Talk:Malaysia Airlines Flight 17

Comparison to other accidents

I saw the "Accident Trivia" section on the old talk page. I respect everyone's opinion. But I feel that comparing this to other accidents IS important for various reasons: 1. Other articles do list the death toll and compare them to other aviation accidents, while this one doesn't list any except for MH370. 2. In a no survivors crash, the word "all" is usually typed up in parenthesis next to the # of fatalities, whic is to prevent confusion. I don't know why, but some poeple feel that the "all" is unnecessary, but I think with out it, it would be confusing, so therefore, it is necessary! Also I typed this into the article multiple times, but people kept removing it (no offense to them by the way):

"The 298 death toll also makes MH17 the deadliest accident in the history of Malaysia Airlines, the deadliest aviation accident to occur in Ukraine, the deadliest aviation accident involving the Boeing 777, and (as of March 2018) the deadliest aviation accident of the 21st century."

So what do you think. do you agree or disagree? Be honest!Tigerdude9 (talk) 22:25, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

No objection. But I realise some editors see it as a waste of effort. Perhaps it's best left to the List of Accidents (and other?) tables? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:32, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

No, I disagree with addition of further trivia, as have other editors. There is already a trivia sentence in the lead: "The crash is the deadliest airliner shootdown, seventh-deadliest aviation disaster, and was Malaysia Airlines' second aircraft loss during 2014 after the disappearance of Flight 370 on 8 March.[5]". As for the "(all)" - there is already "survivors = 0" in the infobox. It is redundant to double it up. Stickee (talk) 22:56, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Ok, you are right. the long part about MH17 being the deadliest of the 21st century is too much and should either: not be there at all and have the trivia remain the same, edited to be ample, or just put the whole thing on the bottom. of the top page. To be honest I think I'm just going to with the first option.

However, if I do make another edit about death tolls (which I probably won't), would the following be considered ample? "The crash is also the deadliest accident involving the Boeing 777." I noticed that for an article on the deadliest accident involving a certain type of aircraft the article usually says it is the deadliest involving said type of aircraft. But as I said earlier, I'm not trying to bloat up the trivia or cause further confusion. Thank you.Tigerdude9 (talk) 16:12, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Here's an opinionated mini-essay about what I would consider to be trivia, and what I wouldn't. What is trivia: Generally, trivia are factoids that may be true but whose truth value have no discernable consequence in the real world. One way to create trivia is the misuse of categorization to create a potentially unlimited number of meaningless comparisons. I don't consider it trivia to mention that Malaysia Airlines lost two airliners in 2014, because there were real-world (financial) consequences of that fact for the airline, and because it's likely that some readers may get these events confused. So for those reasons I wouldn't consider that factoid to be trivia, it's actually kind of useful because I consider these two MH accidents to be a natural category. I would consider "deadliest accident in an even-numbered year" to be trivia because it would be based on an artificial category. "Deadliest accident ever", if it were true, would be a natural category and therefore more likely to have meaning.

In practice, not all trivia is bad, but much of it is. Ultimately whether an item of trivia should be mentioned or not depends on whether sources are discussing it, and how much depth of coverage it gets. Usually, they don't tend to cover lists of deadliest accidents much. There are lots of sources talking about this incident, few if any are worried about where this ranks in terms of 777 accidents, so there's no strong reason to mention this. Yes, there are online databases for enthusiasts, where you can find this information if you seek it out. Those sites are potentially usable as sources, especially if you have a list article that is designed to rank things. But since few other sources care about these comparisons, it should generally be left out of the main article. "Deadliest Accident Ever" is something that sources will probably discuss widely, so that would be included. How widespread a factoid is being discussed in reliable sources is the most important thing in determining whether a factoid should be included in a Wikipedia article, the term for this principle is "Weight". In theory, this means that the decision about what is "important" or not is made by sources and not Wikipedia editors.

It's my personal opinion that an ideal article would cover everything that has sufficient weight, and no more. I believe that not all information is equally useful, and that useful facts are actually made less useful when they're buried in irrelevant ones--even if all the facts are verifiable and known to be true. Not everyone necessarily sees it that way. In practice, when using the Weight criterion, different editors disagree about what has Weight and what doesn't, and how much Weight things seem to have, and this often gives rise to debates until some kind of agreement (consensus) is reached between a majority of editors. The harder it was to get consensus on something, the less friendly and welcoming established editors will usually be towards anyone that tries to change it! Also the editors that wrote one article may have had nothing to do with another article, so expect some variation between articles. This subject matter has a lot of geopolitical overtones, so there may be less overlap between this particular group of editors and the ones that might be editing an article about some crash caused by pilot error than you might expect.

