Talk:Catholic Church and homosexuality

conflict in text

There is a discrepancy between the number of homosexuals killed between 1570 and 1630 in the text and the accompanying image of Thomas de Torquemada in the same section. The text references 800 or nearly one thousand while the image caption states that 150 were burned during the same period. While I am not a scholar and am disinclined to research the correct number, I feel this discrepancy is sufficiently significant to warrant further research and investigation to determine the correct number and the origin of the edit creating the discrepancy.

The text referenced is "Within Aragon and its dependent territories, the number of individuals that the Spanish Inquisition tried for sodomy,[92][93] between 1570 and 1630 was over 800[110] or nearly a thousand.[92] "

The image caption referenced can be found at : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_the_Catholic_Church#/media/File:Torquemada.jpg\

69.115.133.13 (talk) 17:45, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Daniel Yohannes

I haven't followed up on what's written or sourced, but do note that 800 tried vs. 150 burned is not a conflict or discrepancy. It is possible that not all those tried were condemned, that not all those condemned were executed, and/or that not all those executed were burned. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:46, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

The correct conclusion. Contaldo80 (talk) 08:54, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

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Too long

This article has 117k of readable prose which is WP:TOOLONG. The longest sections are, in order, Political Activity, History, Differences from Church Teaching, and Notable Gay Catholics. I propose that we WP:SPLIT this article into several smaller articles, leaving summaries here. I think the list of gay Catholics should be the easiest to do.

Incidentally, I would like to call attention to the fact that the differences section has 60k of text, but the defenders only has 6k. I haven't reviewed it in great depth, but belive this could be an WP:UNDUE weight issue. --BrianCUA (talk) 21:04, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Undue weight because we can't find enough material to "defend" Catholic teaching?! Do we always get an equal balance - do we do that with evolution or climate change for example? Perhaps we need to make sure there is more material to show why people think evolution isn't real, that way we don't risk UNDUE. Please. It terms of splitting how about we spin out "Defenders of traditional Church teaching" for a start - that way we can really ensure we do this side of the debate justice. Contaldo80 (talk) 10:35, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Agree that the article is too long. It has become redundant and repetitive. (See what I did there?) Since it's redundant no need to split--just trim. Regarding evolution and climate change, you're dealing with 2 experienced editors here so, so I'm amused you're pulling the WP:OTHER stuff exists card.

Clearly the controlling policy here is WP:FRINGE "a Wikipedia article should not make a fringe theory appear more notable or more widely accepted than it is." Furthermore sections of this article are blatantly violating WP:PROFRINGE. – Lionel^(talk) 11:19, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

No I'm sorry Lionelt that's simply not good enough. You need to be clear WHERE sections of the article are repetitive. Or where they are redundant. Be targeted and specific. Likewise there's no point throwing around a statement about "fringe" and violations etc, without making a very specific point. I'm doubtful anything in the current version is indeed fringe - unpalatable for some maybe, but fringe? I'd also ask Catholic editors to put their religious allegiances to one side in approaching this discussion - in fact I'd be encouraged to see Catholic editors make additions to the article which are actively critical of the Catholic church in some way to demonstrate they are acting in WP:GOODFAITH. Contaldo80 (talk) 12:24, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Contaldo, would you agree that the article is too long and should be split in general? Where do you think that should happen? --BrianCUA (talk) 14:11, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Contaldo80, do you agree that this article is is WP:TOOLONG? Where do you think we should trim or split? --BrianCUA (talk) 14:02, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm not convinced it is too long. But if action needs to be taken then suggest we spin out catholic church teaching into its own article. Although you slightly undermine your argument by spending the last few edits adding considerably more material to the article! Contaldo80 (talk) 09:37, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

What makes you say that? The WP:SIZERULE says that an article over 100k "almost certainly should be divided." What is special about this article that would make it an exception? ---BrianCUA (talk) 14:30, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Roscelese has reverted my edit spinning off a section of this article into List of LGBT Catholics. I admit I am not an expert in this, and if the split and summary could be done better by someone else then I would welcome the help. Do you think you could do it, Roscelese, rather than simply reverting the edit so now that all of the information is in two places? Also, as it stands now, the article is 102k of readable prose, which is much too long. The biggest section here is on political activity. Much of what is in there is not "political," so I think trimming that down and spinning it out would be advisable. --BrianCUA (talk) 14:30, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I actually just missed that there was a spinoff article now. I'm biased because I started the section on this basis, but I think we could excerpt in this article some of the mentions that are actually quite relevant to the intersection of Catholicism and homosexuality (eg. Wilde, Mapplethorpe) now that the list primarily comprises people who just happen/ed to be both. To phrase it another way, there's material in what is now the spinoff that is pretty relevant to the main article, but you wouldn't know it. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:13, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for taking another look at that Brian. I tried to reorganize it into prose a little better; tough for me to cut/omit some of them though! (Poulenc, Hall, Cocteau...) –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:20, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

