Talk:Transubstantiation

Needs a scientific view

As much as it's a theological topic, this article needs a science section to highlight the fact that this transformation has never been detected in controlled conditions, and what (if any) attempts have been made over the years. 203.59.80.62 (talk) 09:57, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

You wil never find any Trans-form-ation because the article deals with Tran-substantia-tion. Please note that the philosophical difference between form (i.e. accidends), and substantia is the core of the doctrine of Transubstantiation. The doctrine of Transubstantiation dont deal with what is related with the form, which can be physically experimented. So there is no reason to mention a scientific fact that dont applies here. A ntv (talk) 10:18, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

According to Church teaching, the transformation cannot be detected in any conditions whatever, controlled or otherwise. Detection of any change in the appearances would contradict the teaching. Esoglou (talk) 10:23, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Any anecdotes about controlled experiments, if any, might be amusing. However, since it's a theological topic, it's entirely about a belief -- and not science. The very idea of transsubstantiation is 0.00% (zero per cent) scientific, and so it would be a rather pointless addition to the article. To paraphrase user "A ntv" above: science doesn't have an answer to transsubstantiation because it is pure BS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.44.0.4 (talk) 21:52, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

It's curious that the above editor doesn't advert to the Mind-body problem. Can anyone say absolutely that the human mind is pure BS since the only evidence for it scientifically is the bio-electical activity of brain cells interpreted (by many) as the effect of a human mind on the individual human brain? That's why some people say there is no mind, but only brain activity: no mind has ever been detected in controlled conditions. In any case, observing this debate from a distance, I would say there is as much evidence for the existence of the human mind as there is for the transubstantiated presence or reality of Jesus Christ himself in the form of bread and wine. Neither of these seems to be a problem for Physics but for Metaphysics (you can't measure gravimetric intensity with a demographic study!—wrong tool!). Personally, I believe in the reality of the human mind apart from the human brain (Out-of-body experience and Near-death experience). I better quit here—don't get me started! It's amazing how much you learn from years of proof-reading other peoples' stuff. --LittleOldManRetired (talk) 23:05, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Apparently LittleOldManRetired's views on the human mind got him blocked. --Λeternus ^(talk) 09:18, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

This dialogue should be edited into the article. I was reading the article, I understood nothing. I read this paragraph in the talk pages,now I understand what is the difference between catholics and protestants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.207.43.94 (talk) 17:59, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Calvinism clarification

Many of the wikipedia articles dealing with sacramental theology in the Calvinist or Reformed tradition often quote, as in this article, the "merely symbolic" meaning of the sacramental elements, as if this represented a demotion of the Eucharist in importance from Roman Catholic and Lutheran teachings. In describing Calvin's--and reformed Protestant (including Anglican)--attacks on transubstantiation, we should be careful not to understate the absolutely central importance of the Eucharist in reformed protestant worship. Not merely symbolic, but as a spiritual (as opposed to material) vehicle for the transmission of Grace, is a more accurate description of Calvinist understandings of the communion. Moreover, in the Genevan order of church discipline, which influenced the Reformation in France, the Netherlands, Scotland and England (particularly among Puritans), the Eucharist stood at the center of Calvinist church discipline: with access to or exclusion from the Lords Supper marking the boundaries of the "visible" church of saints. Communion was a very serious matter among Calvinists--even if Christ's presence was spiritual (or symbolic) as opposed to material--with those "unworthy" expected to abstain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.206.37.234 (talk) 15:04, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

The "Figure of Speech" Argument

Knowing how Wikipedia dislikes original research, I wonder if there is any textual source for the following argument against Transubstantiation: that the bread and wine being Christ's body and blood is simply a figure of speech. Ancient Hebrew was very fond of high-flown metaphors and poetic exaggeration, as evidenced for example in Psalm 22:6:- But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. Might not the same kind of figure of speech be intended in Mark 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body? I don't know if it is original research or not. I certainly haven't encountered it anywhere else, despite looking. Can anyone else help? Nuttyskin (talk) 13:12, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The problem is not the lack of sources on this, it is the fact that there are literally a thousand years' worth of highly erudite sources. Very difficult to absorb and summarize without spending a lifetime of scholarly expertise. Which is why this article has to rely on good-quality tertiary literature. --dab (𒁳) 09:28, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Advertisements

This page currently has a number of pop out ad when you hover over such words as 'body' or ‘accidents.’ Given that Wikipedia is intended to be free of advertisements I would think it sensible that they be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.229.14 (talk) 11:23, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

There are no ads, and there have never been any. The only thing you should see are what article names the links are to (usually the same word as the link, occasionally with some minor differences). If you are seeing something else, you likely have malware on your computer so you may want to look in to that if it is still occuring this many months later. Nil Einne (talk) 16:33, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Insistence on equating human being with soul

