Talk:Donald Trump 2016 presidential campaign

Endorsements

I’m not sure why endorsements from sports figures, pro-wrestling figures, and past reality show contestants are notable. But, assuming that they are, what exactly is a political endorsement? In an obvious example of edit-warring, Cuckservative has repeatedly added a number of questionable endorsements and refused to discuss his edits. They were reverted four times by two editors and it hasn’t been reverted a fifth time because we don’t edit-war.

In his addition of Jared Kushner, the cite provided doesn’t even mention Jared. In his addition of Phil Ruffin, there is no statement at al from Ruffin in the cite. Not a word. In the addition of Mike Ditka, Ditka says he likes Trump. He may like lots of people. This isn’t close to an endorsement for President of the U.S. I can’t imagine why you would want Hulk Hogan’s endorsement, but in adding him, Hogan says he’d like to be his running mate. That’s not an endorsement. And so on. Objective3000 (talk) 14:12, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I've noticed the same thing, and not just in this article. I think the minimum barrier to inclusion should be that any endorsement is actually called an endorsement in at least one reliable source, that the source should be independent of the endorser, and that the endorser should be notable enough to already have a Wikipedia article. This will eliminate Twitter shout outs, Facebook posts, forum posts, rumors and innuendo. - MrX 14:20, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you even read through the sources I provided. For starters, the list of endorsements for Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton have way more questionable "endorsements" from state officials, Washington insiders, and political consultants with either no Wikipedia article or no explicit statement of endorsement, yet nobody seems to have a problem with them. Second, you can hardly call Charlie Sheen's endorsement for Trump an "endorsement," yet nobody seems to have a problem with his inclusion on the list. Last but not least, I would be happy to walk you guys through every single one of the sources I provided and show you the exact sentence that demonstrate their support for Trump/endorsement. Regards--Cuckservative (talk) 06:22, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I removed Charlie Sheen's entry. If there are problems with other articles, they need to be fixed also. But, we are on the Trump article and many of the "endorsements" aren't. Objective3000 (talk) 11:49, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

@Cuckservative: Do you agree that we should not use (only) WP:PRIMARY sources and that the sources should actually say endorse, or some close synonym?- MrX 11:57, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Note on talk page posts

Any posts even vaguely using Nazi terminology or references will be reverted and the posters likely blocked. This talk page is not your local political chat forum. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:49, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Given that it's likely we've not heard the last of this, the article was semi-protected after reports to ANI and RFPP because of disruption, edit warring, and socking by one editor. Other editors rightly pointed out the issues and given the editor's insistence on adding a Hitler connection to the lead with completely disruptive referencing and then subsequently using Nazi terminology with reference to Trump, it's clear they were not here to improve the encyclopedia. Their first block was for 31 hours but after they started socking, I blocked one of their IPs for two weeks. Editors can keep this in mind when talk page protection expires in two days. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:34, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Proposition: First of all excuse me for editing this section, but I did not want to create a new one. My question is should there be a section within the article mentioning the ways Trump is promoting his campaign? Ralphw (talk) 17:23, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Make America Great Again hat photo

I think this has become such a cultural fashion icon that it could be spun off into its own article -- anyone have a Creative Commons licensed photograph of it?--The lorax (talk) 21:39, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Early. Could be forgotten in a couple of months. Objective3000 (talk) 21:46, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

• Personally I feel like any inclusion of the hat is a tad too promotional for my tastes. The main issue is that the hat is not really a "fashion" icon in my mind. It isn't like the hat is Gucci or Prada it is just a hat. We didn't include a picture of Rick Perry's iconic glasses even though there is plenty of "news" articles on those. --Stabila711 (talk) 21:52, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Comments on Obama/Islam

Now, should we add Trump's unresponsive-ness to allegations that Barack Obama was not American and a Muslim? Reference Aryamanarora^{talk, contribs} 22:27, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

