User talk:Jimbo Wales

(Manual archive list)

Just a thought

I was in the middle of a fairly large edit when I checked my watchlist and saw all the drama starting to flare up on this page. One thing that I think we all forget - myself included - is that we are here primarily for the readers. Not to pursue our own personal agendas within the community, not to continue longstanding disputes, but to provide a well-referenced, well-written, complete encyclopedia for the hundreds of millions of people who come to the projects every single day. In a month, no reader will remember - or likely even know about! - some petty argument on Jimbo's talk page, or ANI, or WT:RFA. What they will remember is a piece of content that they found really helpful, engaging, and interesting. They will remember that they learned something, and they will come back to us as a source of information. That's what the wiki should thrive on, not petty drama. I hope that anyone reading this will maybe go off and create a missing stub, or source a statement in an article about their favorite band, or review a GAN. Because that's why we're really here. I try to remember that every day I'm here. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 03:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

• Well said. -- œ^™ 04:19, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Agreed. Albacore (talk) 05:12, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Like Beautiful and poignant...... if only everyone on Wikipedia had this view.. and just brought the fun, comradery and kindness back to the project..... (something I fear we may have lost since about 2007 when the Wikicaste-system because a lot worse) :)--Coin945 (talk) 12:26, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
• See #Censorship and 2012 Summer Olympics above and the deluge of edits to inform the readers that resulted. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 11:00, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Archived, see: User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_111#Censorship and 2012 Summer Olympics, for comments in that thread. For various lists about 1.8 million articles to fix, see: wp:BACKLOG. -Wikid77 (talk) 03:53, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Like ```Buster Seven Talk 06:11, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia culture (over discipline)

Surely Keilana's thoughts here represent the underlying Wikipedia culture – the foundation on which the pillars are based? Openness and critical debate, sure, but also awareness of the broader picture of what we're doing here. My impression is that, around and about on Wikipedia, there's currently an unfortunate emphasis on discipline above culture. Of course, enforcement is an essential tool to prevent POV pushing and other dangerous or disruptive activities and behaviour. But I suspect background attrition might be more amenable to cultural initiatives prompting us editors to focus on the real editorial task, here primarily for the readers ... to provide a well-referenced, well-written, complete encyclopedia. (Without taking the fun out of editing!)

I wouldn't want to suggest recruiting Jimbo's photogenic gaze for yet another soul searching campaign, but I feel more might somehow be done to promote Wikipedia's underlying culture within the community.--MistyMorn (talk) 12:26, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Well said. I'm not sure how to do all this, but that is the goal of my efforts, to affect a change in our culture, to be less reactive, more proactive, to engage and find positive solutions instead of just sitting and pointing fingers. In order of importance, first comes the readers, then the content creators, then the janitors. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © (WER) 14:10, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I really appreciate your attitude Dennis. You and a few others have significantly contributed to the improved atmosphere on the admin noticeboards of late. Thank you. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:52, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree Dennis's approach is really helpful - exemplary imo. What I'm wondering is how to facilitate that sort of helpful approach around the site (admins, but not only). Having more admins, less stressed out, might be one factor, imo - though not by itself sufficient. Placing greater cultural kudos around here on thoughtful communication and wording, avoidance of unnecessary drama, might be another tool. So that maybe we end up saying "that's the way we do things on Wikipedia" more often not only in reference to the frankness and openness of critical discussions, but also to their general tone. Because that's the way we choose to do things as a community, perhaps. 2c, —MistyMorn (talk) 21:16, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

• 1. Always participate in RfA. Do your homework and only support candidates that have the right demeanor for the job. Don't worry about a lack of experience in a one or two areas, that can be learned. Support any candidate that will be independent, trustworthy, calm and tolerant. Oppose others, no matter how gifted.
• 2. Seek out and find new candidates that fit this bill. If you don't want to nom them yourself, find someone who will.
• 3. When an admin "messes up", don't attack them, engage them. Be as polite and calm as you expect them to be, but be persistent. We don't want to remove admins, we want to persuade them. We are all human, we all make mistakes. Forgive in the same manner you would want to be forgiven.
• 4. Always take the time to reward good behavior as much as you take note of bad behavior. It helps if you not only tell someone what they are doing wrong, but let them know you notice what they do right. Bring them into this culture, don't push them away.
• I've been called Pollyanna for thinking this way, but it really is this simple, particularly if many Wikipedians do this. This is how it becomes culture. There is no reason to make it harder than it is: politely demand excellence, reward excellence, be willing to help others achieve excellence, and accept that we are human and we make mistakes sometimes. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © (WER) 21:42, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