NPOV

Contaldo has asked for clarification with this edit. I object to the title "Discrimination against gay men and women" for two reasons. For one, it simply does not accurately describe what is contained in the section. For example, I'm not sure how either of the following statements could be considered "discrimination "In October 2016, Robert McElroy the Bishop of San Diego held a diocesan synod on the family that called for improved ministry toward gay and lesbian Catholics. In 2017 the diocese of Jefferson City, Missouri said it would permit transgender students in its Catholic schools." or "In June 2017 Cardinal Joseph Tobin, Archbishop of Newark in the USA, held a "Pilgrimage" Mass specifically for LGBT Catholics from around New York and the five dioceses in New Jersey at the Cathedral Basilica of the Sacred Heart. Many of the attendees were married to same-sex spouses, and participated in the Sacrament of Holy Communion." Secondly, the word "discrimination" is pejorative. At a minimum we need to rename the section, but it propbably needs a good editing and reorganization as well. --BrianCUA (talk) 13:56, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

The section points out that a bishop in Peru called people "faggots", that staff have been sacked from schools for marrying same sex spouses, or that polish bishops opposed legislation that would have protected citizens from discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. How is this not dealing with discrimination. Discrimination is a word - it's not perjorative. If you're going to spend energy on making this article rose-tinted from the perspective of the church then I fear we're not going to get anywhere - and I sincerely hope you are not an employee of cleric in the catholic church. I'm assuming good faith that you're not.Contaldo80 (talk) 17:28, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

You didn't respond to my concern that the section talks about more than just discrimination. Does that mean you agree with me that this article needs a good editing and reorganization? I didn't delete any content yet, but I am not convinced that this article needs to contain a collection of every negative thing ever said by a member of the Catholic Church about gay people lest we run into WP:UNDUE concerns. WP:PROPORTION says that "discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic." That is not to say that this should be rose tinted, but neither should we swing too far in the either direction either. --BrianCUA (talk) 17:50, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm afraid I did. I read through the section again at I'm confident it's about discrimination. The church permits "just discrimination" and there are examples of where Catholic leaders have implemented this policy or where they have insulted or maginalised gay groups. I am not therefore convinced that the article does not "good editing and reoganization". Of course I'm always open to thoughts about how things can be improved. The best way is to draw out specifics, consider them collectively on the talk page and then find a constructive way forward. Again, please be specific. I also do need to address your point about lots of "negative" things - the history of Catholicism's relationship to those that are gay and lesbian is sadly very very negative. I think we can't really avoid papering over that and giving it all a cheerful spin. There are a lot of events that can be viewed as negative (or maybe positive if you are strong fan of the "traditional" church approach) but this isn't UNDUE - it's just the facts. If you think there are lots of great upbeat events about how Catholic authorities (particularly at the senior level) embrace and champion gay rights and inclusion, well that's great! Let's have more of that - feel free to share it. For most of it's history, however, the Catholic church was a proponent of putting gay men to death - I'm afraid we're probably going to have to work hard to suggest it's been a bed of roses instead. Contaldo80 (talk) 08:48, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

No one is suggesting that we rewrite the article to make it look like the history has been a bed of roses. You are correct that it has been, unfortunately, a very negative one, and quite often the Church's fault. However, I stand by the statement that this does not need to include a mention of every comment ever made. --BrianCUA (talk) 14:05, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

If you suspect an editor of WP:COI you are free to open a case at WP:COIN and submit your evidence. Until then... what is your suggestion for a new title of the section? – Lionel^(talk) 00:14, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Are you talking to me? I'm happy with the title of the section. Contaldo80 (talk) 08:48, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

I believe he is talking to you. This is not the first time you have accused me and others of having a conflict of interest, or of using Wikipedia to promote an agenda. --BrianCUA (talk) 14:05, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

That's fine. Can I ask directly if you are a priest, member of a religious order or member of the Knights of Columbus? If the answer is no to all of those then I accept there is no conflict of interest. Contaldo80 (talk) 09:36, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Whether or not I am a priest, a nun, a Knight of Columbus, a Knight of Peter Claver, or a Knight Templar is no more an indication of a conflict of interest than whether or not you are gay. Either or both of us could be any or all of those things and still constructively contribute to this article.--BrianCUA (talk) 14:21, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Point of correction - affiliation with an organization (the RCC, the Knights of Columbus) creates a COI in a way that belonging to a demographic group does not. No one's saying that believing in the dogma of the Catholic Church is a COI, but being paid to disseminate that dogma is a potential COI. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:13, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I've reverted some recent changes that did nothing but add cruft. Wikipedia isn't a free content host for the RCC, which has plenty of web space of its own.

