Talk:American Jews

Changes to the infobox

AndresHerutJaim (talk · contribs) has been making many changes to the infobox on the page, generally adding all sorts of images of young actors. As has been discussed here many times, the pictures in the infobox are a careful balance of men and women from all sorts of professions, all Jews, and geared towards overall significance. It's unclear that these additions match those criteria, and in any event need to be discussed first. AndresHerutJaim, please explain which pictures you wish to add/delete, and why. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:41, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Ron Perlman - Famous Jewish actor

Morgan Pressel - Famous Jewish golfer

Liev Schreiber - Famous Jewish actor

Adam Sandler - Very famous Jewish actor

Natalie Portman - Very famous Jewish actress

Mark Zuckerberg - Very famous Jewish computer scientist and software developer, founder of Facebook

Yuri Foreman - Famous Jewish boxer

Jason Lezak - Famous Jewish swimmer

Noah Emmerich - Famous Jewish actor

Joe Lieberman - Very famous Jewish senator

Ben Stiller - Very famous Jewish actor

Rahm Emanuel - Famous Jewish White House Chief of Staff

Why they are not included in the image, as my edition pretended to do. At least let me include Lieberman, Zuckerberg and Sandler... famous and 100% Jewish.--AndresHerutJaim (talk) 00:51, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not in favor of the addition of a fifth row. Do you have any suggestions on who you would remove and replace, and why? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:14, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

You have to include a remarkable politician like Joe Lieberman, a guy like Zuckerberg (created the most famous social network in the world) and a young actor like Sandler (he is just cool and loved by the American public). I don't see any problem with the adding of another row. However, If I were forced to choose... I'd certainly remove Dianne Feinstein (for Lieberman), Betty Friedan (for Zuckerberg) and Hank Greenberg (for Sandler). I would also like to replace Richard Feynman with Robert Oppenheimer (he's much more famous and known around world, and made a major contribution to his nation when the entire Free World was fighting against evil).--AndresHerutJaim (talk) 01:39, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not in favor of a fifth row either. Also, the infobox only has 3 women vs. 9 men, so I don't think we should replace any more women with men. I also think Fenyman was a more significant physicist than Oppenheimer. Finally, if we removed Greenberg we would have no sportspeople in the infobox - we already have two Hollywood celebrities, one of whom was an actor (and singer), so I don't think we need a third one. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:15, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm concerned that your proposal would remove two of the three women in the infobox. Let's see what other editors have to say, both about this and about a fifth row. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:16, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

But you are excluding a lot of important people... let's add a fifth row, shall we?

Besides, not to include a significant contemporaneous man like Zuckerberg is an outrage!--AndresHerutJaim (talk) 02:34, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

The infobox is already pretty big, and so far no-one else wants to make it even bigger. Also Zuckerberg's pretty young, and his invention is pretty new. Please review WP:RECENTISM. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:18, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Facebook gained popularity recently, but it was launched seven years ago... so I think wikipedia should recognize soon the importance of Zuckerberg for human civilization.--AndresHerutJaim (talk) 03:35, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I think Adam Sandler is a good choice for the Infobox. Elena Kagan would be a good choice too. Bus stop (talk) 03:54, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I forgot to include Mrs. Kagan... she is a little liberal, though. Dustin Hoffman is also a good choice (the best actors in America are Italians and Jews, in my opinion... with some exceptions, like Vin Diesel, who unfortunately isn't Jewish).--AndresHerutJaim (talk) 04:16, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

And what about Jennifer Connelly? her mother is Jewish, therefore she is Jewish too. And what about Mark Spitz? he is one of the most famous Jewish sportsmen.--AndresHerutJaim (talk) 09:20, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

And what about the greatest actor ever seen in Hollywood? He was Jewish too.--AndresHerutJaim (talk) 11:18, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Mark Spitz might be a good replacement for Hank Greenberg, but we don't have any particularly good pictures of him, especially from when he was competing. Newman's and Connelly's status as Jews are unclear, and in any event, as I said above, we already have two Hollywood figures in the infobox, we don't need more. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:30, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

i would vote for zuckerberg, sandler, kagan and spitz. i would also vote for 16 pics, 4x4, but not a fifth row. and if you want young, hip, 4-time platinum album singer, go with david draiman, too. if you need a good pic of draiman, i will find one.Soosim (talk) 17:45, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

But since your "vote" hasn't dealt with any of the issues raised, it's not really that meaningful. I will say, however, that it might make sense to replace Brandeis with Kagan - they were in the same profession, and it would help improve the gender imbalance. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:58, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I think Kagan would be a good choice. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 18:22, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

David Draiman would be a good choice. He strikes me an an independent-minded person who articulates unambiguously that he is a Jew. He breaks the mold of what it takes to be a Jew.

