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I see that a number of editors have expressed opinions, especially here on MediaWiki, and I think it would be beneficial for the English Wikipedia community to have a consensus about this issue. --Pine^✉ 08:09, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Should Media Viewer be enabled or disabled by default for logged-in users, and if disabled, under what conditions should it be re-enabled?

Enabled

FDMS 4 18:57, 8 June 2014 (UTC): If we remove or significantly change features for users after they register and login, this would cause a lot of confusion. So there is no need for two questions.[reply]
I like the media viewer. It lets me focus on the image, and looks professional, as opposed to the messy backend and numerous copyright and other notices that appear when I view the image page. --LT910001 (talk) 22:23, 14 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The display of copyright notices is a legal obligation on our behalf. I don't like wearing clothes (being naked is so much more comfortable), however I have the obligation (and society's expectation) that I do not wander around public places in the nude. Just because it's undesirable doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. --benlisquare_T•C•E 12:16, 16 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Strong enable I was very pleasantly surprised when the new Media Viewer started popping up in my browser. Bringing up the image full-screen allows users to see in in greater detail without having to find the links to higher-resolution thumbnails on the image page, and the information is presented in a compact, simplified manner. I'd like to point out that Ctrl+clicking an image thumbnail immediately brings up the image page in a new tab, a trick I've made great use of. Of course, there are improvements that can be made, but tool is a very positive development in the presentation of Wikipedia's content. Antony–22 (^talk⁄_contribs) 00:04, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No one had to "find the links" to see an image in its highest resolution before. All we had to do is click on an image a second time if it was a very hi-res image. This at least is the way most browsers handled it, including Firefox and IE. With Firefox, all one had to do is click on the image a second time to see the image with a black background, without all the other 'messy' info that is apparently causing 'problems' for some viewers. With the Media viewer to see an image in its highest res a non logged in user now has to click on a link to commons, and click again, to see it in full res -- that is, if they know they have to go to Commons to see the image in its highest res in the first place. Most viewers don't, and will be missing out on all the beautiful and/or informative detail many quality hi-res images have to offer. What browser are you using? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:47, 16 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The media viewer is a strong start. Is it complete? No. But it's good enough to launch. Powers ^T 01:19, 16 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Disabled

