Talk:Alex Jones

"Fake news website"?

What manner of business does Wikipedia have in asserting an opinionated statement in the opening paragraph? You don't see the articles on Hitler saying "he is reported to be a bad guy" with 15 different citations, or Bush saying "is considered one of the worst presidents in history". This is clearly intentional and designed distort the rest of the article to the author of this claim's perspective. Allow the merits of what this man does to stand on its own. --Lunatic, Esquire (talk) 02:19, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Well, as you pointed out yourself, there are 15 reliable sources calling Infowars a fake news site. So find 15 reliable sources saying it's not a fake news site, and we have something to discuss. Oh, and cross your fingers that no other editors find even more RSes claiming it's a fake news site, because I guarantee you that there are dozens more. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:54, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Right, we have had to do this because (as with the above thread about Jones not being far right) someone will fetch up and go "But you only have 2 RS saying this". So we end up with a long list of RS saying it.Slatersteven (talk) 07:30, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

You two clowns are doing a great job making sure that nobody with half-a-brain believes anything on Wikipedia. Keep up the good work!!! 50.4.213.130 (talk) 08:01, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

That is a PA, please strike it.Slatersteven (talk) 08:33, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

I know that this claim is based on there being reliable sources describing info wars as such, but it doesn't strike me as right. If you actually follow the link for "fakes news websites", it describes them as "Internet websites that deliberately publish fake news—hoaxes, propaganda, and disinformation purporting to be real news". Perhaps I'm taking "deliberately" too narrowly, but doesn't that imply an awareness that Alex Jones doesn't have? I don't think he's trying to mislead anyone. Infowars publishes news that is false, but I think Alex Jones believes it.

Then again, I'm pretty sure Wikipedia places reliable sources above internal consistency. WilliamLehnsherr (talk) 09:49, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Shame then about what his lawyer said in the court case about it being an act.Slatersteven (talk) 09:56, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

It's a little ridiculous to pretend lawyers not wanting a shock jock's radio show to be admitted as evidence in a custody trial = "fake news website".72.80.143.187 (talk) 01:31, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

@WilliamLehnsherr:Erm didn't Jones' own lawyer admit that "He’s playing a character" and "He is a performance artist"?123 Bennv3771 (talk) 09:57, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Possibly. I always figured he was exaggerating or playing up some of his views, but I never thought he wasn't a genuine conspiracy theorist. He may not act or talk in real life the way he does on his show, but I doubt he's playing a character the way, say, Stephen Colbert did. WilliamLehnsherr (talk) 10:13, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

You're entitled to your opinion, but that's all it is. I'll rather trust what the reliable sources and Jones' own lawyer say than a random person on the internet. Bennv3771 (talk) 10:22, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

If he plays up some of his views (I.E. exaggerates) then he is knowingly being untruthful.Slatersteven (talk) 10:24, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Jones presented the argument his bombastic character on the program was an act because he was in a custody battle. It was a credible legal defense to help him retain rights to his children. This can be presented in the article but to sum up his message as being entirely fictitious and knowingly so is disingenuous.

It is obvious to me the powers that be wish to maintain a certain visage with this article and my input is not appreciated. I will not press the matter. -- Lunatic, Esquire (talk) 06:47, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually he did not, his lawyers did (he then contradicted them). It was another users who suggested he played a character. Either way his legal team said it was an act. If this was a lie to win a custody battle that means...he lies in order the create an impression. Also no one said we can use this in the article to prove he is a liar. What we have said is that RS say infowars is fake new, so do we. Appeals to Jones's integrity however fall due to the fact he is a proven liar.Slatersteven (talk) 09:04, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't see how that's a lie. Alex Jones is basically a pundit. All pundits are "actors" in a sense. The idea that you can take someone's punditry and use it as a character smear in a court case is obviously, palpably absurd and this motive adequately explains the lawyer's actions and statements + is backed up by the RS's. 72.80.143.187 (talk) 01:33, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

HIS lawyers swear trying to smear him?Slatersteven (talk) 07:38, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Where is the proof that this infowars is a fake news website? - MyllaPenny — Preceding unsigned comment added by MyllaLane (talk • contribs) 11:01, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Can you please not put new question at them top of threads (I have taken the liberty of moving it). You want evidence it repeats fake news? How about the claim that a yogurt company "supports 'migrant rapists'"?Slatersteven (talk) 11:28, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

You understand Steven that his site also carries opinion pieces right? If you want evidence that he doesn't solely spread fake news I can grab you a list of at least 15 reports that the site got right. To say it is entirely fake news is wrong.

