, Jason Lee, Isaac Hayes, Tom Cruise, and Katie Holmes — have generated considerable publicity for Scientology.

Any views? Jayen466 10:43, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

• I'm not particularly fond of the "a special church" phrasing, as it is rather ambiguous. Maybe changing it to "special locations created to deal with the special concerns of artists, ..." or something similar might work better? John Carter (talk) 16:31, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
  • You're right, it sounds a bit naff. We'd probably also better look for a book rather than a Scientology website to source this para. Jayen466 11:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

New proposed wording, now based on a scholarly source (Neusner):

Scientology operates a number of churches that are designated "Celebrity Centers". These centers are specifically designed to minister to the large number of celebrity Scientologists, who include Hollywood actors and entertainers such as John Travolta, Kirstie Alley, Jason Lee, Anne Archer, Lisa Marie Presley, Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes.

Any views? Jayen466 17:34, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Any objections to implementing this change? Jayen466 10:05, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

There having been previous agreement among several editors that the section is unsatisfactory, and no objections to this proposal since then, please implement. Jayen466 20:23, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Reference link dead

The link to an article entitled "Scientology church’s mark inscribed in N.M. desert scrub" at http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/35633.html is dead, as is the www.freenewmexican.com domain. I did some cursory searching for pages with photos, etc., and I suggest it be replaced with this story by the same author: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/26/AR2005112601065.html . Njm0 (talk) 03:25, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

The link is good, but even Leiby describes the quoted paragraph as an "intriguing theory". (He says, "Perhaps the signs are just a proud expression of the Scientology brand. But there are other, more intriguing theories. Former Scientologists ...") It is not our job here to air intriguing theories put out by former members, especially since the reliability of former members' statements has been a subject of considerable scholarly debate. I doubt it is due weight to present this in the way we are here, in the main article on Scientology. Anyone aware of other sources discussing the site? Other views? Jayen466 11:04, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay. I think the phrasing in the current version of the article, i.e. quoting the newspaper story which itself describes where the explanation comes from, is fine. Njm0 (talk) 17:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I am afraid I disagree with the whole presentation of material in this section, which amounts to "look at how silly these people are, believing in extraterrestrial reincarnation", etc. Are you aware how easy it is to write such a section for any mainstream religion? And what do we have here -- an entirely unsourced paragraph, followed by statements sourced to Rolling Stone magazine, LA Times, Washington Post etc, and the ubiquitous xenu.net effort. Not a scholarly source in sight for what is quite a sensitive theological subject. Does anybody think Encyclopedia Britannica or Encyclopedia Publishers like Gale would write and source this way?

What do you think of the following – sourced – description of Christianity, also based on testimony of a prominent apostate?

People born into Christianity are told to believe that non-Christians are doomed to boil in molten sulfur if they do not accept the "merciful" Christian deity, and that they are thus damned even if they have never even heard of the Christian God!

From the descriptions given to followers, the Christian deity suffers from many serious defects that followers are told to avoid. He/it is capricious, insecure, jealous, vindictive, sadistic, and cruel, and demands constant praise, sacrifice, adulation, and ego-support: otherwise, penalties for followers can be very severe. Followers are very fearful, always wondering if they have committed any infractions of the multitude of rules they have to follow. They are ruled by fear.

Followers are expected to believe the most incredible stories. For example that some 2,000 years ago a mid-East virgin was impregnated by a ghost of some sort, and as a result produced a son who could walk on water, raise the dead, turn water into wine, and multiply loaves of bread and fishes. All that in addition to tossing out demons. He expected and accepted a brutal, sadistic, death — and then he rose from the dead. That is not all. Adam and Eve, adherents are told, were the original humans, plunked down in a garden to start our species going. Followers are asked to believe that Adam and Eve had only two children, both sons — and one of them killed the other — yet somehow they produced enough people to populate the Earth, without incest, which is a big no-no! Then some prophet or other is said to have made the Earth stop turning, an army blew horns until a wall fell down, a guy named Moses made the Red Sea divide in two, and made frogs fall out of the sky. A noted critic has described Christianity's beliefs as less believable and less fun than The Wizard of Oz.