Most strands of pre-Christian Greek philosophy saw the human person as a soul imprisoned, as it were, in a body in line with the saying σῶμα σῆμα. The same idea is attributed to Descartes. But for the Catholic Christian view, the view that we are concerned with in an article on transubstantiation, see Catechism of the Catholic Church, 362-364. See also Soul-Body Dualism? Or Soul-Body Unity? or The unity of the body and soul. Esoglou (talk) 07:40, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Consider: Is the soul the person? does the material body provide access to the soul, to the person? does the death of the body extinguish the whole person, leaving an immaterial remnant that is not quite a person? does the matter composing food remain food after it has been incorporated into the body of a person? and is it the soul, or is it the physical matter, or is it the integration of both, that constitutes a fully human person? I am persuaded per Catholic teaching on sacred scripture that physical matter is not determinative in the existence of the human person, but the breath of God, the living soul is—that we human persons are each in essence spirit, not body, souls intended to inform matter which becomes human tissue only after being incorporated by our souls into our human bodies. Hence, the link "someone" to "Soul#InChristianity". As food becomes the body and blood of someone, the Eucharistic elements become the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

I respect your point of view vis-a-vis encyclopedic approach vs. Catholic catechetical emphasis, and have no objection to leaving "someone" sans link to "Soul#InChristianity" ( in other words, I don't take the revert personally.) This said, and leaving the debate, I have read your submitted links, above, and suggest perhaps those particular links might be usefully incorporated in the existing footnote already appended to "person" at the end of the paragraph (what do you think?). There is also already a link in that footnote to Soul (spirit) which in view of the present debate seems quite sufficient, so I fully agree to let the discussed sentence revert stand as is: "someone" without the link.

Enjoyed the exchange and agree with your revert as consistent with neutrality, and withdraw without further argument. I support you. --Espresso-con-pana (talk) 03:07, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't think the proposed addition to the end of the paragraph would be misleading, but neither do I think it would be helpful. Esoglou (talk) 07:52, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

They can always read 'em here. Pax Christi. --Espresso-con-pana (talk) 09:45, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Human beings "transubstantiated"?

When I cited James H. Dobbins and Dom Eugene Boylan, I could not remember any source that explicitly states that when the Christian becomes 'divinized' his/her subtance as a human being is transubstantiated or transmuted into the divine uncreated substance of God the Son the Word of the Father,

OR remember any authoritative source that explicitly states that when Christians receive Baptism and/or Communion their natural substance as creatures is by degrees, gradually, transubstantiated or transmuted into divine substance, making them divine, God, just as Jesus Christ is God, body, blood, soul, and divinity.

This would include as under the topic of the article "Transubstantiation" a specific section on the transubstantiation of human beings into divine beings, and go beyond limiting the discussion to only the debates about the transubstantiation of bread and wine into Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

This transubstantiating possibility is already implicit in the discussion in the article, but it is not specifically treated and discussed (it wouldn't have to be long—I think two or three sentences, with citations, would be good enough).

So if there are any authoritative sources explicitly stating the divinely effected transubstantiation or transmutation of created human beings, body, blood, soul and spirit, into divine beings, God, as official Christian Catholic doctrine, they should be cited in the article as being under the topic "Transubstantiation".

see also Alchemy#Relation to Hermeticism for a discussion of the spiritual transmutation of the base metal of the animal man into the pure gold of the son of God. This one could be a separate section.

In summary: Is there also a Catholic Christian transubstantiation of human beings into the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ the Son of God? If there is: Sources anyone? --Espresso-con-pana (talk) 17:35, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Transubstantiation in the Roman Catholic Religion refers to the Communion Host and Wine being changed to the body and blood of Christ at the time of the Consecration during the Mass and nothing else. Dobbs is a Protestant. See: http://www.ask.com/web?qsrc=1&o=2209&l=dir&q=roman+catholic+religion+transubstantiation and http://www.gotquestions.org/transubstantiation.html Mugginsx (talk) 18:16, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I suppose that these two authors were referring to theosis, that is a different issue of transubstatiation.A ntv (talk) 19:22, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

No, they were talking about transubstantiation, the only meaning of the word in the Roman Catholic faith. See also here http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm#section3 The Catholic Encyclopedia Mugginsx (talk) 19:33, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

In antiquity the concept of transubstantiation was not limited to the Eucharist, and speculation about the possibility of change of substance preceded Christianity in Plato and Plotinus—see Apotheosis.

James H. Dobbins is Catholic. "Dobbs" is nowhere referred to in the article or the footnotes.

The central topic of the article as presented by its title is actual "change of substance". The change of substance effected in the Eucharistic Consecration of the Mass by Jesus Christ himself through the priest is the most outstanding exemplification of the literal meaning and reality of "trans-substantia-tion".

So the term "transubstantiation" includes more than "the Communion Host and wine [sic] being changed into the body and blood of Christ at the time of the Consecration during the Mass." It is a fact that most readers will have heard the term used only in reference to the Sacrament, but this presents an encyclopedic "teaching" opportunity to broaden their knowledge.

In supportive response to the comment by Mugginsx, above, consider the possibility of prefacing the current lead sentence of the article with a very brief clarification such as I've outlined here, giving the literal meaning of Transubstantiation and usage of the term in antiquity. The next immediately following sentence would be the current lead: "In Roman Catholic theology..." with the article, as now, following.