216.118.132.115 (talk) 00:08, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

No one is saying that his site is solely or entirely fake news...I'm sure the site gets one of two things right every now and then. The definition of "fake news" doesn't claim that as the definition either. The current basis for labeling infowars as fake news is that reliable sources label it as such too. Bennv3771 (talk) 00:20, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

"Occasionally reports technically accurate information". Persuasive. Sometimes fake news gets it right, and sometimes reliable outlets get it wrong. We don't count score, we go by what sources say. Grayfell (talk) 00:29, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Reliable sources also label CNN, FOX and other's as fake. The whole sentence should be taken out. Simplesim (talk) 02:44, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

@Simplesim: Please provide links of these reliable sources labeling CNN et al as fake. Bennv3771 (talk) 02:47, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Even if this is true, that is not a reason to take out the line, but one to add it to other articles.Slatersteven (talk) 06:51, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

A lot of sources might label it as fake news site, but the whole concept of something being a "fake news" site refers to intent, which is really difficult to establish. I want to suggest that the sentence gets rephrased form "His website, InfoWars.com, is a conspiracy and fake news website" to "His website, InfoWars.com, is a conspiracy website. Many also view it as fake news website because some of the news reported turned out to be false." and then include the same references Openbaringen (talk) 07:34, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

So do you have any RS saying this is not deliberate?Slatersteven (talk) 08:53, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Ostensibly it is hypocritical that InfoWars is described as a 'fake news website', whereas networks such as the Huffing Post, BuzzFeed, and the Guardian - each of which verifiably publishes a far higher rate of stories that are not reflective of reality than InfoWars does - are not described thusly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:980:855f:1:e53f:6c22:49e9:d87e (talk) 20:55, 24 October 2017‎

Maybe, but until RS describe them so that is the way it is.Slatersteven (talk) 21:01, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Actually, even many of the there cited references do NOT claim that it is a fake news website - just that it is accused of being one. I will correct the text accordingly, to correctly match the sources. Harald88 (talk) 16:44, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

::In fact, NONE of them calls them a fake news website. It is buch of a FALSE citations. Thus we must remove ALL of them or keep the correction that I made. Harald88 (talk) 17:01, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Alex Jones Political Party

I removed republican from Alex Jones political party. I put libertarian and got several reverts on it and was going to push to have a dispute resolution. However, after reviewing archived discussions, it had been agreed to with review from 'admins' that Alex Jones's Political party can't be decided. As he has political document showing different parties by different legitimate sources including records for past times he ran for office. After reviewing this information from the archives I decided to go with their original decision to leave it out and note it here. Contentcreator (talk) 07:35, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

What "review from 'admins'", can you link to the discussion?Slatersteven (talk) 07:44, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Missed the response several discussion took place see Jones's political party affiliation for a summary. See [This edit request] for intervention from an admin.

Contentcreator (talk) 21:17, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Is an Qwyrxian admin? Also a situation can change, at least one of these if over 5 years old. But it needs msourcing.Slatersteven (talk) 09:59, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

It is somewhat irrelevant on the length of time unless we have sources his party changed in those past few year. People do not change parties often. If you look though in the archives the point is that there are too many contradictory sources on this. It seems to be the most discussed point looking through the archives and it always ends the same way with party just being removed. Here are is a more recent [conversation] I found that decided the same. Contentcreator (talk) 05:29, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Russia

I removed the description of being an alleged pro-Russia propagandist from the lead. It was cited from Accuracy in Media, which as you can read is basically a carbon copy of Infowars itself: anti-UN, climate change denialist and believing in a liberal conspiracy. You shouldn't include the allegations of a group like this in any biography of a living person. I have no qualms for allegations of being a propagandist being re-inserted if the sources are stronger Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 02:53, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

MjolnirPants do you even know who AIM are when you reverted me? They more frequently make these allegations against liberals, who they believe control the media. If someone put one of their allegations on an article about a liberal, you would, like your profile says, rightly call them a POV pushing charlatan. Why is it acceptable here? Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 11:02, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Read the article on them, look at their website. Maybe you had a case of mistaken identity but if you still think they're reliable or non partisan I will be amazed Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 11:05, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