Herbert and Dorothy Vogel would be good choices too. They could be considered as one as concerns the Infobox, with one picture containing them both. They represent "…Jewish identification with the avant garde…" as you can read about in the linked-to article. Bus stop (talk) 18:53, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

We have a crappy free picture of Draiman and no free picture of the Vogels. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 18:56, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Malik Shabazz—perhaps a better picture of David Draiman could be found. Bus stop (talk) 19:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Matisyahu would also be a good choice. He breaks the mold of what it means to be Jewish. He is unambiguously Jewish yet not stereotypically so. Bus stop (talk) 19:08, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

@jayjg - thanks for the encouraging words. @malik - as i said...i will get you a nice pic of david draiman. start with these, and i will look for more: david draiman1 david draiman2 david draiman3Soosim (talk) 19:12, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Bus stop, Soosim, as with all such infoboxes, we'll stick with the most famous individuals; that will preclude included generally not-well-known individuals like Draiman or the Vogels or even Matisyahu. So far we seem to have consensus on replacing Brandeis with Kagan; any disagreement with that? Jayjg ^(talk) 20:23, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Guys, did you know Shia LaBeouf is Jewish? It seems the world is a Kippah.--AndresHerutJaim (talk) 01:58, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Wikipeda has thousands of biographies of American Jews, but the infobox has room for 12 pictures. Let's make sure we get a good wide variety of the most notable individuals. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:42, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

hey jayjg...did you that david draiman's last three albums debuted at Number One on Billboard's Top 200, making him one of only six rock bands (and the only jew!) in history to have three consecutive releases debut at Number One. he has sold in excess of 11 million records worldwide and had eight No.1 singles. not sure why you think he isn't famous...i guess you never heard of him. not sure what your criteria is for 'famous'? Soosim (talk) 07:05, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure he's reasonably well-known among fans of his musical genre. American Jews have been extraordinarily successful, and that includes as musicians, so we have a huge number from which to choose for the infobox. Are you suggesting that Draiman is better known than, say, Bob Dylan or Barbra Streisand? Because we already have two popular singing artists in the infobox. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:04, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Jayjg here. This is ridiculous. If we are talking about great American Jews, we are speaking over history. Shia Lebouf, Draiman etc, do not have multi-decade careers and rank with people like those Jayjg mentions. And, this should not be about singers and actors, although having a great singer/actor in the 12 makes sense, what truly belongs are great scientists, classical authors, politicians and even lawyers, and that is what was already present. I definitely would not replace Greenberg with Sandler. If there is one Jewish athlete there, any of Greenberg, Sandy Koufax or Mark Spitz would be acceptable. For politicians, I would think Lieberman is better than Feinstein. As far as Kagan, Ruth Bader Ginsburg actually has been on the court for years, but Brandeis, IMO, is far more notable. None of the other actors/singers comes close to any of the recently mentioned, except possibly for Adam Sandler, and to put Sandler there when you could include somebody like Mel Brooks, Milton Berle or even Jerry Seinfeld, is questionable. As far as Oppenheimer or Feynman, I am agnostic, but maybe we should include somebody more recent or in a different field. Both of them were contemporaries of Einstein. Maybe Dr. Jonas Salk, he of the polio vaccine or Saul Bellow, the Nobel Prize winning author.Sposer (talk) 18:25, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this is getting ridiculous. The whole reason we don't allow changes to the infobox without consensus is because it has always been plagued with people almost randomly adding their favorite American Jews to the infobox, with no consideration whatsoever for any rationale for inclusion other than "I like this person, let's put him/her in". Brandeis is undoubtedly the most famous Supreme Court Justice, but I was willing to support putting a woman in, in order to help balance the male/female ratio. As for replacing Greenberg, I'd actually prefer Spitz, but we don't have a good picture of him. Regarding Feymann, I'm ok with Salk too as someone from a different field than Einstein. Regarding Saul Bellow, he might be a good replacement for Asimov - both were authors, but Bellow did win the Nobel Prize. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:04, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I think Jonas Salk is a very good suggestion. Bus stop (talk) 21:43, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

The article is entitled American Jews. It is not entitled Famous American Jews. I think that implies that inclusion and exclusion should be based on the strength of the argument presented by editors for inclusion and for exclusion. I feel that "famous" is an important factor but not the only factor that should be considered. Bus stop (talk) 18:39, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Bus stop, infoboxes contain images of the most famous individuals of the group, not just random members - "famous" is the minimum requirement for consideration. You've made this argument many times before, and no-one has ever agreed with you on this point in any discussion I can remember. This is one of those areas where you're again veering into WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Please focus on areas where agreement can be reached, not on areas in which you have a unique perspective. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:04, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Jayjg—any selection is going to be subjective. Any selection could be replaced with a multitude of other selections. It all depends on what criteria one is applying. Were one to apply religious criteria wouldn't one be considering Moshe Feinstein, Yonasan Steif, Joseph B. Soloveitchik, Aharon Kotler, and Yaakov Kamenetsky? It all depends on what one's priorities are. If one were thinking in terms of Jewish-American visual artists one would choose from among those on this list—would one not? I don't for instance think Bob Dylan is indispensable to our Infobox. I can accept the importance of a person being famous, but the question becomes—famous for what? Unlike other aspects of an article, the pictures chosen for an Infobox of an article such as American Jews is subjective to a large extent. There is no "right" selection. I believe the selection is open to discussion, but obviously reasons should accompany suggestions. Bus stop (talk) 00:21, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I have news: this funny man and this one are so Jewish as this guy and this one. Probably it would be easier simply to ask which famous actor is NOT Jewish.--AndresHerutJaim (talk) 23:11, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Many of these people have already been mentioned here. What was the point of your last two comments? We're trying to decide who should go in the infobox, not marveling at how many American Jews are actors or comedians. Please review WP:NOTAFORUM. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:16, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Why no religious Jews ?

