Talk:Bill Cosby

Let's be very careful with the sexual assault information WP:ALIVE

I am noticing that a lot of content is being added rather quickly as soon as an article in some website can be used as a reference. Let's remember that as horrible as the allegations are, this is still the Biography of a Living Person and should be treated with the utmost care, verifiability and neutrality. Let's also remember that Wikipedia is NOT a Newspaper and we do not need to include every detail of an unfolding story. Not only are we not here to break news, but we have an expectation to be reliable. If any new information is available about the sexual assault allegations, let's all see it and talk about it before it gets put into the article and potentially removed as more information comes out. If it is very obvious that something is true and has a lot of sources and no one is disagreeing, then we put stuff in the article. Otherwise, if there is a dispute, then we SHOULD NOT put that contested information in. This is a living person! We should all try to make this article clear and everlasting, but let's wait until the smoke clears a bit before writing things down on an encyclopedia. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 04:28, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Very much agreed. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:09, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Hamsterlopithecus, that single addition should not have happened here. It belongs in the subarticle. Otherwise, ALIVE does not apply to such properly sourced content when placed in the right article in the proper manner. It's fixed now, so this is a moot issue. There are many very experienced editors working on this, long before you arrived here. We're on top of it, we know the context of the issue, we know the sources, we know the historical development of both articles, we know the policies, and we have the experience to deal with these issues. This was just a goof up, not a real trend, so you don't need to worry that this type of thing will run amok. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:16, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree but at the same time will respect your decision to leave in it's as is mode that Hamsterlopithecus changed it to. I may revisit this in the future, BUT only in the talk section and allow an administrator to make the change if they deem appropiate at a later date. I almost think we're at the point where this is no longer becoming an alleged set of incidents , rather than a Factual series of events.

ps. My main reason for arguing my point is that this goes beyond accused; And that Drugging & Serial Rape was an actual occupation of Bill Cosby. And the Word Activist could very easily be changed to Serial Rape or Serial Adulterer, since Cosby was using Activism as a cover for his 'alleged' Sex Crimes & Adultery. I will elaborate later at a future date, why I know this to be true and when further factual evidence surfaces as their is factual evidence (that cannot be disproved) in several forms already, (I will elaborate at a future date in the talk section only, thanks) Wwdamron (talk) 12:46, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

BullRangifer, I have replied on the section above to your general comments. Also, although it probably won't affect any experienced editor of wikipedia, discouraging other editors to get involved with an article is probably not the way to go. It would be a shame if someone who really wants to make this article better would read your comments and turn away. It's ok that you (and Wwdamron) feel very attached to this article (and especially this topic), but please take a moment to think of what is best for the entire encyclopedia first. We want everyone to engage in these discussions, that's how the best article's arise. However, please continue to bring your passion on this topic forward and we can all discuss it her in the talk page and agree on what would truly improve the article.

Wwdamron, thank you for understanding. I agree with you that these are horrible things that have happened it's looking like he will be at least criminally charged. But lets wait until all of that happens to write it down on what we hope will be a timeless document. But please keep bringing all that new info here so we can discuss. We should be prepared to put in a carefully worded and agreed upon paragraph once he is charged or convicted (or any other major event like that occurs). Thanks! Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 20:11, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

It's only a matter of time. I don't think charges or a conviction of anything (or any other major event like that) will be necessary. This whole year-long media attention is already a permanent part of the Bill Cosby legacy. Whether or not the irrefutably true relative clause "who is accused of serial rape" is in the first line or not is at this point simply a matter of hair-splitting. His reputation is forever damaged and officiously editing a lead-in sentence will have zero effect on changing that. Bill Cosby was, is and ever will be a man accused of serial rape by dozens of women whom he had known and groomed and who had trusted him. I question the real motives of the edit and history will show (is already showing) me to be right. Peace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Burkeophile (talk • contribs) 04:04, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Hello

