Talk:Bardylis

Barliris could be Bardyllis

Tertulian on baraliris Tertullian is the only one mentioning this character.And he quotes Callisthenes.

"and I further learn from Callisthenes that it was from the indication of a dream that Baraliris the Illyrian stretched his dominion from the Molossi to the frontiers of Macedon."

He probably is Bardyllis that attacked epirus and macedon after Dionysius I of Syracuse proded and aided him as to change the political situation in Greece.There is no baraliris charakter anywhere else and the acts described in Tertullian refer to the assault by Bardyllis.Megistias (talk) 22:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The events are described in Diodorus Siculus book 15.map of the attack.Megistias (talk) 22:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Diodorus Siculus Hist.Bilbiotheca historica (lib. 1-20)Book 15 chapter 13 section 2 line 4- section 3 line 1--He sent to his allies 2000 soldiers and 500 Greek armors and the Illyrians gave them to the best of their troops and mixed the soldiers(the Greeks) with those of their own. The article is lacking and is full of errorsMegistias (talk) 19:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Bardhyllis= Bardh(white)+ yllis(star), Albania(Albanoi=white) Albania was derived from Bardh=white=Albanoi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.236.122.237 (talk) 22:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no established connection with Illyrians to albanians.Megistias (talk) 22:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I have added the Albanian name for 'Bardyllis' which is Bardhyll which literally means 'white star' (bardh=white, yll=star) hopefully this is ecceptable and if not please give a reason as to why. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Realmadrid123 (talk • contribs) 14:32, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Hello, I have created the article Bardhyl about the Albanian given name. The article Bardhyl will be the place to explain the origin of the Albanian name and its usage. For this article Bardyllis editors are removing reference to the Albanian name because as far as can be determined, the Albanian name Bardhyl was re-introduced, and giving the Albanian name of Bardyllis is not pertinent according to Wikipedia manual of style. We do not give the Serbian name for Bardyllis either. Also that etymology for Bardyllis meaning "white star" is supported by what reputable linguists? It appears to be a folk etymology. A is putting the smack down (talk) 00:31, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Dionysius aspirations

Bardyllis united the illyrians and attacked Greece defeating Macedonia and imposing a tax of submission in 385 he advanced still more deeply in Greece making attacks in Epirus as well. These attacks were coordinated from the Dionysius I of Syracuse a Tyrant that wanted to change the Molossian king with Alcetas I of Epirus that was exiled .He Intended to control the Ionian sea.The "Celtic" type army of Bardyllis had been strengthened with 2000 Greek soldiers of magna grecia and 500 bronze thoraxes for their Illyrians. The Epirotes were surprised and lost 15.000 men. At the possession of Epirus the Bardyllis acquired thousands bronze thoraxes and hoplite shields from epirotes that fought with the hoplite way .He began training his army in the hoplite way of battle. Simultaneously he overcame the king [Ptolemy of Aloros]] ruling Macedon that tried to free Macedon from the tax of submission. Afterwards he won his successor Perdiccas III of Macedon killing him. Perdiccas III of Macedon was the father of Phillipp , father of Alexander the Great. When the Spartans learned what happened to the Epirotes and that Dodona was defiled by the illyrians Agesilaus ventured against them and destroyed them completely forcing them to leave Epirus and Macedon.

The events are described by diodorus of Siculus book 15.

Can someone get a secondary source on this? The event doesn't seem to be that important to modern historiansMegistias (talk) 19:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Folk etymology

Various IPs and short-lived accounts have repeatedly attempted to add an obvious folk etymology to the article, linking the name Bardyllis to modern Albanian. In this [1] edit, it was attempted to back this claim up with a ref to Google Translator. Let's clarify this once and for all: the existence of such a phrase in modern Albanian is beside the point, and references about that are worthless. What you would need is a reliable academic source actually proposing the link between this modern phrase and the ancient name. Such a source is unlikely to exist – it is quite obvious to any linguistically informed reader that such a link would be untenable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

The reference for etymology white star in the book An Albanian historical grammar Author Stuart Edward Mann Publisher Buske, 1977 Original from the University of California Length 239 pages link[2] Aigest (talk) 12:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

the article was absolutely terrible. Apparently written by somebody who has heard about this concept of "citing references" and trying to emulate it. I have tried to put it on its feet a little bit. The etymology thing is a random factoid about folk etymologies handed around in Albania, and it is perfectly worthless without context. --dab (𒁳) 12:58, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