So since substance is changed, according to Catholic doctrine, is there any documentation of Catholic doctrine stating that the substance of human beings is changed to divinity by the sacraments of the Church? Anyone? --Espresso-con-pana (talk) 21:49, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

No, Espresso. ("Con pana" puzzles me. Is it meant for "con panna", with cream? Or for "con pane", with bread?) This is just imaginative original research. The Catholic Church applies "transubstantiation" only to the change whereby bread and wine cease to be bread and wine (while the appearances of the bread and wine remain unaltered as a sacramental sign). Human beings do not by divinization cease to be human beings. Esoglou (talk) 08:58, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

The original question was not directed toward what the ancient Greeks or Romans thought, but what the meaning was in the Catholic Church. I addressed only the meaning for the Roman Catholic Church. I thought you were referring to Dr. James Dobson, sometimes nicknamed Dobbs. http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/cms_content?page=741888&sp=1025. My apologies. Mugginsx (talk) 11:48, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

"-pana" is a partial change of "panna (cream)", so "espresso coffee with whipped cream" my favorite beverage for celebrations and getting a lift—adoption of this form in my WP ID is like the inventive usages of other wikipedians, including "Esoglou" (does this have any orginary meaning in any language?)

RE: the Church's application of the philosophical term "transubstantiation": true, the Catholic Church applies "transubstantiation" only to the change whereby bread and wine cease to be bread and wine, but the title of the article is not specifically limited to Catholic theology on the Sacrament but is the more general philosophical term "transubstantiation" (itself applied by Philosophy to more possibilities than the Sacrament alone), a general term which the Council fathers adopted from the philosophical disciplines and limited to the Sacrament, so (per Charles Davis, cited in the article) the idea in Substance theory of trans- substantiation has a greater etymological history and current philosophical meaning than the particular use made of it by the Church, and goes beyond only the meaning for the Roman Catholic Church. Look at the history of the doctrine represented by the word "Trinity". If the more particularly ecclesiatical meaning limited to Catholic usage is the perceived intent of the article, then I would recommend a change of its title to "Transubstantiation (Christian)". And by the way, that would not exclude from inclusion the current criticisms of the doctrine featured in the article, so that much of it would not have to be changed. Another separate article "Transubstantiation (Philosophy)" is also possible, using the intro I have contributed as the entirety of the article.--Espresso-con-pana (talk) 17:05, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for satisfying my curiosity about "con pana", which you tell me is an alteration of "con panna" (with cream), in reference to your liking for coffee "con panna montata" (with whipped cream). In return, I must explain that Esoglou (Εσόγλου) is a Greek surname of Turkish origin, one of the many Turkish surnames ending in -oğlu (meaning "his son").

The section below is sufficient for discussing your - as far as I can tell - unsourced application of the word "transubstantiation" to Greek philosophy. Esoglou (talk) 20:09, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Heh!! Reminded me of The Lion King—"Ha-kuna matataa"—"con panna montata" --Espresso-con-pana (talk) 03:19, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Revert rebuttal

The new intro I placed in the article has no Original Research. Everything in it is from Charles Davis The Theology of Transubstantiation and the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: Substance. It does not rest primarily on the Wiktionary definition of "transubstantiation", "tran", "substantia", "-tion", which I have moved to a footnote and is simply there for the sake of clarification. (note: The Latin transsubstantiatio is also presented in the body of the article and it was not my contribution.) Everything not from those sources (although they include them) is already in the body of the article. (If the intro seems too long, there are other articles in WP which have even longer intros.) --Espresso-con-pana (talk) 16:17, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Source, please, for your opening phrase "Transubstantiation is a significant part of Substance theory" - the article on substance theory has no mention of that supposedly significant part.

I skip other questionable statements by you, and go straight to your claim that Greek philosophers had a concept of transubstantiation, of change from one substance to another. Wasn't their idea rather, as the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy says, that the individual substances are the subjects of properties and that they can gain or lose certain properties whilst themselves enduring? Surely those philosophers would have said that to speak of a change of substance, rather than of properties ("accidents"), was complete nonsense. So what is the source of your claim that those philosophers entertained the idea of "transubstantiation"? Esoglou (talk) 20:09, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Please let's keep this article into the boundaries of the common meaning of "transubstantiation". So any historical introduction about the "substancia" in the ancient philosophies, as well as any diversion on theosis or any fringe theory of a couple of almost unknown writers (even if Catholics) shall stay out from this article. So I strongly adverse the new intro which is is related to Substance theory but not on Transubstantiation. The Lead Section should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points (see WP:LEAD): when a reader looks for "Transubstantiation", he wants to read what exactly Transubstantiation, not it philosophic basis. So I support Esoglou in his revert of the new intro.A ntv (talk) 21:21, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I did not say the Philosophers treated of change of substance. Read it again. Aristotle's position on any substance is that it is the kind of thing that something is, and is not the same substance when the matter becomes something else, the matter of the substance of food becomes the matter of the substance of a human body and no longer is food so that the substance of the matter is not food but has become human. He does not explicitly say "the substance of X was changed." Nevertheless there is a change in what it is and he is describing a change of nature.