I think it merits mention. His "birther" campaign was very much part of building a constituency for a possible 2012 run, and he does not want to disappoint that constituency by conceding ground. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 14:59, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree. It's a pretty big deal.- MrX 15:23, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it merits a short mention. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:33, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, a short mention. It's more substantive than other things that we currently mention, such as the Lindsey Graham phone saga.LM2000 (talk) 19:54, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, of course. It would be an inexplicable oversight not to. Neutrality^talk 23:38, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, It should be mentioned — Preceding unsigned comment added by VK007I (talk • contribs) 06:10, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Agree that it is a tremendous omission that Trump's support for various fringe theories (Obama is a secret Muslim born in Nigeria, GWB was the 9/11 mastermind, vaccines cause Autism, most Mexican-American women are raped while crossing the border, etc) have been given suspiciously little mention in this article. This is especially egregious in light of Trump's remarks that Muslims should be barred from the country. If Trump 1) thinks Obama is a secret Muslim And 2) thinks Muslims should not be allowed in the United States, it follows 3) trump thinks Obama should be deported. this should be mentioned in the very first lines of the article, so that it is clear Trump is a neo-Nazi protest candidate, rather than a legitimate politician. 50.29.117.25 (talk) 23:55, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Even if DT would be neo-nazi why neo-cons can to have more say in US and blood us on someone else wars? Apparently DT is critical about neo-nazi ruling for now Ukraine and sponsored by our taxpayer money by BO st.dep. 99.90.196.227 (talk) 07:15, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

you have unusual views about the world, friend. you also seem to having quite a bit of difficulty in stringing together coherent thoughts. If in any way possible, I would highly recommend seeing a psychiatrist as soon as you can. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Convictions Are More Dangerous Enemies Of Truth Than Lies (talk • contribs) 07:28, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

2nd debate (CNN) and recent Trump polling

It seems that Wikipedia editing enthusiasm has waned in recent weeks, along with Trump's recent poll numbers. As far as surveys go, didn't early September mark "peak Trump"? I know he's said he leads among evangelicals, but he scored just 5% in the Value Voters Summit survey (of 2,700 participants), putting him in fifth place among that demographic. Shouldn't that be mentioned? Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 23:21, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't like any WP:recentism. Like all early front runners, he will likely fade and eventually.... But, I've always thought an encyclopedia should wait for events to develop in their own manner. We are a year from the election. Sometimes, editors are in too much of a hurry. Objective3000 (talk) 00:41, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

You're right. Mel Brooks is also counseling patience. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 01:06, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually, his popularity has risen. Let's see what the next debate delivers. -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 08:56, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Sources for valid editing can be found on Trump's Campaign page

The Trump Campaign has archive of main media articles, and on October 8th, had a nice picture of his wife Melania and his daughter Ivanka Trump. Here are some captions: "Previous News: A key argument against taking Donald Trump’s candidacy seriously is evaporating" and "Next News: Donald Trump plots his second act". Archived clips go back to June 30 2015: "Real estate mogul and possible Republican presidential candiate Donald Trump says the U.S. is making poor choices under Democratic leadership" in Reuters; and go currently up to September 30th in USA Today: "POLL: DONALD TRUMP STILL ON TOP AS OUTSIDERS FIORINA, CARSON RISE USA Today Billionaire businessman Donald Trump has strengthened his lead at the top of the USA TODAY/Suffolk University Poll while two other outsider candidates, Ben Carson and Carly Fiorina, have gained ground over rivals with electoral experience."