I don't know why so many crash articles have "(all)" mentioned when it isn't necessary for encyclopedic prose. A plausible hypothesis is that the editors who write aviation articles may be more likely than others to be culturally/habitually attuned to the importance of redundancy in mission critical checklists. I don't see how that would confuse anyone, but if this weren't a Wikipedia article and actual lives were depending on all the numbers tallying, then I would feel differently about it. Geogene (talk) 20:16, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Keep in mind that MH17 was not an accident, it was shot down, so any comparisons to aviation accidents is not really relevant. Also we have a consensus to not write "all" and "survivors = 0", as it is redundant. - Ahunt (talk) 20:57, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

I concur, although I'm not convinced it was actually fully intended to shoot down a passenger airliner. We don't tend to compare civil disasters with wartime ones. In the UK maritime world RMS Titanic and RMS Lusitania are not really usefully compared, are they? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:08, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Capitalization

Is "Russian Government" a proper noun as a whole? Or is "Russian" an adjective and "government" a noun? It matters for capitalization. The article is presently at variance with itself. Heptor (talk) 23:37, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Googling site:en.wikipedia.org "russian government" reveals that most don't capitalise the word "government". Stickee (talk) 07:43, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Since Russian is derived from the proper noun Russia, I'd think it will always have a capital letter. In British English you'll often find Government with a capital g. But Wikipedia likes to have special rules on capitalisation. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:51, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

I googled a bit more. It seems like in many cases the word "Government" is capitalized when the writer is within the jurisdiction of that government. In other words, when the writer feels like it's his or her own Government it feels more natural to write it with a capital G, but when it's somebody else's government, the proper adjective[1] is often used to clarify which government the writer has in mind. Based on that I'd argue that Wikipedia should never capitalize the G for any government, since Wikipedia aims to be WP:Global. Heptor (talk) 00:31, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Intercepts

Regarding the two (currently last) sentences in the lead: "In late July 2014, communications intercepts were made public in which, it is claimed, separatists are heard discussing an aircraft that they had downed.[21][22][23][24] A video from the crash site, recorded by the rebels and obtained by the News Corp Australia, shows the first rebel soldiers to arrive at the crash site. At first they assumed that the downed aircraft was a Ukrainian military jet, and were dismayed when they started to realise that it was a civilian airliner. [25]". I suspect that the intercepts and the video of the crash published by the rebels are the same. Heptor (talk) 09:55, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

They're different. Follow the links and you can listen to the intercept and watch the video. Stickee (talk) 07:42, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Heptor (talk) 00:32, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Last paragraph