Disable Most logged in users are experienced editors to one degree or another, most of whom find this viewer something of a fifth wheel. A flat tire no less. Any thing this new viewer can do (which isn't much) the previous viewing system did much better, including ability to show images in their max resolution, editing file summaries, adding/deleting and access to categories, etc. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:10, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disable, if I were a typical reader I guess it would be useful for me, however as an editor it gets in my way most of the time. 9 times out of 10, when I click on an image, I don't want to actually look at it like a typical reader, but instead want to do something with it (e.g. check for licensing, tag for deletion, etc). --benlisquare_T•C•E 06:18, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled - I appreciate that a lot of effort has gone into the viewer but sometimes developers seem to be distant from the core projects. I don't think it is particularly useful that the tickbox for enabling/disabling the viewer is in the Appearance tab of Preferences rather than the Gadgets tab, because essentially this is just a gadget. Like Benlisquare says above, I don't want to just look at pretty picture and say "Gee-whiz, wudya look at that!"; rather I want to look at the background information which is just not visible in the new viewer. This is just the latest in a line of gaffes, following in the hallowed traditions of Visual Editor, with the aim of forcing us down Talking-Paper-Clip Avenue! Green Giant (talk) 13:10, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled - I see no benefits for editors: it complicates the workflow and hides informations. It should be, at least, on opt-in basis. A "Media Viewer" link below the image should be enough. -- Basilicofresco (msg) 13:56, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled. For non-logged in users, I'm neutral (see below), but I agree that the Media Viewer has no benefits for editors whatsoever. With Media Viewer enabled, working with images is more cumbersome and everything takes longer. Gestumblindi (talk) 15:20, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled. Allow opt-in, I suppose, but I cannot imagine a scenario in which an experienced user would prefer this. - Jmabel | Talk 16:28, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled – Extremely hard to work on articles with this thing around, per Green Giant and Benlisquare. RGloucester — ☎ 21:33, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled and retooled - If this were some sort of add-on to the regular file pages, allowing navigation between images found in an article, it would be a welcome addition. But right now, it completely mucks up attribution, hides critical information, and makes it impossible for productive editors to work. Van Isaac_WS^cont 22:03, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled – Please disable Media Viewer and rethink it if you must. It is an irritating intermediate stage which I bypass as quickly as I can. If you think you are solving some problem or other, please find a better solution. LynwoodF (talk) 20:53, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled - -jkb- (talk) 14:33, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled Horrible interface from a usability POV because it completely breaks the look and feel as well as workflows. Congratulations to the people responsible for this. It's perfectly in line with your former success stories AFT and VisualEditor. --Millbart (talk) 18:57, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled I have made a lengthy post about the disaster of this project discussion page. Media is not what an open, educational platform needs. - Evan-Amos (talk) 22:53, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled Large maps and panoramas become unviewable. Charts and maps that are color-coded and change/are edited over time and have a legend/key in multiple languages simply do not work with this interface. I want to see the history on how an image has changed. For example, a map of depicting the status of Legality of cannabis by country or Same-sex marriage in the United States, two very current issues: it's of interest to view that dynamic and see how the maps/images evolve. This Media Viewer was rolled out way too early, without enough testing, with too many bugs, and included too drastic of a change! How about implementing Media Viewer step-by-step, so that users get accustomed to it gradually; and the developers can get a sense of what features people find useful, and what has to go? MarkGT (talk) 01:35, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled ack Millbart and all others. --Nolispanmo 13:33, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled - It is not useful and extremly annoying for those working with images -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 19:05, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled - There is no obvious way to get to the image page from the lightbox, there is no obvious way to disable it (there is a small preferences link that can be unhidden, but clicking it dumps users to a general preferences page where they must find the little checkbox labled "Media Viewer"), it is confusing as it initially presents a blurry image before downloading a higher resolution one, and it makes browsing difficult on touch-screen devices that use pinch-to-zoom, many of the buttons contain cryptic icons, and their function can only be revealed by hovering over them assuming your device has a mouse. It becomes almost unusably slow on older slower machines or machines on a slow connection. It doesn't allow zooming and scrolling within the image. This feature, like Hovercards, can be useful to some users but has side effects so severe that it should ALWAYS be opt-in for everyone. The fact that less than 30% of enwiki users find it useful speaks volumes. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 23:11, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled and globally disabled in all wikis. It complicates the workflow and hides information. There isn't any need for such thing. Ahsoous (talk) 20:14, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled--Aschmidt (talk) 00:29, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled - I absolutely abhor this feature as it makes editing and using images incredibly complicated. The viewer presents no obvious link to the file page, access to "Talk" pages on images seems to be lacking in some instances, and is just a "T" hidden in the material below images. My favorite travesty of Media Viewer so far has been the map for same-sex marriage in the United States (Samesex marriage in USA.svg). Where once there were nearly ordered keys below the image first in English, then in other languages alphabetically, Media Viewer gives this ugly soup of colored boxes and descriptions without separation between languages, smashing Korean into Dutch and Russian into Simplified Chinese. To say that this is a feature that does nothing for me is to be too kind to it - it is a detriment in every conceivable way. Please just can this "improvement." - S201676 (talk) 07:53, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled. When editing, images are usually added to supplement the text. Therefore, covering up the text and making it unviewable is incredibly counterproductive and defeats the whole purpose of adding images in the first place. In fact, I would have to say that this viewer does nothing good. If an image is too small to see without this, then the image should be scaled up in the article itself. StringTheory11 (t • c) 03:29, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled The 'Media Viewer' is an obstruction at best, and a major irritant at worst. If you insist on implementing this useless bloat 'feature', you should at least make it an Opt-In ONLY, *NOT* Opt-Out. I am still trying to figure out how to turn this garbage OFF, and frankly it's making me really angry that there are no clear instructions *anywhere* for doing so. GET RID OF IT! FireHorse (talk) 07:40, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled When I click on an image, I want to alter its categories or copyright tag more than I want to look at the image itself. Logged in in users don't need this feature. Rcsprinter₁₂₃ (speak) @ 21:49, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled Media Viewer is a delightful innovation for the casual reader who has no interest in charts and maps, but a barrier for working editors sourcing for article review, or updating categories for the images themselves. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 11:15, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disable Since when did Wikipedia want to become a Facebook/Flickr wannabe? The JavaScript is so poorly coded that a brand new Mac can't even handle it using Chrome, FireFox and Safari, causing all three browsers to freeze and become unresponsive, that requires a force quit. Bidgee (talk) 01:43, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Consistency is key. The default setting for logged-in users should be the same as for unregistered users, so that new users have fewer surprises to deal with. That being said, logged-in users should be able to easily opt out if it's enabled by default. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 19:46, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss and comment