It might not be a popular thing to say this, but as much as saying not to attack an Admin when they mess up, their fellow Admins need to hold them accountable and not make excuses for it. I agree with your overall sentiment, and I even understand the 'professional courtesy' aspect of a lot of the admin interaction, but similarly, when an admin and an editor stand side by side, their actions should be evaluated and corrected in like fashion for like actions. I'm not encouraging going after Admins, simply that Admins recognize not just in word, but also in deed that their counterparts should be held to a standard. However, I won't belabor the point, I'll leave it at this alone for a while. -- Avanu (talk) 21:57, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Dennis, I disagree. The "total forgiveness" approach IMO is extreme and breaks down. (If applied to non-admins as well as admins, there would never be any blocks, especially indef blocks, would there.) It has the unintended, undesirable effect of being "enabler" to admins who conduct themselves roguishly and also abuse their mop. The point Gabe has made (not that it wasn't common knowledge) is that a double standard exists re admin vs. non-admin behavior. Please compare these two divergent concept solutions (because they aren't consistent; they're mutually exclusive):

When an admin "messes up", don't attack them, engage them. ... We don't want to remove admins, we want to persuade them. ... Forgive in the same manner you would want to be forgiven. -- Dennis Brown

and:

I think that solutions lie precisely in these directions: make it easier to become an admin so that more people can share the burden, and easier to lose the bit when there are problems. -- Jimbo

Ihardlythinkso (talk) 02:17, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm talking about singular mistakes, not habitual problems. I agree that having more admins helps, and making it easier to get the bit removed or restricted is a good idea. I've pitched that in a number of forums. But if you can't forgive the occasional mistake or bad judgement, you end up with a monoculture of admins, which I think is the most dangerous situation of all. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © (WER) 02:23, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Although I too share in Jimbo's vision of a future where its easier to become and be removed from Admin I think that the culture on Wikipedia has evolved (or devolved depending on your perspective) to a point where its more likely to get harder on both ends than easier. Additionally with less and less folks applying for admin ship (except the remarkable number currently) and the numbers that are leaving or getting banished by Arbcom we are more likely to have more problems with admins in the future. I still, as I have suggested several times, think that unbundling the tools into sets as has been done with some. This would allow people to use and learn a set before requesting another as well as being able to focus on the area they care about. The majority of admins do not use the entire set but specialize in a certain area (vandal fighting, content promotion, content deletion, etc.) so IMO it would be more advantagious to continue to create these "bundles" of tools so that these specialty tasks will continue to be completed without having to fight through the RFA process. Kumioko (talk) 02:52, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Unbundling is an interesting idea that deserves discussion, but I think the bigger problem is one of attitude, not of tools. If an admin has the right attitude about adminship, having too many tools shouldn't matter. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © (WER) 14:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I partially agree but its not just the attitude of the editor its also the attitude of the voter in the RFA process. The prevailing attitude is that one can't be trusted to use some of the tools unless they have insert your personal preference criteria here. For example I would be unlikely to use a number of the tools but what would be of great benefit to me personally would be the ability to edit a protected page or template without having to be an admin, or to see some of the admin restricted reports (such as unwatched pages), to be able to use some of the admin restricted functions in AWB, or to be able to perform certain other maintenance related tasks without having to add an edit protected template and wait several days to a couple weeks for an admin to stumble upon it. It aggravates me beyond description that after more than 5 years, 350, 000 edits across every namespace in WP and a variety of other things that I can't be trusted with a few simple tools to help me be more efficient and productive to the pedia. Now I am only using myself as an example but there are a whole lot of other folks out there that can do some of these things without needing to be admins which many of us have no desire to fight through the RFA process to get. Kumioko (talk) 15:34, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