— Sourced to: James Randi, Why I Deny Religion, How Silly and Fantastic It Is, and Why I'm a Dedicated and Vociferous Bright

Do you think it is an encyclopedic description suitable for inclusion in our main article on Christianity? ;-) Jayen466 23:17, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Here is a scholarly source discussing the site: [7] Would make a good source here, if we decide to keep this in the main article, and is certainly useful for the Trementina Base article, where it isn't cited at present. Jayen466 11:24, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Editable working draft at User:John Carter/Scientology

I've seen in other cases where, when an article is locked from editing, individuals have created pages elsewhere which interested parties could edit to add material, experiment on phrasing, etc., and maybe achieving an agreement to a new version a bit quicker that way. I have now created a new page at User:John Carter/Scientology where anyone interested can do that.

I've recently myself tried to find a number of sources on the subject of Scientology in general and various people and subjects related to it. There are a lot of such sources, actually, although most of mine are from magazines and the like. I know J. Gordon Melton has written several books which devoted at least chapters to Scientology, and I'm fairly sure that the books he wrote would qualify as reputable secondary sources. I'm going to try to get some of them myself in the next few weeks, but unfortunately can't be anymore specific than that right now. John Carter (talk) 16:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks John. Earlier on, some editors put together a list of scholarly sources they thought worthwhile. I'll repeat it here:

• deChant/Jorgensen (in Neusner, Jacob (2003). World Religions In America. Westminster John Knox Press. ISBN 9780664224752.)]
• Wilson 1
• Wilson 2
• Melton: The Church of Scientology (2000, Signature Books) (I have a copy of that book and can contribute more material from it)
• Chryssides
• Gallagher
• Wallis
• Black
• Bromley & Cowan
• Rothstein in Lewis/Hammer (eds.)
• Lewis (ed.) (upcoming, Feb. 2009; this will be a major publication in this field)
• Zellner/Petrowsky (eds.): Sects, Cults, and Spiritual Communities: A Sociological Analysis. Praeger 1998 (available to subscribers on questia.com)
• Zellner William W. ( 1995). Countercultures: A sociological analysis. New York: St. Martin's Press
• Scholarly books on web countermovements, Internet controversies: [8][9]
• Corrigan, John (2008). The Oxford Handbook of Religion and Emotion. Oxford University Press US. ISBN 9780195170214. - A brief overview of Hubbard's tone scale.
• Lewis, James R. (1997). "Clearing the Planet: Utopian Idealism and the Church of Scientology". SYZYGY Journal of Alternative Religion and Culture Volume : numbers 1-2 Winter-Fall 1997. Mandeville Press. ISBN 0-914829-42-4. - a brief description of the history of Scientology and Dianetics and some of its core beliefs, and biographical data on L. Ron Hubbard.
• Introvigne, Massimo (2002). "Religious Minorities and Anti-Cult Activity in Italy in Comparative Perspective". International Perspectives on Freedom and Equality of Religious Belief. J. M. Dawson Institute of Church-State Studies, Baylor University. ISBN 929182-66-9. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: length (help) - a good reference for the religious nature of Scientology and why it was given religious recognition in Italy.
• Jennifer, Robinson (2002). "Scientology (Church of Scientology)". The Encyclopedia of Cults, Sects, and New Religions. Prometheus Books. ISBN 1-57392-888-7. - Description of Dianetics, Scientology training as a religious practice, as well as some historical information. Jayen466 18:12, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Non-reliable Sources and "A Piece of the Blue Sky"

I think that we have agreed that from now on we are only going to use reliable secundary sources. Just the same way many primary sources from the CoS have been removed; links to non-reliable secundary souces like Learnet and others should be prontly deleted. This should be the first step to renew the page.

Also links to anti-scientology books that have been written by non-reliable sources should be deleted. I just looked up A Piece of Blue Sky writer Jon Atack and the man is neither a journalist nor a schoolar. In fact his wikipage decribes him as:

Jonathan Caven-Atack (born 5 June, 1955) known as Jon Atack, is a British artist, published author and widely recognized as one of the most outspoken critics of the Church of Scientology.

I don't see how can a book written by one of the most outspoken critics of the Church of Scientology is a reliable secundary source. Bravehartbear (talk) 12:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, but to the extent that Atack's book has been quoted in reliable sources, we should be free to quote those sources quoting Atack. Jayen466 13:32, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

This goes both ways. Same goes for reliable sources that quote CoS primary sources. Bravehartbear (talk) 14:49, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Sure. Jayen466 16:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Jon Atack is also a scholar, and the book is definitely a scholarly resource. This seems to come up now and again, so let's be clear: When a scholarly book is referenced and used by the scholar's peers, including Stephen A. Kent, we can use that book as well. Cites to forums on Clambake and to Scientology websites do not equate at all. --GoodDamon 16:27, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Eugene V. Gallagher describes the book as an "autobiography and bitter indictment from a former member".

