Talk:Murder of Tessa Majors

Allegedly important opinion

The opinion of the New York times about comparability is irrelevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.19.12 (talk) 13:21, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

I am not sure that any of the three who killed Tessa Majors are Latino. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.19.12 (talk) 12:55, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Davis and Minton seem to be no Latinos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.19.12 (talk) 13:35, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Murder

Another editor is repeatedly moving this page to "Death of Tessa Majors" as if the sources have not reported a murder. This needs to stop. The New York Times describes it as a murder. A "judicial determination" or "conviction" of a suspect is not required. Whether one person or no one is convicted, or if the murder goes unsolved, we go by what the sources report. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 03:13, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

We avoid using headlines as they are often not written by the authors of articles. The NYTimes article doesn't use the term murder in the text. This is correct as murder is a legal term. We don't know if the courts will ultimately determine manslaughter or some other version of homicide. O3000 (talk) 12:31, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 3 January 2020

Murder of Tessa Majors → Death of Tessa Majors – a controversial and contested move; there has been no judicial finding of murder in this matter. WWGB (talk) 03:28, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 05:49, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

• Are you saying she wasn't murdered? There doesn't need to be a judicial finding of murder to say she was murdered. The judicial findings will be to determine if guilt can be placed on people for the murder of Tessa. I think you should have this discussion on the talk page of the article in question, or open up an RM discussion for broader input but it doesn't seem probable that a murder of a woman shouldn't be labeled as a murder. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 03:41, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
  • What I want is to have the original page title restored, so that an RM discussion can than be held without a prejudicial page move. WWGB (talk) 03:59, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
    • Why not open a RM discussion at the current title to discuss whether or not it should be kept or changed to some other name? Sakura Cartelet^Talk 04:11, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
      • Agreed, plus, RS are calling it murder, [1] and we had a few page moves back and forth, the best course of action is to discuss on the talk page or open a RM. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 04:12, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
• I've moved this from Requests to revert undiscussed moves, below, because the article's creator moved it to "Murder of..." on 20 Dec, the same day it was created. It then went through a small move war. This should be discussed by proposing a standard RM from its current title. Station1 (talk) 04:22, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

I moved the article to "murder" when moving it into the mainspace because that's what's been reported in the sources. It has nothing to do with whether or not a suspect has been convicted or a "judicial determination," of which there is no such thing. The determinations we rely on are those made by the sources, and they've called it a murder. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 05:59, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - This is clearly a murder case. You don't need a judicial finding. Its obvious from the reports that she didn't, for example, accidentally fall on the knife multiple times. -- Netoholic @ 07:50, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Sir Joseph, Netoholic, and Wikieditor19920. And per obvious WP:Common sense. This is one of those "WP policies are not a suicide pact" WP:IAR cases. We do not follow the strict letter of policies, guidelines, procedures, precedents, or other bureaucracy right down to a totally stupid result. It doesn't even matter if a court later finds someone guilty of, say, first-degree manslaughter, or not-guilty by reason of insanity. Some particular jurisdiction's statutory definition of murder isn't the only definition, and in everyday English this was definitely, obviously a murder, as the RS are already telling us. Please do not waste other editors' time with WP:WIKILAWYER silliness like this.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:03, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose I created this article under the "Death of..." title before moving it same day as pointed out. I realized that WP article titles are specific when possible, and murder victims are generally titled under "Murder of...". So those were the vague "conventions" I referenced when I moved the page. And yes, the RS call this a murder. There will never be a "judidical finding of murder", because people are tried, not outcomes. Even if no one was ever convicted of this murder, it would still be a murder. Enwebb (talk) 16:12, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Hey guys. I have been helping to edit and update this page since it was created. First, let me say thanks for all the work you guys are doing, and a special thanks to the person who created the page. I did not create the page nor have I been a Wikipedia editor for very long. But it seems to me that titling it as "The Murder Of Tessa Majors" is appropriate. The title does not suggest that specific people murdered her. And we are very careful not to do that in the page's text. Even though the evidence points towards those three youths being involved we cannot say for sure yet and until then we are not claiming that they are 100% guilty. Even though we cannot say for sure who killed Tessa we know how she was killed. It is 100% certain that she was murdered. How else does she end up stabbed several times? This wasn't a suicide or a justified homicide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LaraGingerbread (talk • contribs) 19:26, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose – I think that "murder of ..." is preferable to "death of ..." in this case. The reliable news sources (and the police authorities) are calling it a "murder". Whether or not someone is (actually) convicted of that murder is irrelevant. If we used that "standard" (i.e., requiring a conviction) ... then we would not be able to say that Nicole Brown Simpson was murdered ... or we could never discuss an "unsolved murder" or even a "murder-suicide". I don't think we need an official murder conviction to label a crime as a murder. There are many instances in which a person is "murdered" (and a "murder" occurs), and yet no one is judicially convicted of that murder. The non-conviction (for whatever reason) does not negate the fact that a murder occurred. Some clear examples: (a) unsolved murders (such as the Black Dahlia); (b) no convictions / murder-suicides (such as the Columbine High School massacre or the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting); and (c) acquittals (such as O. J. Simpson's acquittal in the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman). A murder being committed and a conviction resulting from it are two very different things. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:43, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Murder of Tessa Majors → Death of Tessa Majors, but would support Murder of Tessa Majors → Killing of Tessa Majors and, once a conviction is obtained, would subsequently support the move Killing of Tessa Majors → Murder of Tessa Majors. Such moves have occurred previously — one that comes to mind is Death of Aiia Maasarwe → Murder of Aiia Maasarwe at Talk:Murder of Aya Maasarwe/Archive 1#Requested move 20 January 2019 which had no consensus for the proposed "Death of..." main title header but, since no one indicated opposition to Killing of Aiia Maasarwe, the main header was moved thusly. Following conviction of perpetrator, it was moved again, on October 29 [by this RM's nominator], to Murder of Aiia Maasarwe. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:52, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