It's ironic that you use yourself as an example, someone who has evaded a block to edit by using their bot which shows you will abuse flags. To me that shows you would abuse the unblock tool for sure and likely some of the others. In your case it isn't an issue of RfA is broken but that you have shown glimpses of not being a trustworthy user. That being said there aren't really that many tools that admins have that can actually be unbundled. Admins have far less tools that you seem to think. The only three that are really used are deleting, blocking, protecting. All of which should be admin only tools. -DJSasso (talk) 15:59, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

If God turned up, would he meet with your approval or would you ignore him too ? Penyulap ☏ 17:10, 25 Jul 2012 (UTC)

Well DJSasso lets look at that comment. At the time I was engaged in about 10 different discussions about various topics and was blocked because a user was showing undo ownership of an article and I reported it, made a snide comment and got blocked for Edit warring. I didn't make a change but Ultraexactzz assumed I was going to and blocked me for good measure, IMO to make sure I couldn't comment on the ongoing discussions, but thats my opinion. I then used my bot to leave a message in 2 places that I couldn't respond so they would know. So now, because the Wiki software isn't smart enough to allow an editor to continue commenting in ongoing discussions while blocked and the community isn't mature or willing enough to recognize a bad block, I am labelled as untrustworthy. Hogwash and infuriating. That was it and the rest was blown out of proportion by a bunch of folks who wanted me out of the way and WikiProject United States clsoed down. I thought that then and I still think that now. So now because an admin made a bad call and I lost my patience and became frustrated at how I got screwed and the other editor was allowed to continue showing article ownership. Yeah I got mad and lost my cool...and almost left the place completely. I understand what your saying but the untrustworthy editor handle is completely absurd. How many admins have been blocked, 20, 50 a hundred? and they get to keep the tools? But I can't be trusted to have them. Its just childish, insulting and frankly a bit unrealistic. Kumioko (talk) 18:36, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

BTW, to assume I would abuse the tools would also assume that I have abused others in the past. Since I use scripts, AWB with custom modules, I have helped others write their modules and code, I use a variety of other things like Huggle, Hotcat and Twinkle that would mean that I must have abused them as well, which I have not so your argument really has no merit other than to try and discredit me and show that you really don't know what your talking about on this particular matter. Kumioko (talk) 18:43, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

In the last month, I've supported a couple of different admin candidates that had blocks in their past (one of them I even nominated), so it didn't affect my vote in the least. Like I said way up top, forgive the same way you want to be forgiven. It isn't a Christian-only sentiment (I'm not a Christian or otherwise affiliated, for that matter) it is just a life philosophy, an understanding that we all make mistakes. Some will overlook it at RfA, some won't, but plenty of admins have blocks in their past and it didn't prevent them from passing an RfA. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:35, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I've also been a victim of abuse from bot accounts, my bot was calling for my death and trying to work the mob into a frenzy, 'twas terrible I tell you, but it wasn't until July 2nd when things really started getting out of hand. I tried blocking him, but he just gets around it I'm at wit's end putting up with that smartass. Penyulap ☏ 21:02, 25 Jul 2012 (UTC)

Collaboration, interaction, understanding, and bridging gaps

This user has signed the Neurotypical / Autism spectrum interaction pact.

Hi Jimbo and watchers! A short while back I posted here on the subject of Wikipedia being a honey trap for Autism-spectrum (including Asperger's) editors, and how we should bear this in mind as simple differences in thought-processing and language-processing can cause misunderstandings even when both / all parties are acting in the best of good faith. Following on from this (and from promptings from a few other editors!) I wrote this essay.

Anyone interesting in bridging this gap might also want to sign up to the interaction pact, and maybe add the userbox alongside to their user page with {{User:ThatPeskyCommoner/Userboxes/APact}} to help raise awareness. Pesky (talk) 04:28, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Adding: as a community, we need to be aware of the adverse effects of Mentalism (discrimination) just as much as those of racism, sexism, ageism, and all the other "isms". Pesky (talk) 07:28, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure any such problems will go away once DSM-5 comes out :) I think this may be at the basis of a major problem with articles - their accessibility and suitableness for reading on an internet device. We really need something saying more than just Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, unfortunately that just gets editors cramming information in. They consider things like size limits as restrictions on their shovelling yet more important information in rather than as guidelines to help them produce something better for the reader. I believe we should also have an aim to be read and to inform. Dmcq (talk) 09:18, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

We agree always to try hard to remember that neurotypical editors really can get "lost" or corrupted "data files"; what on earth does that mean? --Errant ^(chat!)