I think the last paragraph [Ed: in the lead] should be moved to the "Aftermath" section. The lead is definitely longer than four well-formed paragraphs. Also, as written, the lead seems to go out of its way to mention the word "Russia" as many times as possible, so it kindof reads like propaganda. There were a few other propagandist devices that I cleaned up recently, essentially using guilt-by-association: [2], [3]. I'm very concerned that it stayed in the articles for so long. Heptor (talk) 10:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I removed most of the excessive use of "Russia"[4], so it doesn't look too bad now in that sense. Still too long though. Heptor (talk) 11:57, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I now moved the paragraph to the "Aftermath" section as "discussed" above. We should be extra careful about giving descriptions like this undue weight, since it vaguely insinuates guilt. As per above, a Wikipedia article shouldn't read like propaganda for either side. Heptor (talk) 10:26, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Comment: These changes were surely "proposed", but not actually "discussed", as far I was able to find. (Personally I've noticed some changes made earlier, but haven't really noticed all what was going on in the article in the last few days.) As for the what's due and what's undue, it can work both ways: move of the Malaysian UNSC proposal (vetoed by Russia) from intro to "Aftermath": it seemed to me to be a pretty notable event in the context of the whole incident, so moving it into the section "Aftermath", without prior establishing general consensus, and under pretense of copy-editing, seems to me to be a rather large change. And attempts to remove allegedly "excessive" use of words "Russia/Russian" can also be seen in another way - Russian connection was usually pretty well supported by sources quoted (as I skimmed the changes), and it usually served to make more clear what forces were meant in the given context - so their removal can be also seen as an attempt to tone down the Russian involvement, which could be a case of wp:FALSEBALANCE. Not that I'm going to revert the changes, but I'd not going to oppose anyone who would like to review them in greater detail.-ז62 (talk) 20:15, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi ז62. Thank you for your comment. I wrote "discussed" in quotations marks somewhat ironically since I didn't get any responses to my post. I don't mind to re-open the topic, which of course deserves a thorough debate. That being said, I think the lead is reasonably balanced as it stands now: the Russian involvement is mentioned and thoroughly discussed, it's just that the word "Russia" isn't mentioned twice in every sentence as you can find in some Ukrainian sources, e.g. the public announcement by Yatsenyuk that is quoted in the article. Copy-editing is a valid supplementary argument, not a pretense: the lead was (still is) too long by Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section. My concern about the content is that that paragraph, when out of context, seems to insinuate that the Russian government may have blocked the investigation of the incident. This is at best an oversimplification: the DPR allowed observers unrestricted access to the crash site and also collaborated with the investigation in other manners. So this paragraph, when standing by itself and given a lot of weight, seems to create a one-sided impression of the situation to a less than fully diligent reader, thus violating WP:NPOV. Heptor (talk) 03:23, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

It's not about your opinion of balance, it's about whether the article's balance matches that of reliable sources. Stickee (talk) 10:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

@Heptor:

"Russia" and "Russian" served to identify clearly what side/forces etc. were meant (for the same purpose as "Ukraine" and "Ukrainian" are used there), in a quite complicated structure of sentences, depicting quite convoluted sequence of events, with involvement of forces of Ukraine, Russia and "pro-Russian-though-officially-not-supported insurgents" - not to assign any sort of blame on Russia as you for some reason imagined, in an undoubtedly well intentioned, but not quite so well thought through attempt at the article improvement.

What I mean - one-sided removal of words "Russia"/"Russian" do not improve readability of the intro, and their retaining would do not compromise balance of the intro in any way, as they serve merely to clarify/clearly identify what side/forces were meant, as supported by references.

Your mention of Ukrainian sources does not seem to be related to the copyediting of the English Wikipedia at all. Can you please clarify why you mentioned them?

'My concern about the content is that that paragraph, when out of context, seems to insinuate that the Russian government may have blocked the investigation of the incident.

No, it clearly states that the Russian government vetoed the 2015 proposal to prosecute those deemed responsible. Your concerns about possible misinterpretation seem to be a bit overreaacting and what disturbs me is your barely hidden intent to protect Russian government against even such a far-fetched possibility you somehow imagined.

You should also perhaps re-consider if the word re-open [the topic] is really appropriate here, as so far it hasn't been closed, and it would be pointless to think othwerwise.--ז62 (talk) 14:56, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Hello ז62. I agree that this topic needs to be debated I did not mean to imply that the issue was closed. The MH17 shoot-down happened in a war zone; the organizations connected to the crash put a great effort to avoid blame and shift it to others. At the risk of assuming a POV not everyone will agree with, I think there is plenty of blame to go around, and plenty of ways to present it. This would include at least the following parties:

• The DPR separatists. One can frame their actions as wilful targeting of civilians, as negligent use of advanced weaponry, or as an accident despite reasonable efforts under difficult conditions.
• Russian government. They provided the weapon that was used; some will also dispute that DPR is a separate entity from the Russian government.
• Ukrainian government. They directed civilian airliners into a war zone when there was very little practical need to do it; this can be viewed as an error perhaps by some official in the air traffic control, or it can be as wilful and malicious attempt to protect the Ukrainian Air Force by mixing it with the civilian traffic.
• Malaysian airlines. They flew an airliner into a zone of (aerial) combat, when there was little practical need to do so.