It's an "insider account", GoodDamon, and that's the very definition of a primary source, which we agreed we'd try to do without in this very contentious series of articles. As Bravehartbear points out, scholars also use Scientology publications as references; this does not make them scholarly sources. It is secondary sources that should establish due weight to be given to primary sources and the issues covered in them, not Wikipedia editors. Jayen466 16:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Well said, is time to get away from double standards. Bravehartbear (talk) 02:45, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Insider accounts aren't always primary sources, but this merits deeper examination than I initially thought. I'm going to take a look at the book and at other scholars who reference it. If it's generally held in high regard, then I don't think there's a valid argument for removing it simply because it was written by a former member. --GoodDamon 04:00, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Please read the definitions of a primary source as given in WP:PSTS. Including the footnotes. For reference, WP:PSTS states,

The key point about a primary source is that it offers an insider's guide to an event, a period of history, a work of art, a political decision, and so on.

The footnotes appended to this state,

"Definitions of primary sources:

* The University of Nevada, Reno Libraries define primary sources as providing "an inside view of a particular event". They offer as examples: original documents, such as autobiographies, diaries, e-mail, interviews, letters, minutes, news film footage, official records, photographs, raw research data, and speeches; creative works, such as art, drama, films, music, novels, poetry; and relics or artifacts, such as buildings, clothing, DNA, furniture, jewelry, pottery.

* The University of California, Berkeley library offers this definition: "Primary sources enable the researcher to get as close as possible to what actually happened during an historical event or time period. Primary sources were either created during the time period being studied, or were created at a later date by a participant in the events being studied (as in the case of memoirs) and they reflect the individual viewpoint of a participant or observer."

There is no reason why Wikipedia should reference this primary source more or less than the existing secondary literature. Do you think otherwise? If yes, why? One thing we all agreed on was that we need to move away from mining primary sources, towards reflecting significant views in proportion to their published prominence among the most reliable sources. Jayen466 08:45, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. The text of PSTS has changed since I last read it. Oh well, that happens. I must say, I have concerns about the current version essentially negating the use of scholarly material by anyone actually involved in a given topic, but that's not an argument for this page. By the current standards, you are absolutely right, and A Piece of Blue Sky needs to go. --GoodDamon 14:53, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

OT9

The following sentence is inappropriately sourced: "Church management has promised to release a ninth OT level once certain expansion goals are met.[110]" I suggest we remove it. Any views? Jayen466 17:52, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

The cite is a bad one, and definitely needs to go. However, the Church has made that promise, so I would be interested in finding an alternate cite before deciding to remove it. --GoodDamon 03:49, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Let's agree on a time frame then. How many days would you like to have to find a reliable secondary source? Jayen466 08:48, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

As the page is locked, at the moment, that's an academic question. But once the page is unlocked, I would say give it three days with a {{cn}} tag, and if no one has turned up a citation from a good secondary source, either delete it or discuss whether or not it's appropriate to cite a primary source for it. --GoodDamon 14:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

We've had edits done by admins before; John Carter, who's been contributing to this talk page is an admin; so I am confident, once we have agreement on the talk page, we can have edits done quite quickly. Jayen466 15:05, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

• Well, there is a source here: [10]. I suggest we reword and resource the sentence as follows: "It has been rumored that additional OT levels, said to be based on material written by Hubbard long ago, will be released at some appropriate point in the future.
• Okay? Jayen466 17:17, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

The sentence is a little wordy, but I can't think of an alternative at the moment, so I'm going to support that change. --GoodDamon 19:04, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

Could a sysop please insert the following:

It has been rumored that additional OT levels, said to be based on material written by Hubbard long ago, will be released at some appropriate point in the future."<ref>Lewis, James R.; Hammer, Olav (2007). ''The Invention of Sacred Tradition'', Cambridge, UK, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0521864798, p. 36.</ref>

to replace the sentence "Church management has promised to release a ninth OT level once certain expansion goals are met.[110]" in the section "Reincarnation and confidential materials". This is to improve the sourcing of this information, from a private website to a published scholarly work. Thanks. Jayen466 23:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

 Done, thanks for the detailed request. --Elonka 19:32, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

OR?

