Talk:Chinese civilization

i was looking for People's Republic of China

i was looking for People's Republic of China when i typed china in the search box. Shouldn't wikipedia send readers to that article when someone types china? Syrtis from regnum online 666 (talk) 12:46, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

After all, the C in BRIC means People's Republic of China — Preceding unsigned comment added by Syrtis from regnum online 666 (talk • contribs) 12:53, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

There have been many discussions on this topic. Redirecting this page to the PRC would violate WP:NPOV. See WP:NC-CHN#Political NPOV. You may want to look through the archives on this talk page for more information.--Tærkast (Communicate) 15:00, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Go read the "One China Policy". There is only one China, and the only China that matters is PRC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.81.233.159 (talk) 18:14, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I resolutely support comrade 72.81.233.159! The Sound and the Fury (talk) 02:51, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I assume both of the last two comments are facetious. Homunculus (duihua) 00:14, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Of course, unless they want to drag up risk another POV war again.--Tærkast (Communicate) 17:06, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

In either case, it would be best to read WP:NC-CHN#Political NPOV and realise personal opinions don't/shouldn't factor into Wikipedia articles, and that this issue has been discussed to death.--Tærkast (Communicate) 17:09, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedians have made their rules and processes much more important than anything else. Nowhere is the more evident than in Wikipedia's No China Policy. Mostlyharmless (talk) 10:20, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

The problem doesn't come from Wikipedia's policies but most likely from the fact that most users here are either from the ROC or ROC-friendly. There's problably next to no PRC users contributing to the China/PRC's pages on Wikipedia (if only because these pages are all blocked in China). So that's why the "ROC = China" POV is being given a massive undue weight on Wikipedia. Laurent (talk) 10:30, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

so what does it matter that an absolute IDIOT (who also happens to be a sock) started this thread? editors should reserve the right to remove any such similar post in the future. these types of threads now constitute nothing but forums, and hence should not exist. --HXL's Roundtable and Record 13:59, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

This is what happens. One group of editors decides that the debate about content is over, and tries to shut down comments to the contrary. This is very relevant to Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia. Also, WP:NPA Mostlyharmless (talk) 00:17, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

well do you want WP editors to on interminably debating? I am a PRC supporter So long as two states both officially claim to be China, this is a closed issue. Additionally, socks are not allowed to contribute. The sock should have realised that Brazil, Russia, India, and South Africa recognise the PRC as the only legitimate government for China, and hence C in BRICS means PRC. A short-sighted idiot, indeed.

WikiLaurent, you would be correct if you said "next to no PRC users...on English Wikipedia". Most articles on Chinese-related (that is, native language=Chinese) topics are much longer on the ZH-WIKI than on EN-WIKI. --HXL's Roundtable and Record 00:34, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

The original post that catalyzed this discussion was arguing that China should redirect to PRC. I disagree, not because I'm interested in going to the mat over the ROC, but because the article titled "China" rightly concerns itself with the whole of the region's history, culture, and development, rather than on the political entity that has emerged there in the last six decades. China is no more synonymous with the PRC than mesopotamia is with Iraq.Homunculus (duihua) 03:57, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

I assume you are already aware that your comparison is quite absurd. Text from the China article: "The People's Republic of China (PRC), commonly known as China". While irak is not commonly known as mesopotamia. A better comparison would be The big bang theory. Does that redirect implies that the big bang theory is fiction, just a tv show?. My guess is that the redirect was made based on what people typing The big bang theory are expecting to find.190.51.168.236 (talk) 18:53, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Chung Kuo

Chung-kuo is the the Wade-Giles romanization of the Chinese word for China. Now Chung-kuo, Chung-Kuo, Chungkuo, and Chung Kuo all redirect China and there is a disambiguation page Chung Kuo (disambiguation). I added a disambiguation hatnote to China but it was removed (see this and this). I think that the question is whether Chung Kuo and its varieties should redirect China or be a disambiguation page. To me, both solutions are fine. But if you want to remove the disambiguation hatnote from here, you should change Chung Kuo to a disambiguation page (move Chung Kuo (disambiguation) to Chung Kuo) first. Thanks. --Pengyanan (talk) 04:43, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Geography

