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Infobox college football player (2)

Alakzi, what's the reason for this coding: [1]? I thought I was deleting the low-value "high school" wiki-link, and I simply imitated the coding for other parameters. What did I screw up here? I'm trying to learn on the fly, and your plain English explanation will accelerate my learning curve. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:14, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

You were imitating the header syntax, but the school name is printed on the same line as its label. The code simply reads: if highschool is non-empty, print "High school: " and the value of highschool. You'd changed it to print just "High school". Alakzi (talk) 04:21, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Okay, that's a pretty good plain English explanation. See, I told you I might break the wiki.

Having looked at the code for your sandbox template, I believe you are using the preferred version of simplified parameter labels coding for parameter 3 through 15, but are using HTML mark-up for the "team" and "number" in order to have them appear in the color bar at the top -- correct? How problematic is this? WP:ACCESS and Wikipedia:WikiProject Accessibility/Infoboxes offer precious little guidance on point; in fact, there is zero mention of displayed infobox field labels for machine readability. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:55, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

@Dirtlawyer1: "Quarterback; Senior" is particularly problematic; when read aloud by a screen reader, it'll be read like any other key–value pair in the table, i.e. with an equal-length pause. Generally, omitting the label is not a good idea. I know that "Senior" means senior (education), but only because I looked up the parameter name. Alakzi (talk) 12:14, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Yup. I knew that was going to be a problem, too, when I was reviewing the coding and labels last night. Need to be labeled "Position" and "Class," respectively. Having them both on the same line of text was much more space-efficient, however, and made sense in a sports context. I would suggest that you add both labels, so that we have those two label elements in the mix as we experiment with the revised layout of the infobox. May I copy these last two comments to the template talk page with your permission? I think it's important that others who are following that discussion be able to see these for their own understanding. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:15, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome to do that. Alakzi (talk) 13:21, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Hey. Can you add proper auto-archive to the template talk page? Maybe every 30 or 60 days? We're going to bury this talk page before we're done. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:06, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

@Dirtlawyer1: I can, but archival bots won't archive subsections independently of an enclosing section, so no part of "Accessible & semantic version" will be archived. Alakzi (talk) 02:11, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Understood. We should at least get the stuff from prior years off the page. The present design discussion should probably be kept together, regardless of length. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:18, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

When you have a few minutes, can you take a look at this: [2]? I would like to add 1-pixel white lines between the primary color bar and the secondary color accents, but I have no clue how to code that. If you can show me how to do that in one example, I can tinker with it to build the examples I want to present for graphics options. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:26, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Please accept my sincere apology for this: [3]. I had not received a response, and mistakenly assumed you were consumed with other work. I will not make a similar request of you and Frietjes -- or any other two template editors -- again. I'm deeply sorry for any inconvenience I have caused you. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:25, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

@Dirtlawyer1: No hard feelings - and I'm sorry for snapping at you. Anyway, Frietjes has spent a lot of time on college colours and would've been better able to fulfil your request. Alakzi (talk) 14:39, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I really am sorry, chief -- I hope you did not expend much time on my request. Your assistance over the past ten days has been invaluable in creating what has become the best athlete bio infobox now in existence. You have repeatedly bridged the gap between the "vision" for this infobox and the need to satisfy the preferred wiki-coding and accessibility concerns. Even the example college stripe graphics scheme was your handiwork. We would not have gotten this far without you.

Alakzi, can we go live with the current sandbox version of the template, including the two-color graphics? Assuming there are no major issues discovered, let's take it for a 48-hour test drive, and see what bugs, if any, we can find across the 900+ transclusions of the infobox. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:03, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

@Dirtlawyer1: OK, I've applied all of the recent changes, including the new header style and parameter order, to the main template. I'll be around if anything breaks (hope not). Alakzi (talk) 15:24, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. The only problem of which I am aware is a function of the handful of teams that use near-white colors (e.g., "cream") as their second team color. I'll try to get that issue sorted with Frietjes, but I figured it would be easier to discuss with live examples. I'll let you know if I see anything that requires us to pull the plug until fixed. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:00, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Standardized infobox for all NCAA sports teams

If you want to understand where I want to take this next, please read my comments on Frietjes' talk page regarding a standardized infobox for all NCAA sports teams, using the graphics you have built for Infobox college football player. Now that's a "merge" of multiple templates that should warm the cockles of Andy's heart while advancing the long-term goals of the college sports WikiProjects. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:56, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you; I will take a look. I assume that would be most of the infoboxes in this category? Alakzi (talk) 15:20, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. Most (but not all) NCAA sports use a similar tournament structure to determine yearly national champions. With customization (switches, modules, etc.), we could use a standardized infobox template for the overwhelming majority, if not all, of the listed templates in the linked category. I have a strong suspicion that the overwhelming majority of sports editors would love the colors, graphics, and layout and design you have built for Infobox college football player. Now that we have a working example, I think this would be an extremely easy sell for WP:College basketball and WP:College baseball; I expect WP:College football would adopt the graphics and layout, but may resist a single template because of the significant differences built into that particular infobox. The other college sports do not have independent WikiProjects and usually follow the lead of the WPs for college football, basketball and baseball, where most of the leadership resides. This all could finally come together in a Big Way. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:38, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, that sounds like a great initiative to me. Let me know how I can help. It looks like Frietjes is gonna sort out the colours, so I shouldn't interfere with that. Alakzi (talk) 16:04, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I had no idea that Frietjes was as far along with upgrading her college colors module as she apparently is; it appears we could go live with the college varsity stripe graphics in Infobox college football player in a very few days.