False. We have never held that simple membership in an organization establishes a COI as understood under WP:COI. I have no opinion as to the actual disputed content here, but as an editor who is familiar with both our Catholicism articles and our COI guidelines, I did want to make that point. Additionally, repeated accusations of COI without evidence, especially if it involves speculation as to one's off-wiki profession or religious affiliation is generally considered to fall under the harassment policy. Comment on the content, not the contributor. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:43, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I can't see why on earth this would be harassment. It's reassuring ourselves that editors are acting in good faith. The evidence shows that the Catholic church has been active in discriminating against gay and lesbian men and women. This article deals with sensitive material. I would not be content if a paid employee of the Catholic church is editing this article without making that plain. That editors such as yourself or Briancua refuse to simply clarify that they are not paid employees worries me. It suggests there is something to hide. If there's nothing to hide then just say so and we can move on - knowing that everyone is editing in WP:GOODFAITH. Thanks. Contaldo80 (talk) 11:06, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

First, in regards to myself, I don’t edit current Catholicism topics in general beyond the naming dispute: I edit early modern Catholic history which is a field that many secular historians who are non-Catholic publish in as a part of academia. I’ve never revealed my religion or lack thereof or employment status on Wikipedia and I have zero intent of ever doing so. It’s quite frankly none of your business.

As to your general question: continued pressure to out oneself (by revealing persinally identifiable information) is a form of harassment because we do not require editors to reveal any personal identifiable information except in rare circumstances (PAID being one of them). Note that simply being an employee is not enough to require disclosure under PAID, and simple membership in an organization is not enough to trigger a COI under the COI guidelines (ex. being a volunteer adult leader in the Girl Scouts does not trigger a COI with the Girl Scouts). Please stop questioning Briancua about this. He has made it clear that he does not intend to reveal persinally identifiable information about himself, and continuing to push for it from him (and now me) without any actual evidence of a COI is against our behavioral policies. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:59, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

I didn't ask your religion - I asked whether you are an employee of the Catholic church or one of its subsidiaries. That this could be regarded as "persinally [sic] identifiable information" is simply not credible and in no way harassment. I haven't asked whether you or Briancua goes to church and attends mass (as you're right that this is none of my business). But it is not unreasonable to determine whether a Catholic priest is editing sensitive material relating to the Catholic church - as this could imply bias. But once again neither of you have denied it and so I'm afraid I retain my suspicions. A simple no would put everyone's minds at rest. Contaldo80 (talk) 13:30, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Demanding someone’s employer without any proof other than they edit religious articles is a form of harassment. The reason I refuse to answer is that I do not tolerate demands for personally identifiable information (which an employer is) unlsss there is a solid basis in fact for those claims. I’m telling you that your line of questioning here is in violation of the harassment policy as you are demanding users out themselves without any proof or evidence. Please stop. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:43, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Ok, in which case I take from your response that you are not employed by the Catholic church or a religious order associated to the Catholic church. I'll leave it at that. Should any additional information come to light at a future stage that contradicts that position then I think we all agree it will be a serious matter. Catholic priests and employees should not be editing articles about the catholic church and its position on gay rights without being absolutely transparent. Contaldo80 (talk) 14:00, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm surprised you've managed to edit for 12 years and 6 months with this attitude, but be assured, you won't be editing for very much longer at all unless that attitude gets a serious and significant adjustment. You DO NOT get to demand people reveal their employment history and harass them continually until they either capitulate or bugger off. This behaviour stops right here and right now, or you stop editing right here and right now. Your choice. Nick (talk) 14:10, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Fine - I'll take your (strongly worded) advice and stop this discussion thread. It was not my intention to harass any editor or to make anyone uncomfortable - if that's been the perception then I apologise. I've carefully read and re-read the policy in this area - Wikipedia:Harassment - but didn't see anything to suggest my approach violated this policy. The discussion shows that I haven't asked anyone to reveal their employment history. I was guided instead by the policy on COI which - naturally - discourages outing and says "When investigating COI editing, the policy against harassment takes precedence. It requires that Wikipedians not reveal the identity of editors against their wishes. Instead, examine editors' behavior and refer if necessary to Wikipedia:Checkuser. Do not ask a user if they are somebody; instead one can ask if they have an undisclosed connection to that person.". I tried to carefully avoid asking any editor directly if they are a particular individual; but rather I have asked whether editors have an undisclosed connection to the Catholic Church - mindful that "Conflict of interest (COI) editing involves contributing to Wikipedia about yourself, family, friends, clients, employers, or your financial and other relationships." I've done this not with malice but purely from the standpoint that his is a very sensitive article - LGBT rights and the Catholic church are frequently in confrontation. It requires a respectful attitude but also a transparent and open one. But as I said I will take the advice of administrators if they believe there is risk of a line being crossed. Contaldo80 (talk) 16:19, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Contaldo, it's not just you pushing to know personal details about other editors, including me. Your editing, and reverting, style is very aggressive. You frequently ascribe motives to other editors who disagree with you, and accuse them of not editing in good faith. I am probably guilty of some of this as well, so I make an effort to stop myself. I pledge to try and be more respectful going forward, and ask that you do the same. --BrianCUA (talk) 18:01, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