Why don't you include any religious jews in your info box, Like Moshe Feinstein, the Satmar Rav, Menachem Mendel Schneerson … etc. I think it is mistaken to show only a cross segment of the secular jewish population when the Religious jewish population has had a larger effect on the jewish character of the US, even though they maybe smaller in numbers. yisraeldov (talk) 14:35, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Obviously, we cannot include every single notable American Jew in the infobox, so we've tried to use the most notable examples, correcting to get a nice spread across gender, ethnicity, and field of accomplishment. You are welcome to propose alternatives to what we have now, but keep in mind it's all subject to limited space. If you want to include someone you mentioned above, you'll need to argue who (s)he is to replace:

Isaac Asimov • Louis Brandeis • Bob Dylan

Albert Einstein • Dianne Feinstein • Betty Friedan

Richard Feynman • Hank Greenberg

Henry Kissinger • Steven Spielberg • Barbra Streisand

Who would you remove to make way for your suggestion? These are all pretty much superstars. In my opinion, no one you mention comes close to any of them in notability.--Louiedog (talk) 15:24, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

But you did not get a good cross segment of religious jews at all. The problem is that you are looking through american centric eyes. I'm sure that many people have never heard of ½ of the people on your list. I'm sure that we can find many more people who have heard of the Chabd Rebbe than have heard of Richard Feynman. It's strange that your list seems to exclude Jews who are also Jewish by religion, no ? yisraeldov (talk) 15:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. Virtually everyone up there is a household name and I actually had to google "Chabad Rebbe" to find out who that (Menachem Mendel Schneerson) was, while Feynman is well known in my circles, though I'm a physicist so I'm hardly a representative sample of the US. But to step aside from the two data points you and I are, google gives roughly 800,000 hits for Schneerson and 7.5 million for Feynman. The wikipedia hit counter gives 70,000 hits for Feynman and 6000 for Schneerson. Your additional familiarity with Jewish religious pedagogy and the frequency with which Schneerson is mentioned in your experiences may have oversold him as notable.

You may disagree that the hit counts and google results are representative of notability, or you may claim that Schneerson simply needs to be mentioned to balance out our sample in terms of including religious Jews. You are welcome to argue either, but my guess is you'll get very few editors here agreeing with you to replace Feynman with Schneerson.--Louiedog (talk) 16:09, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

If you google for Chabbad You will get over 8 million hits. For the record I'm not the biggest fan of Chabbad, but they are a big part of american judiaism yisraeldov (talk) 12:59, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

A statistic that tells nothing. First off because you're establishing the notability of a branch of Judaism, which has nothing to do with the notability of an individual figure. It would be like me making the case for Feynman by showing how notable physics is. Second off, what are you comparing it against? https://www.google.com/search?q=Chabad#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=American+Judaism&psj=1&oq=American+Judaism&aq=f&aqi=g8g-v2&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=43627l52699l0l52828l19l16l0l1l1l0l212l1934l6.8.1l15l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=6b29ab0951e4b347&biw=1133&bih=684 "American Judaism" returns 42 million], Judaism returns 42 million, "menorah" returns 42 million, "kosher" returns 47 million. It doesn't follow that we designate a spot to someone notable in Jewish kashrut laws or menorah making.--Louiedog (talk) 13:14, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

On Schneerson, he is well known outside of Jewish circles. There have been books written on Chabad and specifically regarding him (see "The Rebbe's Army"). Articles on him in the WSJ and around the world. The horrible Mumbai attacks hit a Chabad center there, and Chabad and Schneerson are inextricably linked. He is a polarizing figure in the Jewish community and world reknowned amongst any significant religious leader, Jewish or not. Not sure how anyone would not be aware of him. He is, from a religious perspective, probably the most notable and widely known Jewish American. Controversial for sure (since many Chabad followers think he will be return as the Messiah). This increases his notability, like him and Chabad or not. By the way, I am not arguing for his inclusion or not. I personally rather include an obviously devout Jew that was also active in the secular world.Sposer (talk) 13:27, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

My comment below to Yisraeldov. I actually was unaware of him until this debate, but I was very aware of the Chabad movement. I had not made the connection that essentially is the creator of the modern Chabad movement. Consider my objections withdrawn.--Louiedog (talk) 15:51, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

