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old talk

The vfd entry seems to have gone missing from that page. Thue 13:15, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It's still there; second one on June 2. - Hephaestos|§ 14:27, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I was confused too - it looked as though it had disapeared - I think the link on the article page got de-linked from the vfd page somehow. Mark Richards 15:59, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Pragmatic Ethics

While the connection is... tangible... it seems like a bit of a reach to me. Are there any proper sources out there that it can be linked to? 98.219.192.79 (talk) 04:03, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A book: "The Gadfly"

There is a novel by Ethel Lilian Voynich named "The Gadfly" (and at least two Russian films).

Do you think that this is the same meaning of the word?

--217.237.151.171 16:22, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

whose trial?

I thought Socrates was put on trial, not Plato:

During his defence when on trial for his life, Plato wrote that Socrates pointed out that dissent,

--MarSch 14:35, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

@MarSch: Looks like this has been fixed by the time I read the article. Currently reads:

Socrates

The term "gadfly" (Greek: μύωψ, mýops[1]) was used by Plato in the Apology[2] to describe Socrates's relationship of uncomfortable goad to the Athenian political scene, which he compared to a slow and dimwitted horse.

During his defense when on trial for his life, Socrates, according to Plato's writings, pointed out that dissent, like the gadfly, was easy to swat, but the cost to society of silencing individuals who were irritating could be very high: "If you kill a man like me, you will injure yourselves more than you will injure me" because his role was that of a gadfly, "to sting people and whip them into a fury, all in the service of truth." This may have been one of the earliest descriptions of gadfly ethics.

Ken K. Smith (a.k.a. Thin Smek) (talk) 02:44, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! It seems to have been clarified indeed. --MarSch (talk) 09:13, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

negative?

It was my impression that social gadfly is used usually in a negative context, it can be argued that they are really positive, but I thought that people generally used the term as an insult.

Socrates is speaking to a court of full of his peers. Though many of his peers had mixed thoughts as to what the verdict may be, Socrates was widely hated by the judicial system, government, and official political body as a whole. Socrates was aware of this, and sought to mock the government (just read the ending. In ancient greece, the criminal was given the chance to state what he felt his punishment should be. Judges suggested death. Socrates suggested that the government subsidize the rest of his life for the work he had done in improving ancient greek society), and demonstrate the faultiness of their claims. So by calling himself a gadfly, he makes reference to negative perspective suffered by the judicial and political system, but seeing as how his crimes were no where near as immoral as the courts (murdering an innocent), socrates attempts to explain his actions through a comparison that will be missed by the court but heard by the jury. 75.85.172.223 (talk) 03:23, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

positive:

For a philosopher, being called a Gadfly could be deemed as a compliment. Being compared to Socrates would be in this sense, positive. Creating a stir in a political sheme would imply some type of positive effects. Noam Chomsky and Micheal Moore could be deemed as Gadflies. They both are a "pain in the butt" per se as a Gadfly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gadfly62 (talk • contribs) 01:35, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Misquoting Plato

In the article, Plato's Apology of Socrates is quoted: "If you kill a man like me, you will injure yourselves more than you will injure me." That's clearly taken from Apology 30c[1]. But, then, right after this in the article, there is another quotation: "to sting people and whip them into a fury, all in the service of truth." It's not so clear where this is taken from. It looks more like an attempt to paraphrase rather than quote Apology 30e-31a[2], where Socrates actually uses the gadfly-metaphor. But he doesn't mention the "service of truth" in this passage. Isokrates 20:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The only place I've found this quote is in an autobiography of Oppenheimer, and I wonder if it could have been the slogan of the Journal of a Harvard Society around 1922. See this : https://books.google.ca/books?id=FE6NDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=to+sting+people+and+whip+them+into+a+fury,+all+in+the+service+of+truth&source=bl&ots=OSnvRfp9Rr&sig=7Y1QynEmj-_vSMeqPl9JII8Dyt8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn4oHPsv3dAhUp1lkKHT23AEcQ6AEwDHoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=to%20sting%20people%20and%20whip%20them%20into%20a%20fury%2C%20all%20in%20the%20service%20of%20truth&f=false --Niespika (talk) 03:09, 11 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Editing Jeremiah

I reworded the information regarding the book of Jeremiah. I'm not looking to upset anybody or turn this valid quote into a religious discussion. Describing him as a "prophet" and claiming the words were written before the trial of Socrates is POV. People of different faith would not necessarily see this as appropriate, and it's not relevant to the article.