I will reiterate that a murder conviction (in court) is not necessary to label a crime as a "murder". As in this case. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 06:23, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

During our past discussions in previous nominations of this nature, a plurality of participants did agree that, for Wikipedia purposes, a conviction was in fact necessary if "murder of..." was to be used within the main title header. Otherwise, it should be "killing of...". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:15, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

I take part in a lot of these types of discussions. I don't recall that. Do you have any links? Also, what would be the "rationale" of requiring a court conviction for Wikipedia to label something as a "murder"? As I pointed out above, that "rule" would mean that we cannot call the Black Dahlia case a "murder" (since it is unsolved and no one was convicted); we can't call the Columbine High School massacre and/or the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting cases as "murders" (since the perpetrators committed suicide and were never convicted); and we can't call the Nicole Brown Simpson/Ronald Goldman case a "murder" (since O. J. Simpson was acquitted and no one was convicted). If we follow this new "rule" (i.e., requiring a murder conviction to label a crime as a "murder"), then -- by definition -- we cannot ever discuss "unsolved murders" or "murder-suicides" or the like here in Wikipedia. Why would the "standard" be different, between different articles? In close calls and "gray area" cases (e.g., police shootings), I think it's fine to call it a "shooting" or a "killing" or a "homicide" (without the term "murder"). (And, in such cases, we can wait for an official verdict.) But, not in "black-and-white" cases, such as Tessa Majors. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:43, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Another case comes to mind: Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. No one was arrested, much less convicted. Were these two girls not "murdered", then? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:44, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Yet another case comes to mind: the Zodiac Killer. He was never arrested, much less convicted. Nonetheless, were those five victims not "murder victims"? My point is: a death by murder and a murder conviction for such death are two totally different things. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:53, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Some of the arguments above have addressed the absurd outcomes that would result if we were to follow the flawed reasoning proposed re: calling it a "death" or "killing" as opposed to a murder, when murder is what has been reported. The notion that Wikipedia editors are required to sit and observe court proceedings and make determinations on content based on their outcomes is incorrect. Wikipedia editors are only required to base content off of what has been reported in reliable sources. Wikipedia editors are not empowered to make determinations independent of the sources. This is the fundamental concept that this and any similar discussion should be concerned with. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 20:40, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

The RM discussions regarding the use of "Death of...", "Killing of...", "Murder of..." or "Shooting of..." are confined to the use of these terms within each article's main title header, thus titles such as Columbine High School massacre, Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting or Zodiac Killer fall outside this discussion since those main headers carry their own unique forms.