If you may pardon the apparent grandiloquence of the following, I am of course concerned about protecting the Russian government from undue blame as much as I am concerned about protecting everyone else. Blame distribution is not always about manipulating the facts as it is also about manipulating attention, and a large amount of effort is spent (off-Wikipedia at least) into obscuring what happened. This means that we who edit Wikipedia need to make an effort to state the matters plainly and avoid insinuating guilt, and make sure that the article don't present a false impression even when read superficially by a visitor without specialist knowledge. Heptor (talk) 16:30, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Shame that the Russian government doesn't share your wish not to create a 'false impression' isn't it. Keep up the good work seeking not to expose the Russian government to undue blame, it seems hard to believe that Putin, Lavrov et al aren't being as honest as possible. Ha, ha. 78.147.39.247 (talk) 14:55, 24 May 2018 (UTC)a short history of mh 17 on wikipedia and elsewhere [5]

@Heptor:

I did not mean to imply that the issue was closed

Then perhaps you should check a dictionary. It would also possibly help you with any legitimate copyediting work you'd attempt to undertake, on this article or elsewhere.

I would not comment at great length on all you wrote above (as it would be straying from the original issue - i.e. your excessive removal of the words "Russia/Russian" while claiming only copyediting concerns - to the events themselves), but my original point remains - you seem to be rather disturbingly concerned with protecting the Russian government ("and any other", except that you only removed mentions of "Russia/Russian" you didn't like/deemed "excessive").

Blame distribution is not always about manipulating the facts as it is also about manipulating attention, and a large amount of effort is spent (off-Wikipedia at least) into obscuring what happened.

Exactly my point - except that your excessive removals of words "Russia/Russian" can be easily interpreted in this, as these mostly served there to identify what side/forces were meant, not your imagined attempts to assign some undue blame. I would not say your edits were trying to obscure what happened, as I assume you meant quite well, but I can't see why you think they improved the article.

This means that we who edit Wikipedia need to make an effort to state the matters plainly and avoid insinuating guilt, and make sure that the article don't present a false impression even when read superficially by a visitor without specialist knowledge.

Well, for some reasons you're still avoiding some of the questions I've raised above. I mean, you can not seriously think that even the most superficially reading can mistake the 2015 UNSC resolution proposal for 2014 investigation - as you seem to believe? Please also read what Stickee wrote above. --ז62 (talk) 20:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@78.147.39.247

I assume your good faith, but I think you're not really helping here as much as you'd perhaps believe. (You should perhaps also consider registering.)-ז62 (talk) 20:36, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@62 - not trying to help at all, it was just like an exasperated comment. Is that o.k.? 21:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I certainly understand your position (and what could possibly lead it, given the whole history of attempts of the Russian government to distance itself from the event, at least verbally), yet not still completely appreciating overall effect of your contributions on the discussion here.-ז62 (talk) 21:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

What is your objection exactly? The word "Russia/Russian" is currently the fourth most frequently used word in the lead, right after the, that, and in (when "Russia" and "Russian" are counted together as one word). For comparison, "Ukraine/Ukrainian" is the eighth most frequent word (similarly counted), and the word "aircraft" comes in eleventh. So "Russia/Russian" is not exactly under-utilized, maybe still a bit on the heavy side. Heptor (talk) 21:27, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Russia was heavily involved. According to very RS. 78.147.39.247 (talk) 21:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, as is duly mentioned. However, the Donetsk People's republic was at least as involved, and they are only mentioned once. This seems rather artificial. We could for example replace "pro-Russian separatist-controlled territory" in the second paragraph with "DPR-controlled territory". Heptor (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Ultimately it all depends on what the sources say, not what is - according to your subjective opinion - "balanced". "Donetsk People's Republic" is an entity mentioned (due to its rather uncertain/internationally not widely recognised status) only sparsely by reliable sources given in the intro, so it's completely OK to mention the name only when given by sources.

We could for example replace "pro-Russian separatist-controlled territory" in the second paragraph with "DPR-controlled territory".

