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Tyler Durden (talk | contribs)
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huh? if everything was a personal choice in Indian religions, why has even cattle-slaughter been a taboo? when those religions gave freedom to their followers, why is there a debate on imposing restriction, even on non-followers? what's the point anyway?
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::*Tyler Durden: The third sentence does not include the word "unequivocal" or "equivocal", or anything equivalent. Alsdorf acknowledges that "Indian vegetarianism is unequivocally based on ahimsa" citing ancient ''[[smriti]]s and [[itihasa]]'' of Hinduism. He adds, "to the majority of modern Indians" there is "no [[ahimsa]] without renunciation of meat consumption". Further, this is not just a precept in Hinduism. Please get over and unlearn this is just their Hindu thing. "No meat production, trading or consumption", which includes "no cattle meat" is an important precept in ancient and medieval texts of Jainism and Buddhism too. There are zillions of RS on this. Yes, religious precepts =/= actual practice. All three of their ancient religions give freedom to their followers, everything has been left as a choice in Indian religions. Ahimsa or vegetarianism is not a compulsion, it is a matter of personal persuasion, a heritage and a way of life. This difference between the religious and the secular life is unlike some non-Indian religions, where religious rules have been mandatory. Lets stop using or summarizing Indian or other newspapers as sources for history / anthropology / precepts of religions / etc. For why, see Nyttend's comment on "Be careful with newspapers" above. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 13:45, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
::*Tyler Durden: The third sentence does not include the word "unequivocal" or "equivocal", or anything equivalent. Alsdorf acknowledges that "Indian vegetarianism is unequivocally based on ahimsa" citing ancient ''[[smriti]]s and [[itihasa]]'' of Hinduism. He adds, "to the majority of modern Indians" there is "no [[ahimsa]] without renunciation of meat consumption". Further, this is not just a precept in Hinduism. Please get over and unlearn this is just their Hindu thing. "No meat production, trading or consumption", which includes "no cattle meat" is an important precept in ancient and medieval texts of Jainism and Buddhism too. There are zillions of RS on this. Yes, religious precepts =/= actual practice. All three of their ancient religions give freedom to their followers, everything has been left as a choice in Indian religions. Ahimsa or vegetarianism is not a compulsion, it is a matter of personal persuasion, a heritage and a way of life. This difference between the religious and the secular life is unlike some non-Indian religions, where religious rules have been mandatory. Lets stop using or summarizing Indian or other newspapers as sources for history / anthropology / precepts of religions / etc. For why, see Nyttend's comment on "Be careful with newspapers" above. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 13:45, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

:::: {{tq| Alsdorf acknowledges that "Indian vegetarianism is unequivocally based on ahimsa" citing ancient smritis and itihasa of Hinduism. He adds, "to the majority of modern Indians" there is "no ahimsa without renunciation of meat consumption". Further, this is not just a precept in Hinduism. Please get over and unlearn this is just their Hindu thing. "No meat production, trading or consumption", which includes "no cattle meat" is an important precept in ancient and medieval texts of Jainism and Buddhism too. There are zillions of RS on this. Yes, religious precepts =/= actual practice. All three of their ancient religions give freedom to their followers, everything has been left as a choice in Indian religions. Ahimsa or vegetarianism is not a compulsion, it is a matter of personal persuasion, a heritage and a way of life. This difference between the religious and the secular life is unlike some non-Indian religions, where religious rules have been mandatory.}} - Okay. So? Is this article on "Vegetarianism/Ahimsa in Indian religions"? — '''[[User:Tyler Durden|<span style="color: red">Tyler Durden</span>]] [[User talk:Tyler Durden|<span style="color: maroon">(talk)</span>]]''' 16:30, 14 June 2017 (UTC)


== The lead sentence ==
== The lead sentence ==

Revision as of 16:31, 14 June 2017

The whole "Legislation by State or Union Territory" section has no citation at all. Can someone please add it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.177.253.137 (talk) 09:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Done. BigJolly9 (talk) 20:48, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and according to fair use may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Diannaa (talk) 21:39, 27 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Origin of cattle slaughter