"Death of...", on the other hand, is frequently nominated at RM because it is the catch-all form for historical deaths, such as Death of Edgar Allan Poe or Death of Ludwig van Beethoven as well as those under Category:Deaths in custody, those under Category:Deaths by firearm in the United States, those under Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in the United States or used in instances where the cause of death could not be determined, but may be homicide.

A number of such main headers are inconsistent and decided on an ad hoc basis. Three law enforcement "Killing of..." to "Shooting of..." RMs submitted on December 2, 2019 — Killing of Sergio Hernandez Guereca → Shooting of Sergio Hernandez Guereca, Killing of Patrick Harmon → Shooting of Patrick Harmon and Killing of Atatiana Jefferson → Shooting of Atatiana Jefferson — were decided in different ways. The first discussion had four participants and was moved to Hernandez v. Mesa per suggestion by one of them; the second attracted only a single participant and was moved per nomination; and the third managed three participants, one of whom objected to the move, resulting in a closing of "no consensus" and retention of "Killing of..."

Each case thus presents its own circumstances — when the perpetrator is actually accused of murder and tried on that charge, such as in the case of O. J. Simpson murder case or Murder of Deborah Gardner where the proposed nomination Murder of Deborah Gardner → Killing of Deborah Gardner did not succeed because the perpetrator, Dennis Priven, was tried on the charge of murder, then the term "murder" remains in Wikipedia's main header even if the perpetrator is not convicted. On the other hand, despite proposed moves of Death of JonBenét Ramsey to either Murder of JonBenét Ramsey or at least Killing of JonBenét Ramsey, it remains at "Death of..." —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:32, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

The argument that WP:OSE doesn't prevail over the basic principle that we are to go by what reliable sources have reported. The different pages you cited have different backgrounds. In some cases, it's not clear that the death was a murder, and that lack of clarity is reflected in the sources. "Killing" is a more vague term than "murder," so where the sources use the word "murder" we should defer to that. The term "murder" describes the nature of the subject's death, not the outcome of a suspect's legal case. There is unanimity among the sources that Tessa Majors was murdered. It has nothing to do with whether or not a particular individual has been convicted. Any assertion that we should depend on some vague notion of a "judicial determination" or "conviction" misses the point. Thanks. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 00:22, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

I agree with the points made by Wikieditor19920. Now, back to the comments by User:Roman Spinner ... I will make two points. Point One: I said that in "close call" cases or "gray area" cases (typically, police shootings, for example), we should use "killing" or "death" or "homicide", and not "murder". And Point Two: I do not see the distinction that you see between a Wikipedia article name and Wikipedia article content. So, please clarify. We can call the Zodiac Killer victims as "murder victims". Not in the title, but in the article. We can call the Black Dahlia a murder victim. Not in the title, but in the article. What's the difference? Wikipedia reports information and content. What is the "distinction" if we call (or do not call) something a "murder" in the title, versus in the article content? So, again, this goes back to one of my original questions: which was ... What would be the "rationale" of requiring a court conviction for Wikipedia to label something as a "murder"? ... whether in an article title or in an article's content ...? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:16, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support - Alternatively support "Killing of Tessa Majors" ^added - Murder is a legal term and there has been no finding by a court. Until then, it is a homicide. Looking through the sources, they say there have been charges of murder -- not a murder. A judge said there was probable cause and charges of murder could proceed. He did not say it was a murder. We can say that the NYPD calls it a murder. But, they aren't the courts. How do we know it won't be adjudged manslaughter? O3000 (talk) 12:40, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