This would give unsubstantianted undue weight to the existence of the DPR as an actually existing entity. Please also read what I wrote on false balance, at least.-ז62 (talk) 22:25, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@Heptor: If you have any difficulties to find what my objection was, I'd recommend you to read what I wrote above. I surely do not object to use of words "Ukraine/Ukrainian" or "aircraft" (neither do I share your - so far unexplained - fears that the correct identification of sides/parties/forces would somehow lead to somewhat assign an "undue blame" on anyone - to the contrary, it could constitute a wp:FALSEBALANCE of kind. The problem here is not "excessive/not-excessive use of word Russia/Russian", the problem here is whether the forces/sides - as given by RS - are identified clearly in the text). Also you still haven't addressed the issue with the 2015 UNSCR proposal only you seem to believe to be prone to misidentification/misattributtion.-ז62 (talk) 21:49, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@78.147.39.247: Yes, that's what everyone knows, and only Heptor seem to be thinking that mentioning/or not mentioning these reliably sourced facts would somehow change the situation as a whole.-ז62 (talk) 21:49, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Russia/Russian is mentioned 15 times. How is that too little? Heptor (talk) 21:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Why are you writing that I object to correct identification of all parties? When did I say that you were objecting to use of word "Ukraine/Ukrainan"? Is the problem suddenly not the excessive/not-excessive use of "Russia/Russian"? Are you trying to say that "Donetsk People's Republic" is not a clear identification of one of the involved parties? Heptor (talk) 22:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Russia/Russian is mentioned 15 times. How is that too little?

You're the only one here thinking alone lines "X/Y" mentioned "too much/too little". Please read what I actually objected to, your fight against straw makes you lose last of your credibility.

Why are you writing that I object to correct identification of all parties?

Because since beginning you were consistenly arguing along lines of removing [allegedly] "excessive use of word Russia" without responding to objections based on the rather obvious referenced facts, that the sources given just identified forces/sides as such.

When did I say that you were objecting to use of word "Ukraine/Ukrainan"?

You hadn't, as this is something I've only mentioned offhand to illustrate possible problems of your approach to what your consider "neutrality".-ז62 (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Because since beginning you were consistenly arguing along lines of removing [allegedly] "excessive use of word Russia" without responding to objections based on the rather obvious referenced fact, that the sourcesgiven identified forces/sides as such.

Can you please point out to which of my recent edits you believe impeded the correct identification of the involved organizations? Heptor (talk) 22:29, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

[which of Heptor's recent edits] impeded the correct identification of the involved organizations

Have you meant your removals in the intro or your proposals/recent edits in the discussion? Because in the discussion you started here (removing "excessive" use of Russia) and , so far, finished there (suggesting to use "Donetsk People's Republic" as "correct"). You started with pretensions at copy-editing, yet your attempts are somewhat unbalanced, so as to say.--ז62 (talk) 22:38, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

:::::Do you object to any actual edits or edit suggestions that I have made? Heptor (talk) 22:43, 24 May 2018 (UTC) Retracted

I certainly did - please do carefully read my comments again, if you've failed to notice so far. It's quite unconvenient if you're somewhat unable to focus properly on what's discussed here. Also it's not entirely convincing when someone who attempts copyediting an article fails at basic reading comprehension. --ז62 (talk) 22:54, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

You write a lot, not all of it relevant to the discussion. Great many accusations, discussion of irrelevant semantics, condescending offers of assistance. Just a point to the case, you wrote your comment above three minutes after I retracted the post it was responding to. Why? Heptor (talk) 23:03, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, chiefly because any earlier response was impossible, due to numerous edit conflicts, your "retraction" nothwistanding. (Not to mention that you actually still do not seem to be really understanding what my objections were aimed at.)--ז62 (talk) 00:07, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

You are hardly one who'd be able to judge it all neutrally, are you? I just repeatedly pointed that your attempts to "remove excessive use of words Russia/Russian", and other changes you made under (initial) pretensions at copyediting/improving neutrality, are not actually improving the readability of article and seem to be rather suspicious. I'm sorry you failed to address these points and instead moved onto further defence of the Russian government and its allies. (I'm not a copyeditor myself, but I'd certainly not dismiss any discussion on semantics as irrelevant).--ז62 (talk) 23:36, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

So you object to my suggestion to replace the "pro-Russian separatist-controlled territory" in the second paragraph with "DPR-controlled territory". Anything else? Heptor (talk) 22:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Please do read rather carefully what I wrote here - my objections are more aimed against your persistent unreferenced attempts to push the terminology you personally prefer - for the sake of "neutrality" (as you subjectively see it) - instead of using correct descriptions as referenced by the sources given. I also quite of resent your attempts to dodge questions you've found inconvenient to deal with. --ז62 (talk) 23:00, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

When you write comments like you hadn't, as this is something I've only mentioned offhand to illustrate possible problems of your approach to what your consider "neutrality", I really don't know how to respond to that so I don't. Heptor (talk) 23:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I write comments as I do, and I believe it's clearly not my problem if you've failed to fully comprehend them. Certainly I can not understand why you've gained some of your incorrect impressions. If I had not assumed your good faith, it would perhaps can be seem as what is sometimes called "begging the question", on your part. --ז62 (talk) 23:30, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Are you trying to say that "Donetsk People's Republic" is not a clear identification of one of the involved parties?