I have re-added content concerning the origin of cattle slaughter. The statement said that slaughter became "prominent" in India after the arrival of Islam and not that it began at the time, which is why it was removed by another editor. I was looking through older versions of this article, and I can see that a lot of content was removed for copyright violation (as the section above notes). In this version before the content was removed, under the Ancient India section, there are a lot of sources that indicate that cattle slaughter and beef consumption occurred even before the arrival of Islam. In my opinion, it also better explains the change in attitude towards cattle slaughter over time. I'm not an expert on the matter, but if some editor could add the content that was removed (after removing copyright issues) then it would better explain the history of the subject. 123.237.137.5 (talk) 15:27, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Text is not small, it will take some time to rephrase. Bladesmulti (talk) 05:54, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nepal within scope?

Anyone has any thoughts whether cattle slaughter in Nepal falls within the scope of this article? Uanfala (talk) 00:25, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposed merge with Attacks on suspected cow smugglers in India

Topic may be notable with the sourcing but I believe it is more appropriate as section on Cattle slaughter in India rather than on its own. -- Dane talk 03:37, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Cow Slaughter in india

Hi Please check the map of india is not showing the right terrotory of j&k and china — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kunalreck (talk • contribs) 19:24, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced edits; misinterpretation of sources; WP:OR

Rashkeqamar, what on earth are you doing through WP:EDITWARring? Majority of what you wrote in your recent edits is WP:OR. Please note that the sources have to explicitly tell what you write, even if you completely believe that its accurate.

  • Cow is treated as a holy animal mostly among Hindus in North India, than in South India and Northeast India, where it is legal to slaughter and consume cow meat.
  • South India Hindus in states like Kerala, Goa ,Telangana and Karnataka eat cow meat(beef), where it is treated as a secular dish. Hindus in Northeast and states like Sikkim and West Bengal eat beef on a regular basis. [What the heck is "secular dish"? Where did that even come from?]

These things are present in none of the sources you have provided.[1][2][3][4][5] — Tyler Durden (talk) 15:36, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Why does Kerala beef get North India's goat".
  2. ^ "In fact: How beef became Malayalis' object of desire".
  3. ^ "Why Kerala has no beef with beef".
  4. ^ "BJP govts in Northeast have no intention of imposing beef ban: Himanta Biswa Sarma".
  5. ^ "'It is impossible here': Centre's cattle slaughter rules have BJP leaders in the North East worried".

Clear picture of Beef and cow slaughter perception in India must be added

Clear picture of Beef and cow slaughter perception in India must be added.
Cow is treated as a holy animal mostly among Hindus in North India, than in South India[1][2] and Northeast India,[3] where it is legal to slaughter and consume cow meat.[4][5]
Scientific studies show that a gene mutation called 13910T which originated in Europe some 7,500 years ago could be the reason for north Indians and western Indians to consume far more milk and far less meat than east Indians or south Indians.[6]

Non-uniformity: North India and Rest of India difference

South India Hindus in states like Kerala, Tamilnadu,[1] Goa ,Telangana and Karnataka eat cow meat(beef), where it is treated as a secular dish.[4][5] Cow meat (beef) accounts for 40% of all meat consumed in Kerala.[2] Hindus in Northeast and states like Sikkim and West Bengal eat beef on a regular basis.[3][7]--Rashkeqamar (talk) 19:17, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Rashkeqamar: Please read WP:OR, particularly WP:SYNTH. The sources we cite for WP:V should directly support the content that we write. Keeping this in mind, please address the concerns which I have pointed out in the above section. Regards, Tyler Durden (talk) 19:48, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
More specifically, which of your sources talks about "holy animal", and which one says there is a difference between north and south India's in terms of holiness? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:25, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ a b "South India's mini rebellion over Modi's new cattle law kindles an old secessionist spark".
  2. ^ a b "Why Kerala has no beef with beef".
  3. ^ a b "BJP govts in Northeast have no intention of imposing beef ban: Himanta Biswa Sarma".
  4. ^ a b "Why does Kerala beef get North India's goat".
  5. ^ a b "In fact: How beef became Malayalis' object of desire".
  6. ^ "Beef warriors, please note: The deep reason for India's differing food habits might lie in genetics".
  7. ^ "'It is impossible here': Centre's cattle slaughter rules have BJP leaders in the North East worried".

