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→Comments from GRuban: I'm sorry that you only have 48 hours, as I'm not sure it'll be enough
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*{{u|GRuban}}, I saw you struck your support with the hope that it was temporary. I have tried to address the issue in which you concurred with SV. If I am not there yet, give me more direction. I have another 48 hours where I can spend time on the article.--[[User:TonyTheTiger|TonyTheTiger]] <small>([[User talk:TonyTheTiger|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/TonyTheTiger|C]] / [[WP:FOUR]] / [[WP:CHICAGO]] / [[WP:WAWARD]])</small> 02:00, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
*{{u|GRuban}}, I saw you struck your support with the hope that it was temporary. I have tried to address the issue in which you concurred with SV. If I am not there yet, give me more direction. I have another 48 hours where I can spend time on the article.--[[User:TonyTheTiger|TonyTheTiger]] <small>([[User talk:TonyTheTiger|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/TonyTheTiger|C]] / [[WP:FOUR]] / [[WP:CHICAGO]] / [[WP:WAWARD]])</small> 02:00, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
** Not there yet, I'm afraid, though I appreciate the effort. I'm sorry that you only have 48 hours, as I'm not sure it'll be enough, but let's try.
*** The sentence "A YouTube video about the making of the "Love Somebody" video shows that it was shot on January 16, 2013." - can be compressed into "shot on Jan 16..." and stuck onto the previous sentence, it's just a source.
*** The "Ratajkowski said she felt the attention given to the nudity..." paragraph is ER reacting to public reaction. Move it after the next 2 paragraphs which are about the public reaction.
*** Throughout you're mixing present tense (assert, feel, point) with past (was controversial, said). Pick one; I think past is better.
*** ""Blurred Lines" was controversial because some feel it promotes a man's freedom to vanquish women at will, while others assert it promotes female power and freedom in sexual congress. " - er ... I'm pretty sure the people who thought it was sexist greatly outnumber, and feel stronger about it, than those who asserted it promoted female power; and many of the apologists were directly involved with the video. The CBC article by Andrea Warner was quite explicit: "This isn’t satire, post-post irony or freedom of speech. This is war." We should be clear this is not balanced.
*** I don't see anything here questioning ER's feminism; I gave 2 links below that do so, and I think more can be found from searching with the other 2 search engine links I gave.
*** "she was featured by the Los Angeles-based jewelry designer as the face of her Spring 2016 campaign wearing body chains, rings, bracelets, pendants, and chokers" ... er, yes, but that's sort of avoiding the main issue, which is that she was featured wearing basically '''ONLY''' body chains, rings, bracelets, pendants, and chokers. That's why the campaign drew the attention it did from the sources, as I wrote, the sources make a big deal of her almost complete nudity. Models wearing rings is no big deal. Models wearing solely rings is. --[[User:GRuban|GRuban]] ([[User talk:GRuban|talk]]) 03:00, 30 March 2016 (UTC)


====Comments from Cirt====
====Comments from Cirt====

Revision as of 03:00, 30 March 2016

Emily Ratajkowski

Emily Ratajkowski (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:46, 12 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about model, actress and activist Emily Ratajkowski. I would like to take one last shot at getting the article promoted to FA in time to be a WP:TFA for her 25th birthday (on June 7), which is less than 3 months away. I have requested that the current PR be closed. I feel that I have attempted to resolve all issues that were raised in the prior FAC.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:46, 12 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from GRuban

  • Disclaimer - I uploaded the free images for the article, no other contributions that I can recall. But I am, of course, tempted to promote for the photos alone. :-). Otherwise:
Extended content

--GRuban (talk) 20:56, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Most of these are good now, with a few minor exceptions I trust we'll work out.