The paragraph on China's geography states that it stretches from North Korea to Viet Nam but this Wikipedia link: [1] shows that it stretches north of North Korea. A large part of it seems to stretch from Mongolia to not only Viet Nam but also to Myanmar (or do you prefer the traditional name, Burma?), Bhutan, Nepal,and Pakistan. I don't know how to enable cookies to I can't change it myself. Also, according to the Wikipedia entry on Heilongjiang province of China, it's located north of Korea and the country north of it is Russia. Here's a link that shows a nice map of China on the first page of a PowerPoint presentation, but I don't know if you consider it a reliable source: [2]

It's hard for a lay person like myself to know if this is disputed territory like Tibet and Taiwan or not, so I leave it up to your editors to decide what to do about this if anything.

Thank you for your work to make Wikipedia so informative and helpful to so many. 99.147.168.38 (talk) 03:32, 11 April 2011 (UTC)Activadvocate

I would rather the sentence be deleted, because the number of bordering nations and range in longitude and latitude (Paracel, Spratly, Outer Mongolia included or no) already speak for the immense size of China. --HXL's Roundtable and Record 03:43, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I cannot find the paragraph that 99.147.168.38 talks about. No sentence in this article says that China stretches from North Korea to Viet Nam. Where is it?? --Pengyanan (talk) 05:28, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

"China" redirect

Why China doesn't redirect to here? Isn't that biased? In other wikipedia languages the term China redirects to PRC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.69.110.164 (talk) 13:52, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Unhappy in SAO PAULO. Just get the PRC to announce that Taiwan is not part of China and we'll fix that right up for you. Hcobb (talk) 21:51, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

That wouldn't actually help seeing as the ROC nominally claims China. --Cybercobra (talk) 03:41, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

That wouldn't make sense since Republic of China (Taiwan) claims all of mainland China (PRC + Outer Mongolia) as ROC national territory.Phead128 (talk) 20:36, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

The current situation is that we have two governments who each claim to the legitimate government of all China and that they'll merge at some point in the unknown future. The opposition in Taiwan has called for a split, but they don't set policy. Hcobb (talk) 22:33, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, China is the PRC, and China is not ROC, for all intents and purposes. However, the main 'China' article talks about China as a continuous civilization, a nation-state, or a cultural unit or identity... so I like the way it is now. It is fine.Phead128 (talk) 20:51, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Political reasons within wikipedia. The redirect should send readers where most readers are expecting to go when typing china. This answer is for the original poster. 190.51.168.236 (talk) 13:21, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

For the last time, this is a NON-ISSUE, and will remain one so long as Taiwan is ruled by a government different from mainland China. Read Chinese naming conventions. --HXL's Roundtable and Record 13:33, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

wikipedians are not a crystal ball and will remain like that as long as wikipedians are not a crystal ball policy is not overthrown by a new consensus. Read wikipedians ain't a crystal ball 190.51.168.236 (talk) 13:56, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I DON'T need IPs to tell me about policy and to talk down to me like that. So long as the benefits of greater cross-strait interaction are apparent, reunification is inevitable. Besides, China has existed in some form for far longer than the PRC. Similarly, the Republic of China had significant history on mainland China before it hopped over to Taiwan. This is another reason why we don't even consider these merges and that this is a NON-ISSUE FOR THE LAST TIME --HXL's Roundtable and Record 14:26, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

-- extracted from http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:People%27s_Republic_of_China&diff=424862903&oldid=424862781 . I moved it here instead of naming conventions because this is not about naming conventions, but about a redirect, something far more specific.