My point was that you can't use a google search for a metric. The difference between your analogy is that Menoras and Kashrus is not attributed to any one person. The present Chabbad movement is attributed to the past Lubavitcher Rebbe. Also Chabad isn't a "branch" of Judaism, it is an implementation. When you searched for Feynman, how many of the results were about him personally and how many of the results were about his contributions to physics ? Again, my argument is more that the booth ends of the religious spectrum need to be represented, and currently it is very one-sided .yisraeldov (talk) 13:31, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Apologies for my ignorance. I did not make the connection. I didn't realize how much of the Chabad movement's prominence was due to Schneerson. I thought you were merely showing that the Chabad movement's notability implied we should include a Chabad figure. I didn't realize the Chabad movement today is essentially due to him. My objections are rescinded.--Louiedog (talk) 15:51, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Louiedog, I'm not disagreeing with the thrust of your argument, but you're on thin ice if you start making arguments based solely on Google and Wikipedia hits. For example, "Betty Friedan" gets only 111,000 Google hits and only 127 Wikipedia hits. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:33, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Of course, Friedan is likely not as notable as Spielberg, but she was included for the other reason I mentioned: distribution. Without her we had only 2 of 11 figures as female. Also, since her contributions are that she's the household name in feminism, it adds a nice balance to the physicists, actors, directors, politicians, and legal scholars as only the second mention of someone in the humanities. As I've said, anon may wish to make an argument for the inclusion of Schneerson on the basis of distribution, but the problem winds up being that it throws off some other distribution adjustment made in some earlier discussion. All in all, it's a lot of balancing that will never be perfect.--Louiedog (talk) 17:09, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I do not think there was a deliberate attempt to not include religious Jews. There are relatively fewer religious Jews that have made non-religious contributions, which is what is the apparent focus of the Infobox. Given the global importance of the Chabad movement, love it or hate it, Schneerson is probably worth considering (not sure if I am for or against at this point). However, I think including devout Jews that have contributed outside of the religion to America or the world is more relevant to an article on Jewish Americans.Sposer (talk) 16:19, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

We can't make decisions based on who individual editors happen to be familiar with, and it is odd that not even one religious leader is included. Menachem Mendel Schneerson is as famous as a number of the people in the infobox, and likely more influential than most. The only concern is that as soon as you include him, editors will show up insisting that we also include other leaders, like Moshe Feinstein, Joel Teitelbaum, Joseph B. Soloveitchik, Solomon Schechter, Mordecai Kaplan, Judah Leon Magnes, Stephen Samuel Wise. Yisraeldov, were you suggesting we include, say, Mordecai Kaplan, the founder of both Young Israel and Reconstructionist Judaism? Solomon Schechter, excavator of the Cairo Geniza, founder of the United Synagogue of America, and president of the Jewish Theological Seminary of America? I somehow get the impression that neither of those two individuals were what Yisraeldov had in mind. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:21, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

The list goes on, including less wonderful figures, like Meir Kahane who was Orthodox and definitely important in Jewish American history. Also Larry Silverstein is, I believe, observant. I seem to remember reading that Robert Rubin also was observant. I am sure there are some scientists that would fit the mold as well. Jayjg mentions several good religion-oriented choices above.!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sposer (talk • contribs) 18:54, 24 January 2012‎ (UTC)

We are not here to debate your personal opinion of people, and yes, people who might not be generally liked should be included.yisraeldov (talk) 09:12, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I think the lack of any religious figures is an issue we should at least discuss. I see three possible approaches:

1. Do nothing. This would reflect the fact that American Jewish religious leaders are not generally as well known outside the Jewish community as the actors, singers, sportspeople, scientists, etc. currently in the infobox, but leaves a rather odd impression that Judaism is not an important facet of American Jewish life.
2. Add one religious figure. This would fill up the current empty spot, but would lead to arguments about which American Jewish religious leader was the most famous and/or influential.
3. Add four (fill the empty spot, and add a row) or five religious figures (make the box four by four). With that number, we would be able to get a more balanced representation of American Jews religiously, but this might imbalance the overall infobox (four or five out of 15 pictures would now be of religious individuals).

Thoughts? Jayjg ^(talk) 19:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Adding one visibly religious jew I think would make for a more balanced info box ( if you must use the info box ). I mentioned the Chabad Rebbe because I think that chabbad has probably had the largest effect on the world wide religious jewish community. Although the others that I mentioned (Satmar Rav and Rav Moshe Feinshtien) are more characteristic of the american Religious Jewish Identity in contrast to the rest of the Religious Jewish world, [Chabad] is known world wide. Anding 4 religious would be an exaggeration of the religiosity of the US Jewish population. yisraeldov (talk) 09:12, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

i think one religiously looking american jew should be added. perhaps Abraham Joshua Heschel as being more 'neutral', though he did hang out at jts, i think he is best known for his philosophy and his writings, that many american jews still read and use. comments?