If you can commit to being even handed and to add material critical of the Catholic Church where appropriate (and therefore less defensive) then I wouldn't have to feel like it's so much of a battle, but rather elucidating readers on an important topic. Let the facts speak for themselves. The relationship between the Catholic Church and gay men and women has not been benign; and I don't think it's correct to make it appear so. Contaldo80 (talk) 18:00, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Contaldo, I've pointed out to you in the past that a list of news incidents about homophobic remarks (or tolerant remarks, for that matter) adds very little to the article. Have you considered looking at scholarship to see which incidents anyone's talking about more than a couple of months later? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:39, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

It's Contaldo80. Yes, I know your views thank you Roscelese. If there are specific "news incidents" you think have been over-stated then happy for you to flag them. I'd also like to point out that this is a live issue, rather than a historic one, and so the material will continually need to be updated/ amended to remain relevant. Contaldo80 (talk) 09:36, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Notre Dame

@Briancua: I'd keep the Notre Dame material in some form as it's mentioned in scholarship, not just as a news event. Perhaps the relevant aspect is that the trustees opposed anti-discrimination measures, while the faculty and students supported them. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:03, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

The citation listed was a link to Notre Dame magazine. I'd be open to including the information if a higher quality source could be found, but I believe that the article already is a collection of too many news events around a central theme, without much else linking them together. I'd love to see more in the way of scholarship in this article, as you mention elsewhere. --BrianCUA (talk) 14:15, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

It used to cite Cornwell's Breaking Faith, I'm not sure when that citation was removed. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:13, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

There was a very excitable Catholic editor (Esoglou) a little while back who made this article much, much longer than it needed to be as he insisted on every section setting every detail out. Notre Dame seems fine to me - an example of a Catholic institution once again blocking anti-discrimination. Where's the problem?Contaldo80 (talk) 11:01, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

I've restored it with the additional book source. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:39, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Well done - thanks. I agree it's important. Contaldo80 (talk) 08:57, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Former clergy

Contaldo has said that "These are not former clergy so take this to talk before you" change the section title from "Clergy" to "Former clergy." However, the text of the section makes clear that they are not currently clerics: "Bernard Lynch... was subsequently expelled from his religious order." Also, "a group of sixty-three former Catholic priests..." Thirdly, "Wendelin Bucheli... was removed from his diocese. Finally, "James Alison... formerly a member of the Dominican Order..." It is clear that this section is about men who are no longer in active ministry. I am reverting. --BrianCUA (talk) 15:53, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Yeah but they were clergy - that's the point! In fact some of them are still priests. "Former clergy" is completely unnecessary - other than an attempt to discredit them. Let the catholic church do that. That's not our job. Contaldo80 (talk) 13:26, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Non-notable content