I added the specific verse the quote is taken from (Biblegateway.com allows searching of multiple translations and interpretations of the bible) if anybody is interested. (wasn't signed in, redoing sig)--Legomancer (talk) 07:25, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It should be noted that the word translated as "gadfly" is unclear (in the original Hebrew), and that this translation is anything but agreed on universally. -- 07:22, 29 May 2014‎ 79.176.158.115

Article name

I've moved the article to Social gadfly, because parenthesizing an adjective is weird. Usually you disambiguate by adding category nouns in parenthesis. On the other hand, I'm not sure if it shouldn't perhaps be Gadfly (philosophy), being that the term comes from Plato. Reinis^talk 12:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Social gadfly serves well to counter the conformity standard in social studies. That article discusses normative influence, with a nod to minority influence, which is where the gadfly fits.Rgdboer (talk) 02:10, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

exact match content

exact match content: p.81 The Socratic Classroom - Sarah Davey Chesters (13 September 2012) (& p.81)

to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Social_gadfly&oldid=472124530 20:59, 19 January 2012
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Social_gadfly&oldid=408058215 18:32, 15 January 2011
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Social_gadfly&oldid=350088052 15 March 2010
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Social_gadfly&oldid=267360274 07:20, 30 January 2009
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Social_gadfly&oldid=183179940 14:53, 9 January 2008

05:14, 25 December 2019‎ (→ 22:45, 15 January 2020‎), the latter is vandalism

Diametakomisi (talk) 21:15, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

moved content of 21:17, 28 January 2020

During his defense when on trial for his life, Socrates, according to Plato's writings, pointed out that dissent, like the gadfly, was easy to swat, but the cost to society of silencing individuals who were irritating could be very high: "If you kill a man like me, you will injure yourselves more than you will injure me" because his role was that of a gadfly,

This may have been one of the earliest descriptions of pragmatic ethics.

Diametakomisi (talk) 21:18, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(content of 21:18, 28 January 2020 deleted because unverifiable (online, using Google only) holding 21:35, 28 January 2020 (UTC) in this heading to be true @ Diametakomisi (talk) 21:38, 28 January 2020 (UTC))[reply]

(link (descriptor has two words) shown in 21:18, 28 January 2020 (under this heading), changed because the destinated article is a no-match in the first element (word) of the deleted descriptor (the changed link is shown at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Social_gadfly&oldid=472124530 is an exact match destinate : descriptor @ (t=) Diametakomisi (talk) 21:45, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(please see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ASocial_gadfly#Misquoting_Plato)

Diametakomisi (talk) 21:21, 28 January 2020 (UTC) (minor change made after signature)[reply]

the former quote is found in translated "by Benjamin Jowett" Agora Publications, Inc., 2005 p.37

Diametakomisi (talk) 21:29, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

the latter to p.3 (Google), p.1 Google books

Diametakomisi (talk) 21:35, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Essay on Socrates and gadflies

User:Diametakomisi, your recent additions to the article contain a great deal of interesting information, but I'm afraid aren't really suitable for Wikipedia. They are more like an essay than a WP article. I think there is some really great information that we should integrate into the article -- notably Kitchell's characterization of the role of the horsefly -- but there is a lot more that is not really relevant, for example, the exact entomological characterization or the history of the word "gad". It is also peculiar that you cite the word as μύωπός, which is an inflected form with a second accent, where the citation form is μύωψ -- it really isn't necessary to say that the nominative isn't found in the original, for example. Discussing what a metaphor is in detail again doesn't belong in this article. Finally, we don't include searches and other background in articles. --Macrakis (talk) 16:31, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 109: / Line 109: @@
 [[User:Diametakomisi|Diametakomisi]] ([[User talk:Diametakomisi|talk]]) 21:35, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
+==Essay on Socrates and gadflies==
+[[User:Diametakomisi]], your [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Social_gadfly&type=revision&diff=938499786&oldid=935974210 recent additions] to the article contain a great deal of interesting information, but I'm afraid aren't really suitable for Wikipedia. They are more like an essay than a WP article. I think there is some really great information that we should integrate into the article -- notably Kitchell's characterization of the role of the horsefly -- but there is a lot more that is not really relevant, for example, the exact entomological characterization or the history of the word "gad". It is also peculiar that you cite the word as μύωπός, which is an inflected form with a second accent, where the citation form is μύωψ -- it really isn't necessary to say that the nominative isn't found in the original, for example. Discussing what a metaphor is in detail again doesn't belong in this article. Finally, we don't include searches and other background in articles. --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 16:31, 31 January 2020 (UTC)