This discussion needs more attention; I know is more than one person who would prefer it in its previous state. The only users likely to be looking through Wikipedia and come upon this discussion are those who dislike the interface or watch the village pump (which does not include many people). As a result, (even if the preference would still be against Media Viewer) there will be a heavy bias against it. Try to draw attention to this discussion in a more spectacular way than just leaving a link on the village pump. Also, I notice that some users are not giving any actual reasons for their opinions. The most extreme example is with jkb, who has given no reason. And to Millbart, I don't care how much you dislike this, this tool was created by real people, and just because you dislike it doesn't mean you should hate on it. Dustin (talk) 19:38, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't put hate on anyone, what makes you say that? OK, I probably should have tagged my congratulations as sarcasm. Being a long time editor I am somewhat frustrated with the never changing approach of the WMF and their project managers. For some weird reason these "real people" tend to make the same mistakes over and over again and, more importantly, the justifications for initially keeping the stuff that they force on the community, before eventually succumbing to community pressure, are always the same: An ominous usability study or survey, that interestingly enough, few long time editors or power users, the other "real people" btw., who actually create the content and structure of this phantastic project, have never seen, yet alone taken part in, is cited as the reason for keeping it around. For some strange reason, the new stuff is almost always exactly what people want and what will eventually attract new editors to the project. Yet, it almost always gets in the way of doing real work. To developers and project managers without any real editorial experience in any of the projects, this Web-2.0-Ajaxy-Yet-Another-Overlay-stuff may look really sexy. It isn't. So please forgive me that I don't shower anyone with "love". --Millbart (talk) 20:56, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The rollout is too abrupt, a) without notice how to disable broadcast to editors, b) without a toggle button to link to the file at Wikimedia Commons. — Without such a toggle button, we are required to go through this either-or RfC, when I would be happy to use Media Viewer as a casual user myself, but certainly would prefer a ready revert to direct file access as an editor. If it must be either or, I’m for disabling for editors, because most of my time at WP is as an editor. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 11:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Should Media Viewer be enabled or disabled by default for non-logged-in users, and if disabled, under what conditions should it be re-enabled?

Enabled

FDMS 4 18:57, 8 June 2014 (UTC): Although I'm mainly a Commons contributor myself, I a) don't think users who want to get an expanded/fullscreen view of an image should have to go there and b) find the ability to get article image slideshows great. Users should be able to get to the Commons file description page (not the Wikipedia copy) directly via the thumb symbols.[reply]
For the most part, when a user wants a larger version of an image, they want a larger version, rather than the largest possible version, and the media viewer works reasonably well for that. --Carnildo (talk) 01:43, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Enabled I think media viewer is a lot more professional-looking than the previous system. I am not sure how users reacted when taken to the backend, with the copyright explanation, file history and so forth, but as a registered and unregistered user I found being taken there particularly jarring, ugly, and initially confusing. Also, yes I sometimes want to know metadata, but probably 95% of the time I just want to view the image. There does seem to be some opposition, but I hope that the addition of features can tone this down a bit. --LT910001 (talk) 22:29, 14 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Enabled The simplified presentation is helpful for non-registered users, who can still access the full version of the image page by clicking through the link. Antony–22 (^talk⁄_contribs) 00:04, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Enabled Most unregistered users are readers wanting to view the image closer up rather than see its cluttered information page. Why not let them see this fantastically designed interface that wouldn't be annoying for them? (But would for me.) Rcsprinter₁₂₃ (tell me stuff) @ 21:51, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Most unregistered users" - How do you know? Did you conduct a survey of 50,000 unregistered users with a CI of 0.95 and a p-value of less than 0.01? Why should you speak on behalf of most unregistered users? Do you have firm backing, or is this simply an assumption? --benlisquare_T•C•E 12:11, 16 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Disabled