Cosby has not been charged or convicted of any crimes. This is the biography page of a living individual. Any wording must include the wording 'alleged' concerning any 'accusations' or even alleged 'admissions' from his deposition as the context of the publication is not yet fully known.Without the qualifier 'alleged' wikipedia becomes nothing more than a dumping ground for scandal mongering. Sincerely A Contributor — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.53.121.210 (talk) 17:38, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, we're obviously aware of that. Read the above. -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:18, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Why lead with "Cosby has been the subject of publicized sexual assault allegations since about 2000." from the get go? That should be deleted or placed in the section below pertaining to the subject. La Fuzion (K lo K) 13:32, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Lafuzion, you are correct. It shouldn't be there. It has been discussed thoroughly in the talk page. I wish they hadn't archived that section since it's still very relevant. If you could please help revert those kinds of unilateral edits, it would be great! The information is there on the lede section, so it's unnecessary for it to be in the first sentence. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 06:43, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Please do not remove a sentence and not place it elsewhere in the article. That was the link to the sexual assault article. Vandalism is not a valid reason to keep it from the lead sentence. Please cite a policy statement to support that rationale. Moreover, Cosby sexual assault scandal has been in the newspapers everyday for nearly a year and been in the papers for years and thus I support keeping it in the lead. --JumpLike23 (talk) 15:42, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Hamsterlopithecus, I agree with JumpLike23. That should remain in the lead sentence. Below I document your slow edit warring. -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 16:49, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Moreover, now that the only mentions of Cosby are in connection with these allegations, his legacy is that of an accused serial rapist, and by his own admission, he led an immoral, adulterous, life, using exactly the method mentioned by his accusers.

The lead sentence here is a summary of the whole lead. It mentions what made him notable, and now this is what keeps him notable. Therefore it should be mentioned in the lead sentence. If he is ever convicted, the "alleged" will be removed. -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 16:54, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

For convenience, here are links to the archived discussions:

• RfC about inclusion in the lead closed as "include the allegations in the lede".

• Discussion about mention in first sentence tended toward inclusion, but not conclusive.

Here's the history of mention in the first sentence:

Lots of confusion because of no consensus discussion

1. first addition by User:Wikister98. (no refs)
2. deleted by User:Jumplike23.
3. restored by User:Wikister98. (no refs)
4. deleted by User:NeilN
5. restored by User:Wwdamron. (no refs)
6. deleted by myself.

After much discussion on the talk page

1. restored by myself per talk page result. (fully referenced)
2. changed by User:Jumplike23.
3. changes reverted, by User:Wwdamron.
4. deleted (vandalized) by User:Austinyoder
5. restored by User:NeilN
6. deleted by User:Hamsterlopithecus.
7. restored by User:Wwdamron.
8. deleted again by User:Hamsterlopithecus.
9. restored by moving by User:Jumplike23, and later fixed by them.
10. deleted (vandalized) by User:Romelo75. (deceptive edit summary)
11. restored by User:NeilN.
12. deleted yet again by User:Hamsterlopithecus.

After the discussion, we only have deletions by Hamsterlopithecus (three deletions, with some support by vandals). Whether this is slow edit warring by Hamsterlopithecus is worth considering. Although there wasn't an overwhelming consensus, it appeared we had a stable version which was protected by several editors, and Hamsterlopithecus was edit warring with those editors. Hamsterlopithecus doesn't seem to understand the summary status of that first sentence, as previously explained to them:

"You fail to realize that this particular lead, and lots of articles do this, uses an introductory lead sentence which summarizes the entire lead (which of course summarizes the whole article). The sexual assault allegations take up the last paragraph in the lead, so the short mention at the end of the lead sentence is justified. It's a parallelism and good writing....

"The subject is still of huge weight, so it deserves some mention in the lead (a whole paragraph in this case), and short mention in the lead sentence."

After the discussion, several other editors saw no problem and kept protecting the content, thus indicating a consensus for inclusion in the first sentence.

I'd like to see an RfC about mention in the first sentence. Hamsterlopithecus, would you like to create one in a new section? Before starting it, please suggest your wording here so we can discuss it. It needs to be something which will not derail the discussion, and be so neutral that all parties will feel comfortable !voting on it. -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 16:43, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

what in Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons supports keeping it out of lead. I actually did not like the previous version that used the word rape. I would just say: "Cosby has been the subject of publicized sexual assault allegations since about 2000." --JumpLike23 (talk) 17:02, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

That's perfectly good wording: "... and the subject of publicized sexual assault allegations since about 2000." -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 20:28, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