I will just summarize what i said with: The redirect should send readers where most readers are expecting to go when typing china. But i guess wikipedians as well as people in real life tend to stick with the same opinion over and over, mentioning only what favours their opinion, forgetting that the decision shoud be based in a balance of the pro and cons, a balance that is subjective. 190.51.168.236 (talk) 18:54, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Not redirecting to PRC article is correct because it is NEUTRAL and educates English readers who likely are mostly non-Chinese to become aware Two Chinas exist, despite the international lie the Chinese Communists are able to push on UN. Wikipedia is for educational and reference purposes, not political. --Mistakefinder (talk) 21:02, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

BTW, why doesn't Europe redirect to European Union? Hcobb (talk) 21:36, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Because not all the countries in Europe are in the EU. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 23:02, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I think that was a rhetorical, sarcastic question. Hehe –HXL's Roundtable and Record 23:46, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

"So long as the benefits of greater cross-strait interaction are apparent, reunification is inevitable" isn't a crystal ball? According to Wikipedia's ROC article, the majority of the ROC public favors the political status quo and a plurality doesn't identify as Chinese anymore (opting for Taiwanese as an identifier). Most people that search China have very little at stake, and this particular "international lie" (which is being given unduly weight) frankly isn't what they meant to search. China is not unique in the fact that there is a conflict of interest over its name; this is a really weak reason for keeping this bizarre arrangement on Wikipedia. This reminds me of when Iranian nationalists try to push the name Persia onto the Iran article just because Persia "has existed in some form for far longer than" Iran. Oh wait, who do I sound like now? The current article on China gives as much representation of the PRC as the Palestine article does to the State of Palestine article. Unfortunately the rationale being used here is heavily rooted in blind nationalism that's preventing any productive change from taking place. -141.214.17.5 (talk) 17:32, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your relatively calm tone. Take note here that many of us who support this arrangement are from the PRC, and PRC nationalism would be screaming things like "PRC only!", and as the current state effectively is "Two Chinas" officially/constitutionally vying to be the One China, there is no such thing as a "China nationalist". There was an argument raised at Talk:Persia#Persia and Iran that "as long as the Persian people see themselves as Persians living in Iran...so will the world" that is a good point: many in Taiwan think they are not only Chinese ethnicity, but people of China (中国人). It is not Wikipedia's task to disregard these viewpoints in favour of the retarded Western viewpoint equating China with PRC and Taiwan with ROC. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 17:45, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

How about the non-Persian Arabs who where born in Iran? (At least in English there is a clear distinction between Han and Chinese.) Hcobb (talk) 18:36, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I personally don't see the issue with representing multiple views. However, the fact that both the PRC and ROC are being given this default 50/50 say is where it starts coming across as POV. Most people who do search the topic of China were just not looking for this article (hence why, going through the archives, etc. it's very obvious that this issue hasn't and will not go away). Most English-speaking people do in fact equate China with the PRC. As it already stands, the PRC article mentions Taiwan 4 times and the ROC 2 times in its opening section alone, and the ROC article mentions the PRC twice in its opening section. This nominal dispute is touched on in all of these articles, regardless of which of the three articles you read first. Now throw articles like Political status of Taiwan and History of China into the mix, and now you just have an article on China that is literally just a reiteration of articles that are already in existence, but lacking in its own clear purpose (other than, seemingly, to push the POV that the PRC is not China per se). It is completely redundant and could have whatever little, unique information that it has funneled to other articles easily. Certain sections of this article are rightfully problematic, like the economy section. I'm sure most people that looked up China, interested in learning about its economy, would like a summary of the PRC's economy, no? I'm sure this is a frequently searched topic. Instead this article provides a list of loosely-related links on every Chinese state or dynasty's economy under the sun. Completely unhelpful and hides the information that the majority of these people were looking for behind redirects.

And what about Iranian Arabs..? Getting way off topic and missing the point, but there are many nations already in existence in which the line between ethnicity and nationality is ambiguous (e.g. What about French Algerians? German Turks? Turkish Kurds?). "Iranian" is in fact the Persian word for "Persian" and is equated with a particular ethnicity in Persian language. And I apologize for the long post; I'm not very concise :) -141.214.17.5 (talk) 20:14, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Equating PRC with China will force Wikipedia to take a side on Whether or not Taiwan is a part of the PRC, and we can't do that without violating NPOV. T-1000 (talk) 00:15, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Pages416, 26 April 2011

In the "History" section of this page, you should also include the Aksumite Empire along with those other great and established civilizations that you've currently listed. Like ancient Egypt and ancient China, ancient Aksum used their own script and minted their own gold coins while being a dominant civilization erecting from modern day Eritrea and stretching from eastern Sudan, northern Ethiopia, western Saudia Arabia and most of modern Yemen. To confirm Aksum's legitimacy, I ask the editor of this page to please look at the wikipedia page for "Aksumite Empire". Here is the link: [[3]] .