Disabled, 10 reasons given below. -- 79.253.58.136 (talk) 20:57, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disable, there are simply too may things wrong with this viewer. It's little more than a slide show feature which doesn't allow the viewer to see an image in its max resolution. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:10, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled, I agree with all of 79.253.58.136's comments. The only thing I would like to add is that this feature might be useful for mobile users. I don't have enough experience using mobile Wikipedia to give much of an opinion there. Some sort of RfC specifically with regards to mobile users would be good to have. Crazycasta (talk) 08:05, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled - I think 79.253.58.136 pretty much sums it up. Beta developers seem to have different priorities to the rest of us. The recent category moving farce is an example of developers not really thinking things through. There are so many other things that need doing like the migration from toolserver and yet we are wasting resources on this, Visual Editor and Hovercards (glorified popups). Green Giant (talk) 13:10, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled - I agree with several remarks reported by 79.253.58.136, nevertheless I understand that it could be nice for some kind of users/uses (mobile phones?). For this reason in my opinion a button "Launch Media Viewer on this image" on the image page sounds as a simple and effective solution both for logged-in and non-logged-in users. -- Basilicofresco (msg) 14:20, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled - Might shift to neutral if it were easy to see how to credit for reuse. But it seems to me we could solve that just as easily on the regular file page. - Jmabel | Talk 16:30, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled and retooled - If this were some sort of add-on to the regular file pages, allowing navigation between images found in an article, it would be a welcome addition. But right now, it completely mucks up attribution, hides critical information, and makes it impossible for productive editors to work. Van Isaac_WS^cont 22:03, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled - -jkb- (talk) 14:33, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled This thing shouldn't be forced on anyone. --Millbart (talk) 18:57, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled People use Wikipedia as a source of information. The barrier of being a logged-in user shouldn't prevent these people from accessing important metadata. - Evan-Amos (talk) 22:53, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled This is an absolutely horrendous feature. I often use Wikipedia to look at maps; e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukovina#mediaviewer/File:Bucov.png. Maps do not, in general, fit within the screen; to see them properly, you need to expand them to their native resolution. In the old system, doing this involved three clicks: one on the thumbnail in the article, one on the very easy to click on mid-res image, and finally one to zoom in. This was easy, and great. Now, getting the same requires clicking on the thumbnail, scrolling down (this isn't an obvious step), clicking on a *very not obvious* link, and then clicking on the mid-res image and zooming in. This is horrid. It's also extremely non-intuitive. My first instict was to try to click on the image in the media viewer. That did nothing. Then it was to right click -> view image; this produced a low-res (and hence unusable, in this case) image. Finding the solution required a lot of fiddling around, which I as a casual reader of Wikipedia expect not to have to do. --129.67.108.52 (talk) 08:25, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled - It is not useful and extremly annoying for those working with images -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 19:05, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled and removed. Disabled for the multiple reasons that 79.253.58.136 has so helpfully summarised which reflect the lack of proper research, design, and user testing and feedback (as can most notably be seen in that sorry survey asking, when someone tries to view an image, if an image viewer is useful). Removed because of the ongoing development and maintenance costs that this or any other tool has (remember this is funded by public contributions, it's not like the guys who wrote it are paying for it out of their own pockets. On the contrary, they're getting paid). We all fuck up sometimes. That's a good thing, as long as we admit to it before it's too late, learn from it, and subsequently spread that knowledge so others don't fall into the same traps. This "lessons learned" value is perhaps the only thing we can salvage from this feature.
1. I have to agree with this assessment. It's waste like this that dissuades me from donating to wikipedia recently.Crazycasta (talk) 22:19, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled - There is no obvious way to get to the image page from the lightbox, there is no obvious way to disable it (there is a small preferences link that can be unhidden, but clicking it dumps users to a general preferences page where they must find the little checkbox labled "Media Viewer"), it is confusing as it initially presents a blurry image before downloading a higher resolution one, and it makes browsing difficult on touch-screen devices that use pinch-to-zoom, many of the buttons contain cryptic icons, and their function can only be revealed by hovering over them assuming your device has a mouse. It becomes almost unusably slow on older slower machines or machines on a slow connection. It doesn't allow zooming and scrolling within the image. This feature, like Hovercards, can be useful to some users but has side effects so severe that it should ALWAYS be opt-in for everyone. Have a "view as slideshow" button to make this feature available to those that want it. The fact that less than 30% of enwiki users find it useful speaks volumes. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 23:11, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled--Aschmidt (talk) 00:30, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled everyhere Ahsoous (talk)
Disabled - Disabled everywhere. Can the entire project. Please see my comments to question 1 above for more details. - S201676 (talk) 07:53, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disabled; from a reader's point of view, this media viewer does two things, both bad: omits captions and completely covers all the text. While the first may (and 100% should) get fixed in a later update, there is simply no way to fix the second problem, which is so severe of a problem that I don't think this should ever be a default. Let me also say that by taking up the whole page, it is hard to figure out exactly how to close the image; the first time I accidentally clicked on one, I had to reload the page. StringTheory11 (t • c) 03:29, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Neutral, leaning towards disabled. The Media Viewer does have some potential. For those who just want to quickly view a picture, just want to enlarge a thumbnail, and are not interested in re-using the picture, it looks quite nice, though still a bit half-baked - e.g. I dislike the way it tries to do "progressive" image loading with the blurry enlarged thumbnail. Those users may also very well form the majority. But amongst the users without an account, there are also many who want to re-use images or are otherwise interested in additional information. And for those, the Media Viewer is a hindrance, hiding important information, making the interface quite clunky. As the advantages of the Media Viewer aren't that big (after all, the "classical" image description page gives you an enlarged image as well, the Viewer just has a "streamlined" look), I think it might be a good idea to not enable it by default, but giving people a prominent option like a "Try our new Media Viewer!" button. Gestumblindi (talk) 15:12, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Let's try to distinguish "bad feature", "half-baked feature", and "feature I dislike". I personally dislike lightboxes (Media Viewer is a lightbox system), so I've personally disabled Media Viewer. I also think that the feature as implemented is a little half-baked: the system feels awkward in places and tries to act like Wikipedia and Commons have semantic stuff attached to media that they don't actually have implemented in a nice way (as far as I know). All that being said, I don't think that Media Viewer is inherently a bad feature, and we should look for constructive approaches—e.g. identifying ways that Media Viewer can be improved—before jumping to back-burner the feature. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 19:46, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral, leaning towards disabled. Like any new feature, some people will love it, some will hate it; the haters are usually those well-versed in the old interface. Perhaps a choice with a side-by-side comparison when using Wikipedia for the first time? I doubt this will "alienate" a first-time user. People love to customize applications to suit their needs. But forcing something down a user's throat after an initial evaluation is not good policy. MarkGT (talk) 01:35, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral, leaning towards ENABLED. As long as alt text remains a feature for the legally blind, and maps and charts can be enlarged in the next version. For the general reader, Media Viewer allows for an enlargement without disclosing file data which can be easily vandalized, potentially effecting multiple articles. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 11:30, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss and comment