I am going to remove, again, a few sentences where clerics made very unkind, very regrettable remarks. I did this once before, but Contaldo reverted. My reasoning is simple: they are not notable. At best, we could have a sentence in here that states that some reprehensible comments have been made about gay people before with several citations. There have been plenty of gay activists who have uttered very unkind things about the Catholic Church and individual members, but they are not listed here, nor should they be. This is not an WP:INDISCRIMINATE collection of statements, and "merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion." Also, as this is WP:NOTADIARY, "even when an individual is notable, not all events they are involved in are. For example, news reporting about celebrities and sports figures can be very frequent and cover a lot of trivia, but using all these sources would lead to over-detailed articles that look like a diary." Just because someone was said by a senior churchman does not mean it should be included here. --BrianCUA (talk) 17:12, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm afraid I disagree. The individuals involved in the material you have removed are the leaders of the Catholic church in their countries - cardinals, archbishops and senior bishops. I'm not sure you've demonstrated why a Catholic Cardinal is not notable in an article about the Catholic church!? The point is not that the remarks are "regrettable" (assuming they regretted saying or doing them - which incidentally they did not); but that they are illustrative. To move forward I think it most sensible to bring forward each statement you think problematic and then we can decide to keep, amend, or remove. Thanks. Contaldo80 (talk) 13:24, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

It is not that any single remark is not worthy of inclusion. They are like the Lilliputian's ropes. There's not a single one holding Gulliver down, but together they become too much for him. It's the same thing here. I agree that we should include a few "illustrative" examples. That does not mean we need to include every negative thing said by a bishop about gay people. Doing so would bring the article out of WP:PROPORTION because "discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic." I am going to cull these down again. If you think that I have gone too far, why don't you bring that specific example to talk and explain why it is worthy of inclusion here? --BrianCUA (talk) 16:18, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Size

At 62kb of readable prose, this article is growing WP:TOOBIG. I think it is time that we WP:SPINOFF another sub article. With 38kb of readable prose, the section on differences is by far the largest section here, and thus the best candidate for a new article. Additionally, since it makes up half of all readable prose (it was 60% before I expanded another section), we also have an WP:UNDUE weight issue. I'm going to get going on creating the new article with a summary here, and would appreciate any help. --BrianCUA (talk) 14:05, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

I think we could make the section a little more encyclopedic, but that seems true of every section in this article. I'd suggest trying to clean up the article before creating spinoffs that risk the article's balance. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:18, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Fair point. How do you suggest we proceed? What improvements would you like to see made? --BrianCUA (talk) 18:49, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Briancua I am wary about intentions. You seem awfully keen to "spin-off" sections that look even mildly critical of the Catholic church. Instead you have added a lot of material into the section on pastoral care and are now arguing that the article is too long. The history of homosexuality and Catholicism is an unhappy one - gay men and women have been persecuted and marginalised by the church. Any article needs to tell that story rather than a story about how the church loves the sinner and not the sin (as this informs few readers of anything meaningful). So we agree collectively the article is too long - and I'm not sure it is - then I think the section we "spin-off" first is pastoral care for catholics (as frankly this is the weakest and least interesting). This I've now done. Main article is much shorter now. Contaldo80 (talk) 08:48, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

My only intention is to improve the encyclopedia. I have cited several policies for why I think the article is too long and unbalanced. The argument you put forward is purely subjective. As it currently stands, roughly 40% of the article is about differences various people have had with the Church's teaching. As stated above, that is a NPOV violation. Given the entire scope of this article, that is easily WP:UNDUE weight. Additionally, when spinning off an article, as you did with the much smaller pastoral care section, policy states that you should leave a summary of the new sub article in the main. I will do so now, and welcome any edits to refine it. I am also going to create a new article for the differences, with a summary here, and again welcome everyone who is willing to edit in good faith to help improve it.--BrianCUA (talk) 01:52, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Bringing the lede into conformance with the Manual of Style

The lede section seems to have a number of issues that I hope we can address. The WP: LEAD is supposed to provide a "concise overview of the article's topic." Additionally, "Leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body." Because of this, the MOS:INTRO says "It is even more important here than in the rest of the article that the text be accessible. Editors should avoid lengthy paragraphs and overly specific descriptions – greater detail is saved for the body of the article." It adds that in the lede we should "avoid difficult-to-understand terminology" and that "The subject should be placed in a context familiar to a normal reader."

That does not happen in this lede. The lede is pretty long, and I don't believe that most readers will understand terms like "affective and sexual complementarity," "ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil," or "objective disorder." Additionally, the MOS says we should try to "avoid redundant citations" in the lede. Multiple sentences in this lede have five citations. Finally, "the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic." I don't believe that happens in the current lede either. We should strive to make the lede more balanced.

Given the sensitivity of the topic, and the contentious editing that sometimes takes place here, I am going to place a draft of a new lede below. I hope we can work on it here, gain consensus, and then move it to the main.