"Transubstantiation is a significant part of Substance theory". The article "Substance theory" links "Ontology", "Metaphysics", "Object (philosophy)", "Subject (philosophy)", "Property (philosophy)", "Intrinsic and extrinsic properties (philosophy)"—it has these statements: "Substance is a key concept in ontology and metaphysics"—"Ontology The study of being and existence; includes the definition and classification of entities, physical or mental, the nature of their properties, and the nature of change." Any possibility of change of substance is definitively part of the provenance of Substance theory. Links in WP articles are normally to facilitate further inquiry and include more detailed discussion of elements mentioned in an article, and are in that way indirectly made part of the article presentation of the topic it treats. Moreover, the cited sources outside of WP mentioned both "substance" (ousia) and "transubstantiation": Charles Davis and Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

The position that "it's not mentioned" in the article "Substance theory" is similar in kind to the position that "the doctrine of the Trinity is not Biblical because the word is not present in the text of Sacred Scripture." Any consideration of the possibility of any change in substances is key in discussions of the essential nature of substance and substances in Substance theory which is a key concept in ontology and metaphysics. --Espresso-con-pana (talk) 02:49, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

If you agree that your Greek-philosophy addition is not about alteration of substances leaving appearances unchanged, you can put it in some article that deals instead with substance or transformation (alteration of forms leaving substances unchanged). Esoglou (talk) 08:48, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Glass of water

When this occurred to me I started to laugh, so I came back. Half-seriously, now: What does the section "Conceptual Art" have to do with "Transubstantiation as specifically used in the Roman Catholic Church"? Really, guys! If "Substance theory" is off-base in this article, then the section "Conceptual Art" is out-of-the-ballpark-and-outside-the-city-limits-past-the-reservoir. I would really like to see it moved and made a separate WP stub article, with a link to "Transubstantiation".

If the artist is not in fact actually ridiculing the Church, then he is serious about exemplifying the theories of nihilism (e.g. Nietzche's Übermensch) regarding meaning. --Espresso-con-pana (talk) 04:46, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

You are right. Let's remove section "Conceptual Art". Wiki articles are not forum where anyone can go off-topic. A ntv (talk) 15:08, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't object. I only mention that removal of mention of this joke, which has been dignified by calling it "conceptual art", has been done and undone several times already. Esoglou (talk) 16:47, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Are you saying that it's vandalism? (uh-huh, yep) If so, then really should be dealt with.

No, I am not saying that the mention in Wikipedia of the artist's joke is vandalism. In view of what happened in the past when others removed the mention, I won't remove it myself. But I have no objection to its removal by anybody else. Esoglou (talk) 08:26, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I can not understand the reasoning here, so am reinstating the section.87.194.44.183 (talk) 11:34, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I also think that the art section should be expanded-possibly with material from http://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/weaving/articles/nb28_tns.pdf.87.194.44.183 (talk) 11:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Revert rebuttal (continued)

By the way (change of subject) would you guys agree with my earlier suggestion that I make the "Substance theory" section a separate article, leaving "Transubstantiation" dedicated (good word!) to the Eucharistic Consecration of the Divine Liturgy and the Mass? If you do agree, I won't see your response for awhile, maybe 8 weeks from now—but I'll look in again and see what you guys think—and if you would like to, you can go ahead and blank it (I can always retrieve the text from the current version by accessing the history of the article).

OR if one of you wants to go ahead and make the section a separate article without my participation, I wouldn't have any objection to that. ( 'course not, some laziness here!)

• * * Joyeux Noël, Felice Navidad, Pax Christi. (Til mid-February, then... --Espresso-con-pana (talk) 23:36, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Felice Natale (it), Feliz Navidad (es) to you also. You may certainly attempt to get your ideas about substance theory accepted in another article. But here it will have to be removed in much less than eight weeks, since it has nothing to do with transubstantiation (change to a different substance) rather than transformation (change to a different form or appearance). What you say ("go ahead and blank it") seems to indicate consent to its at least provisional removal. Esoglou (talk) 08:26, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

That's fine: You understood me perfectly! I see you appreciated my little linguistic joke... --Espresso-con-pana (talk) 10:16, 18 December 2012 (UTC) —(last minute edit before leaving the house. ...'Later!)

I like the article, trimmed it a little, glad to see someone else did already, but it could still use a bit more trimming (won't be me, though, I'm not fond of controversy and I'm just using this computer, so one-time 2¢ worth fwiw.) or maybe not.--63.153.237.239 (talk) 03:23, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Academics' sniper-range

I had to laugh this morning when I checked the article and saw my contribution last night was shot down today and replaced with superior material by Esoglou. From this I learned more exactly what is requested by tag "citations needed": not the scriptural text references but material exemplifying the particular interpretations of those scriptural texts. (You've been at this longer than I.) What was especially funny was the fact that the tag requesting citations was posted June 2011 and my contribution of last night was the trigger for the excellent citations contributed today (only took 20 months!!) If that's what it takes to prompt a solid response to a tag request, then in good faith with good will whenever the occasion happens to arise I'll happily send 'em up so they can be shot down and replaced with better stuff! Ready—Aim—"PULL!"—BAM! (instant improvement! —how 'bout That!) Wikipedia really is a team effort. --Espresso-con-pana (talk) 15:47, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

This is exactly how Wikipedia works. More articles are improved out of spite than from some internal motivation. --dab (𒁳) 09:32, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Request for clarification on 'accessible to senses' as it relates to the physical

In the first paragraph, there is a statement mentioning "all that is accessible to the senses (the appearances)" which I clarified with one added word to "the physical appearances". Esoglou has removed the word "physical" multiple times and has now made a request for citation with respect to the adjective physical.