I can support. --GRuban (talk) 17:57, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • GRuban, can I request your feedback on other potential images from this 2015 video using the following points of the video that have potential images 1:02-1:03; 1:34-1:36; and 2:02-2:04? P.S. I am on my backup computer right now and am not able to do high quality screen caps until my primary comes back. If you find any of those points worth capturing you could add them to the article.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:09, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Unfortunately, that video isn't Creative Commons licensed. YouTube hides the license under the SHOW MORE link in the middle of the page. That video is under "Standard YouTube License", which means we can't reuse it. The two that I found that are under "Creative Commons Attribution license (reuse allowed)" are https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dBRIBCBI40 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1B4pFMnLZY. (There are a few other YouTube videos of her marked Creative Commons Attribution, for example the Hollywood Daily ones, but I frankly doubt their ownership of the images they display. The LOVE magazine ones do seem actually owned by the magazine.) Strangely enough, it's not the easiest thing to find freely licensed pictures of someone who normally receives lots of money for having pictures taken of them. --GRuban (talk) 01:04, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • GRuban, since you are the discussant in this review that has paid the most attention to the content I was hoping you might have an opinion on whether I should mention her latest print campaign that is getting major press. Do we want to include ad campaigns that get a lot of press? See Esquire, Austrailian Elle, In Style, MSN, The Sun, New.com.au, and [1]. I am contemplating the propriety of adding this campaign to her article. What do you think?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:48, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'd say it's worth a sentence, due to, as you write, the extensive coverage it's gotten, but not more than that - I haven't read all the sources, but the first few seem to all be saying the same things: "she's doing an ad campaign, look, mostly naked photos!", which is not really that different from the rest of her oeuvre. So it would be one more representative example of her work; since we don't have countless numbers of such examples yet, it is worth spending one sentence on it. The term "propriety", though, doesn't really apply to this article, which is something I think both Emily Ratajkowski herself and SarahSV would agree on. --GRuban (talk) 14:54, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • On a separate note, I've read SarahSVs comments, and agree with a number of them, especially her point 3. A noticeable fraction of the article is Ratajkowski defending herself against claims that Blurred Lines is inherently sexist... but we don't present those claims, just her defense. That's not balanced. Sarah's points 2 and 5 can both be satisfied, at least partly, by removing the parts that depend on the gossip papers (for example: "Emily Ratajkowski displays her cleavage ... " ahem). I think she's gotten enough coverage from non-gossip sources that we can live without that. I'm afraid there is no way to fulfill "avoid presenting women as "objects of heterosexual male appreciation."", since that's a noticeable fraction of Ratajkowski's career, but Sarah's other points have points, so to speak. --GRuban (talk) 16:18, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • I welcome advice and assistance in contextualizing the sexist claims regarding the video. I am on a short clock for until Monday night or Tuesday. I will attempt to respond as soon as I can but would welcome assistance in presenting the controversy in proper balance.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:33, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • GRuban, I saw you struck your support with the hope that it was temporary. I have tried to address the issue in which you concurred with SV. If I am not there yet, give me more direction. I have another 48 hours where I can spend time on the article.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:00, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not there yet, I'm afraid, though I appreciate the effort. I'm sorry that you only have 48 hours, as I'm not sure it'll be enough, but let's try.
      • The sentence "A YouTube video about the making of the "Love Somebody" video shows that it was shot on January 16, 2013." - can be compressed into "shot on Jan 16..." and stuck onto the previous sentence, it's just a source.
      • The "Ratajkowski said she felt the attention given to the nudity..." paragraph is ER reacting to public reaction. Move it after the next 2 paragraphs which are about the public reaction.
      • Throughout you're mixing present tense (assert, feel, point) with past (was controversial, said). Pick one; I think past is better.
      • ""Blurred Lines" was controversial because some feel it promotes a man's freedom to vanquish women at will, while others assert it promotes female power and freedom in sexual congress. " - er ... I'm pretty sure the people who thought it was sexist greatly outnumber, and feel stronger about it, than those who asserted it promoted female power; and many of the apologists were directly involved with the video. The CBC article by Andrea Warner was quite explicit: "This isn’t satire, post-post irony or freedom of speech. This is war." We should be clear this is not balanced.
      • I don't see anything here questioning ER's feminism; I gave 2 links below that do so, and I think more can be found from searching with the other 2 search engine links I gave.
      • "she was featured by the Los Angeles-based jewelry designer as the face of her Spring 2016 campaign wearing body chains, rings, bracelets, pendants, and chokers" ... er, yes, but that's sort of avoiding the main issue, which is that she was featured wearing basically ONLY body chains, rings, bracelets, pendants, and chokers. That's why the campaign drew the attention it did from the sources, as I wrote, the sources make a big deal of her almost complete nudity. Models wearing rings is no big deal. Models wearing solely rings is. --GRuban (talk) 03:00, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Cirt

Image review by Masem

  • Images of the 3, there's only one non-free, and that is the cover that is documented to have launched her career. While we generally frown on NFC on living persons, exceptions are made if such images are extensive subjects of discussion, which is the case here, so that non-free should be fine -- though I have added an "upright" to the portrait-oriented image per MOS:IMAGES as well as the fact that that image was the largest on the page, which (inadvertently) draws the eye to the tasteful nude rather than her main "real life" image. --MASEM (t) 02:18, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SlimVirgin

Tony has suggested that parts of my oppose aren't actionable. Because my earlier post has been broken up and may not be clear enough, I'm clarifying my oppose for the delegates.