As I pointed out above ... under your theory, Nicole Simpson was never murdered then ... the Black Dahlia was never murdered then ... the victims of the Zodiac Killer were never murdered then ... correct? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 13:17, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Well, if you want to bring up examples -- Cameron Todd Willingham. In 1992, Willingham was convicted of arson murder in Texas. He was believed to have intentionally set a fire that killed his three kids. In 2004, he was put to death. Unfortunately, the Texas Forensic Science Commission later found that the evidence was misinterpreted, and they concluded that none of the evidence used against Willingham was valid. As it turns out, the fire really was accidental. But, let's not play that game. Murder has a definition and that definition has not been met. I assume that's why the RS I looked at do not use "murder" in their own voice. As someone else pointed out, we use RS. We can say that the NYPD call it a murder. We should not use Wikivoice. O3000 (talk) 13:42, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Two points. (1.) You did not specifically answer my specific question. So, I will repeat it here. As I pointed out above ... under your theory, Nicole Simpson was never murdered then ... the Black Dahlia was never murdered then ... the victims of the Zodiac Killer were never murdered then ... correct? (2.) I love the Todd Willingham example. I don't think you realize that it supports my position and refutes your position. You say that we can call an act a "murder" only if there is a murder conviction in court. OK, in the case of Willigham, we have a murder conviction in court. Therefore, it's a murder. That's by your own definition, not mine. Which -- again -- points to the fact that a death by murder and a murder conviction are two different things. We go by reliable sources, not by "court findings". Your example about Willingham makes my point for me ... and it only weakens your own argument. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 14:49, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

1.) It’s not my theory. It’s the definition. 2.) I’m talking about this article on this article TP. I’m not going to dissect every use of the word. 3.) Under Wikipedia guidelines, we could have called Todd Willingham a murderer after his conviction and before his exoneration, because the courts ruled he was a murderer. Errors are made and WP would have had to fix this after it was ruled accidental. Mistakes are made. That’s why an encyclopedia should be careful, and even then can make mistakes. 4.) It is not my definition. It is the definition. 5.) Wikipedia is not about truth. It is about WP:V. 6.) I have looked over the cites and it appears to me that most avoid calling this a murder, but quote the family and NYPD using the word. If they avoid using it in their voice, we should avoid using it in our voice. We know that the coroner has ruled this a homicide. But, homicide does not mean murder. That’s a legal term. We can say that the NYPD called it a murder. Fortunately, the police are not yet judge and jury in the US. O3000 (talk) 15:12, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Of course, you are side-stepping my very important and very relevant examples. You can say "we are only talking about Tessa Majors right now and not any other cases". (But, then, you yourself bring up another case, the Willingham case?) Wikipedia articles do not exist in a vacuum ... they exist within the entire encyclopedia, which is the collection of the other millions of articles within the same encyclopedia. Also, under your theory, the "courts" (judges and juries) are the only reliable sources? While police, investigating authorities, news outlets, and the media are not? In any event, I see a lot of "oppose" above and very few "support". (Actually, only one "support vote" ... yours.) So, perhaps yours is the weaker and less persuasive argument? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:26, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

I’m rather surprised at your arguments. Do you really think that the number of oppose vs. support !votes in three days (or any number) is the way we evaluate the strength of an argument? Do you really think WP:OTHERCONTENT is a good argument? Did I say anything like only judges and juries are the only reliable sources? I said that they rule on convictions and murder is a legal term. Only judges, juries, and in the case of pardons, governors and presidents can rule on a murder. Police and prosecutors can accuse – they cannot convict. Even coroners only use the term homicide, which is not necessarily a murder. In any case, I said that we go by RS. Police are not RS. Actual reliable secondary sources are avoiding using the word murder in their own voices. O3000 (talk) 15:37, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Please do not change your text after a response without flagging it as a change. No, I am not the only support !vote (as if that mattered). One editor supported "Murder of Tessa Majors → Killing of Tessa Majors", and this survey is young. O3000 (talk) 15:48, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps, we were both typing our responses at the same time, in real time ... no? And we both hit "enter" at the same time ... or a fraction of a second later ...? Need I explain that to you? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:51, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

The word "murder" has many, many, many different meanings. One is the common, everyday, vernacular meaning. Like, for example, what a dictionary might offer. And, on top of that, there are many different "legal" definitions ... which, by the way, would be 50 (plus) different legal definitions in the 50 USA states. There is not "one" definition of the word "murder". Another point: I am not sure why you are so "stuck" on the necessity of a conviction? And, of course, you side-stepped my questions about calling the Black Dahlia and Nicole Simpson and the Zodiac Killer as "murder cases" (when there were no convictions). And, finally, yeah ... I do believe that when an overwhelming number of votes are "oppose" (and very few --- only one, yours) are "support" ... yes, that does say something. Does it not? That's the whole reason we have these discussions. To get the opinions of many people. If the vast majority agree, that is called "consensus". So -- to answer your question -- Do you really think that the number of oppose vs. support !votes in three days (or any number) is the way we evaluate the strength of an argument? ... my answer is "yes, absolutely". That's the very reason we are talking on this Talk Page. To see what many people think. No? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:46, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