URL: http://www.donaldjtrump.com/news/trumps-campaign-manager-opens-up-about-strategy

This is the ticket to find non-tabloid sourcing. -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 09:08, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

You're saying that Trump's website is the "ticket" to finding sourcing on Trump's campaign? Really? – Muboshgu (talk) 22:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

This looks to be pretty solid proof that the Trump campaign has indeed Astro-turfed this page, as some have suggested---in the person of this Charles Edwin Shipp. one cannot find a single comment of Shipp's in which open cheering for Trunp is not observed, and who engages in endless debates over whether photos of Trump are suitably flattering, and supplies breathless reports of Trump's latest polling figures, and who also has in full seriousness suggested that the Trump campaign website is a more reliable source than what Shipp calls "tabloid" sources. This looks like more or less 100 percent proof that Shipp is affiliated with the Trump campaign, and should go edit somewhere else due to his Conflict of Interest. What else can be the explanation for suggesting seriously that independent newspapers be replaced with sources from the Trump campaign, and his ludicrous complaints of "bias" for calling a spade a spade, and directly reporting that Trump said no more Muslims should be allowed to enter the country? Convictions Are More Dangerous Enemies Of Truth Than Lies (talk) 00:08, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

uh so much typing? Put the link to video and transcript. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.90.196.227 (talk) 07:07, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Education levels

Should this article indicate the fact that Donald Trump has greater appeal among less educated Americans? news polls from the past 4 months -- Moxy (talk) 00:41, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Why not? Take a shot at it. Also, explain why that would be. You can check his campaign site to see he is popular with 'blue collar' workers. -- AstroU (talk) 05:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Most likely the explanation is that low levels of education correlate extremely well with xenophobia and racism. The correlation is almost perfect.Convictions Are More Dangerous Enemies Of Truth Than Lies (talk) 01:01, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

False. Any growing group will contain growing number of less educated people. The 'more educated' are by definition minority. tip: think about semantic context of word 'more' . More than what? 99.90.196.227 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:04, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

It has been shown many times by sociologists that, within any given society, higher levels of education correlate with lower levels of "racism", or lower levels of intolerance of members of out-groups. In contrast, people with relatively lower levels of education, show relatively higher levels of intolerance of outgroup members, or a higher degree of racism. These are both relative claims, and simply imply that the more educated persons become, the less intolerant they typically, *on average*, become as well. Your points are largely non-sequiturs. Simply saying "false" and then incoherently stringing some word spaghetti together does not make an argument. This is a platitude, friend.Convictions Are More Dangerous Enemies Of Truth Than Lies (talk) 07:21, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

You argue on unopposed argument. You admit that you not understand me but you dispute my thesis. Basically you dispute whit yourself, repeating what you already posted. The fact is in any society highest level of education belongs to minority - the less educated outgroup is majority. In any randomly sampled group the number of less educated persons will grow proportionally with the group count.

Similar kind of argumentation is observed when your media regret that 'during indiscriminate bombing most victims are women elderly and children' - because in any population this group consist a majority. The same fallacy is to insult, as you do, untested in pools implication, to always most numerous group of people, who do not having high education. (of course 'high' do not mean 'US high school' which is worldwide considered as elementary education)99.90.196.227 (talk) 09:30, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 November 2015

When Trump was responding to a question on the Muslim Database he said he would implement it. What he really meant is that he would implement tougher illegal immigration laws. Can this misinformation be deleted? Ylemel (talk) 18:01, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

• Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template.

  It was a direct quote and is well referenced whenever it is mentioned in the article so I doubt it will be removed and replaced with what you thought he really meant. Putting in a direct quote from the person is not misinformation. --Stabila711 (talk) 18:26, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

• The media particularly CNN has edited the clip to make it sound like he did say he would. In reality he was asked about the database and although he didn't directly deny it until later, he instead discussed the border in which the reporter kept asking him questions about the database, the responses by Trump while discussing the wall make it seem like he did want a database of Muslims especially the way it is edited by some media outlets. He has however supported a database, that is for the Syrian refugees Obama plans to bring in to the US which I added to the page under Syria.ShadowDragon343 (talk) 19:21, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
• The original question put to Trump as a 'gotcha-moment' slipped into the discussion of the Wall (to be) on the southern border, as noted here. But, as is his way, Trump doubles-down on what he would do (noting also that we have tracking systems already in place, aka: all of everyone's phone messaging, etc.) I read the current text and it sounds good to me, but not because he said 'yes' to a deceptive reporter. -- AstroU (talk) 12:01, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