The following paragraph seems to be substantially OR; to the extent that it isn't, it duplicates material already presented earlier:

In the early Scientology publication, The Creation of Human Ability: A Handbook for Scientologists, Hubbard says that "It [Scientology] is not a psycho-therapy nor a religion." Since its initial publication, however, the text has been altered to remove this statement. The Church of Scientology now pursues an extensive public relations campaign for the recognition of Scientology as a religion. An argument often used by the church is that all doubts of whether Scientology is a religion were put to rest when it was given tax exemption in the United States. The IRS is quoted as saying that "[Scientology is] operated exclusively for religious and charitable purposes." However, it is important to note the circumstances under which the tax-exempt agreement was made; it was reported by the New York Times that multiple intimidation tactics were used in an attempt to influence the IRS into granting tax exemption. Tactics used included hiring private investigators to look into the private lives of IRS officials, as well as funding a whistle-blower organization to gather incriminating information against the IRS.

Any objection to losing it? Jayen466 19:14, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you can possibly conclude that is OR. It's all properly sourced, and doesn't engage in synthesis. I see a problem with the "...important to note..." portion -- that's pure opinion -- but the rest of it is simply statements of fact sourced appropriately. The one statement that is missing a citation could easily be provided with one, and the sentence with the opinion in it can be shortened to exclude the opinion. --GoodDamon 03:45, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

On closer inspection, there are other portions that need to be fixed to remove opinions as well, but the statements of fact are properly supported. It's a paragraph that needs editing, not deletion. --GoodDamon 03:50, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Let's look at it in detail. First, we have yet another primary source quote, unsupported by any reliable, published secondary source preoccupying itself with this passage in this publication. It is original research, pure and simple. Next, we have an unsupported assertion that the primary source has been altered, with "citation needed". (The Rothstein source linked above mentions alterations of source texts, but not in this context.) There follow two uncited sentences, continuing the OR argument. The penultimate sentence is blatant OR, pr "It is important to note". Important in whose eyes? The Wikipedia editor's. Show me reliable sources that make the argument made by this paragraph, and then we can perhaps agree to present it, with attribution, in proportion to its prominence among the most reliable sources. Remember, we are supposed to summarise the most reliable published sources, not the OR content of xenu.net forum posts. At present, there is no evidence that the most reliable published sources make this a focus of concern. To demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented. Cheers, Jayen466 09:00, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

The first sentence is a direct quote of the type that is allowed from primary sources. The second sentence was initially sourced to different editions of The Creation of Human Ability because it is easy to compare two editions and see the differences, which means it is easily verifiable. However, I would be surprised if a reliable secondary source didn't exist for that somewhere, since the point at which Scientology became a religion is a matter of much journalistic debate. Why not try to find a source for it rather than delete it? Should take two seconds with a news search engine. As for the next two sentences which you say lack citations, not every sentence in a paragraph requires a citation. A single citation to any one of the many news articles covering the Church of Scientology's public relations campaigns will suffice for both of those sentences, although they should be rewritten for NPOV and prose quality. The next sentence I have already agreed with you on; the "important to note" section of it ought to be removed. The other half of the sentence is fine, however. It's a statement of fact cited to the New York Times (again, not every sentence requires a cite, and that NYT piece covers both the preceding sentences). I know it's more work, but it's better to fix paragraphs that have issues but are otherwise usable, rather than simply throw them out. --GoodDamon 15:27, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Why is this anything else than double standards, GD? What I hear you saying sounds like this: "We can quote Hubbard's primary sources when it suits us, and develop arguments from his writings, based on our own evaluation, but Scientologists mustn't quote Hubbard when it suits them." Apart from the obvious lack of fairmindedness, this whole effort misses the point of what we are supposed to do here. We are supposed to reflect arguments made by others in reliable sources. Secondary sources on this topic look like this, for example: [11]. Do you have a problem trusting the existing sources, and think we have to do better than them? I repeat, there is no secondary source given here that directly supports the information as it is presented, and WP:OR clearly places the onus of providing such sources on those wishing to include the material. I suggest you or others bring these sources, or accept that this is indefensible OR. Jayen466 16:20, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