As for the standardized infobox initiative for college sports teams, there will be plenty of work for every template editor who wants to help. Shoot, I'd love to have Andy involved, too -- if we can agree at the outset to use the colors, graphics, and layout and design of Infobox college football player which you and Frietjes have created. Not much to argue about under those circumstances, just lots of work for everyone who wants to help. We could potentially eliminate 20 or more existing sport-specific templates, while significantly improving everything. If we do the proposed replacement template at the outset, the TfD merge discussion would be a slam-dunk, and the TfD could be used to get feedback for anything we missed in the preliminary development phase. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:26, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Okay. I've had the opportunity to review 200+ of the 900+ uses of Infobox CFB player; the biggest problems I've seen have nothing to do with the template, but bad input data. Frietjes has got the colors about 99% worked out; the minor fixes for the remaining secondary color issues can be handled on the fly. That means we can contemplate using her college colors palette for the other purposes discussed above. Do you have time to take on the merge project for most, if not all, college sports team infoboxes? In addition to Frietjes' college team colors, I contemplate using the same basic graphics, color scheme, and layout and design we used for Infobox CFB player. Are you up for this one? I would also like to have Frietjes involved to the extent of her available wiki-time. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:16, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

OK, let's begin with merging all of the team infoboxes. Would you be able to identify the parameters they've got in common, as a start, or should I do that? Alakzi (talk) 22:23, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm happy to start compiling a list of common parameters -- that's a relatively straightforward exercise. The handful of sport-specific parameters (including variations in NCAA tournament structure) are what will make this exercise interesting -- I will rely on your expertise to recommend toggles/switches and/or modules as the most appropriate way(s) to handle the variations. I'll start lists of common parameters and sport-specific variations in a sandbox and ping you with a link. As always, I'm glad to have the benefit of your skill set and experience. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:39, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

@Dirtlawyer1: Thank you. I've made a start here. Alakzi (talk) 23:26, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Okay -- I will start compiling the parameter lists on the talk page for your sandbox. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:31, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Station header style

STOP! See City Hall (C-Train) and many many others. Why would make mindless a application of some rule that you think improves visibility but actually makes it worse. Have you looked? Secondarywaltz (talk) 17:29, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I have looked. They will all be fixed in a moment; we're moving |type= into its own cell. Alakzi (talk) 17:30, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

OK. I will wait. Infobox station is becoming a huge mess, caused by several merges. Some template editors don't appear to really understand the application or the subject matter. Be careful. Secondarywaltz (talk) 17:44, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm aware; we're trying to sort the mess out. We'll be trimming a swathe of poorly thought-out parameters over the next few days. Alakzi (talk) 18:04, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes I could see by some of the usage checks you have been doing. I will cleanup some of the redundancy, like I did at Richmond Hill, where the type is really just the owner. Thanks. Secondarywaltz (talk) 18:08, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Alakzi (talk) 18:10, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

@Secondarywaltz: Please see my proposal here. Alakzi (talk) 20:16, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Feedback

The symbol/logo looks too small where I have seen it used. Almost illegible in the Stockholm metro. My previous thought on the STM style was to make it resemble the modern station signage of dark blue with the yellow stripe on the bottom. The Sankt Eriksplan metro station shows what I mean. Secondarywaltz (talk) 20:40, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I could bump the size of the logo in {{Rail-interchange}} to the maximum of 20 px, but it won't be perfectly aligned with the text. Alakzi (talk) 21:03, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Looks OK at Bloor-Yonge (TTC) where the symbols are 20px. Secondarywaltz (talk) 21:10, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

They were inserted manually. {{Infobox station}}'s |symbol= is not floated. I've increased the size to 18 px. Alakzi (talk) 21:13, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Request for deletion

Thanks for being involved with the picture deletions on some of my pictures. I cannot, however, delete the pictures cause I don't know how to. Can you nominate these to speedy deletion? Thanks. HanSangYoon (talk) 03:14, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

@HanSangYoon: Place "{{db-author}}" on the page, like this. Only do it on a couple at first. Alakzi (talk) 10:59, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Infobox New York City Subway station

What do you make of {{Infobox New York City Subway station}}? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:40, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

I quite like the fact that it's got a regular "Services" parameter underneath "Lines", which doesn't force the use of succession boxes; I wish it'd been done this way in {{Infobox station}}. It looks like quite some work's gone into standardising it with {{Infobox station}}, so it could probably be merged or at least made a wrapper of the latter, if there's any interest. Alakzi (talk) 22:50, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Not quite true! The parameters comparable to services in the NYCS Infobox are, next_north, next_south, next_north_acc and next_south_acc, which all use a custom succession sub-template system. Much more complex. Secondarywaltz (talk) 23:39, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying. Alakzi (talk) 00:14, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