Proposed lede

The Catholic Church and homosexuality describes the relationship between the Christian denomination and the sexual orientation. The Christian tradition has generally proscribed any sexual activity between members of the same sex, and the Catholic Church maintains this teaching today. The Church also holds that LGBT people must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity, and every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.

While varying from diocese to diocese, the Church has provided pastoral care for LGBT Catholics through a variety of official and unoffial channels. In the late 20th and 21st centuries, there has been a call from some popes, bishops, and other church leaders to improve the amount and quality of pastoral care this population receives.

Some scholars and church leaders have dissented from the Church's teaching on homosexual activity, while others have supported it. The Church has been described as sending "mixed signals" regarding discrimination based on sexual orientation. It opposes gay marriage and civil unions for same sex couples, and also teaches that LGBT people should not be unjustly discriminated against. In many parts of the world, it is active politically around issues of importance to the LGBT community. The opinion of lay Catholics tends to be more supportive of gay marriage than the hierarchy.

There have been a number of notable Catholics who have been gay, including some priests and bishops. Gay activists have also staged protests against church teachings, sometimes disrupting mass and desecrating the Eucharist.

Yes I welcome this. The lede we had was the work of a Catholic editor in the past who felt strongly that more detail was needed rather than less. What we have now is a big move away from that so looks great. Contaldo80 (talk) 15:30, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Defence of church teaching

To keep in line with the other recent revisions to this article I have spun this off into a separate article. Otherwise would look add giving this particular aspect weight while others are not - and arguably more significant. Contaldo80 (talk) 09:07, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

For the avoidance of doubt (and I'm surprised that some editors have failed to note this) but the new spin out article is Organisations that defend the Catholic Church's official teaching on homosexuality Contaldo80 (talk) 09:27, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

The issue here is that this section is so short that it doesn't warrant spinning it out into it's own article. It is only 2,111 B of readable prose. Other sections are longer. The section on gay clergy, for example, is 2,725 B. This section makes up less than 15% of the total readable prose of the entire article, which means that it does not have WP:UNDUE weight. Additionally, the article as a whole is only 14kB at this point, which is well below the threshold to justify a split on length alone. For these reasons I am reverting. If this section grows in length and becomes too big, I would fully support spinning it off into a new article. --BrianCUA (talk) 02:32, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Please don't revert a that's no constructive. It's not a massively long section but it stands out now that the rest of the article has been restructured. It's the only section that has sub-headings! Frankly it's odd that in an article on homosexuality and catholicism the most coverage in the main article is going to a minor set of organisations. Courage International and Teen Life! This is skewing the reading of the thing. It's not clear to me why you think this section deserves such prominence. Contaldo80 (talk) 07:41, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Nb. Organisations that defend the Catholic Church's official teaching on homosexuality has been nominated for deletion (by another user). North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 07:54, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks - I'm aware. That issue is still being debated. What happens to that article does not mean that the text in this section remains however. Two different debates. Contaldo80 (talk) 08:00, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Rather than engage in an edit war, could you please cite some policy that supports your contention that this should be spun off? What if we reduced or eliminated the subheadings? --BrianCUA (talk) 12:57, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Looks broadly fine now. Contaldo80 (talk) 11:39, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Protests

One editor has disputed the following text: "Over recent decades a number of gay rights activists and supporters have protested inside and outside of Catholic church buildings to highlight the discrimination by the Catholic hierarchy against gay men and women, particularly in the area of civil rights." Can they clarify what they think the protests were therefore about? Protests have to be about something. Contaldo80 (talk) 07:44, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

The objection is that to use the word "discrimination" is not POV. I'll go a step further and say that it is unnecessarily inflammatory. – Lionel^(talk) 08:58, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

This is just daft. Gay men and women felt they were being discriminated against (and with some justification). That's why they were angry to protest. I hardly see this as "inflammatory". The argument you seem to be pushing is that they shouldn't have felt they were being discriminated against and so it doesn't count as discrimination. The point is circular. Contaldo80 (talk) 11:39, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

You're right, the protests were about something. The rest of the section describes what the protests were about, and in about half the cases it was about AIDS. Nothing in the the section talks about civil rights. The introduction should set the scene, and then we get into the details later. If you have a source that describes a protest that deals with civil rights, I would be glad to see you include a sentence or a paragraph describing it. --BrianCUA (talk) 12:54, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

If the protests were indeed about AIDS then what exactly where the protesters calling for? Let's be specific. Contaldo80 (talk) 11:39, 12 July 2018 (UTC)