He isn't exactly a religious looking jew ( looks more like mark twain ). If you are looking for religious looking then you should go for the Satmar Rav, but I still think the Lubavitcher Rebbe is much more iconic. And he is more neutral that what ? Rav Moshe Feinstien was the posek hador, and was is almost universally accepted among practicing jews around the world. yisraeldov (talk) 11:15, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

ok, how about rav soloveitchik? Soosim (talk) 11:52, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Again, Moshe Fienshtien is much more universally accepted, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe is more iconic, I think that if we are trying balance out the info box, that is currently tilted extremely secular, we should use the most religious that we can find. If you put the Satmar Rav on one end and the rest of the info box on the other people will be able to interpolate the all of the other levels of religiosity. If we use one of your more moderate suggestions, people will not be able to assume that there are american jews such as those that live in Kirat Yoel, Lakewood, Crown Heights, or Monsey. yisraeldov (talk) 12:21, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

If we do a google search on the names of American Jewish religious figures to try to (crudely) ascertain which are the most well-known/influential, we get the following results:

Religious leader	Google hits	Google book hits
Solomon Schechter	678,000	225,000
Menachem Mendel Schneerson	509,000	15,700
Judah Magnes	391,000	17,500
Stephen Samuel Wise	308,000	42,200
Joseph B. Soloveitchik	291,000	71,600
Moshe Feinstein	136,000	16,900
Mordecai Kaplan	67,900	23,500
Joel Teitelbaum	48,600	4,080

While google hits isn't an exact science, it's pretty clear we shouldn't be picking Feinstein, Kaplan, or Teitelbaum. In addition, Orthodoxy is the smallest of the the major movements of American Judaism (Reform is the largest, Conservative next largest). So, it would seem to make sense to go with Schechter, but we might also want to use Magnes or Wise instead, representing the Reform movement. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Much as I would love to see Schechter given kavod, I wonder about his credentials as an American Jew. According to his WP page, he only spent the last 13 years of his life in America. Nonetheless as ever I wouldn't object. Zargulon (talk) 21:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry but you need to know how to search, people might not know who Menachem Mendel Schneerson is but they know who the Chabad Rebbe is, he gets over 3Million hits on google. Also people might not have heard of Joel Teitelbaum but they have heard of the Satmar Rebbe. I think that the Chabad Rebbe is clearly the most well known. Also while Orthodoxy might be the smallest in numbers, it is the most influential. Almost every Orthodox jew will know who who Moshe Feinstein is but I doubt that most jews that call themselves reform will not know who Wise is, and for sure your average non-jew won't. yisraeldov (talk) 21:08, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

"Chabad rebbe" gets 85,700 hits ([1]) - and even then, Chabad had seven rebbes, so many of the hits will be false positives. Also, your notion that "while Orthodoxy might be the smallest in numbers, it is the most influential" is dubious at best. We need to focus on objective measures, not just people with whom Israel-based haredi User:Yisraeldov happens to be familiar. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:32, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Jayjg's search results, I just did it myself. If you leave out the quotes, you will get hits which are about Chabad but not the Rebbe, or about some Rebbe other than a Chabad one, and as Jayjg says, there were seven Chabad Rebbes, all of them called "Schneerson" and two of them called Menachem Mendel Schneerson.

Sorry If I jumped the gun, but I added the Chabad rebbe, it seems that at least a few people agreed with me or at least didn't object. Also now there is a place for a religious jew on the board. If there are any objections please put them under this section, it was getting confusing looking in 15 different places. On a side note, any one that knows me personally will be shocked that I would be the one to put the Chabad rebbe, but I think it is the logical thing to do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yisraeldov (talk • contribs) 21:34, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, you jumped the gun. This can't just be people who you, a haredi Jew living in Israel, happen to be familiar with. It's out again, pending consensus. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:40, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Off-topic and oft-repeated proposal

There are no criteria for inclusion in the Infobox for "American Jews". The image component of the Infobox should probably be eliminated if a system cannot be found to simply include a virtually random sampling of individuals that reliable sources indicate are "American Jews". The article is not on the topic of high profile American Jews, and even if it were, these sorts of discussions make it very apparent that there is a wide range of opinion on what constitutes high profile. The article ostensibly treats the intersection between American identity and Jewish identity. The Infobox should be reflective of the broad range of individuals included under the rubric of the term "American Jew". A discussion such as the above serves to advance narrowly held value judgements that are irrelevant to the subject matter of the article. Bus stop (talk) 16:57, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

After witnessing many discussions like this and discussions in similar articles, the criteria seem to be twofold: (1) figures should be notable, and (2) figures should be a nice distribution by category (e.g. gender, field of contribution). Most ethnic articles (e.g. Italian American) include a photographic sampling of the more notable members of that group.--Louiedog (talk) 17:14, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Loodog—I disagree with all of the above. The article is not about any of the concerns you've expressed. For the article to retain its potency, indeed for the article to remain on topic—we do not need a boosterism-fueled sampling of images. The article in no way addresses itself to those in the limelight. "American Jew" is a term applied to millions of people. The article should confine itself to that subject and refrain from highlighting those that are already highlighted by circumstance. Bus stop (talk) 17:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Couldn't disagree more Bus stop. This is standard Wiki practice and makes perfect sense to me.Sposer (talk) 18:54, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