It's not a double standard. I would hope the majority of the citations in this article go to quality secondary sources. There are select -- and rare -- circumstances, such as non-controversial direct quotes, where a primary source may suffice. If you don't think the first sentence's citation qualifies for such an exception, that's fine. Personally, I'm open to arguments from both sides on the matter, but it's a relatively small component of the paragraph in question, and I'm by no means attached to it. As for the rest, which of them isn't a secondary source? The New York Times? The St. Petersburg Times? There's bad prose in there, but it's not OR. The text is supported by those sources -- and could even be expanded upon, based on those sources. Frankly, this fact is unavoidable: There is controversy about the tax status of the Church of Scientology, and this has been frequently reported on in the press. This paragraph concerns that. It should be rewritten and better sourced, but it should not be deleted. --GoodDamon 18:58, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't think the first sentence qualifies as a "non-controversial direct quote", since the matter clearly is controversial, as you point out yourself. In addition, according to our article on the Church of Scientology, the first Church of Scientology was incorporated in 1953, using that name, a "Church", so clearly there was some awareness of a religious dimension to Scientology by the time the referenced book appeared in 1954, saying, so we say, Scientology was "not a religion". And do we give the context of that statement? No. The whole argument laid out by us here is misleading. The original context in Hubbard's book was,

"Society, thirsting for more control of more people substitutes religion for the spirit, the body for the soul, an identity for the individual and science and data for truth. In this direction lies insanity, increasing slavery, less knowingness, greater scarcity and less society. Scientology has opened the gates to a better World. It is not a psycho-therapy nor a religion. It is a body of knowledge which, when properly used, gives freedom and truth to the individual."

The way I read it, Hubbard critiques conventional religion, and is anxious to assert that Scientology is not one of those, while at the same time presenting Scientology as a personal path to freedom and truth. These are religious goals, are they not? All of this reminds me of Marx's "opium for the people" statement which is similarly quoted out of context. Marx actually said,

Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people.

This was at a time when opium was widely used for pain relief. But back to Hubbard. Googling for this, it is quite clear what sort of source the inclusion of this came from: [12] Anything in google books? No, thought so. Anything in google scholar? No, thought so. Anything in google news? No, thought so. As for the rest of the paragraph, much of it duplicates material we already have, in the History section, and further up, in the same section. The point is, I shouldn't have to spend an hour surfing and two hours arguing to demonstrate that this is poorly sourced. Editors should please just use reliable published secondary sources to begin with. Jayen466 19:49, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see that you had responded here until now. When I said "non-controversial direct quote" I was referring to the lack of controversy concerning whether a given statement was made or not. There is no controversy around this quote because no one disputes that Hubbard wrote it. Now, your interpretation of the full quote is an interesting one, but is also entirely your own interpretation. It would be better to simply have the full text of the quote in the article and leave interpretation up to the reader. But again, I have no problem with excising it completely. As for the rest of the paragraph, again, what poor sources are you talking about? It is sourced to the New York Times and the St. Petersburg Times. You accurately point out that it touches on issues explored in another section, although it is not redundant with that section because it goes into different details. So I wouldn't be opposed to incorporating the material from this paragraph into the other section to expand it, but I am definitely opposed to deleting it based on the notion that the entire paragraph is poorly sourced, when it demonstrably isn't. --GoodDamon 18:18, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

My point is that the paragraph synthesises an argument that is not present in this form in any of its sources. This argument goes like this: "Scientology is not a religion. It used to be quite open about the fact that it wasn't one. But then, for reasons of expediency, they decided to cloak themselves as a religion. They covered their tracks, changing texts where they stated they weren't a religion. Then they got themselves recognised as a religion. How did they do that, given that they clearly aren't one? Well, they used threats and dirty tricks against employees of the agency that makes those sorts of decision. In this way, the forced the hand of the United States, the mightiest nation on earth, to recognise them as a religion."