  1. FACR 1(a): "well-written: its prose is ... of a professional standard":
    The writing is problematic. One example:
    "Ratajkowski has done public service announcements promoting safe sex and birth control for Planned Parenthood.[147] ... She has gotten a wide range of responses to her involvement ... Planned Parenthood has presented Ratajkowski as a spokesperson for its birth control support.[150] Ratajkowski, is outspoken on her interest in going beyond speaking out in favor of birth control and using her celebrity to fight against the social implications of speaking out for empowerment of women and sexuality."[151]
  2. FACR 1(c): "Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources":
    It relies in part on tabloid sources and low-quality gossip sites, which violates WP:BLPSOURCES.
  3. FACR 1(d): "neutral: it presents views fairly and without bias:
    The article seems promotional rather than a disinterested account of her life and work. For example, the first sentence notes that she made her name after appearing in the "Blurred Lines" video "which became the number one song of the year 2013 in several countries." She was the most prominent model in that video. The lead doesn't mention how controversial the lyrics and video were (especially the semi-nude version). Both were widely regarded as misogynist; the lyrics promoted violence against women. [2][3][4][5] The Guardian called the song "the most controversial of the decade"; the video "generated its own separate yet overlapping controversy." [6]

    To mention the number ones without mentioning the controversy is a violation of WP:LEAD and an example of the article's promotional flavour. If there were just a few examples of this, I would try to fix them, but the same tone runs throughout the whole article.

  4. FACR 3: Non-free images must satisfy WP:NFCC:
    The use of the nude image strikes me as gratuitous. I don't see how it "significantly increase[s] readers' understanding of the article topic." I've lost track of how the "subject of commentary" criterion is applied, but this is a professional image with monetary value, not to mention an example of the kind of image we ought not to add to biographies of women. It's just an essay, but please see Writing about women: avoid presenting women as "objects of heterosexual male appreciation."
  5. FACR 4: "It stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail":
    There's a lot of unnecessary detail and quoting. It would benefit from that material and the lower quality sources being removed, then a rewrite to introduce a more disinterested tone. It would be shorter but better.

SarahSV (talk) 07:11, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tony, my first post was split up by your replies, and you're welcome to continue doing that below. But I'd like the above not to have replies added inside it, so I'm moving those here. SarahSV (talk) 00:04, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[Re: point 3, neutrality]:

I am not averse to contextualizing this issue. I will not have much time between now and Tuesday to do so. I will definitely look at this on Tuesday, but am welcome to the suggestions of other editors to augment this issue. I am about to get back out on the road for Uber. It is a holiday weekend and people need to get out on the road and home from work, etc. I'm off to hit the roads for most of the weekend.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:34, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
When you say "this issue," I assume you mean the mention of the song/video in the first sentence. But that was just one example of the neutrality problems. Another example: in discussing her involvement with Planned Parenthood, you write: "She has gotten a wide range of responses to her involvement, including comments on her bravery." The source is an interview with her, where she is the one who says: "I had a lot of people who were like, ‘Wow that’s so brave of you.'". But this is repeated in Wikipedia's voice (and "gotten" needs to be changed). I think the problem is that, as you said somewhere, you're a big fan of hers, and this shows in the writing all the way through the article. SarahSV (talk) 00:12, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[Re: point 4, non-free image]:

I don't think your contention here is WP:NPOV. We have rehashed this image in all sorts of forums. Have a look at the last FAC. This image is the work of art that propelled her career. Period. There would be no discussion of her being on the main page without this image. Read the text.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:27, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(I notice that several people who normally rail against non-free images are strangely absent or compliant when it comes to naked women.)
WP:FACR says of images: "Images included follow the image use policy. Non-free images or media must satisfy the criteria for inclusion of non-free content ..."
The latter policy (WP:NFCC) says: "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding."
I don't see how using that image in this article fulfills that criterion, and I can't see any agreement, in the previous FACs, that it did. There were objections to the image in both FACs. The objection was left unresolved in the first FAC. In the second FAC, the "critical commentary" issue was addressed, but that's just part of the guideline WP:NON-FREE.
The NFCC requirement – "would significantly increase readers' understanding" – has not been discussed that I can see. SarahSV (talk) 00:42, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The prior FAC had two different image reviewers (Masem and Elcobbola) come to an agreement that the image satisfies all NFCC requirements as two FAC vets (SandyGeorgia and Nikkimaria) looked on. I am not qualified to debate this. However, unless they are wavering, what is the point of reraising this issue?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:38, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I can't see where the second FAC reached an agreement about that image. I can see where they discussed whether there had been commentary. But even if they had reached an agreement, this is a new FAC and a new objection. That the image has been questioned or opposed in all three FACs should give you pause.
FACR requires FACs to meet Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria (NFCC). NFCC says: "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." That's the standard that has not been met, in my view, except in the empty sense that a naked image of any BLP subject might increase readers' understanding of them. SarahSV (talk) 22:03, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The current version of this article has passed an image review above. Neither of us is an image reviewer. You might want to poke the image reviewer above or request a second opinion.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:52, 29 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Writing and citation style: The article needs a copy edit, but it's harder than usual to read in edit mode because there are so many references within sentences. This is sometimes unavoidable when handling sensitive or contentious material, but in this article I can't see a need for it.
Citation style? WP:IC is now the prevailing form of citation. Thus, I have placed citations as close to the fact presented as possible using the usual forms of adjacency that I have used in my dozens of WP:FAs and hundreds of WP:GAs. When a particular contentious fact is part of a sentence this requires a citation within a sentence. There is absolutely no stylistic guide that opposes such a citation style to my knowledge and I have never seen a preference for averting such citations in any of the hundreds thousands of GA, PRs and FA reviews I have been involved in. It is generally considered a strength to have citations adjacent to facts.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:18, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am open to any copyeditting assistance that may be availed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:20, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tony, I haven't mentioned the MoS, except that the article violates LEAD by omitting the controversy, and LEAD is part of the MoS. My concern is that the writing needs to be improved throughout. The article has a kind of breathless PR tone to it. (I'm not suggesting that you're formally doing PR for her; I'm talking only about the writing.) But before the writing can be fixed, the low-quality sources should be removed. SarahSV (talk) 22:57, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quality of sources: Low-quality sources should be removed, including the Daily Mail. See WP:BLPSOURCES: "Material should not be added to an article when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism." And FACR 1(c): "Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources ..."
  • WP:RS is a difficult issue in regards to subjects of modest notability. If we were dealing with a politician at a G7 conference, we could source content from the most esteemed types of sources. However, models appearing in a Fashion Week runway may garner minimal coverage from even moderately notable sources. Take a sentence like "For Fall/Winter 2016 fashions Ratajkowski again walked New York Fashion week for Marc Jacobs on February 18 and also made her Paris Fashion Week debut for Miu Miu on March 9, 2016." We could source that she appeared in the Paris Fashion Week with several reliable sources such as Elle or In Style. However, if we want to make it clear it was her Paris Fashion Week debut, I am having trouble finding a better source than Daily Mail. I would gladly upgrade sources as you suggest, but in terms of the claimed fact that she "made her Paris Fashion Week debut" I don't see options out there. I might concede that Daily Mail is a somewhat WP:QUESTIONABLE source, but is this fact a "contentious claim" requiring a better source? You need to examine fact/source pairs. For certain less contentious facts, lesser sources may be acceptable.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:09, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is the fact that it was her first time at this show really important? I admit, I am not a fashion expert, but our Paris Fashion Week article says it's one of four, so there are at least three similar ones, and plenty of other shows, perhaps of slightly lesser cachet, but still deserving of our articles, six in Category:Fashion events in France alone. As a world-famous model, won't she eventually get to many, if not most, of them? Surely we won't individually note her first time at each? OK, I'll buy perhaps her first time at any runway fashion show might be worth a mention ... but at least according to the Irish Independent - not a gossip paper - that was at the New York Fashion Week, not Paris.[7] So is the fact the Paris appearance was her first there really such a big deal? --GRuban (talk) 21:07, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • One last thing before I head out for a day of driving. In regard to this, runway modelling and print modelling each has four majors (like golf or tennis) in the same four cities (London, Milan, Paris and New York). These are the Fashion weeks and the Vogue. The case could be made that a FA level article of a world class model presents details about the accomplishments in terms of these majors, IMO. However, we need the opinion of WP:FASHION regs in this regard. I don't know if anyone currently active in this discussion qualifies as knowledgeable about that profession.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:32, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unnecessary detail: It seems to include everything that is known about her. Do we need to know how old her parents were when she was born and that they were not married? Same in the infobox: there's no point in adding that she has brown eyes and hair when we can see that from the photograph.
It is odd to discuss unnecessary detail as a complaint and then to point to standard inclusions in a biography. Note for a model, eye and hair color are important enough information for this persons occupation that that parameters exist for these items of data. For a model/actress, we can not go by the color in a picture because they often have to color their hair for roles and sometimes wear coloring contacts. For the average person, we may not care about their political affiliation, but we would not describe filling in that parameter as unusual for a politician. Similarly, for a model, physical attributes are common biographical summary elements. I don't know if this type of issue has led to Deepika Padukone being a FA without an infobox. If so, I am open to understanding this issue further. In terms of depicting what type of family one is born into, it is not remotely out of line to describe whether a person was an orphan, bastard, adopted, born to unknown parents or what have you. She is of unusual stock being from unmarried American parents living abroad. As a discussant, you are generally suppose to point out actionable issues.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:36, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, you have shown in this edit that you are aware of which parameters have been deprecated and which have not. Obviously, if the remaining parameters are not deprecated, they must serve the readers in a way that is desirable.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:56, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutrality: She made her name from the Blurred Lines video, but no mention is made of how controversial that was. It's also very contentious to say in WP's voice that she's a feminist. Feminism is a broad church but not this broad; the Blurred Lines video could not be further removed from feminism. If she has said she regards herself as a feminist, we can consider quoting her, but with caution: it almost takes us into fringe territory, in the sense that we'd have trouble finding an opposing view simply because it's unlikely that anyone would have responded.