I certainly didn't - if identified as such by the sources given, then why not? My point, from the very beginning I got involved in this section, is that the sides/forces should be clearly and inambiguously identified - as given by the reliable neutral sources - not as you'd personally fancy it, and certainly not in accord with your rather openly stated agenda to "not mention Russia excessively".--ז62 (talk) 23:46, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

ז62 I don't understand why you have such trouble with my -- yes, openly and plainly stated -- goal not to use the word "Russia/Russian" excessively. Obviously there were attempts by the Russian government to manipulate the facts, and we should be careful to keep this out of the article. But neither should we base this article exclusively on the Ukrainian narrative. You wrote that "[Using the phrase 'DPR-controlled territory'] would give unsubstantianted undue weight to the existence of the DPR as an actually existing entity". I can't agree with that. Existence of DPR as an actual existing entity is well supported by reliable sources. It's a somewhat weird that the article tries to avoid mentioning them.

You seem to be skeptical that I am mixing arguments based on writing style with arguments based on content. But those two are related. Forcing the English language to serve a prearranged narrative usually involves bending and twisting it into shapes it doesn't want to be in. In addition to the content issue, the excessive use of the the words "Russia/Russian" is meager writing. Using synonymous expressions for "pro-Russian separatist-controlled" would be a stylistic improvement. It would increase the variety of the language, and in addition "DPR-controlled" is both shorter and more precise.

The same applies to the UN draft resolution that you think should be in the lead. The content argument is that the Russian veto is given too much weight, and the stylistic argument is that the lead is already too long as it is. Heptor (talk) 10:33, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The sources I've seen don't refer to any "Donetsk Peoples Republic". They refer to "pro-Russian separatists" [6] and "Russian-backed rebels" [7]. The Donetsk Peoples Republic is a geopolitical euphemism promulgated by the Kremlin, and to call them that in Wikipedia's voice is POV. If the term must be used, it should be prefaced with "self-proclaimed". Geogene (talk) 16:57, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

OK.. May I ask you to please see the following sources that refer "Donetsk Peoples Republic":

• Kuzio, Taras (2015). "Competing Nationalisms, Euromaidan, and the Russian-Ukrainian Conflict". Studies in Ethnicity and Nationalism. 15 (1): 157–169. doi:10.1111/sena.12137. ISSN 1473-8481.
• Pettersson, Therése; Wallensteen, Peter (2015). "Armed conflicts, 1946–2014". Journal of Peace Research. 52 (4): 536–550. doi:10.1177/0022343315595927. ISSN 0022-3433.
• Laruelle, Marlene (2015). "The three colors of Novorossiya, or the Russian nationalist mythmaking of the Ukrainian crisis". Post-Soviet Affairs. 32 (1): 55–74. doi:10.1080/1060586X.2015.1023004. ISSN 1060-586X.
• Stebelsky, Ihor (2018). "A tale of two regions: geopolitics, identities, narratives, and conflict in Kharkiv and the Donbas". Eurasian Geography and Economics: 1–23. doi:10.1080/15387216.2018.1428904. ISSN 1538-7216.

These are all journals with at least some academic merit, I did not even bother checking the mass media sources. Heptor (talk) 21:18, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The vast majority of sources that cover MH17 don't. Therefore, this article shouldn't. Geogene (talk) 23:20, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I found the sources above with a Google Scholar search for "Donetsk People Republic". Some sources use "self-proclaimed", others don't. Those who don't seem to be in a small majority. A Google Scholar search for "Donetsk, War" since 2018, revealed similar results. Here is another source:

• Clem, Ralph S. (2018). "Clearing the Fog of War: public versus official sources and geopolitical storylines in the Russia-Ukraine conflict". Eurasian Geography and Economics: 1–21. doi:10.1080/15387216.2018.1424006. ISSN 1538-7216.