That which is accessible to the senses is physical, as described in the first sentence in the wikipedia entry on sense, "Senses are physiological capacities of organisms that provide data for perception."

Rather than engage in an edit war, I would like other people to weigh in this issue to resolve it. Esoglou has been warned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Esoglou#Warning) about pushing POV before. 24.79.75.240 (talk) 15:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

All that is needed to get "physical" accepted in Wikipedia is a citation of a reliable source that says so, in place of a sourceless personal interpretation or synthesis. See WP:OR. Esoglou (talk) 18:23, 11 May 2013 (arch UTC)

@Esoglou - a google search produces so many reliable sources that your insistence on a source seems disingenous. 158.181.66.104 (talk) 22:26, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Another user has changed the word "physical" to "outward". I won't edit it back myself, but it does not seem like an improvement or clarification to me. The word "physical" implies "that which is objectively measurable in physical reality" and I believe it to be a more precise adjective than "outward". For comparison, think of the context (transubstantiation) and what is described by antonyms of these two adjectives, and you wind up with "non-physical appearances" and "inward appearances". The first still makes sense in the context of this topic, but the second doesn't because that adjective is not as tightly coupled to transubstantiation. Because we are talking about a difference in what is observable in physical reality (the appearances) but not in a non-observable spiritual reality (the transubstantiation), the word 'physical' (and non-physical) better describes transubstantiation than a vaguer, metaphorical, "outward" (and "inward"). 24.79.75.240 (talk) 23:46, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Just find an example of Catholic Church teaching that uses "physical" with regard to transubstantiation, and then insert the word along with the citation. Esoglou (talk) 07:53, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Grammar or bad citation

In the introduction it states: "What remains unaltered is also referred to as the "accidents" of the bread and wine,[9] but this term is not used in the official definition of the doctrine by the Council of Trent.[10]" Can someone please explain what 'this term' refers to. Does it refer to 'accidens/accidenta', 'panis' 'transubstantiation'? If it means 'accidents' then the statement is wrong: Canon 2: "if anyone says that in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Euchriast the substance of hte bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and denies that wonderful and singular change of the whole substance of the bread into the body and the whole substance of the wine into the blood, the appearances only of bread and wine remaining, which change the Catholic Church most aptly calls transubstantiation, let him be anathema." Thus I am going to change it in a few days unless someone objects.

Luther and consubstantiation: I have indeed seen Luther use words which in fact mean 'consubstantiation' in his writings on the Eucharist. Here is the source. The Large Catechism: The Sacrament of the Altar, article 8: Now, what is the sacrament of the altar.

8] Now, what is the Sacrament of the Altar? Answer: It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, in and under the bread and wine which we Christians are commanded by the Word of Christ to eat and to drink. 9] And as we have said of Baptism that it is not simple water, so here also we say the Sacrament is bread and wine, but not mere bread and wine, such as are ordinarily served at the table, but bread and wine comprehended in, and connected with, the Word of God. Here is an online edition of the Large Catechism: http://bookofconcord.org/lc-7-sacrament.php

"It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, in and under the bread and wine which..." You can argue that Luther does not use the word 'consubstantial'; however, he here includes the actual definition of consubstantial. You could also argue that Luther is inconsistent: just because he uses consubantial in the Large Catechism does not mean he actually believed 'consubstantial' to be the full expression of the mystery. Thus, the line should actually say something like this: since Luther uses various formulations to explain Christ's presence in the Eucharist; however, in certain places he uses a definition which others have understood to mean 'consubstantiation.' I will change this in a few days if no one objects.

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.214.133 (talk) 19:31, 12 June 2015 (UTC) 

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Conceptual art

I believe this section places undue weight on a single piece of art. I suggest this section be shortened or removed, ideally, or expanded to include other works, if any exist. Kafka Liz (talk) 16:32, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

• Better without the section IMO...Modernist (talk) 00:35, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Further cleanup and focus

The article is still terrible because it tries to be too much simultaneously. The main articles are Eucharistic theology and Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. This page should be treated as a very technical sub-topic of these more general articles (which are already to be treated as technical sub-topics on Christian theology and church history).

Look, articles on very technical topics do not need a general introduction to the field. If you try this, the actual content gets buried in the introduction. There is good reason why the article on Faddeev–Popov ghost does not contain a general introduction to QFT, prefaced with a general introduction to 1920s quantum mechanics and its interpretation, prefaced with a still more general introduction to the scientific method, plus a general introduction to the cultural depiction of ghosts.

Similarly, this page is first and foremost a technical sub-page to the section at Real_presence_of_Christ_in_the_Eucharist#Catholic:_Transubstantiation. Readers looking for background or context should just be sent upstream to the more general articles. --dab (𒁳) 09:38, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

That said, I do think the page at Metousiosis should be merged into this page, because:

• it is itself in need of cleanup for tighter and more coherent arrangement of the salient points
• it is about the reaction of Greek orthodoxy to the Catholic doctrine in the 17th century, and it can just sit in a "Reception in Greek Orthodoxy" (note how the topic is not about Eastern Orthodoxs, in spite of appearances, but about Greek Orthodox theology in the 17th century; all the article has to say about "non-Greek Eastern Orthodoxy" is "does not apply").