It is not a "gotcha" moment. (This phrase should be banned. Politicians should be expected to be answerable on questions of their proposed policies if elections are to be meaningful, and there is nothing illegitimate about asking pointed questions in order to find out more about a candidate's views.) You may not wish to admit that Trump wants to put the "whites only" sign back up on the US, but he has stated this explicitly many times, because he knows his who his "base" is (relatively uneducated and underemployed persons who harbor ethnic prejudice and blame other races for their own shortcomings in finding a job or finishing school.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.29.117.25 (talk) 22:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

BIG news to those expecting Trump to drop out

For everyone who expects him to not being in the race, this should be BIG news.

Headline-1: I. Will. Never. Leave. This. Race.

• https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/i-will-never-leave-this-race/2015/12/08/af1b1d46-9ad2-11e5-8917-653b65c809eb_story.html

QUOTE: "I. Will. Never. Leave. This. Race." -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 16:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC) -- PS: FYI for future editing.

Speculation aside, not sure this is notable for inclusion per WP:NOTNEWS. There is already text in the article about a third-party candidacy. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:11, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Not every quote that comes out of his mouth is worth adding verbatim. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:19, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Understood. I put the quote in to disquade WP editors from thinking he will be stepping aside on his own, and he continues to lead all others by double their popularity. Of course we can wait and see (Wikipedia is history, not news) but down-stream, we can remember this Trump declaration. -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 05:29, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Double? Trump is at 36% and Cruz and Carson at 12% which would be triple! -- AstroU (talk) 15:57, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Why the advertisement-like tone of this article?

Reading parts of this article, you could swear the copy was written by Trump campaign itself.

This article is highly non-neutral, and in fact reads like an advertisement, or an ode to the author's hero. 50.29.117.25 (talk) 5:36 pm, Today (UTC−5)

Is that why the word "fascist" appears 19 times? Martinevans123 (talk) 5:51 pm, Today (UTC−5)

Counting the number of times fascist appears does not make it false that much of the copy here is written in inappropriately breathless and glowing terms for an encylopedia article. An article should not fawn over its subject in such a hideously grotesque fashion: his "populist politics and opposition to the establishment republican candidates have earned him support among the working class, despite controversy."

If the Trump campaign did not write that line,(which they have inserted in multiple articles) I will eat my hat---as it is nearly word-for-word the same language on their campaign website.50.29.117.25 (talk) 23:32, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

George Will views

George Will a dyed in the wool, honest to God bow-tie wearing conservative, has characterized Trump's policy proposals as "ethnic cleansing". I say we listen to this man and add it to the lead

Here's the George will link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-bobblehead-campaign/2015/09/25/741262e0-614d-11e5-9757-e49273f05f65_story.html

And also--Why is there no mention also that "make America great again" is generally believed to be code for "Make America white again?" This is like a John Wilkes Booth article that doesn't mention that he shot Lincoln. It's missing the point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.29.117.25 (talk)

I have refactored your header. Please read WP:TALKNEW: "Keep headings neutral: A heading should indicate what the topic is, but not communicate a specific view about it." --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:04, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. I vote that the Will characterization gets mention, considering he is arguably the most prominent political conservative pundit in the country. It is a notable view and has been made often, and deserves mention. How many votes do we need?50.29.117.25 (talk) 23:33, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Content on Wikipedia is not determined by voting but by consensus, determined by who has the strongest arguments rooted in Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. I am acting as an admin here so, aside from removing obvious WP:BLP violations, won't be involved in content decisions. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:32, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

As your title states, it is a person's "views". I don't see why this should be in the lead. Perhaps you can find a way to include it in the article. But, I doubt it. There are certainly better sources. Objective3000 (talk) 01:05, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Ok how about this: "Even a political analyst as staunchly right-wing and conservative as George Will has labeled Trump's policy proposals as "ethnic cleansing", and many other commentators have pointed out that Trump is just to the right of Adolf Hitler at a similar stage in their political careers." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Convictions Are More Dangerous Enemies Of Truth Than Lies (talk • contribs) 01:14, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