It is "standard Wiki practice" to misconstrue the subject matter of an article? The title is American Jews. It is not Noteworthy American Jews, Notable American Jews, Popular American Jews, Famous American Jews, Well-known American Jews, or anything remotely like that. I think it is understood that the Infobox should be consistent with the subject matter of an article. The discussion above revolves around what sort of boosterism we should engage in, while the title of the article indicates a scope which includes in fact millions of American Jews, most of whom don't have an article on Wikipedia. Bus stop (talk) 19:08, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Bus stop. You've been arguing for at least the last two years that infoboxes should include the pictures of non-notable individuals. I have yet to see a single other editor agree with you on this point. It's time to Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I think he's referring to the fact that this is done with every virtually article about a group of people on wikipedia, including: Jews, Americans, Irish American, Italian American, Greek American, Germans, Moroccan people, Danes, Poles, English people, etc... It's not so much a boosterism of the group as a set of examples readers may be familiar with, a demonstration by example, which is how wikipedia teaches everything. We don't really have a lot of pictures of "boring" people that are representative of a given group and the boring examples aren't as interesting to look at anyway.--Louiedog (talk) 19:32, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Jayjg—a good first step would be to eliminate the Infobox at this article, not to "include the pictures of non-notable individuals." That would be consistent with the subject matter of this article. The millions of American Jews are in fact not known beyond a small circle of people from workplace, family, friends etc. We should get off this grandiosity jag that is in fact marring an article that is primarily about the sociological phenomena involving the intersection of American identity and Jewish identity. That is what needs to be looked at with an unflinching eye. The glitter of the people that tend to find placement in the present Infobox only serves as a distraction to what should be the purpose of this article. Bus stop (talk) 19:48, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I think that removing the info box would be a good idea. Picking a few celebrates really gives no reflection at all on the average american jew. If you must have such an info box, then it should have a good cross section of the american jewish population. By looking at your current info box you get the impression that most jews in america are in the entertainment industry, and that is just feeding a stereotype. If you must have this info box It should be more diverse. You made sacrifices not to exclude women but you are not willing to include Rabbis that have had a strong impact on the shape of american Judaism ? Also you should probably include some Jewish criminals, like Mayer Lansky, or Buggsy Segal. Also I think that including Rabbi Mayer Kahane would be a good idea. Maybe in-place of your info box you should just have a link to famous american jews. Also I'm in a different timezone than most of you so I cannot reply right away. yisraeldov (talk) 09:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

We should remove from this article the infobox designed specifically for articles like this? The one that one finds at all similar such articles, such as Italian American, Greek American, African American, Russian American, Arab American, Polish American, Irish American,German American, etc.? Yeah, that's "a good first step" Jayjg ^(talk) 22:37, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Jayjg—please don't remove comments (as you do here) that the initiator of this section of the Talk page (User:Yisraeldov) has probably not yet had an opportunity to see and respond to. Please allow my suggestions to remain until there is reason to believe that Yisraeldov has had the opportunity to take my suggestions into consideration. Bus stop (talk) 21:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I didn't remove any comments, and Yisraeldov was proposing the exact opposite of your "suggestions". Jayjg ^(talk) 22:24, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Jayjg—you are displaying a propensity to disallow the posts on a Talk page to unfold in the simple chronological order in which they are posted and without manipulation. Any reader of this Talk page can evaluate the opinions of the editors posting—discarding those ideas that seem irrelevant, and retaining those ideas that seem pertinent. But that is only possible when an intact record is available to a reader trying to understand the points being made. You insist on "collapsing" areas of the thread, and rearranging parts of the discussion, and placing parts of the discussion under new headings of your own creation. Do you not think that is manipulative and heavy-handed? I tread lightly on the layout of a Talk page. I genuinely want the record to remain intact. I want it to be obvious to newcomers to the discussion to see the development of the discussion. Edits such as this, this, this, and this obscure the trail of the discussion. A newcomer has to be a magician to piece together the chronological unfolding of dialogue. Bus stop (talk) 22:57, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean. The posts in this thread are in chronological order and in an order in which a sensible discussion can be understood. The purpose Talk: pages is to allow for meaningful discussion, not to ensure a perfect historical record is permanently maintained of every action taken on them. In fact, things like archiving (for example) inevitably destroy that "perfect record". This section is where the irrelevant discussion of proposals regarding unique and novel ways to use or not use the Infobox ethnic group take place. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:55, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

And you are still manipulating posts so that it is not easy to see what an editor's intentions were when making a post. You say that "In fact, things like archiving (for example) inevitably destroy that 'perfect record'." A "perfect record" is not what we are aiming for. Sometimes discussion must be archived. But you should be able to understand that it should be easy for current participants as well as newcomers to the discussion to see where we have been in this discussion. Events transpire chronologically, as does input to a discussion such as this. Chronology is a logical organizing principle. Also, you should not be providing a section heading for my posts titled "Off-topic and oft-repeated proposal by one individual that ethnicity infobox pictures be used in a radically different way on Wikipedia than they are currently used" as you do in this edit. This Talk page has a section heading called Talk:American Jews#Changes to the infobox and that happens to be the topmost heading of this discussion. OK, so my suggestion to eliminate the Infobox is a bit radical. But my suggestion is still in the general realm of the topic of discussion. And I am trying to speak to User:Yisraeldov, who initiated a sub-thread under that general heading here. You have not been particularly receptive to Yisraeldov's suggestions, as evidenced by your comment that "I somehow get the impression that neither of those two individuals were what Yisraeldov had in mind." You are making it well-nigh impossible for normal interactive dialogue to take place. You are rearranging the Talk page. You are making it difficult for others to assess what is transpiring here. Bus stop (talk) 02:47, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