Yes that wording is a little unusual; I'm not sure what it means. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:25, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

It's a metaphor. It is not unusual if you read the essay it is referring to first. Viriditas (talk) 11:00, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I got the "data files" - the significance of "lost" is, umm, lost on me :) unless it is a copyedit error and the correct meaning is lost or corrupted "data files". As an aside, I showed this to a diagnosed aspergers friend and he said (quote) "Ugh, I hate all the nicey-nicey just because I'm an aspie. It's degrading". Just adding a contrary viewpoint. --Errant ^(chat!) 13:19, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

The wording of policy should be formulated to make it accessible and clear to everyone. This is a concept called universal design, it means that rather than designing for the average user, you design for people with differing native languages, genders, racial and ethnic backgrounds, abilities, and disabilities.

I feel the target should be ALL editors, rather than the Average editor. I think naming or defining the interactions between the the mutants and the humans is not the precision path, I love and respect my Auntie's intentions here, but peaceful people do not draw up treaties or talk of peace. People who speak of peace are those who go to war. To say "we should include everyone" is to speak with a single voice. But to say "we should have a pact between the groups" or to say "we should have a treaty" is to draw lines between the groups. If I tell my friend "I like you even though you have brown eyes. I think there is nothing wrong with having brown eyes" and tell each of my friends the same thing, it's reverse psychology. They think I hate people with brown eyes. "Include everyone" contains no reverse psychology dynamic. This is the path to unity. Penyulap ☏ 16:58, 25 Jul 2012 (UTC)

@Errant: the "lost" data files are just that - memories which either never got saved, or have somehow been deleted! It can be hard for aspies and auties to get a grip on the fact that NT's really can "not remember" stuff. Or remember it wrongly. I don't think we should be "nicey nicey", either; but I also don't think any of us should be equating high-functioning autism-spectrum people as "disabled" or "less competent", or any of that stuff. It's just a different method of processing, with emphasis on data-handling and not on "people-stuff". @Pen: I'm sure we need something to remind ourselves that we A-spectrum people need to make allwoances for the comparative dysfunctionality of NTs in some areas; and vice versa. There's an awful lot of misunderstanding just because each type doesn't have any personal first-hand knowledge of the operating system of the other type. Pesky (talk) 17:52, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmm; memory is only one of many features of people on the autism spectrum. I know very many people with such classifications who have worse memory than I do (and mine is pretty bad). Also; I'd suggest that a pact & essay that comments on certain people on the autism spectrum having difficulty with unclear, imprecise, or ambiguous language probably shouldn't be using an unclear sentence immediately afterward ;) One of the key things about Autism is that it manifests in many very different ways - if we are talking about accommodating different viewpoints, and adopting clarity in our policies, procedures and interactions, then let's do so. I'd certainly benefit from that :) People are idiosyncratic; many of us here could probably be shown to display autistic traits. But equally many of us are not. I'm cautious about making such a big deal over it - just as I am cautious about making a big deal over any minority. It usually just ends up enforcing bias and dislike more than anything else. --Errant ^(chat!) 19:18, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

p.s. Pesky; the point I was making r.e. that sentence is that because "lost" and "data files" are quoted a basic reading of that sentence suggest them as two different points - or to put it another way why is "lost" quoted, but not corrupted? --Errant ^(chat!) 19:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Heh! OK, so I'm not perfect; and what I write isn't always perfect either! Yes, I know that memory isn't always the distinguishing feature; however, I have noticed that, in WikiLand, it seems to be the one which causes the biggest misunderstandings-of-NT's, for A-spectrum people who do have the memory thing. If you can remember, for example, every discussion, what everyone said, on a talk page about a subject for the last two years, and if that's totally natural for you, then when other people misremember stuff, or just don't remember at all, then it can really seem as though they're deliberately misrepresenting things, or distorting things, or just plain lying about it "to fool people". That's a big issue here. In the same way as NT's can think / say "How can you possibly not understand what I said? You're just being disruptive!", A-spectrummers can think / say "How can you possibly not remember that stuff? You're just being disruptive!" In Wikipedia, that's the one which seems to cause the challenges in mutual understanding.