That is unnecessary editorializing. If Will's comment is significant enough to be included, it can be added without any commentary. Let the readers decide how to characterize his comments. - Cwobeel (talk) 01:25, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

ok. In the spirit of collaboration, and trying to present this more neutrally, and in acknowledgement that there are two sides to every issue, I came up with the following, which I hope you'll agree is definitely fairer to Trump, and takes a more neutral and balanced tone, presenting both sides of the controversy:

"Politically, Trump's positions can best be characterized as occupying the space just to the right of Adolf Hitler, but just to the left of Genghis Khan." What do you think?Convictions Are More Dangerous Enemies Of Truth Than Lies (talk) 01:57, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I think you don't know much about Genghis Khan. Objective3000 (talk) 02:37, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Do you doubt that for Mongols Genghis Khan was good. Why you reject American rights to have a great leader? Of course i reject (2 up) your stupid here opinions.99.90.196.227 (talk)

Yes, I do, in fact, doubt that Genghis Khan was good for the Mongols. Nevertheless, I wish to offer my sincerest apologies if I have offended any Genghis Khan supporters or enthusiasts by comparing him to Donald Trump.Convictions Are More Dangerous Enemies Of Truth Than Lies (talk) 07:11, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

LOL. So we have a doubt in historical perhaps never (able) settle debate. But why you using doubtful thesis as you simplistic opinion ? 99.90.196.227 (talk) 07:53, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

as usual, i have no idea what these words are supposed to mean. in fact, I don't think you successfully managed to string together even a single coherent, rational thought in any of your comments this evening.. Farewell, friend.Convictions Are More Dangerous Enemies Of Truth Than Lies (talk) 08:22, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Why you flashing over the nonsense redlink >> Convictions Are More Dangerous Enemies Of Truth Than Lies ? This thesis is false. Freshman student should be able to show here contradiction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.90.196.227 (talk) 06:46, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

ID cards for Muslims

I see that someone removed the claim about ID cards for Muslims as unsourced. Here is a source from the Washington Post, with a direct quotation from Trump affirming the plan. Can someone Please restore the content and add the source? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/11/19/donald-trump-wont-rule-out-warrantless-searches-id-cards-for-american-muslims/ Convictions Are More Dangerous Enemies Of Truth Than Lies (talk) 05:33, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

There is no direct quote from Trump regarding ID cards in that article, it just notes that he did not reject the options". That's quite a bit different from the wording I removed from the lede earlier.LM2000 (talk) 05:38, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. Though there is a direct quote that he would not rule out the ID cards, I believe. How about re-adding and "he has said he would not rule out requiring Muslims from carrying religious identification cards" or something of that nature, then? If we're going to include that he has been accused of fascism, it is appropriate to not obscure the reasons *why* he has been widely understood as fascist. Convictions Are More Dangerous Enemies Of Truth Than Lies (talk) 05:52, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Also in that article , he says he would not rule out closing Mosques: "Well, I would hate to do it, but it's something that you're going to have to strongly consider because some of the ideas and some of the hatred — the absolute hatred — is coming from these areas," he said.

I think this is also notable and significant enough for the article. No? Convictions Are More Dangerous Enemies Of Truth Than Lies (talk) 05:55, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

No. Even if true why Muslim have to use fake ID and other not ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.90.196.227 (talk) 06:56, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