"King Whitestar" is folk etymology if there ever was such a thing. The very notion that an ancient name could have an etymology in a modern language is sheer nonsense. All the more so when we can't even be sure if the languages are even related. Athenean (talk) 15:02, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

FPS asked for academic sources. He got three. Now the short lived accounts are becoming long lived. It's gotta be now FPS, Dab, and Athenean's burden of proof that this is folk etimology, which so far is only in their minds. --Sulmues ^(talk) 15:57, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Athenean and Dab can you bring a reference for your deductions? You can't just change the wording of three sources because you consider it a folk etymology.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 17:19, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

None of your sources claim that this is the etymology, because that is of course impossible. Ancient names cannot have etymologies based on modern languages. So if anything, the burden of proof is on you to prove that "White Star" is the etymology og Bardyllis. Good luck with that. Athenean (talk) 17:30, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

It seems like it is also impossible for you to find sources that this is folk etimology. --Sulmues ^(talk) 17:39, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

It's spelled "etymology", by the way. Athenean (talk) 17:44, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I'll then kindly ask you to be the reviewer of Skanderbeg, when I'll relist it, since the current one disclaims any opinions on language. --Sulmues ^(talk) 17:50, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Peresadyes

Peresadyes were Thracians as the latest archeological data dictate. Thracian origin ref . Please do not insert "illyrian" POV by removing referenced facts diff, diff, diff . You have done it more than 3 times. Megistias (talk) 13:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

There are 2 theories, add the Thracian theory too, but don't remove the Illyrian theory and don't disrupt the prose which is much more encyclopedic than the previous one.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 13:15, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

No their Origin was Thracian as archeology exhibits. Your POV is typical and unacceptable.Megistias (talk) 13:26, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

"Bardyillis" etymology

I wish the Albanian patriots could forget about the Iron Age for five minutes and try to get their economy on track instead: Patriotism is love of the homeland. I see little love of or benefit for the homeland in swamping the internet with crappy pseudo-etymologies. --dab (𒁳) 13:02, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I wish admins not to have this kind of behavior and mentality. Aigest (talk) 14:48, 28 September 2010 (UTC)b

Dab if you are trying to bait the Albanian "nationalists" by calling valid sources "pseudo etymologists" and by inviting them to improve their economy, you might achieve your objective, because they might say something you will block them for. What you will not achieve is to remove valid sources that claim what you don't agree with. Can you please discuss sources here rather than remove references? --Sulmues ^(talk) 15:55, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I have yet to see a reliable source that the "star" etymology is taken seriously by any actual linguist. The one I see cited, saying that it is linked "by tradition", isn't ascribing that tradition to serious linguists. Based on common sense, and on what we know about the state of knowledge about Illyrian and about the supposed Illyrian–Albanian continuity, it is plain obvious that this is a folk etymology, and that no serious linguist in their right mind could possibly see a rational basis for assuming such an etymology as a matter of fact. In these circumstances, the principle of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary sourcing" applies, and stands against this etymology. "Folk etymology" goes back into the article, as far as I'm concerned. [By the way, I found a snippet hint on google that Krahe may have some actual discussion of the name somewhere, but I haven't been able to follow up on that yet.] Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:54, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

(Oh, and, by the way, the second author cited, Hodgkinson, doesn't seem to be a linguist, but a "Journalist, writer, Naval Intelligence Officer and Balkan expert", and the third footnote lacks author attribution – make sure you find the author of the actual piece of text, not just the editor or whatever of the whole book.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:01, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

 Done Alain Ducellier[3].--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 18:11, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Ok, a decent enough author, but not an historical linguist either. BTW, at the risk of a bit of OR: actual historical linguistics of Albanian seems to reconstruct a root for bardhe that would have IE and prehistoric Albanian *g in the middle, not *d, as the "Bardyllis" connection would seem to entail [4]. Given this little stumbling block, can you please confirm you have actually read the Mann book, beyond that google snippet, and can vouch for whatever else he says or doesn't say about the name? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:42, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I can vouch for reading that chapter and part of the next one. I could get the book again in a couple of weeks and scan the whole page if that's necessary. Btw I was troubled by the same OR too and then I found that some Latin sources name him as Bargulis/Bargulus(which led me to even more OR).--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 19:03, 28 September 2010 (UTC)