In addition, there are other parameters, like wifi, wifi_custom_ref, and layout that are custom designed for the NYC Subway infobox. Epic Genius (talk) 02:20, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I was hoping it might be merged, or made a wrapper. Stuff like Wi-Fi is in WP:NOTDIRECTORY territory. On, for example, Mount Eden Avenue (IRT Jerome Avenue Line), the "Station service legend" is bloat and has accessibility issues - I can't visually distinguish between several pairs of icons. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 08:30, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

It's not like we'd want to transpose all fifteen service patterns into text, either. But this is the the kind of thing a fair few people are probably very fond of. Have you noticed how the same icons can mean different things? I count three crosshairs, three empty circles and three half moons on that legend. Alakzi (talk) 10:38, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

The icons and stuff are part of New York City Subway nomenclature. There are like 15 different service patterns in the system. You'd have to bring it up at WT:NYCS. Epic Genius (talk) 12:30, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Do you mean that these service pattern icons are used by the NYCS? Alakzi (talk) 12:59, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Yeah... sort of. The icons are invoked using {{NYCS SSI}}, and these icons were uploaded 9 years ago. They aren't official now, but they were official back in 2006. Anyway, these icons denote many different service patterns that can't be explained by simply saying "full-time service" or "part-time service". Epic Genius (talk) 02:27, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

I see, thank you. Well, if the NYCS have disposed of them, we can probably do too. Alakzi (talk) 20:21, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

While the MTA has disposed of these service icons for the NYC Subway, they still use five distinct service periods, so these icons are simply used to clarify what the MTA puts in confusing text. Also, you'll have to bring this up at WT:NYCS. Epic Genius (talk) 20:43, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Epic Genius, I'm not gonna remove them without asking; I'm simply speaking my mind. Alakzi (talk) 20:52, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

That's OK. I misunderstood you for a moment. Epic Genius (talk) 20:53, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Wildfire

Good call on adding "acres" back to the {{Infobox wildfire}}. I added a maintenance category: ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:Deprecated infobox param (acres). Should help with removing any lasting occurrences of 'acres'. --Zackmann08 (talk) 17:03, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! You should probably mention which infobox the parameter belongs to in the name of the cat. Alakzi (talk) 17:23, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Re: Infobox station

FYI. See {{Infobox Korean name}}, which is inserted in other Infoboxes. Secondarywaltz (talk) 15:37, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm aware of it; I suggested its use here. Alakzi (talk) 15:43, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Sorry! I missed that, probably because it was so obvious. Secondarywaltz (talk) 16:20, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Couple more categories to go through before the culling; I cleared |Melway= earlier. Speak up if you've got any other ideas for improvement. Alakzi (talk) 19:29, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

A big problem, as I see it, is the abuse of parameters by overloading or incorrect use. You probably come across this more than I do. Detailed information should be written in the body of the article, but people choose to fill an infobox parameter with an entire list of items rather than the number of them. Your work has shown me that there is a lot of redundancy and overlinking. Our initial contact exposed the widespread use of |type= as a repetion of the operator, owner, line or service. Thanks. Secondarywaltz (talk) 15:11, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

• You have rebundled the groupings and I will review that when I get time. Since I trust in what you are trying to achieve, I will not discuss the removal of some widely used parameters at the moment. I've noticed tweaking of parameters like the addition of |architectural_style=; a logical addition which replaces |structure= in many cases. I don't know where you live, but local authority and borough are administrative areas of local government which seem beyond the scope of an Infobox for a bus/railway station except as a geographic location. For multiple location parameters, potentially being merged, have a look at {{Infobox China station}} for those same kind of levels. Thanks again. Secondarywaltz (talk) 21:21, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
  • How would |architectural_style= replace |structure=? The former's meant for architectural currents, like Baroque, Bauhaus and modernism; the latter is for describing the type of structure, e.g. at-grade, underground or elevated. The local authority parameter has been removed for the reasons you cite. |borough= is a misnomer; it's used for about any country subdivision. Doubtless, it is yet another vestige of a butchered merge. Alakzi (talk) 21:37, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
    • Yes. That was my point. When only a generically named |structure= was available to describe the building, that is where architectural info had to go. Secondarywaltz (talk) 21:44, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
      • Oh right, yes. Alakzi (talk) 21:52, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
        • It was noticed yesterday that a script was run by you to change all stations in Melbourne, Australia to delete the smartcard information and change ADA to disabled and then this morning for Sydney Australia only Central railway station, Sydney‎ was done. Is it planned to run a script to do the other 300 odd stations in Sydney and surroundings which contain this information?Fleet Lists (talk) 22:09, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
          • @Fleet Lists: That's not quite what I was doing; in fact, I was collapsing fare zone information, which had been incorrectly placed in the two smartcard fields, into |zone=. Sydney stations have got this information in the right field; Sydney Central appears to have been an exception. Alakzi (talk) 22:50, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

New train frequency parameter

• @Secondarywaltz: Before I make a formal request - what do you think about the addition of a |train_frequency= parameter for the {{Infobox Deutsche Bahn station}} merge? Alakzi (talk) 01:25, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Probably "Wikipedia is not a timetable" applies to this. Train frequency changes and is therefore not encyclopedic. Secondarywaltz (talk) 02:29, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