--dab (𒁳) 09:43, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree with this wholeheartedly, save having no opinion at this point on the matter of Metousiosis page. In particular, I think the material cited from Justin Martyr does not belong here, because on the face of it he is advocating consubstantiation, not transubstantiation, despite mental gymnastics to argue differently in some sources. Further, the introduction is more than long enough without that material. I'll try to keep an eye here, and if there is no response in a few days I'll remove those parts, relocating them to the Consubstantiation article where they are more appropriate. Dismalscholar (talk) 16:56, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Self-published theory

I think this subsection should be deleted. The information was inserted as the only edit made by someone logged in as "Pius XIII" and was later revised by someone (the same?) in Virginia, who, though giving the book's ISBN as that of the self-publishing firm CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform, indicated as publishers Prints of Peace of Stafford, Virginia. To me the whole affair smells of spamming. Lúnasa (talk) 08:02, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

• agree with removal[1] --dab (𒁳) 10:21, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Dulles (2005)

This article (Dulles 2005) is so dumbed down as to be factually wrong and I would argue against referencing it.

I am sure Dulles knows about the topic, but clearly this article is written for a "general audience", and the author seems to assume that this equates to "mentally children". Therefore, he tries to argue that "substance" is somehow not used in the Aristotelian sense, apparently because this might scare the unitiated(?)

Trent tells us that Christ’s presence in the sacrament is substantial. The word "substance" as here used is not a technical philosophical term, such as might be found in the philosophy of Aristotle. It was used in the early Middle Ages long before the works of Aristotle were current.

This is a joke. The verb sub-stare in Latin meant "to hold firm under attack". The noun substantia in classical Latin only ever came to mean "stuff something is made from" because it translated Aristotelian ousia. The "early Middle Ages" have nothing to do with this.

Dulles also has perfectly true statements, such as

[according to Catholic dogma,] "The change that occurs in the consecration at Mass is sui generis. It does not fit into the categories of Aristotle, who believed that every substantial change involved a change in the appearances or what he called accidents."

This is pretty much a paraphrase of the CCC, which is in turn a direct quote from the Council of Trent. So, yes, but we don't need invoke Dulles (2005) for that.

Here is what I gather is going on: It is true that the notion of transubstantiation makes use of Aristotelian terminology in order to explain a [claimed] unique and special case that was not forseen by Aristotle. It is, so to speak, a "hack" of Aristotelian philosophy in order to accommodate the Christian sacrament. The problem is that it is designed to make immediate and perfect sense to somebody who thinks in Aristotelian terms (who might still either accept or reject it, but at least he will understand the proposition) but it will be opaque to somebody unfamiliar with Aristotelian terminology. The explanation was indeed coined for the benefit of people with familiar with Aristotelianism, but now Aristotelian thought has gone out of fashion, Catholics are stuck with it and need to explain Aristotelianism first before their explanation can begin to make sense to modern people. --dab (𒁳) 10:40, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

While I disagree with this presentation of what Dulles says as being at the same time dumbing down and opaque, I see no need to defend it. It is not essential to an exposition of the view of the Catholic Church (what this section is about). In view of the reaction to it evidenced here, I have simply deleted it.

I have also deleted the reference to Thomas Aquinas presented as if CCC 1374 cited him in relation to transubstantiation. This is false: he is referred to instead in relation to what he says in answer to the question "Whether the Eucharist is necessary for salvation?": "the perfection/consummation of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend". Athmharbh (talk) 14:59, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

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First paragraph is ironic

I find it humorous, myself. But those who believe in the concept might find it offensive.

This is how it reads now:

"Transubstantiation (Latin: transsubstantiatio; Greek: μετουσίωσις metousiosis) is, according to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, a cooking style invented by Emeril Lagasse in which the bread and wine offered in the sacrifice of the sacrament of the Eucharist are kicked up a notch during the Mass, and become, in reality, the body and blood of Jesus Christ."

SiteReader137 (talk) 00:26, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

NPOV ?

This article seems to suffer from various failures of NPOV, in different directions, for example terms such as 'this is all the more ironic because…", and "What Luther thus called a "sacramental union" is often erroneously called consubstantiation by non-Lutherans." Also, the series of citations from church fathers are presented as supporting transubstantiation: "The belief that the bread and wine that form the matter of the Eucharist become the body and blood of Christ appears to have been widespread from an early date, with early Christian writers referring to them as his body and the blood. They speak of them as the same flesh and blood which suffered and died on the cross." However, this support is only acknowledged in Roman Catholic theology. Those who do not believe in transubstantiation treat them as symbolic readings.