You misunderstand, friend. In America, there is no official religion and no one is required to carry a form of identification specifying their religion. The last time such a policy was implemented upon a particular religious group in the Western world happened in 1930's Germany, when Jews were required to wear the Star of David on their person, identifying them as Jews. Such identification later allowed the Nazis to quickly exterminate the vast majority of Europe's Jewry. It is for this reason that all decent people reject Trump's grotesque proposal. Convictions Are More Dangerous Enemies Of Truth Than Lies (talk) 07:01, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

one may call worshiping of devil a religion and look for constitutional protection for cannibalistic bloody rituals. Will be it ok? Why you thinking that marking Muslims or Jews automatically will led to they extermination/extinction? Decent people do not try to hide own religion but are usually proud of it. I agree religion could be private , but how private is public gathering in explicitly identifiable buildings? I think you are not religious - right? Your derision on people tradition and religion which are based on conviction make me to bet on this. 99.90.196.227 (talk) 07:38, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I am Jewish, and I find your intolerant and bigoted remarks inappropriate.if I had to bet, I would say you are not actually an American, so great is your ignorance of the meaning of freedom of religion. Adieu.Convictions Are More Dangerous Enemies Of Truth Than Lies (talk) 07:42, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

(And the quotation is from Nietzsche.)Convictions Are More Dangerous Enemies Of Truth Than Lies (talk) 07:44, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Imo Nietzsche works is piece of crap. 99.90.196.227 (talk) 07:55, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Considering how weak your facility with language, you'll excuse me if I am neither interested or impressed by your opinion on "Nietzsche works". Cheers, friend.. Convictions Are More Dangerous Enemies Of Truth Than Lies (talk) 08:01, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Any freedom has a limit when someone freedom trespass other person freedom. There are always limitation of freedom. One may found criminal code intolerant and bigoted. Im not sorry if my remark about ritualistic cannibalism show intolerance or bigotry to it. What arrogance crossed you head to think you can spread fallacy, stand here, and cheer other out. Have you nothing more to say - do not respond.99.90.196.227 (talk) 08:30, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

How to organize article sections with overlapping content?

User:Cwobeel made this improvement to move content on Muslim immigration into the appropriate section on immigration. But the edit also moved the Muslim database subsection into the immigration section, where it does not belong. The “Muslim datase” subsection is about all Muslims, not just immigrants. Breaking that subsection out would fragment content on Muslims. Do any editors have suggestions on how to keep content on Muslims together, and at the same time keeping content on immigration together? MBUSHIstory (talk) 10:36, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Split political positions

The two sections about political positions is growing too large. A WP:SPLIT is called for. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:17, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Al-Waleed bin Talal

Saudi Arabian Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal (reputedly the world's richest man) has said Trump is a "disgrace" to the Republican Party and "to all America." In a tweet, he said Trump should withdraw from the presidential race, as he "will never win." Trump has apparently responded by calling him "Dopey": CNBC, RT. Widely reported on BBC radio news. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:20, 12 December 2015 (UTC) ... also Guardian, Reuters, Times of India, ITV, Saudi Gazette, IBT, etc etc

He didn't call him "Dopey" as in one of the seven dwarfs. Honestly. ^This type of stuff is dopey. Are we supposed to print every little news byte on this person? Doc talk 12:25, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

How would we be able to tell? And why is this dopey? But I didn't add it. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:14, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Al-Waleed is rather a huge figure in the finance world. Objective3000 (talk) 19:23, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Is there any more notable Muslim, worldwide, who has responded to Trump's rhetoric? And including "this kind of stuff" in the article is seen as "dopey"? Thanks Doc. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:18, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

The Emirati businessman Khalaf al-Habtoor, whose 2013 Foundation has an entry on Wikipedia, denounced Trump after writing positively of him last summer. "He has insulted 1.8 billion Muslims worldwide, and he has business in the Arab world ... He will lose because respectable Muslims will refuse to work with him.”

The same New York Times article includes the closest thing we'll probably ever find to an endorsement from one of Trump's Middle Eastern supporters:

“Look, Donald is my friend, and we have been friends for a long time,” said Akbar al-Baker, the chief executive of Qatar Airways. “I think it is an exercise only to gain political mileage. Nothing more. This is the opportune time to excite more extremist people so that they could give him their votes.”

Nothing quite like the Qataris to play both sides of the coin. But that's another discussion. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 22:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I see there is an article for the Khalaf Ahmad Al Habtoor Foundation. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:53, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

So is there any consensus on whether the comments by Al-Waleed bin Talal should be included or not? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:37, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

False flag theory?