Please note I have added a quote in which she presents herself as a feminist.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:29, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ratajkowski's brand of feminism involves promoting female sexual empowerment and sexuality. I.e., a woman should be free to share her body in art, social activity, publicity, or private activity as she desires without shame. She has experienced the extreme opposite type of bodyshaming that feminists usually fight. Usually, it is the woman who strays from conventional attractiveness (maybe by being fat—possibly due to pregnancy, or life stress) that endures pressure. She has, by virtue of being almost the symbol of conventional attractiveness, been subject to pressure not to excite or arouse. Freely sharing her body in a music video is part and parcel to her brand of feminism. I will attempt to find some quotations to make this brand of feminism more clear to the reader. Feminist seek equal treatment for women. If guys can rap about women trying to get on their magicsticks and talk about their conquests, why can't a woman even express enjoyment of sexual expression. She feels women should be able to talk about sexual activity as freely as men and express their sexuality with no more restriction than men. I would enjoy guidance in taking the article in the direction of clarifying this to the reader.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:50, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
SlimVirgin, also note that there is extensive discourse regarding the contorversy surrounding "Blurred Lines". Additionally, there are quite extensive responses to Ratajkowski's brand of feminism. I did not find opposing views even last month when she was prominently in the public view for her brand of feminism. Can you even explain what an opposing view would be. It seems to me that the opposing view is in support of misogeny. Given the widespread response to her expression of her views and my inability to find opposing views, I feel like I am aware I may be missing something. Please help me to balance the article with opponents to her recent feminist manifesto.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:09, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The opposing view would be that she personally serves, encourages, abets, enables, and profits from the sexual exploitation, objectification, and denigration of women. Not saying whether I agree or disagree with that myself, but Slim's list of sources pretty much say that, though they focus more on Blurred Lines than on Ratajkowski, so ideally we'd find sources that focused on her. --GRuban (talk) 01:10, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Is the topic at issue whether "Blurred Lines" promotes the sexual exploitation, objectification, and denigration of women or Ratajkowki's life embodies support of the sexual exploitation, objectification, and denigration of women?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:44, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Both. Specifically, we should present and summarize what reliable sources say, in proportion to what they say. Sarah gave four that focused on Blurred Lines, which is relevant considering how much of ER's article is directly or indirectly related to BL - it looks like maybe a third of the article. Here are a few more sources on ER specifically [8][9] but I can't guarantee they're the best, you really need to do a few searches on it yourself [10][11]. From my (very quick) searching, I see noticeably more sources supporting her as a sex-positive feminist than those attacking her as not a real feminist, but the other side does exist, so needs to at least be mentioned. Also, again, the criticism of BL is substantially more, and needs to be given. --GRuban (talk) 17:02, 29 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
O.K., I have the next 3 hours blocked out to try to address this issue a bit. I'm digging in now.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Tony has added that the subject claims to be a feminist. If a woman says she's a feminist, I normally accept it (even if I disagree with her view of it), but there has to be a limit. The subject says of this video that it is "not sexist." Factor in the lyrics: "I'm gon' take a / Good girl / I know you want it ... / I'll give you something big enough to tear your ass in two / ... Nothin' like your last guy, he too square for you / He don't smack that ass and pull your hair like that."
Jezebel's response to Robin Thicke's claim that the song is feminist: "Susan B. Anthony. Germaine Greer. bell hooks. Robin Thicke. We thank these brave warriors for all their hard work."
We don't allow BLP subjects to say whatever they want about themselves. If there are sources discussing a contentious and self-aggrandizing claim, include the sources and explain why the claim might be problematic. For example, if an arguably racist person claimed be an anti-racism campaigner, we wouldn't include that claim without comment. If there are no independent sources discussing a contentious claim, it's better to leave it out. SarahSV (talk) 02:34, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said before, I am not going to haphazardly jump in and add this text. I have not looked at how it is handled in the article for the song. I hope that there is content there that I can just sort of summarize here.---TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:44, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • General content and tone: The article pores over every detail of this very young woman's life and body, including her early sexualization (which made me very sad to read in the sources), with no awareness of the broader issues. Wanting to feature it on her birthday seems inappropriate for the same reason. In addition to that, we talk a lot about fixing the way women are represented on Wikipedia, but featuring this article would be a sprint in the wrong direction.
Are you saying that the article is deficient in contextualizing this biography amid broader issues?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:09, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
SarahSV (talk) 03:33, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question for Tony: I added an invisible question (which you removed) to "She has been an advocate for women's health issues, especially as a spokesperson for Planned Parenthood," asking what other women's health issues she has been involved in. Can you add something to the article or rewrite that sentence? SarahSV (talk) 04:18, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't know what a PSA is, and I wasn't asking that you add something to the lead. The lead says she is involved in women's health issues other than for Planned Parenthood. So my question is: what other health issues? Safe sex and birth control are Planned Parenthood issues. SarahSV (talk) 22:08, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • By the way a PSA is a Public Service Announcement.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:10, 29 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep in mind that we are not going to find much out about any involvement she may have had with PPA before she was a public person in 2013. We have a 2015 PSA and a statement that she has always been involved with PPA because of its role as a women's health organization. I can't find much about her charitable works prior to 2015. I could change "She has been an advocate for women's health issues, especially as a spokesperson for Planned Parenthood." to "She has been an advocate for women's health issues, especially as a spokesperson for Planned Parenthood." if you are more comfortable with that.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:43, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from General Ization