@Secondarywaltz: WP:NOTTIMETABLE would support the addition of this parameter: "Distinguish between stating, for example, that a station is served by a certain number of trains per hour, and specifying the times of those trains. The former is information about the significance of the station; the latter is timetable information". |train_frequency= would satisfy the former case. Alakzi (talk) 12:59, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Your comment at ANI

Greetings, I think your comment at ANI went astray. May I recommend double checking to ensure it went where you intended. Cheers! 96.255.237.170 (talk) 21:46, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

No, it did not go astray; Tutelary mentioned me by name as a contributor to the draft. Thanks for checking with me anyway. Alakzi (talk) 21:57, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Module:RfD

I am not arguing against the module (well not at WP:RFD, this is the usual separation of concerns that a software engineer does all the time) but that the redirect is harmful. I am only arguing about the redirect there.

Thank you for making Wikipedia better, I try to do the same. Si Trew (talk) 22:40, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

OK, could you outline the steps required to reproduce the error at the MfD then? Alakzi (talk) 22:42, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Box bot?

Think I better start a new thread, related to the above where you said that Category:Book articles without infoboxes has entries for books which have an infobox. I could imagine that a simple bot could check for this discrepancy and fix it, but don't know how to describe the task where. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:31, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@Magioladitis: We'd like to flip the switch in the WikiProject Banner of all articles in Category:Book articles without infoboxes which do contain an infobox - would this be possible with AWB? We'd have to check for the presence of "{{Infobox book" (case insensitive) in the source of the article, then change |needs-infobox=yes in {{WikiProject Books}} on the talk page to "no" - or remove the parameter entirely. Alakzi (talk) 14:50, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@Alakzi: yes, I can do that via AWB. I can remove the parameter if the page has infobox. I have done something similar in the past. -- Magioladitis (talk) 18:23, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

I'd be happy to do it if it's too much trouble, though you're gonna have to tell me how. Alakzi (talk) 18:45, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@Alakzi: Do the following:

1. Open AWB
2. Login
3. Get sure the article list is empty
4. Go to plugins and load the No limits plugin
5. Go to List comparer
6. On the left panel select "Category" and as source "Book articles without infoboxes"
7. On the right panel select "What transcludes pages (NL, admin, bot)" and as source "Template:Infobox book"
8. Right click on the right list and "Convert to talk pages"
9. Press compare
10. The middle list contains those in the category that their article page has the infobox
11. Press use list
12. Close the compare window
13. Run a custom module to remove |infobox= from {{WikiProject Books}} banner. I hane created a similar module in the past here. -- Magioladitis (talk) 18:54, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@Magioladitis: Thanks a lot. I've got rid of it from about 170 banners, but it looks like I've hit a limit with "What transcludes page" - I can't use the admin/bot function. Alakzi (talk) 19:40, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

You missed only 18: User:Magioladitis/sandbox. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:50, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

All done, thanks again. Alakzi (talk) 19:54, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Language is all Chinese to me, but sounds like success, thank you both!! That was books then. The other mentioned was Category:Biography articles without infoboxes, remember ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:51, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

{{Infobox person}} alone has about 190,000 transclusions; my query limit is 25,000, so I won't be doing this one. Perhaps Magioladitis will oblige us. Alakzi (talk) 21:03, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for turning your service from secret to open ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:13, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

I shall be awaiting the cabal sticker to arrive in the mail. Alakzi (talk) 22:54, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

You have that wrong. If you "turn your service from secret to open", you'll get thrown out of the cabal. YHBW. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:39, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

If you await a sticker or something else sticky you may get disappointed: expect nothing substantial, only merri dew --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:16, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

another example please

Could you add another side-by-side example box to Changing from gold/silver/bronze to 1/2/3. This time with the high contrast G,S,B instead of 1,2,3? Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:01, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Film infoboxes

Please could you use your script to compare {{Infobox film}} and {{Infobox television film}}? Cheers, Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:13, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

See Special:Diff/659162720 (assuming {{Infobox film}} is the merge target). Alakzi (talk) 16:32, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. A web-based interface to your script would be useful. Until then, are you happy to field similar requests? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:51, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I'd be happy to do that. Alakzi (talk) 18:54, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks again. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:57, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Nominated for merging at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2015 April 25#Template:Infobox television film. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:56, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

More tracking categories for Medal template

Hi! During the deletion discussion of {{Sailing competition result}} all those template inclusions got replaced by {{Medal}}, which made all non-medal entries turn blank like they did here. Because of the replacement it's not possible to find these articles anymore, however as far as I understand they could be tracked down by hidden categories (looking for 4th, 5th entries et cetera) that I don't exactly know how to add to the infobox template. As I saw you've added others of those, would you please do that for me? Smartskaft (talk) 13:10, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

See Category:Articles using Template:Medal with unrecognised first positional argument; it might take a few days to fill up. Alakzi (talk) 13:17, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much! Smartskaft (talk) 13:22, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