Seriously, is there any reason why this article should air a conspiracy theory alleging that Trump is a "false flag" candidate in the race only to help Hillary Clinton win the Presidency? If we are to write about conspiracy theories, it should be how Trump himself has capitalized on them and has drawn (in the words of the Washington Post) "from the murky swamp of right-wing, libertarian and flat-out paranoid sources that have proliferated and thrived as the Internet and social media have grown", including using his own Twitter followers to verify his 9/11 Muslim celebration assertions, to corroborate his false claims about black-on-white crime, etc. But the idea that the Clintons are Trump's puppeteers seems unencyclopedic and does not deserve inclusion. Ugh, this is going to be a long election season... Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 01:16, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

As I said in my summary, it's not about how realistic this claim is (I doubt it myself) but about who is saying it. This isn't confined to InfoWars or other conspiracy boards, it's reported by the BBC, Britain's non-partisan broadcaster. And it's not just people in their basements saying this, but Jeb Bush, who is a candidate '''tAD''' (talk) 17:54, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

If it looks (as it is now) that too much space is devoted to this theory, maybe it should be a separate article, with appropriate weight from sources debunking it '''tAD''' (talk) 18:40, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

A reasonable suggestion, which I would support. If it remains here, it needs to be shorter and have better debunking (which should not be difficult given that all the sources are skeptical as well). Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 18:44, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

It should not be in the article by WP:UNDUE, unless an RS says it had some impact on Trump's campaign. (It is more relevant to an article on the Bush campaign, since it says more about that than it does about Trump's campaign.) MBUSHIstory (talk) 19:18, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

This theory did get some press, but let's not fall victim to the 24 hour news cycle. Jeb! went with the idea briefly, and if he pushes it, then maybe it's worth some mention, but otherwise, it reeks of sour grapes. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:12, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

• Hit the table and the shears will call you,

i saw who ring even while false flaged — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.210.227.196 (talk) 04:10, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Allegations of fascism

An article in Vox which features leading scholars on fascism like Roger Griffin and Robert Paxton has a clear consensus that Trump is not a fascist.

"To be blunt: Donald Trump is not a fascist. "Fascism" has been an all-purpose insult for many years now, but it has a real definition, and according to scholars of historical fascism, Trump doesn't qualify."

"Every expert I spoke to identified support for the revolutionary overthrow — ideally through violence — of the state's entire system of government as a necessary characteristic of fascism"

I think we can conclude that this is a mainstream view among scholars that can be stated in Wikipedia's name; and speculations that some, unnamed scholars on fascism may disagree, does not require Wikipedia to let the mainstream view to be presented as "some scholars".

Furthermore; while Trump has indeed been accused by several politicans and journalist of fascism; many have also stopped short of the fascism allegations,but still critized him sharply; and the intro should be rewritten to reflect this more diverse criticsm; so the criticsm isn't portrayed simply as being fascist or not.

The better way to write the lead is also to first lay out Trump's position first, and only afterwards include the criticsm; not to start the sentence with the criticsm. Iselilja (talk) 20:49, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

• Seconded.LM2000 (talk) 21:24, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