Given that the primary-source quote is only used to support this argument in unreliable sources, we shouldn't make use of it, and at any rate, I note that you are agreeable to excising it altogether, so let's do that. The NY Times article deserves a mention somewhere, but even that turned out to be based on a false premise, as discussed above. And it is already mentioned, and given undue weight, in the History section. We do not need to rehash it here. As for the rest – not that there is much left – let's look at where it could best go. Cheers, Jayen466 19:26, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

• Unless there are further concerns, I'll raise an editprotected request to delete this paragraph. Jayen466 16:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Minor grammar change

Can a sysop amend the Recognition in other countries section to say continued instead of continues for the german government ruling? Geoff Plourde (talk) 07:27, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

make protect notice less obtrusive

{{editprotected}} COuld an admin add the small atribute to the full protection notice to make it less obtrusive?--Ipatrol (talk) 23:48, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

done --SB_Johnny | ^talk 15:36, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Error

{{editprotected}}

I think this page has been frozen by Administrator. due to me not seeing an "edit page" under the article, never the less under "dispute as a religion" it says "David G. Bromley of Virginia Commonwealth University characterizes Scientology as "a 'quasi-religious therapy' that resembles Freudian 'depth psychology' while also drawing upon Buddhism, Hinduism and the ancient, heretical offshoot of Christianity known as Gnosticism ". I find the suggestion that Gnosticisim is a "heretical" off shoot of Christianity misleading. the citation for the mentioned quotation would be accesable if it was not seemingly in a book (acessable to almost anyone knowing english and able to read the Quotation). Gnosticisim according to some sources apeared before Christianity [13], even if Gnosticisim came after Christianity with that same logic Protestants are herretical to the papacy and Christianity is herretical to Judaism. may I also add that Mandaeism a variation of gnosticism reveres John the baptist more than Jesus [14] [15]. Could somone change the error to "David G. Bromley of Virginia Commonwealth University characterizes Scientology as a 'quasi-religious therapy' that resembles Freudian 'depth psychology' while also drawing upon Buddhism, Hinduism and Gnosticism". Please some one with editing powers please fix this problem thanks. --Zaharous (talk) 01:49, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

 Done. --Elonka 19:35, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Was that a paraphrase or a quote? If it was a quote, it's now a misquote (though perhaps "[...]" could be added?). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 12:49, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I have no Idea, the reference looked like it was in a book, Its seems inacessable to those who lack it, nevertheless if it was a direct quote it might be misleading. I don't know if the "heretical offshoot of Christianity" part was injected by the writer to help readers make sense of Gnosticism or if David G. Bromley actually said it. I think many Wikipedia Writers paraphrase in their own words and directly quote people, I think it is unknowable without further research. Either way I think it is now at least a paraphrase. --Zaharous (talk) 14:12, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Scientology Growth

Scientology has been growing in size throughout it's history, mostly because everybody who has tried it has said, "it works." it isn't a cult as most people suggest it is a fast growing religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spaniard78 (talk • contribs) 05:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a specific comment on content? This isn't a forum for discussion of the article's topic. --GoodDamon 05:39, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Restored possible good-faith complaint about undue weight by IP

Guys can we please take the thing out of how thetans are brainwashed you should include it but why make it the firts thing you see. if this keeps going on im going to edit the christianity article to include the guy in a whale and talking snake in the first paragaugh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.230.105 (talk) 14:52, 10 January 2009

The story of Jonah and the whale and the story of the serpent in the garden do not factor largely in scholarly research and investigative journalism about Christianity, so placing them in the lead would be undue weight. In contrast, even the most positive of scholarly works on Scientology acknowledge the controversies surrounding what essentially amounts to a hidden creation myth, and almost all journalism on the subject makes some mention of it. Personally, I wish the media would devote some attention to other areas, because other areas interest me from an academic standpoint, but it's not up to me to decide which information to focus on. When the preponderance of sources regard something as important, it belongs in the lead. --GoodDamon 23:22, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I think the sentence "It is believed that thetans were brainwashed by these extraterrestrial cultures as a means of population control." is needlessly weird and opaque. In terms of media coverage, I think the confidentiality/copyright issue surrounding the Xenu materials is at least as notable as the actual content. Even so, I don't think this belongs in the second para of the lede, and it takes up too big a proportion of the summary of Scientology beliefs in the lede.