[1] it's an organisation which thinks Fox News swung to the left because they aired a piece reiterating the scientific consensus that global warming is real and man-made. So was my edit summary correct or incorrect? You can't just answer like a six year old and say "no it's not" Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 11:15, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

if you revert me again I will go to ANI because it's very troubling that an experienced user does this Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 11:16, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Whether Fox thinks them left wing is irrelevant. As to Accuracy in Media has this source been disused at RSN?Slatersteven (talk) 11:22, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

No, they've never been discussed at RSN because Anarcho is the first editor to ever question their reliability, as far as I can tell. @Anarcho-authoritarian: you can run off to ANI if you want. Here's a link: WP:ANI. I will revert you again if you don't stop and discuss. If you can make a case better than "They're biased" I would be open to listening, but so far, all you've done is repeat the same old canards dozens of brand-new editors have had shot down hundreds of times before. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:49, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

What?Slatersteven (talk) 15:47, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

@Slatersteven:Sorry, Slater, that last wasn't directed at you, and I didn't intend to make it look like it was. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:57, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Fair enough.Slatersteven (talk) 16:00, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Slatersteven I never said Fox calls them left wing, the opposite. This is a right-wing think tank that thinks all news is a liberal conspiracy, including Fox. Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 17:48, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

So far, you've offered a completely unsupported assertion by saying it "...is basically a carbon copy of Infowars...", you've cast aspersions by implying that I'm a POV pusher, you've demonstrated a battleground mentality by referring to my edit summary as being "...like a six year old...", you've offered the same exact sort of argument that gets shot down constantly on political pages by saying that since they're biased, they're unreliable and you've threatened to go to ANI over a content dispute.

So you've raised just about every single red flag that you could possibly raise to indicate that you are here for POV pushing. Assuming that you're not, please try to make a coherent case (with evidence) that AIM is unreliable either in general or for this particular claim. If you can make such a case, I'm certainly open to it. But if all you have is the rhetoric you've used thus far; you're not going to convince anyone. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:00, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Absolute bollocks. You don't even know, or refuse to acknowledge, that the source is run by a guy monitored by the SPLC, if you're not a POV pusher you're WP:INCOMPETENT or can't read Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 18:03, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Did you read any of the sources on the AIM page, or do your own research on stuff like this? You'd be the first to revert if I added any of their smears of liberals onto a BLP article. You're just being stubborn. Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 18:04, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

My mistake. Do you have Accuracy in Media's statement, or are we going to rely on what someone has said they said? Also the bias of a source does not render it non RS, only its reputation for accuracy. I think this needs to go to RSN.Slatersteven (talk) 18:06, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

"Accuracy in Media's Cliff Kincaid revels in attacking the 'liberal' press. But he reserves a special loathing for homosexuals

− − Cliff Kincaid is one of the American far right's most energetic and obsessive propagandists. For more than 30 years at Accuracy in Media (AIM), a right-wing outfit opposed to the "liberal" media, Kincaid has cranked out reams of material — rife with innuendo and speculation but light on facts —aimed at buttressing his far-right, xenophobic and homophobic views."

− − You may as well use Alex Jones himself as source on other articles Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 18:06, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

As there is an ANI over this now lets allow that to run it's coarse.Slatersteven (talk) 18:10, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

A careful reading of the AIM piece shows that they do not call Jones a pro-Russia propagandist, but make a much vaguer claim about his possibly regurgitating "information" which began as Russian propaganda. These are not the same things, as being a propagandist implies intent, which repeating propaganda requires nothing more than gullibility and a lack of fact-checking. As such, I have removed the statement. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:09, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Please restore label of "far right" and "businessman" to Alex Jones

Someone vandalised the page and removed the "far right" and "businessman" label, please restore the labels. Thank you. The user who removed the labels had no right to remove them from the heading without proper discussion here. 175.156.9.11 (talk) 14:34, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Was Alex Jones far right when he opposed the Bush administration? Ktm4391 (talk) 15:57, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

What did he oppose about it?Slatersteven (talk) 16:00, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

I looked into this and have found only a couple sources. I have found numerous more sources that refer to him as 'right-wing' 1,2,3. There is a wide-consensus he is on the right but few that he is on the far-right. Objectively far-right parties are nazi or fascist like parties of which Jones is not a member of. Does Alex Jones hold extremist views? Yes as the content here shows. Are these extremist views right-wing? Nothing posted here suggest that. The extremist view points he holds are conspiracy related and many of them attack political figures indiscriminate of political party.