Media Viewer should be disabled by default for all users. Here is why:
1. The standard mechanisms work just fine and have done so for many years – for causal readers, power users and editors alike. Media Viewer is a solution looking for a problem.
2. Images with white or transparent background look horrible in Media Viewer.
3. Relevant meta data is now hidden or not clearly labeled.
4. The full screen viewing experience is touted as being immersive, but in fact disconnects readers from the context of the article. Wikipedia is not a slideshow.
5. Media Viewer contains useless animations and giant fonts.
6. The original format of the image and other sizes are now multiple clicks away.
7. Media Viewer borrows usability concepts from tablet devices and is not suitable for regular or older PC with desktop class browsers (= majority of users worldwide).
8. Media Viewer contains errors and inconsistencies with regards to responsiveness, variations in screen size and accessibility.
9. The results of the surveys for Media Viewer ("70% approval rating") are questionable due to flawed survey methodology.
10. The proponents of Media Viewer seem to lean towards commercialization (e.g. Multimedia Vision 2016 p.18, feature "Share on Twitter"), which goes against the spirit of Wikipedia. The concepts seen in Media Viewer – a modern, slick design geared towards brand new devices – seem to arise from those same tendencies. -- 79.253.58.136 (talk) 20:57, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Commercialization is not against the spirit of Wikipedia, otherwise everything here would be under a NC license. Twitter is a useful tool to reach lots of people. We should embrace it (and other social media tools) rather than shun it. —Dschwen 02:57, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We should try and stay as far away from such disgusting and damaging things as "Twitter" as is possible. This is the "free encyclopaedia". Barebones design should be preferred. RGloucester — ☎ 03:34, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. As an encyclopedia, we're here to teach, and not to share Saturday night pub photos. There is no reason to join the style bandwagon simply because Facebook and Twitter are doing it. --benlisquare_T•C•E 06:22, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What 79.253.58.136 points out is an example of the creeping commercialization of Wikimedia. We have already had the debate about the change to the terms about paid-contributors. Now we are being asked to Twitterfy and Facebookize the projects. Next on the agenda will be "sponsorship deals" with Big Businesses for their articles, followed by a seat on the WMF board and in a few years we'll see a stock market floatation. Call me a pessimist if you want. As benlisquare says, there is no reason for Wikimedia to become like Twit/Face. Green Giant (talk) 13:10, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Green Giant, that's implausible. The only mention of including Twitter or other "sharing" features here is a mockup in a document that expresses a vision of making it easier and more pleasant to interact with our media. In practice, the community has consistently opposed features that added external social functionality, and commercialization of Wikipedia would be next to impossible given the freely-licensed content and nonprofit legal status of the Wikimedia Foundation. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 19:59, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nihiltres - Yes the community opposes commercialisation but that isn't going to stop people trying. The paid contributors amendment to the terms of use was supposedly to establish a minimum standard but it is actually a quiet acknowledgement that there are paid contributors working on Wikimedia projects. It is the first step in preparing us for paid contributors to becoming accepted as a norm here. As I say, call me a pessimist if you want. Green Giant (talk) 23:24, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