As cute as this is, you guys can stop now. There's nothing to be gained by continuing this. Get an RfC, or at least continue this on your own talk pages.--Louiedog (talk) 04:32, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Stereotypes of Jews

I am pulling the following text out of Stereotypes of Jews because it talks specifically about Jews in the United States. I would like to insert it into this article as the intro to a longer section about "Stereotypes of American Jews" but I wanted to put it up for discussion before doing that.

David Schneder writes "Three large clusters of traits are part of the Jewish stereotype (Wuthnow, 1982). First, [American] Jews are seen as being powerful and manipulative. Second, they are accused of dividing their loyalties between the United States and Israel. A third set of traits concerns Jewish materialistic values, aggressiveness, clannishness."

--Pseudo-Richard (talk) 16:38, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

You'll need this:

. Cheers.--Louiedog (talk) 19:10, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Carl Sagan

I was thinking of adding Carl Sagan to the infobox pictures of famous Jews, as he was a Jew, albeit nonpracticing. Would that be acceptable? Saberwolf116 (talk) 15:57, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

This issue has been discussed quite a bit here. You can add Carl Sagan only if you simultaneously nominate one of the existing infobox Jews for removal.--Louiedog (talk) 17:08, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

...and get consensus for the change. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:33, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Already have more important scientists, Feynman and Einstein. Wouldn't take either of them out for Sagan, even though he is a personal hero of mine. Sposer (talk) 01:16, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Jews coming from Brazil

In the article Luso-American, it is written that "In September 1654, shortly before the Jewish New Year, twenty-three Jews of Portuguese ancestry from Recife, Brazil, arrived in New York, which at the time was under Dutch rule and known as New Amsterdam. This arrival was the beginning of Jewish-American history. Sephardic Portuguese Jews were also the early settlers of Newport, Rhode Island (where the country's first synagogue was founded), Charleston, Philadelphia and Baltimore." However, I don't see any reference of such migration here. The website of the Center for Jewish History (http://www.cjh.org/p/52) states that "2004 marked a significant landmark in American Jewish history: the 350th anniversary of the arrival of 23 Sephardic Jews from Recife, Brazil to what was still New Amsterdam. These refugees wrote the first page of a new chapter in the annals of Jewish history." Moreover, the article Spanish and Portuguese Jews also brings this peculiar historical fact. Despite having such relevance, the article over here only states that "Jews have been present in what is today the United States of America as early as the 17th century.[8][9] However, they were small in numbers and almost exclusively Sephardic Jewish immigrants of Spanish and Portuguese ancestry", apparently considering such migration irrelevant. Seeing it from an international perspective, this fact is very relevant. Do you guys agree on including a reference to such migration?

--Jgsodre (talk) 02:34, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. Fairly well known and important fact. Source it and add it. Sposer (talk) 16:32, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Over/under -representation of categories in the infobox

Expanding on from the observation that there are no religious figures in the infobox, here are my thoughts.

1) I agree there should be a religious figure. I would tolerate the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Satmar Rav, Moshe Feinshtein, or any of the other suggestions made above. This could replace Kissinger or Feinstein (there are 3 politicians and Brandeis is too important).

2) If there are going to be two scientists (which there needn't be), there is no reason to have two theoretical physicists. One of them would ideally be replaced by a the economist Milton Friedman, or a biologist (Kornberg?). Either Einstein or Feynman could be removed - Einstein is not in my mind iconically American (whatever his self-identification or official status), and Feynman is mainly known in the non-scientific community through his self-publicising (and self-aggrandizing) autobiographies.

3) There should be a representative from the visual arts, rather than two representatives from the world of literature. Mark Rothko should replace Betty Friedan. Philip Roth is vastly more iconic American writer than either Asimov or Friedan, and I think he should replace the remaining literature figure.

4) For music, there is no reason to doubly represent the narrow genre 70's pop music (Dylan/Streisand) to the exclusion of the entire musical world. Get rid of Dylan or Streisand (for gender balance, probably Dylan) and replace with Leonard Bernstein or Steven Sondheim for example.

e.g.: Leonard Bernstein Louis Brandeis Albert Einstein Milton Friedman Hank Greenberg Abraham Joshua Heschel Henry Kissinger Philip Roth Mark Rothko Steven Spielberg Barbara Streisand

P.S. If you are looking for a token "Bad guy" (apart from Kissinger!) I can't think of anyone better than Bobby Fischer.