TPS: Smartskaft, on a related, but different point, please note the British/UK athletes in the Olympics represent "Great Britain," and not the "United Kingdom". For these British athletes in the Olympics, you should use flag icon {{GBR2}}, not flag icon {{GBR}}; GBR2 renders "Great Britain" for this purpose. See, e.g., British sailor Peter Allam, which needs to be corrected. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:27, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Subst {{cite isbn}}

Hello, the process of substituting {{cite isbn}} appears to have broken short form references as the |ref= has not been transffered down as per this edit. Keith D (talk) 18:54, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm reviewing all of them now; there were a couple other hiccups. It usually did copy over |ref=harv. Alakzi (talk) 19:04, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Actually, that did not work before, either; {{Cite isbn/978190299000}} takes no |ref= argument. Alakzi (talk) 19:16, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for replacing cite ISBN with cite book. Hopefully we can get rid of cite ISBN in the end. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:28, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

• Can you please point to where the consensus not to user cite isbn is? There's no indication of this on the template talk page. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 20:57, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
  • There is a link to the discussion in the banner. Alakzi (talk) 21:20, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
    • That's a discussion about {{cite doi}}. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:48, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
      • I was fulfilling what I consider to be a good-faith request by longtime editors in good standing; please raise your concerns at WP:BOTREQ#subst cite isbn. Thanks! Alakzi (talk) 21:51, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Infobox NCAA athlete > > Infobox college football player

Hey. I've spent several hours reviewing the first 100 transclusions of Infobox NCAA athlete over the last day, and I think your idea regarding a "merge" of Infobox NCAA athlete with Infobox college football player deserves to be seriously explored, and it would be completely consistent with the development of a common and visually distinctive graphics scheme for American college sports. My initial reaction is the revamped Infobox NCAA athlete should exist as a wrap of Infobox college football, with a module with a half dozen or so options to accommodate college sports other than football. This, of course, is as far as my thinking takes me now, and better ideas might present themselves after we both have had time to explore the existing uses and discuss the available technical options. I'm still trying to get a better sense as to which college sports still need an infobox template that isn't being provided elsewhere by a sport-specific template. In any event, something needs to be done to incorporate the existing Infobox NCAA athlete into a coordinated regime for all college sports, even if that means that it is simply replaced or merged out of existence after we've had time to assess the best options. This was a good catch on your part, and I appreciate the fact that you are actively exploring options that others have overlooked. There are also elements of the old Infobox NCAA athlete that we should consider using in the revamped Infobox college football player -- but more about that later. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:52, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

With the exception of the handful of external links, which do not - in fact - belong in the infobox, all of {{Infobox college football player}}'s parameters are suitable for baseball and basketball players. Therefore, my suggestion would be to delete {{Infobox NCAA athlete}} as redundant, and repurpose the football player infobox (tidy up the parameters and rename it to whatever's preferable) for these three use cases. Notable non-professional athletes of other college sports appear to be very rare indeed. I do not believe that it'd be worth the effort and bloat to accommodate them in a generic college athlete infobox; they could use {{Infobox sportsperson}} or any of its derivatives. Alakzi (talk) 16:49, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

@Bagumba: What do you think? Alakzi (talk) 16:57, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

WP:WikiProject College basketball and WP:Baseball currently use a common infobox regardless of level of play, {{Infobox basketball biography}} and {{Infobox baseball biography}}, respectively. The basketball discussion can be seen at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_College_Basketball/Archive_4#Proposal_to_migrate_men.27s_college_basketball_players_and_coaches_to_Template:Infobox_basketball_biography. An advantage cited was eliminating the need to convert infoboxes when players turn pro. I'm guessing there is more overlap among editors of a particular sport who edit both the college and pro levels, than perhaps there are editors that edit multiple sports but mostly as the college level. Perhaps the same would apply to readers and the experience they would prefer? Without a poll of readers, the decision of whether to be uniform within sport or by level (college vs pro) is gut instinct by editors or just arbitrary.

Right or wrong, college football is unique among the major American sports in maintaining a separate infobox. Moreover, basketball and baseball projects both remove team colors when a player is no longer active (e.g Hank Gathers); college football chooses to leave the alma mater's colors in perpetuity. IMO the college and NFL boxes don't look all that different as far as content—their parameters are predominantly the same. There are ways to make usage of a template easier if we are open to being creative, but it seems fear of a bad merge or loss of control, i.e. not invented here, may be the overriding sentiment with college football. If there is interest in using a common college infobox for other sports, I suggest the involved WikiProjects as a whole be engaged.—Bagumba (talk) 18:01, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

For whatever it's worth, it took me all of fifteen minutes to merge the two templates; see the demo. There'll be a swathe of parameters that college football players don't need and we're gonna have to compromise on the style. But both of those are quite minor hurdles, and I'd like to think that a consistent look is - actually - a plus. On one hand, I do not believe that a merge is an absolute necessity; on the other, the fuss we've been kicking is - simply - unwarranted. Alakzi (talk) 18:59, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

If nobody objects to continuing the manual conversion from college to NFL, then consensus is clear at the WikiProject level. I usually stay out of that gnomish work anyways and am more active in basketball, so I'm only invested in this issue in principle to gain consensus where the last TfD left off.—Bagumba (talk) 19:56, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