Middle of first millennium?

@Ms Sarah Welch: please see[1]. It is not clear to me that cow slaughter was accepted by Hindus in earlier times. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:01, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Krishna, Nanditha (2014), Sacred Animals of India, Penguin Books Limited, pp. 108–, ISBN 978-81-8475-182-6
  • Kautilya3: Indeed, we should add Nanditha Krishna source to clarify. I will try. But, please fine tune where appropriate, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:16, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

God's creature?

@Tyler Durden: Any RS for "the cow's traditional status as a respected creature of God in Hinduism" in the lead? I don't see the support in the main article. Strange phrase it is, with capital G and several qualifiers, but perhaps I am missing something. Once you provide a source, I will review the context and the support. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:36, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is clearly WP:OR and complete nonsense. All creatures are creatures of God in Hinduism as well as other Indic religions. In contrast, man is a special creature of God in the Abrahamic religions and other creatures are apparently meant for the service of man.
Nandita Krishna quotes from the 10th Mandala of Rigveda (10.87.16) where apparently horse is singled out as a taboo rather than the cow. (The horse taboo still persists in all Indo-European societies.) Also, by the time of the 10th mandala, Aryans were not purely pastoral; they were largely agrarian. That is why meat-eating could be shunned (which would be practically impossible for pastoral people).
If eating horse is taboo for pastoral people, eating cow is taboo for agrarian people following exactly the same logic. No special invocation of God is necessary. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:45, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Sarah & Kautilya: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I was just reinstating the lead-sentence to the older version of the article, while removing the ahimsa thing. I'm watching this page for a few months, and the lead was staying intact since then without any changes/disputes, and so I thought there was no issue there. Hence I simply copy pasted the older lead-sentence, without bothering much about it. My mistake, I should have noticed it, at least while reinstating. Actually, the problematic "God's creature" was inserted in this edit in October 2015 by some IP (apparently, along with some other weird stuff also, which was removed in subsequent stages) and thereafter, strangely & funnily, it stayed in the article till date. Its undoubtedly nonsense. Sorry again, Tyler Durden (talk) 11:51, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Feedback: POVs, lead, Ahimsa...

[Copied from User talk:Vice regent/CowVigilantism]