P.S. I removed those superfluous quotes :o) In Real Life™, things are a little different, because we're dealing with real-world differences. I have to say that, when it comes to Real Life™, I tend to feel sorry for neurotypicals because of what they miss out on. When I'm out in the wilderness (for want of a better word) with a neurotypical, and we pause to look at the beautiful view, the NT sees a beautiful view, or a lovely landscape. I see everything. The deer hiding still and silent under the trees, the lark's nest, the rabbit frozen into immobility under the bramble ten feet away, the adder basking but watchful, with head raised to see whether it needs to move out of our way, the otter on the riverbank watching us, the tiny wild orchid which my companion almost stepped on ... the list is endless. And NT's miss 90% of it. On an intellectual level, we A-spectrum people know all too well what NT's have that we don't, mainly because we're constantly belittled and berated for not having it. But, unless they've actually studied us, they don't have, even on an intellectual level, any appreciation of what we have that they don't ... because nobody attacks them for not having it. Pesky (talk) 05:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I've been wracking my brains to try and think of a parallel which might give some insight for NT's on A-spectrum processing. It's a bit as if all the NTs are in a stimulus-free padded cell. If you're surrounded by really interesting stuff, which you only have to look and listen and sniff and touch and taste to enjoy, why on earth would you choose instead to focus only on your companion, shutting out all that amazing stuff, and gossip about your next door neighbours? You could do that just as well in a padded cell ... Pesky (talk) 08:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

All of the traits you mention are simply human traits - not really linked to Autism. I, for example am highly observant. A friend who has Aspergers is one of the least observant people I know :) As best I understand it; Autism, and related problems, revolves around problems with "information processing". An A-Spectrum person is, to varying degrees, unable to process, filter or comprehend the information they receive. I just refreshed my memory from a book on my shelves as I recall an analogy similar to the one you make; the writer mentions two people stood in a beautiful field - the neuro-typical person has masses of sensory information available, but are able to focus on, say, enjoying the sunset or watching a single butterfly in flight. This particular A-Spectrum person is unable to focus on any one thing in the same way. It specifically points out that your analogy, which suggest the NT person is looking at the same scene through a fuzzy lense (i.e. unable to see all the detail) is an incorrect explanation of the difference. Having an eidetic memory is not particularly a feature of ASD (indeed - it is as prevalent in A-Spectrum individuals as it is in NT individuals); we simply happen to notice this in A-Spectrum individuals (for various reasons). I've regularly been in situations such as you mention; where I've wondered how on earth someone could have forgotten that last week we had a massive row about something. Or that they said XYZ - and so forth. I think what I am aiming at is that almost all of the problems you highlight are not really about having an ASD, but are simply common points of confusion amongst all of us. I think pitching it as you have risks several things; creating yet another us vs. them situation, unfairly alienating NT editors with these attributes or (worse) labelling them as "probably Autistic". --Errant ^(chat!) 09:00, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there is a huge amount of overlap in all sorts of areas. And I always feel it's really important to remember that all of us are somewhere on the continuum – it's not like an on/off switch, at all. It's just that, after quite a while looking at interactions and where process-misunderstandings occur, the language / literal / precision thing and the data-storage thing seem to be the ones most likely to cause problems here in Wikipedia. The other Wikipedia-relevant stuff, I've covered a bit more in the essay. Yes, sure, anyone can have glitches in any area of that stuff, but those are the ones which always leap out at me when I'm looking at interactions between people whom I know are HFA or A-spectrum (or in that area of the scale, etc.) and those who I don't know are / aren't but seem most likely not to be. What I'm really trying to get to is that people (all people) should really remember that the idea is that we're supposed to be working together, despite our differences ... and that, actually, our best bet is to make the best use of the various talents which we find in all our many and varied WikiColleagues, rather than knocking anyone for what they don't have. Pesky (talk) 16:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Here are two meta-links to related information.

• http://www.dmoz.org/Health/Mental_Health/Disorders/Neurodevelopmental/Autism_Spectrum/Asperger%27s_Syndrome/
• http://www.neurodiversity.com/neurotypical.html

—Wavelength (talk) 20:39, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

See Inattentional blindness#External links (version of 11:38, 14 July 2012).