Also, while we're talking about the lede, the sentence "Time Magazine describes Scientology as "a hugely profitable global racket that survives by intimidating members and critics in a Mafia-like manner."" is off. That Time article was published almost 20 years ago ... a lot can happen in 20 years, cf. the Anderson report and the Australian high court judgment 20 years later. All in all, the lede in its present state is truly hideous. Jayen466 23:52, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Certainly there are newer pieces that give more detailed analyses of Scientology's business practices, although do bear in mind that while old, the article reflects a similar sentiment to that which is expressed today by investigative journalists. In any event, I agree that the current lead is pretty ugly and could definitely stand a rewrite, as the prose is bad (and somewhat pointy). --GoodDamon 00:18, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Overall, the level of media criticism has clearly decreased since 1991. There are sources saying so. For example, there is an interesting analysis of more recent news coverage of Scientology in "Religion in the News", the newsletter of the Leonard E. Greenberg Center for the Study of Religion in Public Life at Trinity College, Hartford Connecticut, here. The Chicago Sun-Times ran a story in 2005 entitled "'TomKat' casts spotlight back on Scientology – Criticism fades, but some still see it as a money-making cult" which was typical of a number of more recent articles. This Chicago Sun-Times article is online in a number of other places as well – but note that the version on rickross.com seems to miss the end bit, while religionnews.blog adds lots of floating boxes with their own information to the article. The article features comments from a couple of scholars (Bromley and Melton) and exemplifies how controversies can be covered neutrally. It also shows that in good reporting it is standard to quote both sides of a debate, something that we still fail to do in the last paragraph of our lede (which is otherwise much improved). Perhaps the CST article would be a useful source here; it certainly mentions that the Church rejects the cult label, it adds supporting opinion by outsiders, and quotes a church member saying that people go on about Xenu to make them look weird. All relevant points IMO. Jayen466 11:13, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Jayen466, may I ask what specifically bothers you about the last paragraph in the lead? Looking at it now, it appears we may have some WP:SYN problems. ←Spidern→ 13:39, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I think you're right, twice we have half a dozen refs to back up a synthesised statement (you've convinced me now). In addition, the presentation in that paragraph seems very one-sided to me. Let's look at it, and the para preceding it:

One controversial aspect of Scientology beliefs is the idea that thetans lived among extraterrestrial cultures before becoming trapped in bodies on Earth.[9] The belief of extraterrestrial origins is not taught to new members, but is only presented after members have advanced through the ranks of Scientology.[citation needed] Another controversial belief held among Scientologists is that psychiatry and psychology are destructive and abusive fields, which must be abolished.[10][11]

Former members, journalists, courts, and authorities in multiple countries have described Scientology as a cult [13][14][15][16][17][18] and an unscrupulous commercial enterprise. Critics claim that the organization has a history of harassing its critics and abusing the trust of its members.[16][18][19][20][17][21] In 1991, Time magazine described Scientology as "a hugely profitable global racket that survives by intimidating members and critics in a Mafia-like manner."[16] Scientology has consistently litigated most actions which it has perceived to be threatening. One major litigation point is that of copyright infringement.[22][23]

Now let's compare that to the 2005 Chicago Sun-Times summary of roughly the same controversies:

The Los Angeles-based church has battled its critics for years with a series of expensive lawsuits, fighting to clear its name and keep its secret writings off the Internet. It also fought with the Internal Revenue Service for years to receive tax-exempt status. It won that battle, and its officials reject suggestions that it's more of a money-making venture than religion. "It remains one of the more controversial new religious movements, but I think all of the more controversial groups have decreased the tension with larger society over the last decade or two," said David G. Bromley, a Virginia Commonwealth University professor who has studied Scientology. "There are still a number of countries where it's not accepted as a religion, but it has been in the United States. I think the level of tension is certainly declining." [...]

Some of the fundamental beliefs of Scientologists are laid out in its publications: Man is an immortal spiritual being. His experience extends well beyond a single lifetime. His capabilities are unlimited, even if not presently realized. The aims of Scientology, according to the church, are a world without insanity, without criminals, without war. It is a religion fiercely opposed to many other mental health practices, including psychiatry. On its Web site, the church refers to "other methods of alleged mental science" and says other practices "treat man as a 'thing' to be conditioned, not as a spiritual being who can improve enormously." Scientologists strictly oppose mind-altering drugs, including psychiatric drugs -- such as Paxil. Scientology believes people are basically good and, with Dianetics, offers tools to improve. But it goes beyond just self-help. It is a religion complete with churches, Sunday services and a detailed theology. "The idea is that at some point in the prehistoric past, the soul, which is the real us, the essence of what we are, falls into the body, falls into material existence," said Melton. "After a period of time, it moves from body to body, and it forgets who it is. So the object of the religion is to allow the soul to remember its true nature and then begin to function as a free soul." [...]