The topic of the sexual assault is already being discussed in the last paragraph of the lede because it is, chronologically, where it goes concerning notable things in Cosby's life. There are two reasons for not including the sexual assault charges in the lead sentence and they have been repeated over and over and over in this talk page but you seem to ignore them User:BullRangifer. The two reasons are that: 1) the criminal allegations do not define Cosby's career almost by definition because they are an ongoing event. If that were the case then Michael Jackson's lead sentence should call him a "American singer, songwriter, record producer, dancer, actor, and alleged serial child molester". And 2) This is a living person's biography WP:ALIVE. Regardless of your personal bias and passion for this and other rape-related subjects, as of now, there are no formal charges on Cosby. If, for example, Cosby is acquitted of all charges and the final verdict is that he is innocent (as unlikely, or upsetting as that may be) we would have to remove the "serial rapist" descriptor on the lead sentence. If that is the case, we would have damaged a living person's reputation by jumping the gun with Wikipedia's position on the subject. We don't know right now. So let's keep our eyes open but let's not make moves that we will then have to revert. Unless of course, the whole goal of desperately wanting to add the words "rapist" to the lead sentence is simply to try to damage his reputation for activist purposes. If that is the case, then by all means go for it, but just not on Wikipedia. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 21:09, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Ok, serial rapist is unreasonable. Please respond to my points about what in wikipedia policies supports it not being in the sentence--other than broadly citing to WP:ALIVE. This issue has evolved, with more victims coming forward, more criminal investigations, civil suits, much of his accomplishments on this page being repudiated, for example, the cancellation of shows, dropping of honorary degrees, people like Goldberg no longer supporting, more accusation and the prior discussion thus is not controlling. Thanks again for your speedy response. --JumpLike23 (talk) 21:16, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Just to be clear, juries do not declare innocence. The accused is presumed innocent in the U.S. Juries simply declare "guilty" or "not guilty". Next: "Politicized"? Really? Controversial, sure, but has this matter been politicized? The Terri Schiavo case was politicized in that two opposing camps based on philosophy or religious belief emerged. I've probably missed something, but I don't think this is the case with Cosby. That is, I don't think feminists, Republicans, liberals, libertarians, Democrats, Christians, etc. have taken sides on the matter. That is to say, some folks believe Cosby is a rapist and other folks don't but it doesn't break down along any particular political line. Rklawton (talk) 22:31, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree with both of you. It should be mentioned in the lead. -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 15:38, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

I completely 100% agree with user JumpLike23, that this is evloved and even if Cosby is never brought to a Criminal trial, this will be in his life forever. Allred stated a few days ago more victims will be coming forward. Ofcourse more lawsuits are expected. To compare this with someone like Michael Jackson is perposterous. Jackson had 2 accusers with no witness's. COsby has more than 50 with other people backing up what they said on many of the occasions at or shortly after the rapes or other sexual misconducts happened, except no one would believe them or know what to do at the time because of Cosby's power and influence., Cosby is involved in at least 7 lawsuits, Cosby has been investigated criminally since 2000. And the LA Police have said they would investigate any allegations regardless of statute, meaning Cosby has probably been investigated more than possibly any one else ever in crimes of sexual assault. If the Statute of Limitations did not exist, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what would happen to Cosby. And I am not just talking about criminal prosecutions, He would be pennilesss, there would be more than 50 lawsuits. ALsmot no one (well known) is supporting Cosby. And the few that are , are not speaking.

Finally

Without giving any explanation , answer YES or NO only. Has Cosby been Accussed of Sexual Assault (YES or NO ONLY !) ? If your answer is YES, then CASE CLOSED (Cosby is accused of sexual assault and that is being nice), If NO then all these women are make believe and we should delete the Cosby sexual assault allegation page. Wwdamron (talk) 13:46, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Well said. -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 15:33, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Hamsterlopithecus, I have no special burden for this case. I'm just following our policies and guidelines. You are ignoring the nature of the lead sentence in this article. It is a summary of the lead. That's why the allegations should be mentioned at the end of the sentence, just as the allegations are mentioned in the last paragraph of the lead. It's a parallelism. It's good English writing practice. Beyond that, it is now part of his legacy, and will likely be the final chapter, overshadowing everything he has previously done. It's sad for everyone concerned. -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 15:33, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

It appears we have a consensus for inclusion in the first sentence (or as a following sentence), so which version should we use? The first three are versions we have used (feel free to propose a better version, since we can always change our !votes):

1. ... actor, author, and activist who is accused of serial rape.
2. ... actor, author, and activist. Since about 2000, Cosby has been accused of sexually assaulting numerous women.
3. ... actor, author, and activist. Cosby has been the subject of publicized sexual assault allegations since about 2000.
4. ... actor, author, and activist who is accused of sexually assaulting numerous women.