There is no consensus that he is far-right and this blatantly violates of Wikipedia:USEBYOTHERS. This is confusing to a reader who sees the far-right label and sees mostly organizations which are far right and a few people who were/are associated far-right political parties.Contentcreator (talk) 00:26, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

One need not be a card-carrying member of a far right group to be considered as such, so there's your first error in judgement. Reliable sources refer to Jones as far right, thus this article follows suit. TheValeyard (talk) 00:32, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

You did not link the other sources. I have found only two as I stated. Far more sources, I listed three only refer to him as right wing. You also did not seem to read anything other than that by mentioning 'card-carrying member of a far right group'. Please refer to ideological view points I mentioned because this article does not establish them and also please refer to the far-right label as Alex Jones hardly seems to fit in with the people mentioned here. Contentcreator (talk) 00:42, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Also you seem to be confused on what the rules are for "reliable source" since you didn't link them. Just because it is from a known and popular news website with editorial standards doesn't make it reliable for a particular statement of 'fact' which on the source I have seen loosely uses it to describe Alex Jones. Please refer to WP:NEWSORG which states, "Whether a specific news story is reliable for a fact or statement should be examined on a case-by-case basis." Contentcreator (talk) 01:15, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm not confused by anything, really, nor are other editors who have reverted the changes made by you over time. You pop up on this talk page, make the same arguments that fail to gain consensus, then disappear. What do you have to offer today that is different from 2 October, 30 September, or 24 Sept? TheValeyard (talk) 01:26, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

I can easily address your inflammatory and false statements but what does this have to do with that is being discussed with adding back the label.Making personal attacks in the talk page is not appropriate and against wiki rules. Please see Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Contentcreator (talk) 01:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm fairly confident that I have made no personal attacks, but YMMV. You have returned to this talk page several times over the course of a month or so with the same argument, I believe it is a fair question to ask if you're bringing anything to the table today that hasn't already been rejected in the past. Also, can you explain exactly what you're trying to say in this edit? "His website, InfoWars.com, is a conspiracy and fake news website.", with conspiracy linked to conspiracy theory. "His website is a conspiracy theory" does not seem to be grammatically coherent. TheValeyard (talk) 03:26, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Again, this of which I do not know what you are referring to has nothing to do with this discussion. Page names don't always make sense to the sentence hence why I have an anchor. See "Jacinda Ardern "New Zealand to have a referendum on whether recreational marijuana should be legalised" which page name is "New Zealand cannabis referendum" which would make the sentence ""New Zealand to have a referendum on New Zealand cannabis referendum". You can change it if want. I have a talk page which you can post details of this or the other things as I don't know what you are referring to. As for personal attacks, I reported this incident at notice board. Please keep the discussion on track. Contentcreator (talk) 03:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

The discussion is quite on-track; reliable sources describe Jones as far right, so the Wikipedia article follows suit. This isn't hard to understand. And there have been no personal attacks. Again, you bring up the same points week after week, and at some point that becomes a sanctionable action per WP:DISRUPT. Going to the admin board with this joke of a complaint is probably not wise, as it may turn a light on to your own activity. TheValeyard (talk) 04:04, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Week after week? From the times you listed almost it was 9 days on one issue and then I came back 19 days later. The only joke is someone not discussing the subject and constantly making the same point without example to back them up and the fact you actually think the page name needs to be grammatically correct when an anchor is used.Contentcreator (talk) 04:36, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

You have looked in this talk page's archives to see where "far right" has been discussed already, right? TheValeyard (talk) 04:43, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

No I looked into the archive pages to see if Alex Jones was a part of the republican or libertarian political party. There was no consensus I just noted I couldn't find any documentation to prove he was a member of either party and why I chose not to pursue my original edit. Contentcreator (talk) 04:49, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Austin Community College

Did he graduate from this two-year junior college and, if so, in what field? Some clarification seems necessary. If not, has he established his media empire merely on the basis of a high school diploma? 61.92.8.220 (talk)