What consensus is there? Alakzi (talk) 20:32, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Barring other input, WP:CFB and WP:NFL (also invited) seems content to stick with status quo of separate infobox for college football and NFL.—Bagumba (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

The majority believes in maintaining the status quo, but I'd not call that a consensus - not by a long shot. It is also unclear to me why this discussion couldn't have been held at TfD, where people with technical knowledge and prior experience with infobox merges could've weighed in; the previous nom was for merging with the gridiron infobox. Alakzi (talk) 22:31, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

You are right. To be precise, there is no consensus to merge (yet/ever), resulting in staying with status quo. The voluminous text could discourage the participation of some who have general technical knowledge of infoboxes, but lack a background on American football specifics. Mockups and side-by-side parameter comparisons could help bridge the gap.—Bagumba (talk) 23:45, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

It is also unclear to me why this discussion couldn't have been held at TfD: The last TfD was contentious, and there was a point from the closer about working with involved WikiProjects in a perhaps less polarizing environment. I was also trying to gain consensus on the local level, and avoid another round of rallying against "outsiders". As it is, at least the WP:LOCALCONSENSUS seem clear.—Bagumba (talk) 23:55, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

OK, if I understand you correctly, you don't think that it's worth spending any more time arguing, considering that there appears to be an agreement among the project participants. Alakzi (talk) 23:58, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Since I dont manually convert the templates, nor am I a frequent template editor tasked with maintaining similar purpose templates, and based on the level of interest so far, I'm not invested enough to open a TfD.—Bagumba (talk) 00:13, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Let's leave it at that then, unless Dirtlawyer1 has any ideas. Alakzi (talk) 01:45, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

The color scheme that college football has is an improvement. I wonder if a generic infrastructure to apply team colors of any sport/level uniformly can be available to be leveraged by all. Unless there's project trademarks here.—Bagumba (talk) 19:56, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Project trademarks? What do you mean? Alakzi (talk) 20:32, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

The argument that college football players must be visually distinct from pro football players, possibly even in striping schemes.—Bagumba (talk) 20:36, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

When Bagumba said "trademark," what he really meant to say was "branding." And on this narrow point, he is correct: the idea is to brand all American college sports articles with a common and identifying set of color graphics, including the college varsity stripe that you and Frietjes collaborated to create at my request. The college varsity stripe originated in British university colleges -- the universities' constituent colleges that sponsored their sports teams -- and the patterns were often incorporated into their neckties, sweaters and scarves, and eventually into their sports kit like rugby jerseys, athletic singlets, etc. American Ivy League schools imported the British tradition into the United States, and eventually most American college sports teams adopted some form of varsity stripe into their sports uniforms if not other articles of non-sports clothing. As such, the college varsity stripe is a perfect symbolic graphic scheme to use as for college sports, and you can still see modern variations of the varsity stripe on football helmets and the side stripes of uniform pants in various college sports. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:38, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

P.S. Some time in the next few days, I think we need to circle back around and wrap up the Template:Medal discussion, and implement the medal icons for the medal tables. That discussion seems to have run its full course. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:52, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Nomination for merging of Template:Infobox rail line

Template:Infobox rail line has been nominated for merging with Template:Infobox rail service. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. Jc86035 (talk • contribs) Use {{re|Jc86035}} to reply to me 08:10, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Template:MedalCountry

Hey. Can you remove the double-bolding of the output text in this template? Double-bolding almost always looks odd, especially when juxtaposed with the other templates with which this one is always used (see, e.g., the infobox medals table in Bill Smith (swimmer)). Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:01, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I've looked at the talk page and its archives and only found a lone comment asking for the same, so Done. I'll revert if anybody complains (not unlikely; this is exactly the kind of thing somebody's bound to kick up a fuss about). Alakzi (talk) 00:15, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Okay. Text is now ordinary, completely unbolded text. Can you make it bolded text -- but not double-bolded? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:20, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

What browser are you using? Alakzi (talk) 00:22, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I usually use Firefox, but keep Internet Explorer handy for a handful of websites that run better with IE. In the Bill Smith example above, Template:MedalSport displayed as bold, Template:MedalCountry (prior to your edit) displayed as double-bold -- bold and double-bold being visually quite distinct. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:26, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

OK, I thought you meant that the second row shouldn't be in bold. The typographic term for double-bold is either "black" or "heavy". Anyway, it should be fixed now. Alakzi (talk) 00:36, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you -- Perfect. We continue to bring stylistic harmony to chaos. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:48, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I worry that there'll be no more work to do on infoboxes before long, and I might actually be forced to write an article. Alakzi (talk) 00:50, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Now there's a scary prospect. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:22, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Template:MedalGold, etc.