Zargulon (talk) 14:11, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

As I mentioned before Abraham Joshua Heschel is not Identifiably religious enough. I think many more people out side of jewish circles would have heard of the Lubavitcher Rebbe or even the Satmar Rav. yisraeldov (talk) 14:31, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

YD, you were asked the reasonable question of whom your chosen religious person should replace.. ? Zargulon (talk) 16:09, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I think that the Lubavitcher Rebbe makes the most sense, he is the most well known. I'm just worried that sooner or latter some will come and object because of the controversy. (Personally I would rather have the Satmar Rov ) Since there is now 2 empty spaces I am going to place a picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe there. There seems to be more or less of a consensus that a visibly religious jew should be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yisraeldov (talk • contribs) 21:15, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

2) I agree that we don't need two theoretical physicists, but Einstein is far more famous than Feynman, who, by the way, is known for much more than his autobiographies (he's known as a favorite physics circles, as much for his report on the Challenger disaster as his physics popularizing books, his path integral formulations, his spirited talks, as his quirky and cleverly mischievous nature).

3) Betty Friedan is the household name in feminism. She was the second movement of feminism. And she's also one of only three women on our list of 11 notable American Jews.

4) Dylan is a folk rock superstar, but not very "Jewish". Streisand is up there as much in a capacity as a actress as she is as a singer. And I'd hardly put her in the same genre as Dylan just because of the time period.--Louiedog (talk) 17:16, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps I was a little harsh on Feynman. I personally still Friedan narrowly misses the cut (just like a lot of other indisputably great and well-known people) but I take your point. Perhaps if there was a female painter or sculptor to replace her with instead of Rothko.. Anyway my interpretation of what you wrote seems to be that you are ok with replacing Feynman and Dylan (without prejudice to their greatness or otherwise..) with, e.g. Milton Friedman and Leonard Bernstein? Zargulon (talk) 17:28, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, scratch that about Dylan not being very Jewish. I forgot he'd recently taken a renewed interest in Judaism and been a big supporter of Chabad, so he's actually Jewish as hell. Feynman can go. I love the guy, but he's not nearly as known as Einstein and certainly not as "Jewish". Feynman role as a Jew was purely ethnic, with him making basically no references to Jewish culture or Jewish thought. (Interestly, here are his thoughts on why Jews aren't a distinctive people: "Therefore you see at thirteen I was not only converted to other religious views but I also stopped believing that the Jewish people are in any way "the chosen people." ) Einstein, however, escaped the Holocaust, traveled to Palestine and made comments about Jewish consciousness.--Louiedog (talk) 17:51, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Hmm.. by that criterion, Madonna would be as Jewish as hell, and maybe Michael Jackson. But what do I know.. Zargulon (talk) 18:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, everyone in our list here is accepted as at least ethnically Jewish while very few would accept MJ or Madonna as legit Jews by any measure. Also, I have just found more justification for removing Feynman from the infobox: he hated being being included on lists of Jews, even ethnic ones. He wrote letters explaining why he didn't want to be included in lists of Jews. I'd say we could respect this wish and take him out.--Louiedog (talk) 18:17, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok. What about taking Diane Feinstein out to replace with the religious figure? I think she is hardly known at all outside America. Zargulon (talk) 18:23, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Removing Feinstein makes the collection have 2 females out of 11. I think we were trying to keep it somewhat balanced by gender. I'd almost say let's add Debbie Friedman who is so popularly associated with American Jewish culture, but for the fact that we have 2 singers up there already.--Louiedog (talk) 18:38, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I would be prepared to use gender as a tie-break, but I think it is better to have a more famous man than a woman who would clearly be there just because of her gender, as I think is the case with Feinstein. Debbie Friedman is completely below the radar for me. Zargulon (talk) 18:51, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that there is an empty spot in the box, so we don't have to remove anyone. It's only if we add two religious figues (which actually makes sense) that we must remove a secular figure. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Well I am stumped for the religious figure(s). It's not that I'd object, but just don't think that the Lubavitcher/Satmar Rebbe or any of the others have any significant public footprint outside of the Jewish world. In the UK we could go for Jonathan Sacks or Hugo Gryn who are/were well-known public personalities. What about Shmuley Boteach.. Zargulon (talk)

Chabad is an enormous global organization with outreach centers in every corner of the world. Schneerson is world reknowned. I am amazed that his numbers aren't higher. I think Yisrael Dov was seeking somebody devout. Although as a Conservative Jew, I would consider Schecter devout, an Orthodox Jew might not. For that reason, if we had to choose one religious leader, it would be Schneerson. Although the Reform movement may be large, I do not think there is any one well known leader of the Reform movement. Conservative Judaism is largely an American invention. Reform Judaism is German+American. Personally, I prefer Robert Rubin and Meir Kahane (not saying I consider Kahane a positive, but he is certainly globally notable).Sposer (talk)

But piety is not the criterion for infobox inclusion, and the infobox is for people, not movements. I don't object to Schneerson but I rather think that if due process is followed an alternative will be clearly preferable. Zargulon (talk) 21:40, 25 January 2012 (UTC)