Thank you.

Pages416 (talk) 00:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Apologies, but I don't understand what that has to do with this page. The history section contains information about China's history, not the history of other countries. If you there is some specific way that Aksum is related to Chinese history, please post here and change the above template to say "answered=no". Qwyrxian (talk) 13:27, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

ROC/PRC order and T-1000's revert of my change and claim of NPOV

User:T-1000 reverted my changes and claimed it was NPOV. How is it NPOV? I only stated the facts and placed founding of ROC first and described briefly. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=China&oldid=425969425. Anyone else agree I'm not NPOV? I'll revert his change tomorrow if no objections. --Mistakefinder (talk) 20:16, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi, your edits clearly state Two Chinas, this POV is contradicted by both the "One China" and the "One China, One Taiwan" POVs. T-1000 (talk) 01:07, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Seconded. "ROC and PRC" or "PRC and ROC" in the section header would be preferred for neutrality. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 01:28, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Prior to my edit, it already says "Two states with name China emerged" with "two states" linking to Two Chinas. So mine isn't any different. Besides, the existence of two Chinas is a fact, not an opinion or POV. But "One China Policy" is a POV of each government, which is presented in its respective articles. --Mistakefinder (talk) 07:24, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, two Chinese government exists de facto, but we must also maintain NPOV about de jure. The Two Chinas article talks about the two China POV, while clearly stating it is not accepted by the PRC or TI. T-1000 (talk) 20:11, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Whether the legal status of Taiwan is de jure is unresolved in international law. Where's the Wikipedia policy about NPOV about de jure, or disputed de jure issues? And besides this is irrelevant. As I said, the original article PRIOR to my change already lists the two Chinas. So my improvement to switch to chronological order and add the info about the first Republic in Asia I think is justifiable. Any other thoughts? Mistakefinder (talk) 08:35, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia's NPOV policy is to state every notable viewpoint. "Two states with name China emerged" is different from your edit, which is "China's territory became divided into Two Chinas." since your edit imply a POV that China = PRC+ROC. I am sure you know the TI POV that Taiwan left China in 1895 and was never given back. Furthermore, The Two Chinas article define it as a Term, while your edits states "Two Chinas" as if it were a fact.

This reply was unsigned. I assume it's by T-1000? I guess "TI" is referring to "Taiwan Independence". Isn't "Two states with name China emerged" stating the fact there are two Chinas? And the "Two Chinas" article is not just defining a term but describing the reality there are two Chinas. And what's wrong with China=PRC+ROC? The Communists conquered territory of the ROC to establish the PRC, so PRC split from ROC as a result of the Civil War, so the ROC became ROC+PRC. I am aware of the TI POV but that seems irrelevant because ROC did get possesion of Taiwan (whether the possession is a separate issue), and is in essence "East China" like PRC being "West China", kind of like North Korea and South Korea (which is Republic of Korea). Make sense?

"The ROC is named China" and "The ROC is China" are two different things, the former is a fact, the latter is a POV. The thing wrong with China = PRC+ROC is that there is a notable POV that Taiwan is not part of China. There is no Korean Independence movement in South Korea. As discussed many times before, to Whom Taiwan belongs to is a disputed issue, The Reds views it as belonging to PRC, the Blues belonging to ROC, the Greens as independent,and that the ROC is a government in exile. Because of the Disputed status of Taiwan, China means different things to different people. And that's why Two Chinas is only a POV. Finally, in the Two Chinas article, it specially said that "One opinion in Taiwan is that the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China are both sovereign, thus forming "two Chinas", so the article does not state that it as a fact. T-1000 (talk) 18:38, 30 May 2011 (UTC)