Given that this particular issue has been the casus belli of major wars, I feel the article could do with cleaning up to represent a consistent NPOV, rather than the POV of (respectively) Roman Catholics, Lutherans and Orthodox in the various parts.Martin Turner (talk) 22:54, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

This article ridiculously biased and manipulated by traditional Catholics, who add entire passages of opinion about Patristics without citation or scholarly opinion. Most frustrating. 86.145.242.127 (talk) 22:13, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

New addition

• The formatting was a bit off, the reference replaced the {{shortdesc}} at article top.
• The passage used first-person plural while encyclopedic language uses third-person and refrains from addressing the reader.
• "Transformed" is problematic. As we can see from the title of the article, the Eucharist is transubstantiated, while the form remains the same, so "transforming" is not useful terminology here.
• Minor point about the mystical body of Christ (the Church) being distinct from the Real Presence: Body of Christ in the Eucharist. Elizium23 (talk) 23:02, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
  • The whole post-Vatican II section is pointing out what is now regarded as the essential purpose of the transubstantiation itself, our transformation. Jzsj (talk) 23:20, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

You didn't address any of my points and your revert ruined the formatting again. Elizium23 (talk) 23:15, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

• Please note carefully that I did address two of your points. The formatting maybe you can help me with. Jzsj (talk) 23:20, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

I have edited and reworded it as hopefully an improvement. I am reading the Jesuit publication you cited. I cannot help but notice that the author is quite critical of many elements of the Mass. I am also having a hard time swallowing the idea of "transforming into the body of Christ". Is this not what baptism does? The Eucharist strengthens our communal bonds, it perfects and nourishes our souls, and gives us a taste of Heaven, but it feels like this is saying that someone who is not of the body of Christ can transform into someone who is of the body of Christ, by reception of the Eucharist. That's weird. Elizium23 (talk) 23:36, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

To be other Christs in the world today is not effected just by Baptism but by constant growth in the Christian life, our lifelong transformation, what Pope Francis, along with previous popes, is constantly calling us to. Jzsj (talk) 23:46, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Oh, I see, this Jesuit publication has a familiar byline. Can it be that you are citing yourself? Elizium23 (talk) 23:48, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

To be an alter Christus is the charism of Holy Orders, and specifically sacerdotal ordination. I don't aspire to be an "other Christ". I am a layman. Elizium23 (talk) 23:49, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Pope Francis would call that clericalism, priesthood is a function not a superior state of life. All are challenged by Christ to the same perfection: "Be you perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." But I won't object to your inserting your perspective in articles, since you will find Catholic sources that agree with you. Jzsj (talk) 04:08, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Jzsj is, I suppose, entitled to cite himself if what he wrote has been accepted in a peer-reviewed publication. However, all this has strayed from the subject matter of this article, which is transubstantiation, not the Eucharist. What has been given in the section "Post-Vatican II development in understanding" concerns understanding not of transubstantiation but of the Eucharist and would be valid even if there were no doctrine of transubstantiation. I therefore make bold to eliminate it. Bealtainemí (talk) 11:11, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

"Only"

Which is most neutral: "I am only 21 years old", "I am already 21 years old", "I am 21 years old"? It is editorializing to use the word "only" in cases such as this. It doesn't matter if it is an important point, it is not neutral and doesn't belong in Wikipedia's voice. Elizium23 (talk) 21:58, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Purpose of transubstantiation

@Bealtainemí: The purpose of transubstantiation is frequently discussed in the present article, for as Aquinas says: “the final cause is the cause of all causes.” You must eliminate much of the article if you wish to limit the article to what the term means apart from its full import. I suggest that the article is extremely repetitive, as if to prove the Catholic teaching rather than simply present it clearly in encyclopedic form. I suggest to update the understanding of transubstantiation one needs the section you eliminated on Post-Vatican II. If you eliminate that section you should also eliminate all the following in italics, but to what purpose?

Lede: nature of the Eucharist and its theological implications has a contentious history, especially in the Protestant Reformation.

Gary Wills on St. Augustine: ...the ultimate grace signified by Christ's body and blood in the sacrament, namely the unity of the body of Christ which is the Church, and our living incorporation into it.

Luther calls narrow interpretation of the import of transubstantiation: to emasculate the words of God and arbitrarily to empty them of their meaning. Luther goes on to explain the reality behind “transubstantiation” as like the union that “the dove has with the Holy Spirit".

Mysterium Fidei points out that one should not treat transubstantiation as if they involve nothing more than "transignification," or "transfinalization, but does not deny that these additional terms explain what transubstantiation is about. Paul VI later says: As a result of transubstantiation, the species of bread and wine undoubtedly take on a new signification and a new finality, for they are no longer ordinary bread and wine but instead a sign of something sacred and a sign of spiritual food; but they take on this new signification, this new finality, precisely because they contain a new "reality" which we can rightly call ontological. Paul VI goes on to quote 1 Cor 10:16f where the whole reads: The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf. Paul cannot separate the transubstantiation from its purpose, and to be honest as to what transubstantiation means, we must not either. Paul VI goes on to quote For when the Lord calls the bread that has been made from many grains of wheat His Body, He is describing our people whose unity He has sustained; and when He refers to wine pressed from many grapes and berries as His Blood, once again He is speaking of our flock which has been formed by fusing many into one. Again, proper understanding for Catholics never separates the formal cause from the final cause as Aquinas would call it. Finally Paul VI observes: the Sacrament of the Eucharist is a sign and cause of the unity of Christ's Mystical Body.