Hey there,

Someone recently told me to seek help from you regarding an article I'm developing in my userspace: User:Vice regent/CowVigilantism. Could you please leave some feedback? I'm particularly interested in knowing if you think it is neutral.VR talk 01:59, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Add Ms Sarah Welch. My knowledge on this topic is nihil. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:39, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshua Jonathan: I am not current with topical and political issues there, so please take what follows in that context. @Vice regent: A quick read suggests the article has NPOV issues, strange claims, reliance of news sources accused for their one-sided POVs (Aljazeera is cited; Aljazeera's one-sided POV pushing is one of the reasons why Saudis/UAE/Egypt/Bahrain/etc broke up with Qatar, per some British sources). The article also relies on eccentric sources. The background section is weak, there are reasons why cow killing is frowned upon in the texts of Hindus/Jains/Buddhists. Not just cow, all life forms. It is strange to rely on a student's association president that "beef is cheap protein in India" (it isn't, beef costs more than $2 per lb bulk production price in a country where the poor live on less than $2 per day) or "25% of their country's population, not including their ~14% Muslims, are beef eaters"... all such exceptional claims need high quality RS, not gossipy student rep quotes and what is currently cited in the draft. If you look at the RS, such as FAO and USDA/FAS, cow+buffalo beef consumption per capita is very low in India. If just their Muslims eat as much meat beef per capita as Pakistanis or Turks do, that would account for 90%+ of their domestic beef consumption. I see Tyler Durden is discussing the draft with you on the draft's talk page. One suggestion: review the useful comments by admin Nyttend below, about the need for caution with news sources in wikipedia (cutting-pasting from the wall of text there).
Be careful with newspapers/etc as sources
Ian.thomson saw my comments elsewhere and asked me to chime in here. Journalists virtually never have scholarly training in history/anthropology/ethnography/etc. — they're generalists as far as this kind of thing goes, not knowing more than what's needed for background purposes, and as such we mustn't consider them reliable sources for such fields. Exceptions can exist, of course, and we can't discount a journalist merely because of his job (e.g. he could be an avocational anthropologist so dedicated to the field that he's a member of a learned society), but even then we should only trust his writings if they've gotten reviewed by other experts; the most scholarly journalist will have his newspaper writeups reviewed by nobody except the newspaper's editors, whom again we can trust to know a lot about news reporting but we can't trust to know much of anything about "olds" reporting. We can take newspaper reports as authoritative if we're writing a middle school report for our teachers, but encyclopedia writing demands better sources: whether they're written by professional academics, journalists with a lot of experience in scholarly work, or anyone else, they need to have gone through a scholarly review process. Of course, all this applies if there's no significant dispute; a faithful adherence to WP:NPOV will demand that we use the best sources from (or about) each position, and we can trust a journalist to report on the rise of a new popular movement that advocates a different perspective on such-and-such an idea, but journalists being primary sources in such situations, we shouldn't use them to interpret something about the different perspective. – Nyttend
Newspapers, tabloids and certain magazines are useful sources in some cases, but not RS for many cases. Always attribute primary sources when you quote them (you shouldn't interpret primary sources). Sorry and thanks SpacemanSpiff for letting us (ab)use your talk page for this non-admin discussion!, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:11, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well Sarah, the other editor, VR, invited me on my talk page. So I got involved, didn't put any serious effort though. I just wandered there for a couple of days and left, as VR stopped developing it. I thought to go back after he starts making changes again, if he aims to publish it.
Since you tagged me, I just want to humbly & politely note that there is a lot of inaccurate and faulty OR in what you said above. I don't think this is the appropriate place to discuss all of that point by point, so I won't elaborate. Also, regardless of your argument about "beef is cheap protein in India", it is not even there in that user-space article. I don't see anything written anywhere as such!
Above all, in any case, much of your discussion belongs to the article: Cattle slaughter in India. Not this one. This user space article: Cow vigilantism in India, is particularly intended to deal with the violence in the name of Cow-protection, carried out by the extremist-Hindutva mobs, who take law into their own hands. This is not an article that is meant to focus on the larger Cow-slaughter issue in India. Best, Tyler Durden (talk) 16:58, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Tyler Durden: The "cheap protein" comment was more to question the reliability of the source that uses a student's association president as the dietary / sociology expert. Newspapers can be useful primary source of events/tragedies/new developments. Not rest, see Nyttend's caution above. For the background section consider this, this, this and this as potential sources instead. On another note, I thought beef production/consumption/exports from India was mostly buffalo beef, but I am not current on all this and situation there, please check and clarify if appropriate. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:03, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Another source. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:07, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Sarah, again, I'm afraid you're not noticing that this draft-article is on Cow/cattle vigilantism in India. Not Cow/cattle slaughter in India.
I thought beef production/consumption/exports from India was mostly buffalo beef. - Yeah, you're largely right here.
Firstly, on a side note, as for this line above - there are reasons why cow killing is frowned upon in the texts of Hindus/Jains/Buddhists. Not just cow, all life forms., and your lead sentence-change here, where you opened the lead with because of the ethical principle of Ahimsa (non-violence) and the belief in the unity of all life: please try to understand that this page is a hugely contentious page where everyone and their brother can find some author(s), perfectly reliable, who is/are seemingly supporting their favorite family sentiment/prejudice or political agendas. (for eg., we have a renowned Indian historian D. N. Jha for one side, who wrote a book titled The Myth of the Holy Cow, saying, this cow-issue started just with the "Hindu-nationalists making the animal a symbol of the unity (& identity) of a wide-ranging people, and challenging the Muslim practice of its slaughter", also asserting that the Hindus consumed beef in ancient India, and cow is not any sacred during then — all of which attracted & entertained many audience.[1] [2] [3]) I'm not saying you are doing that, not at all. But you are opening the page to that, which will allow the POV warriors (again, you're certainly not one of them) from both sides to push their propaganda. We need to look at the broader picture, in detail. The fact of the matter is, Hindu-vegetarianism, in reality, is an empty argument in India, in the socio-political context. [4] - 70% of India is non-vegetarian, and majority of its Hindus (at least 60% of them) are apparently non-vegetarian, irrespective of what their religious texts say or do not say. Especially in the entire Southern and Eastern belt, you'll likely feel very lucky to find 2 vegetarians for every 10 Hindus you pick. (scroll down and see the image here) Frankly, there are probably more people who believe in ghosts & black magic, than those who follow vegetarianism in this whole region. Ahimsa (i.e., 'prevention of animal-violence' in this context) or vegetarianism is so weak an argument that even Hindu nationalists do not carry it as their political agenda for cow-protection.
The standard and the most popular argument, in its basic and brief form, is that Cow is like a mother to us, as it provides milk and so many things ("more than the earthly mother", in Gandhi's own words). Indian Hindus clearly & unarguably have a special love for cattle, particularly the cow, not only as per their religion, but also as per their way of life (as they put it). Why they have it, how it evolved since the past, and why it became a part of their socio-political conflict with Muslims, Christians & Dalits; especially the Muslims, in India — is all a pretty big & complex story. But all in all, apart from religion, there is a significant social and political dimension here, in the 'cattle/cow-slaughter issue' in India, which needs to be remembered.
Now cow/cattle-slaughter aside, and please think and suggest — what, in your opinion, should the Background section majorly cover, in an article that is on 'cow-protection violence'? Best, Tyler Durden (talk) 23:55, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Emperor Babur responds to D. N. Jha's rant as follows:

[Babur] wrote: "Son, this nation Hindustan has different religions. Thank Allah for giving us this kingdom, we should remove all the differences from our heart and do justice to each community according to its customs. Avoid cow-slaughter to win over the hearts of the people in the matters of administration. Don't damage the places of worship and temples which fall in the boundaries of our rule. Evolve a method of ruling whereby all the people of the kingdom are happy with the king and the king is happy with the people. Islam can progress by noble deeds and not by terror...."[1]

Enough said. As to why it became a socio-political conflict with Muslims etc. one reliable source says this:

Veneration for the cow increased in medieval times. Although "the stages by which the doctrine of the cow's sanctity spread throughout the Hindu community are not clearly discernible," it "comes conspicuously into view during the period of Muslim invasions, when Hindus were shocked by the constantly recurring examples of cow slaughter."[8] Early Muslim invaders killed cattle in the same iconoclastic spirit with which they smashed idols. This slaughter probably intensified Hindu veneration for the cow. The manner and extent of permitted slaughter became both a gauge of the status of Hindu and Muslim communities and a means of conciliating potential opposition. For example, Akbar prohibited cow slaughter as part of his effort to consolidate Hindu support, and he made violations of his order punishable with death.[9][2]

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:36, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Zakaria, Rafiq (2002), Communal Rage in Secular India, Popular Prakashan, pp. 95–, ISBN 978-81-7991-070-2
  2. ^ McLane, John R. (2015), Indian Nationalism and the Early Congress, Princeton University Press, pp. 277–, ISBN 978-1-4008-7023-3

Tyler Durden: Our goal should be an encyclopedic article, not merely a topical WP:Soap-y essay on current events summarized out of newspapers/blogs, no matter how valid or pressing they be. WP:Recentism is not the way to create a robust article, not that you are suggesting that we do so, but I note that for other page watchers. The context and the scholarly WP:RS on ancient and medieval history is important to any encyclopedic article. Wikipedia is a resource for all sorts of readers, from around the world. Build it over the Longue Durée!, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:53, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Tyler Durden "I just wandered there for a couple of days and left, as VR stopped developing it." Sorry! I got a bit busy. I've also been adding to Cow protection movement.VR talk 04:29, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Ms Sarah Welch: I understand concerns about WP:Soap. Which is exactly why I reached out to several users because I believe the best way to make something NPOV is to bring various different viewpoints. Thanks for the four sources you provided for background! The first two of them are unfortunately in accessible by me currently. The other two (a pdf and a preview of a book on google) I will use. Feel free to add too.VR talk 05:06, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@K: Well, I did not endorse Jha's POV. I even clearly stated that its one-sided in my previous comment itself ("for one side"). And yes, McLane's perspective above is quite appropriate, I agree. Regarding Babar's words, they can be certainly true since cow-slaughter was undoubtedly forbidden in Hindu society by Babar's time. But to take them at face value, I think we should look for corroboration from better & well-published sources (After all, it is Emperor Babar's will & testament to his son, it should've been observed by at least a couple of good scholarly sources). Rafiq Zakaria is clearly not a WP:HISTRS, and not reliable enough for this claim (IMHO). But regarding the cattle or cow-veneration / slaughter-prohibition in ancient India, there is apparently no clarity & scholarly consensus on that. Here is an RS[1] which gives another interesting treatment of POVs on this subject from Marvin Harris, which is also later reproduced in several well-published books:[2][3] (emphasis mine)