  • While I appreciate the efforts of TonyTheTiger in developing this article and presenting it for FA consideration, I too must oppose. Without repeating all of the criticisms above (with which I agree), the article as currently written is in serious need of trimming, in several sections is overtly promotional in tone, and is excessively linked to the point of creating a sea of blue. The article clearly reflects a great deal of love on the part of its major contributors (my contributions being mostly reverting vandalism) for their subject – perhaps a little too much love for an encyclopaedic article. General Ization Talk 03:52, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
General Ization, Feel free to present examples of extensive promotion. I can not improve the article without feedback. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:09, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from White Arabian Filly

Comments from Nightscream

Comment Thanks for contacting me, but I don't really know what the criteria are for FA. I do copyedit lots of articles, and did a few edits yesterday to the article, but don't have time for anything else right now. Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 16:35, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nightscream, the FA criteria are presented at WP:WIAFA.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:51, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And what's the difference between those criteria and those for Good articles (of which I've written a few)? They read as mostly the same. In any event, I don't have time or interest to comprehensively read the article right now. Thanks again. Nightscream (talk) 14:32, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If a good article is "good", then a featured article is "really, really good". :-) More seriously, one of the key differences is that you need one reviewer to mark something as a good article, and you need many reviewers to mark something as a featured article. --GRuban (talk) 14:43, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Figureskatingfan

Support. This article fits the criteria for FAs. Yes, it has a lot of detail, but I think it should, given the subject. Models are subject to this kind of detail, and much of what's included is connected to her profession and career. The sources aren't the most reliable, but again, these are the kinds of publications that write about models like Ratajkowski, so I think it's appropriate to include them. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:50, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your support. Usually, you put me through a lot of editorial hoops before supporting an FA and I know it is encouraged for reviewers to make suggested improvements before supporting. Feel free to make suggestions later. I hope a support without editorial guidance carries weight because I was under the impression that such reviews may be discounted.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:31, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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