And is it your claim that reliable sources are not calling this a murder? Really? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:54, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm surprised you have 80,000 edits and don't know this is WP:NOTDEMOCRACY. And no, I am not the sole support for a change. As for the meaning of murder, you might look at our article: Murder. WP is not RS, but the article has many cites. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human with malice aforethought. How do we know without a ruling that this was murder and not manslaughter? What is wrong with using the word killing which makes no assumptions and is easily supported by RS? O3000 (talk) 15:55, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

So, I will ask this for the tenth time ... and you will ignore / side-step it for the tenth time. Under your "theory" (for lack of a better word) ... we should go back and edit all references to "murder" when we talk about the Black Dahlia case ... the Nicole Simpson case ... the Columbine High School case .... etc.? Yes? That makes "sense" to you? Again -- after all -- there were no convictions in those cases -- and many others that I can cite. (For example, Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German, etc., etc., etc.) And, according to you, the "court conviction" is the requirement ... yes? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:00, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

And why are you going on about "democracy"? I know how consensus works. Yes. When a lot of people opine "X", and very few people opine "Y" ... then the consensus is "X", not "Y". That's the very definition of consensus. Not sure why you are going on and on about votes, and democracy, etc. I know how consensus works, yes, if that is your question. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:06, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

So, I will ask this for the tenth time So, you are admitting to WP:BLUDGEON. I gave my answer to not commenting on OTHERSTUFF, although I think time should be taken to review those cases. Not sure why you are going on and on about votes That's humorous considering you just said you asked something for the tenth time and I have not been in the least repetitive. And no, that is not how a request for move works. I don't expect a substantive answer from you, of course. I have made my !vote, given my reasons, and you are now simply attacking. I'm done unless someone has a new argument. O3000 (talk) 16:16, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. The New York Times writes of the "Tessa Majors Murder". NBC News writes "Teen Wanted in Tessa Majors Murder Is Found". Wikipedia is expected to adhere to the language used by sources. Bus stop (talk) 16:27, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Previous moves

The following shows all of the previous moves of this article:

• At 17:00, 20 December 2019, Enwebb moved the article from Death of Tessa Majors to Murder of Tessa Majors with conventions for the reason.
• At 23:36, 25 December 2019, WWGB moved the article from Murder of Tessa Majors to Death of Tessa Majors with no judicial finding of murder for the reason.
• At 23:51, 2 January 2020, Wikieditor19920 moved the article from Death of Tessa Majors to Murder of Tessa Majors with Was not a "death," we know it was a murder. Pending criminal case regarding who was responsible is not a reason to change. for the reason.
• At 00:00, 3 January 2020, WWGB moved the article from Murder of Tessa Majors to Death of Tessa Majors with contested page move, no-one has been convicted, please start a page move discussion for the reason.
• At 03:10, 3 January 2020, Wikieditor19920 moved the article from Death of Tessa Majors to Murder of Tessa Majors with Stop move-warring. The sources describe a murder. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/02/nyregion/tessa-majors-suspect-barnard-stabbing.html. A "conviction" is not required. for the reason.

GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 06:08, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Thought I recalled doing it myself but someone else performed the move. A sensible and obvious choice. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 06:15, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Picture

Should we upload a picture of Tessa? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LaraGingerbread (talk • contribs) 00:59, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

I'd say "yes". Good idea. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:33, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

I like the one they used here. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/teen-wanted-connection-barnard-student-tessa-majors-murder-located-n1107376 I don't know how to upload pics to Wiki, however. Does someone else want to find one and upload it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LaraGingerbread (talk • contribs) 20:10, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

I don't know all of the "ins and outs" of how photos work on Wikipedia. Specifically, I don't know how to upload them, either. And I also don't know about the copyright issues, etc., as to whether or not a photo is available to be posted here. I will leave that to another editor. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 14:44, 5 January 2020 (UTC)