But all this ignores history. There is more to be said for cow worship than is immediately apparent. The earliest Vedas, the Hindu sacred texts from the Second Millennium B.C., do not prohibit the slaughter of cattle. Instead, they ordain it as a part of sacrificial rites. The early Hindus did not avoid the flesh of cows and bulls; they ate it at ceremonial feasts presided over by Brahman priests. Cow worship is a relatively recent development in India; it evolved as the Hindu religion developed and changed.

This evolution is recorded in royal edicts and religious texts written during the last 3.000 years of Indian history. The Vedas from the from the first Millennium B.C. contain contradictory passages. Some referring to ritual slaughter and others to a strict taboo on consumption. A. N. Bose in 'Social and Rural Economy of Northern India, 600 B.C. —200 A.D.' concludes that many of the sacred-cow passages were incorporated into the texts by priests of a later period.

By 200 A.D. the status of Indian cattle had undergone a spiritual transformation. The Brahman priesthood exhorted the population to venerate the cow and forbade them to abuse it or to feed on it. Religious feasts involving the ritual slaughter and consumption of livestock were eliminated and meat eating was restricted to the nobility.

By 1000 AD, all Hindus were forbidden to eat beef. Ahimsa, the Hindu belief in the unity of life, was the spiritual justification for this restriction. But it is difficult to ascertain exactly when this change occurred. An important event to that helped shape the modern complex was the Islamic invasion, which took place in the Eighth Century A.D. Hindus may have found it politically expedient (this is another big POV-word) to set themselves from the invaders who were beef-eaters by emphasizing the need to prevent slaughter of their sacred animals. Thereafter, the cow assumed its modern form and to function much as it does today.

Regardless, Kautilya, my concern was about the mention of "ethical principle of Ahimsa (non-violence) and the belief in the unity of all life" POV in the lead-sentence. Not anything else. And for that, I was presenting Jha's POV also. I would like to know your opinion in that regard.

@Sarah: Cattle slaughter has been historically opposed by various Indian religions because of the ethical principle of Ahimsa (non-violence) and the belief in the unity of all life. - I see that you still chose to put this perspective in the lead, this time not in the lead-sentence, but in its third sentence. I won't strongly resist you now since I don't intend to get into a POV war here, but I surely can't support this. Please note the caution of Ludwig Alsdorf in his book: The History of Vegetarianism and Cow-Veneration in India (source credits: yourself):[4] (emphasis mine)

Firstly, it should once more be stated clearly that vegetarianism and a cattle-taboo must be distinguished despite all relatedness: millions of Hindus, [5] it is true, eat fish, chicken and goats, but on no account beef. The ban on cattle-killing prevails also in places where, perhaps in the service of the goddess Käli, or in religious festivals especially in Nepal, streams of goat- and buffalo blood flow, and any tourist to India has experienced that even in English-run hotels they are served chicken or what is called mutton (which in reality is goat) at every meal, but very rarely beef. The cattle-taboo is, therefore, to be treated as distinct from vegetarianism, or in addition to it. Secondly, Indian vegetarianism is unequivocally based on Ahimsa; ...