—Wavelength (talk) 18:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Inappropriate Vandalism/Libel Targeting Pro Wrestlers

Sup Jimbo! In the Special: AbuseLog, I have found that for some reason, outside of Pop Singers, most of the Vandalism/Libel is aimed at Professional Wrestling employees. Two such statements against Kevin Nash read that he was 'the crappiest wrestler ever' and 'pure sh*ttiness'. Another statement against Paul Wight (billed as The Big Show at this time) read that Wight 'had once won the World Masturbating Championship'. One last example said that Sid Vicious 'had went to the USWA to collect a couple of STD's'. Needless to say, these unconstructive edits have already been reverted, but I just wanted to give you a heads-up. Jayemd (talk) 00:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

What do you think might be the reason for this high level of vandalism? Looie496 (talk) 01:09, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I think after the Attitude Era had ended (you know, the only reason WWE exists), everybody had gotten so bored of wrestling that vandals started humiliating wrestlers 'just for kicks' and to make everybody else laugh. Jayemd (talk) 04:55, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Luckily Jimbo is aware of the problem. You can rest easy to know that there are very sophisticated artificially intelligent robots at work around the clock, you have probably seen Cluebot, and there are other robots, as well as hundreds of vigilant people using equally sophisticated tools. The number of ways that wikipedia already has in place to deal with this threat means it's not anything to worry about. It is very well taken care of just at the moment. Penyulap ☏ 06:30, 26 Jul 2012 (UTC)

"Attacking an admin is attacking the community" WOWWWW!

I have been told that "if an admin has the support of the community, then attacking the admin is attacking the community"... I'm being told it is not acceptable to prepare evidence for an AN/I or noticeboard. Unless it is for something "soon"... but when going to AN/I or a noticeboard you are told they want proof this is more than a "one time" incident and that it is "ongoing harrassment"... but I cant keep a record of the incidents because then I'm being accused of attacking the entire community! Catch 22 is still required reading in middle school right? This is why nothing can happen to (admins or regular editors) who harrass- the community requires proof and links. I have no time to go through and search every where for the exact links of when and where something happened. Half the time I cant remember which noticeboard I'm on at the time I'm writing! I was accused of "gaming the system" for wanting to have a place to keep links of everytime someone crossed the line. Gaming the system is coming to my talk page and telling me that I'm trying to game the system and that attacking an admin is attacking the entire community. It is so sad that so much is being done in the real world about bullying and online courtesy... see programs on TV constanly for instance, and I'm going to be a speaker at a local HS about bullying in August... but I come on Wikipedia and it's like it is its own little kingdom of inconsiderate bureaucracy where everyone games the system to shut up those that complain that they want common courtesy and some decorum.Camelbinky (talk) 14:19, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Not necessarily true. Although I wouldn't use the term attacking, as attacking wouldn't be appropriate regardless of the target. Admins can make mistakes too and if one does do something out of line and you report them its not attacking. On the other hand if you keeping a running list on your user page of all the Admins that have done something you didn't like or were harrassing a particular one that would be wrong too. Kumioko (talk) 14:31, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

There is something ironic about your running here to try and get Jimbo to bully people into behaving the way you want them to do, Camelbinky. Premise of your post aside, they were quite correct that on-wiki hitlists are going to get deleted at MFD. The poor optics of the rest of their comment notwithstanding, it is very much true that going after any editor (admin or otherwise) who enjoys the support of the community is not going to end the way you wish. Resolute 14:54, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Um... AGF Resolute. Did I ever ask Jimbo to bully anyone? Did I ask him to DO anything? And once again- If someone enjoys the support of the community- Dont complain about what they do to you! LOVELY! A popular bully in school who is in sports or clubs or whatever, the administration will deal with lightly. I'm so glad that I'm at least doing my part in real life to get children AND school administrations to change that culture early on, hopefully our next generation of Wikipedia editors will be more informed and better. Aside- funny how those who have been in disputes with me in the past are the ones most vehement to oppose and yes, ATTACK me if I ever post anything. And yes Resolute your first sentence was an ATTACK on me. Ridiculus that I can now be sanctioned by admins for SAYING you attacked me, but no one will give YOU a warning for your inconsiderate words and terrible biting attitude and lack of AGF. If you wont be a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem.Camelbinky (talk) 15:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Um, there is a simple solution, Camelbinky - keep your list, but not on Wikipedia. If the admins can't see it, they can't complain. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:16, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