Which one do you favor? -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 02:16, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

• 4. I tend to favor the shorter options so they don't draw too much attention to themselves. I favor 4 because there are some who were assaulted, but not raped. -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 02:16, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

• 3 without the citations because they are not necessary. --JumpLike23 (talk) 02:30, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

• I agree, but in case of any problems, we can have them there, but hidden. -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 02:35, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

User:BullRangifer, what consensus? The discussion is starting and you suddenly jump the gun again trying to get your way. Please allow people to discuss this issue calmly. I propose this: let's start another section in this talk page to discuss the lead sentence alone and wait until a good number of editors have stated their views. If there is, indeed, a consensus to mention the accusation of rape in the first sentence, then it shall naturally appear there and we will incorporate it into the article then. I will make the section now. I will also remove current mention on the lead sentence until a consensus has been reached in that section. I think this is a reasonable proposal, please help me carry it out. (Apologies for editing your new section, but I had already written this thing out) Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 02:37, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

User:BullRangifer #4 in my opinion, I will let you User:BullRangifer decide since you have the most clout (I did temporarily revert it back to #3, but quickly undid it).

As for User:Hamsterlopithecus, I am almost starting to believe you are a Cosby sympathizer and letting your emotions dictate or that you feel sorry for Cosby. This is not an opinion, these are facts and cannot be dictated my emotions.

FACT - Cosby has been accused by many people of Serial Rape, Sexual Assault and other Sex crimes, with new things surfacing on just about a daily basis, with many witness's to back these women's stories up.

FACT - This is probably the biggest scandal in modern USA history and will be talked about for centuries to come.

CONCLUSION - It would be Vandalism (in my and the majority of peoples opinions) to revert it back if it is changed to one of User:BullRangifer conclusions.

User:BullRangifer please go ahead and change it, number 4 in my opinion, also in my opinion citations are probably not necessary under any of your scenarios except a possible embedded link to Cosby's Sexual assault allegation page in addition to the tex in the very First sentence, but any of the other would be okay for now as well.

Wwdamron (talk) 03:08, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Discussion: Should the lead sentence mention the sexual assault accusations?

Help us reach a consensus on this by sharing what you think. There is currently a brief description of the sexual assault accusations in the last paragraph of the lede, an extensive discussion in a section titled Sexual Assault Allegations, and finally a very thorough description of all the available information in a separate article Bill Cosby sexual assault allegations. The disagreement is whether the first sentence of the Bill Cosby article should or should not mention the sexual assault accusations (or even describe Cosby as an "alleged serial rapist"). I will post my views in a separate post and I hope all editors of this article and others passing by will help us reach a consensus. Thanks. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 02:52, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Just FYI, the lead sentence that is subject to changing currently reads: "William Henry "Bill" Cosby, Jr. (born July 12, 1937) is an American stand-up comedian, actor, author, and activist." Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 03:15, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

I am strongly against describing Cosby as an alleged rapist in the first sentence or mentioning the accusations there. The accusations are well mentioned in the last paragraph of the lede, where they should be chronologically. I understand that this is a very emotional subject and the accusations are pretty horrible, but we have to keep our objective tone and not suffer from WP:Recentism. We have to maintain a historical perspective. For this reason, I say we wait on labeling Cosby a rapist as if it described him like the word comedian does. Also, this is the biography of a living person and we should be VERY careful with what we say about people. Other sensationalist news organizations can say what they want but Wikipedia tries to be a standard for reliability. We should wait until the smoke clears, until the legal system determines what to call Cosby. Until then, we should continue stating the facts in those other sections that describe the situation, but, if anything, lets err on the side of caution on this. Finally, I want to bring the example of the Michael Jackson article. Notice that there is a thorough description of the sexual assault incidents but there is no mention of him a child molester along with singer and dancer. Now that the scandal has passed, and we are looking at it from a historical perspective, it would seem harsh to include those accusations in the lead sentence of that article. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 03:15, 28 October 2015 (UTC)