The cow/cattle-taboo concept is not "unequivocally" based on "Ahimsa and the unity of all life". There is distinctly a special love for cow/cattle here. I would urge you to use your best judgement in this case with WP:COMMONSENSE. Ahimsa or vegetarianism may be one of the reasons/rationales/justifications for the prohibition of cow/cattle-slaughter, I'm not denying that, but it is not clearly a major reason, and considering it so is a pro-Hindu POV. And it is surely not reason enough to be mentioned in the lead. Please cover this discussion in the body, but not in the lead. It is as undue as writing things like, "beef-restriction among Indian Hindus became a common practice perhaps out of their political expedience/opposition/indignation/whatever in order to set themselves from the Islamic invaders who were beef-eaters by emphasizing the need to prevent slaughter of their sacred animals", in the lead. Today anybody might not insert things like these, but someday, may be at least after some years, somebody can possibly come and do so, seeing the present lead, again with the direct & indirect support of multiple perfectly reliable sources. (You can see a newbie POV-pusher in this very talk page above, who even inserted something like: "Beef has been a 'secular dish' in Kerala in recent times", bringing an Indian Express article[5], and I had to war with him.)

Having said all this, I'll leave it to you & Kautilya (and other editors, if any) to decide regarding what to do on this. If you don't find my concerns genuine or neutral or necessary, please ignore them, never mind. Best, Tyler Durden (talk) 12:37, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Marvin Harris (February 1989). India's sacred cow (PDF). Human Nature. p. 201.
  2. ^ Cargan, Leonard; Ballantine, Jeanne H. (2003). Sociological footprints: introductory readings in sociology. Wadsworth/Thomson Learning. p. 72. ISBN 9780534588427.
  3. ^ Henslin, James M. (1981). Down to Earth Sociology: 14th Edition: Introductory Readings, Fourteenth Edition. Simon and Schuster. pp. 462, 463. ISBN 9781439108956.
  4. ^ Alsdorf, Ludwig (2010). The History of Vegetarianism and Cow-Veneration in India. Routledge. p. 3. ISBN 9781135166410.
  • Tyler Durden: The third sentence does not include the word "unequivocal" or "equivocal", or anything equivalent. Alsdorf acknowledges that "Indian vegetarianism is unequivocally based on ahimsa" citing ancient smritis and itihasa of Hinduism. He adds, "to the majority of modern Indians" there is "no ahimsa without renunciation of meat consumption". Further, this is not just a precept in Hinduism. Please get over and unlearn this is just their Hindu thing. "No meat production, trading or consumption", which includes "no cattle meat" is an important precept in ancient and medieval texts of Jainism and Buddhism too. There are zillions of RS on this. Yes, religious precepts =/= actual practice. All three of their ancient religions give freedom to their followers, everything has been left as a choice in Indian religions. Ahimsa or vegetarianism is not a compulsion, it is a matter of personal persuasion, a heritage and a way of life. This difference between the religious and the secular life is unlike some non-Indian religions, where religious rules have been mandatory. Lets stop using or summarizing Indian or other newspapers as sources for history / anthropology / precepts of religions / etc. For why, see Nyttend's comment on "Be careful with newspapers" above. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:45, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Example text - Okay. So? Is this article on "Vegetarianism/Ahimsa in Indian religions"? — Tyler Durden (talk) 16:30, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The lead sentence

Tyler Durden: The lead sentence in your latest version looks better than the absurd and misleading one before, but it still has balance issues. Lets brainstorm alternates a bit. Here is one suggestion,

Cattle slaughter is a controversial topic in India because of the cattle's traditional status as an endeared and respected living being to many in Hinduism and other Indian religions, in contrast to cattle being considered a source of religiously acceptable meat by the faithfuls of non-Indian religions and others.[1][2][3]

Comments welcome, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:56, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Lisa Kemmerer (2011). Animals and World Religions. Oxford University Press. pp. 58–65, 100–101, 110. ISBN 978-0-19-979076-0.
  2. ^ Clive Phillips (2008). The Welfare of Animals: The Silent Majority. Springer. pp. 98–103. ISBN 978-1-4020-9219-0.
  3. ^ [a] Robert J. Muckle; Laura Tubelle de González (2015). Through the Lens of Anthropology: An Introduction to Human Evolution and Culture. University of Toronto Press. pp. 299–300. ISBN 978-1-4426-0863-4.; [b] Eliasi, Jennifer R.; Dwyer, Johanna T. (2002). "Kosher and Halal". Journal of the American Dietetic Association. 102 (7). Elsevier BV: 911–913. doi:10.1016/s0002-8223(02)90203-8.
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