Hey, Alakzi. When you have some time, can you take a look at the present graphics being used in the medals table for Infobox sailor? (See, e.g., Jean-Baptiste Charcot.) The circular icons for gold, silver and bronze medals (with corresponding numerals 1, 2 and 3) are significantly more attractive and more space efficient than the color block and text graphics currently employed for gold, silver and bronze medals in the generic medals templates. (See, e.g., Dara Torres.) Can we explore replacing the text/colorblock graphics with medal icons for the generic templates? We could often use the extra 5 or 6 characters this should make available on each line of text within the infobox medals table, and avoid line-wraps within the medals tables more easily . . . . Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:26, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I've replied at the TfD. Alakzi (talk) 19:43, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I think the icons discussion is probably a sidebar at the TfD, so I'm back here. Here's an example of the typical line-wrapping problem in the medals table for Infobox sportsperson and its derivatives like Infobox swimmer: Chris Fydler. If we could free up some space by replacing the "Gold," "Silver" and "Bronze" color bars with color-coded circular icons (e.g., simple gold circle with a "1"), we could simultaneously improve the graphic appearance and free up some additional space. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:04, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I've made the change to {{Medal}}. The MedalX series of templates, which is what's used in Chris Fydler, is deprecated. Alakzi (talk) 18:40, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Wow. That certainly solved the line-wrapping problem. Now, we shall see if anyone objects. Personally, I think it it's a huge improvement, but we shall see over the next few days -- I've watch-listed the template talk page to see if anyone comments. Thanks for the quick turnaround. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:49, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Ah. I see now that this only modifies Template:Medal, not the MedalX template series. How would you suggest we deal with the several thousand uses of MedalX? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:52, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Convert the MedalX templates into {{Medal}} wrappers. Problem solved. Alakzi (talk) 18:58, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I suppose we need to have a TfD on point, eh? Do you want to play point? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:04, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

No TfD is necessary; this is all it takes. Alakzi (talk) 19:07, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

 Done You are smart. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:17, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Glad to have been of service milord. Alakzi (talk) 19:26, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

@Dirtlawyer1: It's been reverted. Alakzi (talk) 11:25, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I know. With zero comment or edit summary. We have several supporters, however. I am contemplating how to proceed, but we probably should have a discussion on the template talk page. Can you prepare mock-ups of a 5 to 10-medal table -- one with the medal icons and one with color bars for side-by-side comparison -- for a talk page discussion? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:18, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Sillyfolkboy beat us to the punch, and has already started a template talk page discussion: [4]. Works for me -- I've already spoken my peace in support. Thanks again for initiating this; I'm content to let SFB play lead now. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:09, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Do you still want me to mock something up? Alakzi (talk) 15:45, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Probably not necessary now. SFB restored your "bold" changes, so they are currently displayed on the template talk page. I've notified all of the affected sports projects so everyone can have their say-so if they feel compelled, but I expect this will now pass without much further controversy. Your changes are self-evident improvements over the pre-existing graphics. And the sailing guys will get to keep their medal icons in more or less the same form. Everyone should be happy, right? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:33, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Happy? There are no happy people on Wikipedia. Alakzi (talk) 19:08, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm a pretty happy guy (most days), and I'm surely not the only one. I must say, however, that I am generally much happier when I stay away from ANI, AE, SPI, etc.; unfortunately, circumstances sometimes require participation in those forums. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:17, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, you're one of the most laid-back editors I've met. I've had the misfortune to become entangled in a couple of infobox debates - on one occasion I was asked whether I am or merely pretend to be an idiot. Alakzi (talk) 19:48, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

... which reflects the one who asked more than you ;) - actually I am happy more often than not, ignoring a lot, including the monkeys on my talk, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:52, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

For more jolly times, see Template talk:Infobox station#Template-protected edit request on 18 April 2015 - talk about blowing things out of proportion. Alakzi (talk) 23:09, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

ps: plenty of possible work on cats such as Category:Book articles without infoboxes --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:56, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Golly, that's a lot of them. I see that many do have an infobox, but nobody's bothered to update the WikiProject banner categorisation thingamajig. Alakzi (talk) 23:04, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

All it takes is to revert the parameter "needs infobox" on the article talk. "Books" is one cat of several, see Category:Biography articles without infoboxes and subcats ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:12, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

"Laid back?" Well, I usually operate on the theory you catch more flies with honey . . . But I can still throw a sharp elbow when I think the circumstances require. It's usually best to ignore the over-the-top rhetoric, and if you can't do that, ignore the user spouting it altogether. Sometimes the really aggressive types overplay their hand and discredit themselves; unfortunately, others are better at playing the "baiting" game. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:54, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

BTW, we still need to resolve how to reflect "disqualified" in the graphics for this template. I would suggest a reddish background with a diagonal line drawn through the medal. This should be a fairly rare use, because it should only apply when a medal has been awarded and then subsequently taken away. In the last 40 years, this has almost always been a result of an athlete failing a urinalysis for PEDs after the event was over. Anyone who is disqualified before the medals were awarded (e.g., illegal start, etc.) should not be reflected in the medals table. I would suggest we let the present talk page discussion run its course, and deal with this after the fact. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:56, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

SFB has removed the medal icons from winner and runner-up, so disqualified isn't the only odd one anymore. Alakzi (talk) 19:58, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I've never seen the winner, runner-up or playoff options in actual use. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:03, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Here's an example of the present "disqualified" in actual use: Dennis Mitchell. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:17, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