such disgusting and damaging things as "Twitter"

Facepalm it's like I've wandered onto the letters page of the Daily Mail. — Scott • talk 11:24, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To be more specific, we're here to spread information and knowledge. Does it matter what medium we use? (As long as it's free as in speech, etc.) Legoktm (talk) 19:59, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The majority of users are readers, and the majority of those will be looking for an enlarged image on clicking on it. Inasmuch as Media Viewer does that, it is a good thing. However, immediately filling the window completely is intrusive and taking liberties with user expectations. Taking the reader to the file page is not good either though. It has lots of essential information that some people will need to see, but it is confusing to an unfamiliar reader because it is not expected. The principle of least surprise should be followed here.

The behaviour I would like to see, and believe is the expected behaviour, is an enlarged image on clicking on it, but not filling the window, and without leaving the article page. The image should be free of extraneous information like copyright and author info. If the reader just wants to look at the image, all that is a distraction. A corner menu could be provided with perhaps +/- zoom, full-screen, info, and cancel. An info icon in-article on the image I believe would also be beneficial for those that do want to see the info so they can go straight to it. I also agree with Gestumblindi that the out-of-focus start-up view is horrible.

Several people have commented that this might be useful on mobile devices. As far as I can tell, Wikipedia mobile version is exactly how it was before—Media Viewer has not bee implemented on it. I therefore cannot say if it is any more useful on mobile, but I expect that it will be no more, nor no less useful when it is implemented than it is on standard Wikipedia. Spinning Spark 16:53, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"The image should be free of extraneous information like copyright and author info." - per the terms of the Creative Commons licenses that we use, I don't think this would meet the proper attribution requirements. A non-familiar reader may click on an image, have it enlarged, and then decide to re-use the image on their own website without being able to read about who they should properly attribute. In my opinion, licensing and author information must be displayed at all costs, this is non-negotiable as long as Wikipedia purports itself to be a free-content encyclopedia ("free" as in libre, not gratis). --benlisquare_T•C•E 04:43, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Huh?, I really don't understand your point. Users can already scrape images off a Wikipedia page without ever seeing any licensing information; that is not displayed in-article. My suggestion makes no difference to that whatsoever, so clearly it is negotiable. I am not suggesting that Wikipedia offer a download facility without first displaying the licences, but that should be on the information page (or a link from it) not available directly from the article. Spinning Spark 12:40, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For any new feature, whether it is the Media Viewer or something else, it should not circumvent the display of information that would otherwise be displayed normally withoutthe new feature, and if the Media Viewer (or any other solution) does not display licensing information, I would be inclined to be concerned about it. We have the obligation to make file licensing clear, and if it weren't for such a solution, an end-user would end up seeing the licensing information after clicking the image for a larger version anyway (at least, that's what it would have been like on Wikipedia before any featural changes and additions, i.e. between 2003 and 2013).