That seems a much easier solution. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:39, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Although I should say keeping a private stash of diffs on everyone who crosses you path wouldn't seem like assuming bad faith. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:48, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

But keeping a private stash of diffs on everyone you've ever been in a major dispute with might not be a terrible idea, just in case it heads to ArbCom someday. It's not an assumption of bad faith to have them just in case, it's an assumption of bad faith to expect to need them. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 17:56, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I can't help it if you are seeing attacks everywhere. Also, I am sorry if blunt truth offends you, but again, that is no fault of mine. I never said don't complain. Believe me, I've seen more than a couple editors start off with high support, then lose it progressively as more complaints from more editors appeared. I would add a caution, however. While what you claim you are doing to help deal with bullying in the real world is admirable, my impression of your overall attitude makes it difficult to sympathize with your position. You seem to have a major chip on your shoulder, which makes it difficult to accept at face value that you are the innocent victim that you claim to be. Resolute 15:24, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think you are focusing on the most pertinent parts of my comment at User talk:Camelbinky#Nice comments. The "if an admin is supported by the community" assumes that there has been a community discussion about the incident, and the community supported the admin. Is there any disagreement with "The community would turn into an acid bath if we each maintained a list of people we didn't like with things we are sure are wrong."? Of course it's ok (and good) to complain about some action that is believed to be incorrect. The problem comes when an editor does not accept the results of the discussion, and when the editor attempts to carry the grudge for an extended period. I regard Wikipedia as a learning experience, both for its encyclopedic content, and for advice on how to interact with people. In real life, one encounters abrasive or unpleasant or plainly wrong people. Sometimes colleagues take their side due to some misunderstanding of the situation. Unless the issue is really really serious (and you're prepared to battle everyone regardless of the costs), it is best to just bear it in mind and move forward. There is no problem with maintaining a hitlist on a private computer, but the only purpose of maintaining it in public is to assert "I'm right and you are all wrong" which is not helpful (see my acid bath comment). Johnuniq (talk) 22:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I may not have completely understood your meaning of the statement, but you seem to have come to my talk page and misunderstood what I was talking to another editor about. You seem to have come to a discussion that you were not a party to and then misconstrued what I was telling someone. I never said to keep a "hitlist" of editors who have crossed me or anyone else. I said to diffs if an admin or any editor has a history of being rude and crossing the line, I in fact went out of my way to tell the other person in this personal 2 person conversation that it was not ok to just lump in any admin, it had to be admins who have shown a history and pattern of discourteous behavior.Camelbinky (talk) 00:31, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Per WP:UP#POLEMIC, maintaining such a list is not appropriate. My comment about the community was based on "...assumes that there has been a community discussion about the incident, and the community supported the admin...". There is a long discussion here where people on both sides express their views on the advisability of maintaining a list of perceived flaws. Johnuniq (talk) 02:49, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikinews again

I just noticed this on Wikinews. I really think Wikinews has to reformat itself as something other than a news source if it isn't going to write about the news. I don't have a problem with Wikinews giving exclusive interviews and original reporting; however, it promotes itself as delivering the news. That is incorrect. Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:08, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I thought Wikinews was a source of originally written stories on newsworthy topics. ? -- Avanu (talk) 17:26, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Unless I'm missing something terribly obvious, I don't get why that is tagged, the tag says "The validity of this article as a news story in its present form is disputed. Wikinews does not publish reports on events that are not sufficiently recent. New details must have come to light within the past 2–3 days, and the news event itself must have happened within a week." The piece was written on the day of the attack, so what exactly is the problem there? Tarc (talk) 17:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