FYI, User:Fyunck has requested a mock-up of the old graphics of the medals table for side-by-side comparison: [5]. I suggest you use some of the longer event names, longer location names, and silver and bronze medals to illustrate the line-wrapping problems. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:01, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Yeah . . . unless the tracking category is just taking a very long time to populate [6], it looks like use of the "playoff" option is indeed a pretty rare bird. In fact, it may be completely unused. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:39, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

There's a job queue, which can take from minutes to days (or so I've been told); the MediaWiki engineers are very British. I created this category yesterday; I know there should be hundreds of articles in it, but currently there's a grand total of six. Alakzi (talk) 22:43, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Interesting. All the more reason I shan't stay up late waiting for the tracking category to populate. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:48, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Still empty . . . either it's a very long job queue, or the option "playoffs" option is not in use. We shall see. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:15, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Alakzi, can we try white 1-2-3 characters reversed out of the gold-silver-bronze medal icons? I'm certain that will improve the contrast for the silver and bronze medals, and it's probably a wash for the gold medal. Also, do we have available colors that would more closely approximate gold, silver and bronze than the bright yellow, medium grey and medium brown presently in use? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:15, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

There's one entry in the category now. Try toying with these. Alakzi (talk) 13:50, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

All-black text: User:Alakzi/Medal icon User:Alakzi/Medal icon User:Alakzi/Medal icon

All-white text: User:Alakzi/Medal icon User:Alakzi/Medal icon User:Alakzi/Medal icon

Max contrast text? User:Alakzi/Medal icon User:Alakzi/Medal icon User:Alakzi/Medal icon

Hmmm. The black text on brown/bronze background yields horrible contrast. White or black text on the gray/silver background looks like a toss-up. To my eye, black text on bright yellow provides marginally more contrast than white text on the same background. As an alternative, we could use a different shade of yellow/gold and go with all white text. Is it possible to add a black outline to the white text for contrast? Thoughts? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:13, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@Dirtlawyer1: I'd probably go with the max contrast set, i.e. as they originally were. I don't think there's much room to change the colours; they need to be very distinctive. Here's the second set with an outline (text shadow). Alakzi (talk) 20:34, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

User:Alakzi/Medal icon User:Alakzi/Medal icon User:Alakzi/Medal icon

@Dirtlawyer1: Three more in that category now; {{Medal}} should definitely not be used for soccer cups and league championships. Alakzi (talk) 23:07, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

No, they should not. When the template talk page discussion wraps in a few days, we'll need to figure out how to deal with some of the non-medal functions that have been engrafted onto this template. I have a good relationship with the association football/soccer guys, and I suspect they don't want non-existent medals, etc., in their infoboxes; they have a fairly standardized way of formatting their player infoboxes. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:37, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

This usage is documented in {{Infobox football biography}}; scroll down to "{{{medaltemplates}}}". Prior to this edit, the parameter's recommended use was for the Olympics. Alakzi (talk) 00:16, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

We also need to understand how the "winner" and "runner-up" options are being used. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:45, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

When you have a little time, can you see what is necessary to encode the mouse-over "reveal text" function for the three medal icons? I think we want something like "Gold medal - 1st place" for each of the three icons. A couple of the "supports" were conditioned on the use of mouse-over text, and with their support, the tally stands 8–2 in favor for the new G-S-B icons. I would like to implement the new graphics some time this week, and then we can discuss what to do about the disqualified, playoff, winner, and runner-up options. As you noted above, it would appear the playoff, winner and runner-up option were inserted by an association football editor, and their present use is limited to football/soccer. I would be interested to hear the opinion of User:GiantSnowman, who is a long-time association football editor, administrator and informal leader of WP:FOOTY. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:53, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

These icons were made in CSS for demonstration purposes; someone's gonna have to make the necessary changes to the SVG icons and upload them on Commons. Alakzi (talk) 17:07, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Okay. Who do we talk to about creating the new SVG icons? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:17, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Dirtlawyer1: Done - check the testcases. Alakzi (talk) 12:28, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

• Hey, Alakzi, I think we're nearly ready to move on implementing the new medal icons with mouse-over reveal text for Template:Medal. One small tweak. In the Template:Medal/testcases, we need to tweak the bronze medal icon to use a white text "B". Other than that, I'm waiting to hear whether Sillyfolkboy will accept the G-S-B compromise. If so, we have a 9–2 !majority and solid consensus to implement the switch to the new circular medal icons. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:33, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I've kept the original bronze shade for consistency with the numeric icons. White text would not improve the bronze medal's contrast. Alakzi (talk) 22:51, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
    • The original dark brown background color for the bronze medal icon is fine. However, the contrast between the dark brown background and black text is miserable on certain screens and devices -- I thought we were already in agreement on this as the "max contrast set" per the discussion above? The contrast is passable on my desktop monitor, but on the LED screens for my laptop and mobile phone, the contrast is very poor. In fact, from certain angles on LED screens the black text is practically invisible on the dark brown background. Have you run a comparison using Frietjes' contrast calculator? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:14, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
      • See http://snook.ca/technical/colour_contrast/colour.html#fg=000000,bg=CC9966. According to this tool, the original colour combination provides better contrast. Alakzi (talk) 23:42, 2 May 2015 (UTC)