Heptor (talk) 23:54, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

This source uses "self-described autnomous republic"[8]. Which I think makes much more sense than "self-proclaimed", since about every single independent nation on this planet proclaimed their own independence. It wasn't the King who wrote the declaration of independence, right? Heptor (talk) 00:07, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Although a few people use the term, it is both politically loaded and uncommon. Stebelsky's paper you listed above calls Toal (2017), Near Abroad: Putin, the West, and the Contest Over Ukraine and the Caucasus "an excellent account and interpretation of these events". Toal is searchable in Google Books, "Donetsk Peoples Republic" occurs in it twice, once on page 257 and once on page 265. And "pro-Russian separatists" is both more useful to a reader who is unfamiliar with the Donbass War, and frankly it's a more accurate description of reality. Geogene (talk) 00:11, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

It's uncommon in that book perhaps, but Google returns about an equal number of results: Pro-Russian separatists, 296 000 results; "Donetsk People's republic" 223 000 results; "Luhansk People's republic" 50 200 results. I included "Lugansk People's Republic" since the term "Pro-Russian separatists" includes that entity, and possibly also other pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine and elsewhere. So, again, no good reason for Wikipedia to consistently use "Pro-Russian separatists" over the other terms. Heptor (talk) 08:03, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

@Heptor:

I don't understand why you have such trouble with my -- yes, openly and plainly stated -- goal not to use the word "Russia/Russian" excessively.

Then you should perhaps read what I wrote earlier and perhaps attempt to address it, instead of continuing your WP:IDHT.

But neither should we base this article exclusively on the Ukrainian narrative.

Are you now attempting to claim that someone does?

Existence of DPR as an actual existing entity is well supported by reliable sources

That was certainly not my point, and I'd really prefer to not straying from copy-editing to a discussion about your opinions on the "existence of DPR as an actual entity" - that's something that should not be dealt with copyediting of the lede, at least as the term copyediting is usually understood.

You seem to be skeptical that I am mixing arguments based on writing style with arguments based on content.

You've finally noticed? Perhaps we're moving on... Please also read wp:ES - as you initially attempted to claim that you were just copy-editing.

In addition to the content issue, the excessive use of the the words "Russia/Russian" is meager writing.

a) You're the only who claim that their use was (for some unstated reason) "excessive".

b) What exactly you mean by "meager writing"? I do not speak Russian, so I have only a rather vague idea what you've meant.

The same applies to the UN draft resolution that you think should be in the lead.

More precisely speaking - so far you're the only one who think it should not be in the lead, while giving rather unconvincing arguments for your position .-ז62 (talk) 20:31, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Investigators state that missile was owned by a Russian brigade.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44235402?__twitter_impression=true A more experienced user should probably integrate this information into the page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Nat7y (talk • contribs)

This has since been done, both in the lead and in the body (under JIT findings). Geogene (talk) 23:03, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

British ISC report

The last paragraph in this section should be cut down to the relevant information contained and moved elsewhere. It has nothing to do with any kind of investigation. Instead, it is a collection of statements yet unproven. Maybe some people find it interesting what MI6 wants the world to believe, but how is any of this relevant to the MH17 incident?

'On 20 December 2017, the British Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament published a 122-page report covering a substantial range or subjects, notably a section entitled "Russian objectives and activity against UK and allied interests". This section made clear the stance of Britain on the subject of Russia and its involvement in the MH17 event, stating that there is categoric evidence to support the claim that Russian military forces supplied and recovered the Buk missile launcher. This was the first report to outrightly accuse Russia of orchestrating the attack, although it does not state whether or not MH17 was the intended target. The report quotes MI6 as stating: "Russia conducts information warfare on a massive scale... An early example of this was a hugely intensive, multichannel propaganda effort to persuade the world that Russia bore no responsibility for the shooting down of [Malaysian Airlines flight] MH-17 (an outright falsehood: we know beyond any reasonable doubt that the Russian military supplied and subsequently recovered the missile launcher)".'

I have not read this report but it seems unbelievable to me that it would "accuse Russia of orchestrating the attack". This sentence, apparently not a verbatim quote, insinuates without supporting evidence that there WAS an ATTACK (instead of an accident, for instance) and that the crash was planned beforehand (orchestrated) instead of having occurred during some other and more likely kind of hostilities, say the attempt at shooting down fighter planes. Such assumptions might have a place in an encyclopedia article about MI6 conspiracy theories, but not in an article dealing with the facts about the crash, least of all under the heading "investigation". In addition, if there actually were "categoric evidence" to support their claims, it should be provided, and this alone would have a place here, not the unsupported claims of an intelligence service not directly involved in the investigation.