Controversy worldwide

For years, controversies dogged Scientology. In Germany, it's viewed not as a religion but as a money-making scheme. Scientologists have been banned from public service, even forced to remove their children from public schools. The French National Assembly in 2000 unanimously passed a bill to make it easier to crack down on what the government considered cults, including Scientology. And in 2001, President Bush disparaged it by saying: "I have a problem with the teachings of Scientology being viewed on the same par as Judaism or Christianity." The church rejects the cult label, and some experts in the United States agree. Said Virginia Commonwealth's Bromley: "Cult is a four-letter word for a religion you don't like." Another controversy surrounds stories being circulated about the purported secret beliefs of Scientologists, including claims their theology traces back to a space-age story about an evil galactic warlord named Xenu sending souls to Earth 75 million years ago. Ahmad, the local Scientology official, said those claims are "bogus" and "taken out of context" by opponents and critics of Scientology. Those claims also offend Scientologists, she said.

"It's to make us look weird, and we're not," Ahmad said. The biggest strike against the church, some say, is its newness. "What is particularly true in America, when new things come along, if they are significantly different in any way, we as a culture test them out," Melton said. "Nobody is picketing Christian Science [anymore]. Nobody is calling them a cult."

In contrast to this tapestry of opinion, we are only presenting the critics' views. I feel we should not cite extremely harsh criticism without giving the Church some virtual "right of reply", as exemplified in the above, or indeed citing other notable, mainstream commentators who have taken a somewhat different view. In addition, we should be careful to reflect present-day published opinions in proportion to their prominence today, as per WP:RS, and be mindful of giving too much weight to outdated sources. Jayen466 14:31, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

• By the way, did you notice? The second part of the CST headline, "Criticism fades, but some still see it as a money-making cult", which is prominently displayed in HighBeam and expressly mentioned in the scholarly ["Religion in the News" newsletter, is missing both in the rickross.com version and the religionnewsblog version, where the headline is simply "'TomKat' casts spotlight back on Scientology". Jayen466 21:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
  • What do you think of the current version? ←Spidern→ 13:30, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Even more Scientology History

I just read "Bare-faced Mesiah" [16] and no where does it say that: "Because of a sale of assets resulting from the bankruptcy of the research organization, Hubbard no longer owned the rights to the name "Dianetics"."

Hubbard never lost the rights to Dianetics because the book states:

Page 200 [17] "Both Purcell and Hubbard claimed ownership and during the bitter feud..."

Page 202 [18] "Hubbard would introduce Scientology as a logical extension of Dianetics, but it was a development of undeniable expedience, since it ensured he would be able to stay in business even if the courts eventually awarded control of Dianetics and its valuable copyrights to 'that little flatulence', the hated Don Purcell."

Page 218[19] "For Hubbard, the best news of 1954 came towards the end of the year when he heard from Wichita that Don Purcell was giving up the fight for control of Dianetics."

This proves that there was a never a sale of assets and Hubbard never lost the rights to Dianetics. So please someone delete the sentence in question. Bravehartbear (talk) 12:30, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Protection level reduced

In the hope that editors of this page can improve the article without edit warring, I have reduced the full protection to semi-protection, so that registered users may edit the article. Please make sure all edits to this controversial article have consensus support. Please do not use "lack of consensus" as an excuse to edit war. Be calm, cool and courteous. Happy editing,--Aervanath talks like a mover, but not a shaker 17:24, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

CAN

The section on the Cult Awareness Network, at the end of our history section, seems misplaced. It also has content issues, as discussed before: #More_Scientology_hystory. I'm thinking somewhere in the Controversies section ... suggestions? Jayen466 01:10, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Why exactly do you feel that it is misplaced? The section is arranged chronologically and represents notable events in the organization's history. The CAN happenings are an event, not a criticism. ←Spidern→ 13:24, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Time magazine quote

Bravehartbear claimed (erroneously) that we had come to an agreement on the inclusion of this sourced quote. Jayen466 improved the quote by specifying the time that it was reported. What are the opinions here about inclusion, and should it be in the lead? Let's try to reach an definite consensus here. ←Spidern→ 13:23, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Possible improper source

In this edit, Bravehartbear adds a source hosted at neuereligion.de, mirrored at this domain which is owned by the Church of Scientology International. In the header, it describes the material as "A reference work presented by the Church of Scientology International." This may be considered as a primary source, as GoodDamon (talk · contribs) contended in earlier discussion. ←Spidern→ 13:37, 14 January 2009 (UTC)