What you're describing is one thing (thumbnails placed within a mainspace article), and I'm talking about another (full sized images that appear after the end-user clicks on a thumbnail). The status quo originally was that whilst thumbnails within articles weren't described in such detail (it would be rather impractical to begin with), the descriptions on file pages did fully cover licensing information for each individual image; if a new feature intends to change this status quo, full community consensus is required, in addition to consensus amongst the Wikimedia Foundation and other relevant bodies.

File licensing shouldn't be something brushed aside as something "that's there" and is mere linked to just in case someone is interested in such information; licensing information should always be there whenever possible. Ultimately, it's up to end-users whether or not they abide by the terms displayed, however from an obligation point of view we can at least say that we've placed utmost effort into making such information known if we make viewing it mandatory when the end-user clicks a thumbnail to see a larger size image; by hiding licensing information into a deep, dark corner that few people will know about, that's taking a completely different bend. There really isn't a useful purpose for "hiding" licensing information as if we want as few people seeing it as possible, because that kind of defeats the purpose of how file pages are currently designed. --benlisquare_T•C•E 14:14, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

jkb and Millhart and 79.253.58.136 should be diregarded. The first two gave zero reasoning, and the IP gave no independent reasoning. Remember WP:NOTVOTE; give actual, quality reasoning please. Dustin (talk) 19:44, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

User (talk) should be disregarded. He hasn't even contributed a comment to this RfC. :-/

Dustin V. S. would you mind explaining what you mean by non-independent reasoning? It seems independent to me. Crazycasta (talk) 20:21, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Why should anyone give any reason for their respective comment? --Millbart (talk) 21:01, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to the way that you all were practically "voting"; Wikipedia is not a democracy, however, and the majority will not always win. Those who provide their own reasoning shall be given consideration, whereas those who do not provide reasoning shall be given no consideration. In that way, a bunch of people cannot "vote" just for personal reasons, but they must give actual reasoning. Also, in case this was confusing you, I made different comments for the logged-in users section and the non-logged in users section. "This thing shouldn't be forced on anyone." is not an actual reason; I may consider your dislike if you at least use facts that you can prove. Dustin (talk) 23:21, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I guess I was too vague. You said the IP gave no independent reasoning. It appears he gave 10 reasons, are you disputing their independence?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazycasta (talk • contribs)

This is a Request for Comment. All of the above are comments to specific questions. Whether you consider them relevant or not, doesn't affect their status as comments. A comment also doesn't have to be based in fact, it's perfectly valid to state an opinion or preference. --Millbart (talk) 13:45, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Crazycasta: I will be blunt here: you just made an absolutely invalid statement in saying the IP gave ten reasons. What is independent about an argument if all you say is "I agree with what all of those guys said"? Nothing. The IP gave zero reasons, and so its so-called reasoning ought to be disregarded. The IP obviously has shown its preference, but in terms of arguments, it loses out. Dustin (talk) 00:11, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi folks: Thanks for all your helpful feedback about Media Viewer in recent days. We really appreciate your candid recommendations — and survey comments confirm many of the issues you have raised on this page. The multimedia team is taking your feedback to heart, and we are sorry for any inconvenience caused by this tool. To respond quickly to the most frequent requests, we have pushed back all other projects to focus on Media Viewer for the next few weeks. We are now developing a number of new features for you, and aim to get them completed by tomorrow, so we can test them before releasing them to production. If all goes well, we expect to deploy some of them to the English Wikipedia by Thursday evening. The rest of them will be deployed the following week. Please check the new feature list and let us know what you think on this discussion page. Thanks again for your constructive suggestions. We look forward to improving Media Viewer together. Be well. Fabrice Florin (WMF) (talk) 01:08, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Major flaws still exist

After all that's been said and done about improvements to media viewer, it still has its major flaws:

MV doesn't allow the user to readily see an image in its max resolution by simply clicking a second time. Instead, users have to click on an icon in the lower right, and you have to hover over it to see what its for, where the little pop-up message says "More details on a Wikimedia Commons", which doesn't even hint that there is access to an image's max resolution. This will be ignored by most viewers, so I think it's safe to assume that the quality of all the hi-res images (e.g.'Today's featured picture', 'Picture of the Day', etc) will be denied to the casual users we were told are the first priority by the few individuals who have pushed MV into its default existence.
There is no readily available way to disable the viewer, still, and in fact there is not even a hint of how to do so for the average reader and users with limited experience. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:12, 16 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Contrary to the approval rating we were told about MV, that it's "a useful tool" (a "tool"?), it's rather clear that it is not wanted here at English Wikipedia. Had there been a list of features (and lack thereof) presented in the original approval survey compared to those of the standard viewing system, I think we can assume most rational adults would have said, 'don't bother'. Instead they were presented a gallery of images and told to view them with MV where the naive user was mesmerized by the slide show feature as they skipped along from one image to the next. No doubt the "approval" is based on this feature alone, simply because it was (and still is) its only feature. Disappointed. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:12, 16 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am pretty well in total agreement with you on this. After our brief exchange on Wiki Commons I was spurred to find out how to disable MV and have now done so. That is fine for me, but what about the casual user? LynwoodF (talk) 17:10, 16 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

LynwoodF: The ability for IPs to disable Media Viewer with one click, by pulling up the fold and clicking "Disable Media Viewer," deployed on Commons today. It'll be here in a couple of days after further testing on Commons. HTH. Keegan (WMF) (talk) 20:07, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sure it works? Just like the disable checkbox, clicking the disable link doesn't disable MV! Bidgee (talk) 01:56, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I replied to Gwillhickers over on MediaWiki. There was a misunderstanding. Keegan (WMF) (talk) 19:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Who is in charge?

I reproduce here the post I have just made on here: I have a candid (albeit not malicious) question: who is in charge on this? Who decides if, yes, or no, the new Media Viewer becomes the new standard? I'm used at Commons and English Wikipedia to reaching decisions by consensus. Doesn't seem to be the case on this matter, as this particular decison is being taken against a strong opposition of the users!. In other words, what is the point of this very RfC if the decision was already made by someone with the power to make it? Please forgive my ignorance on these basic matters. -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 19:46, 16 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just so you know, Alvesgaspar, I did see your post over on MediaWiki and asked Fabrice to reply. I forgot to leave you a note to that extent, sorry about that. Keegan (WMF) (talk) 19:21, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Alvesgaspar, and thanks for your question. The ultimate decision-maker on whether or not to keep Media Viewer enabled by default is Lila Tretikov, Wikimedia Foundation's Executive Director. On a day-to-day basis, I am in charge of this project as its product manager, in consultation with the multimedia team, and taking into account quantitative measures and feedback from our users. Note that we strive to take all viewpoints in consideration when making these types of feature decisions: the editor community, the readers we all serve and the developers who are most familiar with these features. All those perspectives are considered regularly, through a variety of channels, such as this one. Fabrice Florin (WMF) (talk) 15:27, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 141: / Line 141: @@
 * I reproduce here the post I have just made on [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Multimedia/About_Media_Viewer#Candid_question._who_is_in_charge_on_this.3F here]: ''I have a candid (albeit not malicious) question: who is in charge on this? Who decides if, yes, or no, the new Media Viewer becomes the new standard? I'm used at Commons and English Wikipedia to reaching decisions by consensus. Doesn't seem to be the case on this matter, as this particular decison is being taken against a strong opposition of the users!''. In other words, what is the point of this very RfC if the decision was already made by someone with the power to make it? Please forgive my ignorance on these basic matters. -- [[User:Alvesgaspar|Alvesgaspar]] ([[User talk:Alvesgaspar|talk]]) 19:46, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
 :*Just so you know, [[User:Alvesgaspar|Alvesgaspar]], I did see your post over on MediaWiki and asked [[User:Fabrice Florin (WMF)|Fabrice]] to reply. I forgot to leave you a note to that extent, sorry about that. [[User:Keegan (WMF)|Keegan (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Keegan (WMF)|talk]]) 19:21, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
+::* Hello [[User:Alvesgaspar|Alvesgaspar]], and thanks for your question. The ultimate decision-maker on whether or not to keep Media Viewer enabled by default is Lila Tretikov, Wikimedia Foundation's Executive Director. On a day-to-day basis, I am in charge of this project as its product manager, in consultation with the multimedia team, and taking into account quantitative measures and feedback from our users. Note that we strive to take all viewpoints in consideration when making these types of feature decisions: the editor community, the readers we all serve and the developers who are most familiar with these features. All those perspectives are considered regularly, through a variety of channels, such as this one. [[User:Fabrice Florin (WMF)|Fabrice Florin (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Fabrice Florin (WMF)|talk]]) 15:27, 18 June 2014 (UTC)