Even less fitting is the part with the yammering about Russia's alleged "information warfare" (the fact that their media didn't chime in with Western propaganda). Did they need to investigate this? Why, and who cares?

I am going to remove this paragraph now and if somebody reinstates it, as they undoubtedly will, please explain why and what it has to do with any kind of "Investigation", thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.97.170.7 (talk) 16:32, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Agree it doesnt appear to be relevant to the investigation or accident. MilborneOne (talk) 16:36, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

If you objection is that it is not part of the investigation that is fine, I have changed the heading so that it stands alone as a relevant report. - Ahunt (talk) 16:41, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I looked into the sources now and, somehow, I am not surprised. But I am. The only section in this ISC report dealing with Russia and the MH17 incident is on page 52, under #142 and it's just 98 words long. That's it. That's the entire basis for the paragraph cited above. The other source, a well-known propaganda outfit, merely points out this short text on page 52 of the ISC report and adds nothing to it, not anything substantial worth mentioning other than more opinion. So, let's quickly recount what the source does NOT say (as I already thought):

1. that "there is categoric evidence to support the claim that Russian military forces supplied and recovered the Buk missile launcher". No, this is the only statement about their evidence: "Written evidence – SIS, 30 August 2016." That is all. How does this "categorically" prove Russian involvement?

2. "This was the first report to outrightly accuse Russia of orchestrating the attack." False, the report nowhere alleges that Russia has "orchestrated" a damn thing with respect to MH17, let alone an "attack". I am going to delete this part and if you disagree, show me in detail where the report says any such thing.

3. What the report really states is that MI6 believe they "know beyond any reasonable doubt that the Russian military supplied and subsequently recovered the missile launcher". Okay, but this is what half the world believes and all Western media tried us to convince of daily for months. That's not news, that's not information. It would be, if they actually had cited evidence, but, guess what, they didn't. The Dutch should be miffed that they are expected to run around collecting witness statements when the Brits already know everything "beyond any reasonable doubt"!

Here is the passage in the report this entire "British ISC report" section is in reference to:

142. SIS informed us that “all three Russian intelligence services are tasked with carrying out ‘information operations’ [which] goes beyond promulgating the Russian perspective and includes the creating and propagation of forgeries and falsehoods”. One obvious area is Ukraine, where: Russia conducts information warfare on a massive scale... An early example of this was a hugely intensive, multi-channel propaganda effort to persuade the world that Russia bore no responsibility for the shooting down of [Malaysian Airlines flight] MH-17 (an outright falsehood: we know beyond any reasonable doubt that the Russian military supplied and subsequently recovered the missile launcher).164

164 Written evidence – SIS, 30 August 2016.

Person of interest in the ongoing investigation, Ivannikov GRU agent (article)

Just putting article of interest here

russian gru commander orion identified 78.147.39.247 (talk) 18:12, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Moving responsibility to the lede

An IP editor and Galassi recently copied the statement that "The governments of the Netherlands and Australia hold Russia responsible for 'its part in the downing of flight'.[6]" into the first paragraph in the lead. That seems a bit excessive. The lede is alredy very much filled with discussion about responsibility, and it is quite obvious that those governments hold the Russia partly responsible for what happened. This particular statement they are trying to insert is mentioned in Section "Findings of the Joint Investigation Team", with somewhat different wording. Heptor (talk) 13:58, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

But the governments are not JIT. This is most important information to date. May by it will be better to reduce other parts of lead.--Nicoljaus (talk) 18:19, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

It's significant information. Geogene (talk) 19:16, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, I didn't realize it was news. How about [9]? There, I placed this new sentence into the second paragraph, where the movement of the Buk system is discussed. I also removed the sentence "The JIT say they have established the identities of approximately 100 people, witnesses or suspects [...]". I think this is too much of a technical detail, almost taking attention away from the main results instead of supporting them. So I suggest replacing it with the newly added sentence. Heptor (talk) 22:03, 26 May 2018 (UTC)