• Agree. The source for the fascism content does not support the content, which is a violation of WP:BLP. The fascism term was used about proposals to register Muslims, and to put them under more surveillance, not in response to the Muslim immigration ban proposal (which was criticized not as fascism, but as un-conservative, violating US founding principals, and violating the no-establishment of religion clause of the First Amendment, because it targeted a religion, and was criticized as implicitly saying the US is at war with all of Islam, which is the ISIS narrative, especially after Mr. Trump cited presidential proclamations based on the Alien Enemies Act, which applies only to alien immigrants from a country or government at war with the US. Here is proposed content for the article body - "Critics, including conservatives, accused Trump of using fascist rhetoric for his proposals calling for more strongly monitor "(ref)“it was after Trump started calling for stronger surveillance of Muslim-Americans in the aftermath of the Paris terrorist attacks that a handful of conservatives ventured to call Trump's rhetoric something much more dangerous: fascism.” Why some conservatives say Trump talk is fascist, M J Lee, CNN, 11-25-2015, [1](/ref) I am WP:Bolding this at the end of the relevant section. Whether or not this deserves mention in the lead is a matter of WP:WEIGHT, but the lead, as it stands, violates BLP. MBUSHIstory (talk) 00:29, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Disagree - I removed this from the BLP article because I thought it was a BLP vio. But, VOX is just giving an opinion of some historians, as if all historians agree. And, the claim this is about immigration only is simply false. He stated that ALL Muslims would be forbidden from entering the country. All would include businessmen, tourists, artists, diplomats, etc. Look, he appears to have a long history of saying outrageous things in front of large crowds, and then later claiming he didn't say it and that the media made it up, or he was misunderstood. Then, he continues to double-down on the original statements in front of new crowds. At some point, he must be taken to task for what he actually says in front of large crowds and quietly makes vague comments about later. Yes, we must be careful in non-BLP articles about people that are still living. But, we cannot sanitize articles about ANY active political candidate simply because they are alive (as I hope most candidates are). Objective3000 (talk) 01:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

MOS issues - The lead first paragraph is not a stand-alone summary; The lead as a whole does not summarize the article body

MOS:LEAD issues - The lead first paragraph is not a stand-alone summary; The lead as a whole does not summarize the article body. The lead needs a major rewrite. MBUSHIstory (talk) 00:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

ISIS

the ISIS do not have important info . 'Obama did not bomb ISIS oil before becouse of environ . Trump did not revile since anybody must understand that oil not burn by bombing tankers will be burn sfter the tankers deliver it somewhere. So the Obama exscuse is good only for not thinking or too bussy people. You here on you need a lot of explanation. Donald Trump mesage have deeper meaning for intellectual audience and you eiting by jumping many articles may not geting enought atention and brainpower to get it. 70.209.201.101 (talk) 08:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC) anyway it is alredy in this aeticle that the CO2 tax is for TDT a scam. Here is one of wideo. Obama folks explain why they did not bomb ISIS oil. It is Public BS. I'm not adding D.T. video because you viciously deleting it here.

Health

Why we can not adress what DT was talking about this issue in Iowa. Can you(if they ban you change ip) do something to editors who are Santorus suporters and fighting neutral info about DT campaign. 70.209.201.101 (talk) 08:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Mr. Trump has not yet released his medical records, according to CNN, which reported on 12-3-2015 that "Trump said Thursday he will release a doctor's report of his health within two weeks and it will show 'perfection'.". Content on Mr. Trump's health might be in this article if the health subject receives coverage in reliable secondary sources as having an impact on his presidential campaign, per WP:WEIGHT. MBUSHIstory (talk) 14:48, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I thought Wikipedia was not a soap box?

How is any of this a valid entry in an encyclopedia? This article is more like a thinly guised campaign platform that surely must be a violation of WP:SOAP.

Much of it is just copypasta from news reports. A real encyclopedic entry would be written later with criticism from political scientists on what went right or wrong. This piece is nothing but a bloated list of "he said, they said" which makes it narrative. It's also a classic example of WP:Recentism in that it is happening so it must be covered. BY 2017 this turgid, bloated mound of copypasta opinion will be just gathering dust on Wikipedia servers.

And it's not just Trump, the other candidates that are vying for a run at the White House in 2016 all have "presidential campaign, 2016" articles. It is quite clear to me that they serve no purpose other than to be truncated news updates to the political process of electing a candidate to run for US president.

Therefore the people editing these pages are most likely to be those with a vested interest in such an event. But once the process has concluded this article and others like it will serve no purpose. I can only conclude that Wikipedia is being used for the purposes of political campaigning in the USA which as I pointed out at the start is a violation of WP:SOAP. Either way tl;dr. 86.182.40.5 (talk) 09:25, 15 December 2015 (UTC)