It was never published. That is my bigger problem. Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The published a lot about WMD's in Iraq and a plane hitting the pentagon too. Why should the big channels have a monopoly on bullshit ? Penyulap ☏ 19:56, 26 Jul 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me? Ryan Vesey Review me! 20:02, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of when it was written, it was not published on time, and so it is no longer newsworthy. More recent items could've and can still be added to it in order for it to be publishable again. Why is this being brought up here? If you have an issue with wikinews, then address it to the wikinews community.--William S. Saturn (talk) 20:17, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Hilarious. Anyone who addresses an issue to the Wikinews "community" (which consists of one active admin and one active editor) will be automatically blocked and banned. Wikinews is not a "wiki" that anyone can edit. It's a closed community run by several nuts. Viriditas (talk) 01:35, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Hilarious trolling. Perhaps your time would be better spent at Uncyclopedia or Dramatica?--William S. Saturn (talk) 03:50, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Unlike Viriditas, I've attempted to work with some of the wikinews community. They were friendly; however, I felt that nothing could really be done. I did a little bit of work on Wikinews but stopped for two reasons. First, the procedures are too different from outs. That is no fault on either side and isn't anything to be concerned about. The second, more important reason, was that pages would pile up at the newsroom without getting published. Everything was a mess and I didn't feel like creating articles if I didn't believe they would be published. Now the reverse is true, the articles just aren't being created. Both results leave the wikinews main page in the same place, without the most important news stories. What can we do? Wikinews cannot compete with the 24 hour news cycle. You'll never be able to get that with volunteers. That's why I feel like wikinews should shift it's focus. It should completely ignore breaking news and only focus on original reporting and interviews. That's what it is good at. Then, it should present itself in a manner that says "we do original reporting and interviews". Ryan Vesey Review me! 04:12, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Maybe this is a silly question, but if it was "never published", how is it that I can read it? Neutron (talk) 20:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

It is still available to give others the opportunity to fix it up so that it can be publishable. Once it becomes clear that no one is willing to do that, then it is deleted.--William S. Saturn (talk) 20:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Harassment of mentally sick Wikipedians

Tarc's behavior is disappointing. This kind of ugliness has no place in Wikipedia, and is inconsistent with our deepest values and mission.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:42, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Dear Jimbo please sorry my English. I live in Thayland. My son edit Wikipedia. Yesterday he come to me and he cries. My son has autism. He tell me that your user Tarc call autistic people "retarded". Dear Jimbo please see http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=38676 Tarc write "The Wikipedia's special protection for assipies, retards, and spazzes, powercorrupts can go fuck herself :)" Dear Jimbo my son tell me that many arbitrator see that site. In another site Tarc call it "Wikipedia users' general spazziness is now a protected class". Why Tarc is still allows to Wikipedia? He is harass all Wikipedians with mental problems and wikipedia too. I wish Itrust you dear Jimbo do not see yourself the sites but now I tell you about Tarc. Please help protect my son and others who have autism and another mental problems.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.87.209.88 (talk • contribs) Your son should probably stay away from Wikipedia Review. (Not that I believe for a second that this post is legitimate.) Looie496 (talk) 01:16, 27 July 2012 (UTC) It could be legitimate; some folks think that because it has "Wikipedia" in the name, it's part of us. (Like the guy in Florida who's posting YouTube videos accusing us of being Wikileaks and stifling his efforts to spam himself into our articles.) --Orange Mike | Talk 01:29, 27 July 2012 (UTC) That is a really bad imitation of bad English. Peacock (talk) 01:31, 27 July 2012 (UTC) You can't really have a good imitation of bad English, though. That would just be bad English. So can you have a bad imitation? Formerip (talk) 01:50, 27 July 2012 (UTC) Perhaps, however the IP addy is indeed from Thailand. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:42, 27 July 2012 (UTC) Just a charming member of my fan club up to a little joe job, nothing more. Well-played, Mauer. Tarc (talk) 02:20, 27 July 2012 (UTC) Do you think it's possible to imitate being a moron on an Internet forum, Tarc, or is it something that just has to shine through naturally? Formerip (talk) 02:51, 27 July 2012 (UTC) To be clear, you're saying that the post on WR did not come from you, right? Looie496 (talk) 05:26, 27 July 2012 (UTC) If it did come from Tarc, I can see a good case for giving him the boot for bringing Wikipedia into disrepute - and if there is no policy that says that this can be done, we could WP:IAR, pretend there is, and go ahead anyway. Totally obnoxious... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC) It's completely within policy to ban a user for harassment on an external site: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fæ#Michaeldsuarez_banned. — raekyt 06:13, 27 July 2012 (UTC) It is not of mine English. Are not you horror of Wikipedia user Tarc harrassment of metally sick? How that user is allow to Wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.168.251.133 (talk) 05:10, 27 July 2012 (UTC)