Even while discussing the manner of Christ's presence, the Catechism of the Catholic Church does not fail to remind us of the more ultimate: The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend.

Finality is touched on further in the article in the statement: we consume God and become that which we consume.

I have restored the post-Vatican II section so that all can see what is being discussed. Jzsj (talk) 13:14, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

You seem to be equating transubstantiation with the sacrament. Thus, for instance, you quote on transubstantiation Gary Wills on the sacrament: "... the ultimate grace signified by Christ's body and blood in the sacrament, namely the unity of the body of Christ which is the Church, and our living incorporation into it". Even the presence of two separate articles in Wikipedia suggests they are not the same. The sacrament, the essential signs of which "are wheat bread and grape wine, on which the blessing of the Holy Spirit is invoked and the priest pronounces the words of consecration spoken by Jesus during the Last Supper", has a number of purposes, which might conceivably be frustrated (even apart from the possibility of immediate destruction) without thereby suggesting that transubstantiation did not occur, was not achieved. So too not only for finalities but also significations ("as this bread is made from many grapes and the wine from many grapes ...", etc., etc.) These matters belong to an article on the sacrament, not on the change, the transubstantiation. It is the sacrament, not the change, that is said to be "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend". I doubt if you will get support from the other editors here. If you do, I will of course shut up. Bealtainemí (talk) 15:14, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Before turning this into an RFC, we should clarify what the point at issue is. Again, I suggest that if you refer to the transubstantiation without its purpose you have little to say. The term always meant something objective, not purely subjective, as impossible as that objective element is to define. Connecting the mystery to a philosophical tag doesn't remove the mystery. To remove all purpose from the transformation is to make the transformation more unintelligible than it was meant to be. If you insist on eliminating all the elements of meaning for the transformation from the article, then I suggest you should greatly shorten the article since that it is a "real" sign is little disputed, we don't need dozens of people saying it. Jzsj (talk) 15:40, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

The article shows that there is in fact an awful lot that can be said about the (alleged) change of the bread and wine even without beginning to discuss the purposes of the resultant sacrament. I imagine most people would view the making of a hammer as distinct from its possible use for hitting you on the head with it. Bealtainemí (talk) 16:25, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

But Luther and Melanchthon argued at length about the meaning of the change, while today most accept that our differences are too obscure to be argued about. It's how people responded to the reality that gives meaning to what they asserted. If you don't think that response gives meaning to belief here, then you may be among those who believe that the only response demanded is adoration and feeling close to Jesus. Jzsj (talk) 16:51, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

My! What a lot of unsourced statements! I don't believe you will win consensus for them in Wikipedia. Bealtainemí (talk) 19:03, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

If it is determined to remove all purposive elements from the article, then the Theology#Roman Catholic Church section needs clipping where it strays near the end. Also, Trent is covered twice, and Will's paragraph could be greatly shortened. But discussing transubstantiation without any mention of what it is for is like describing a hammer without suggesting that it has any purpose. Is it possible to discuss a thing's nature without having some purpose for it in mind? The more mysterious something is, the more our understanding of its nature depends on its activity and effects. Jzsj (talk) 22:27, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

My last comment was over-facile. I apologize.

The purpose of the becoming is the being.

The purpose of the making of the hammer is the hammer, whatever the purpose of the hammer.

The purpose of transubstantiation (subject of a distinct article in Wikipedia) is the Eucharist (subject of a distinct article in Wikipedia), whatever the purpose of the Eucharist. Bealtainemí (talk) 07:18, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

If the whole article just emphasizes the fact that this is truly God in the bread, with no mention of why Jesus left us this real sign, then we fall into the trap that Catholics have been in since before the Reformation, when devotion to the reserved species had become detached from its deeper meaning within the Eucharist and had slipped into a private-devotional mode that it acquired only from the Middle Ages when the Church tabernacle had taken on a purpose distinct from the meaning of the bread as explained in Paul's epistles. This rightly caused a strong reaction by the 16th century reformers. Only since Vatican II has the Catholic Church made efforts to emphasize the primary meaning of the bread (like removing the tabernacle from the altar) while allowing for its use for adoration and personal prayer outside the Eucharistic liturgy. To have such a long article "proving" that Jesus is in the bread apart from its primary purpose justifies the criticism of the reformers (and of biblically-based Catholics) who would point out the gradual distortion of its meaning over history. I suggest that some acknowledgment be made in the article that the bread was instituted as a means of forming Christians into one body, prompting them to become other Christs and reach out in faith and charity to the world. Any purely devotional use does an injustice to its purpose as understood from an integral reading of the New Testament. The Fathers of the Church cited in the article did not have this problem since adoration of the reserved species was a later development. And the Catholic emphasis on the true presence since the Reformation is justified only as a defense of its importance, not of its meaning apart from Pauline theology which is gradually being rediscovered in the Catholic Church today. I would greatly shorten the article and mention the larger context in which this dispute is properly understood, which would necessitate some mention of the purpose of the bread. Jzsj (talk) 10:50, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

"God in the bread"? Are you sure you understand transubstantiation, Jzsj? Elizium23 (talk) 11:52, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

To be more precise, Jesus is really present in the bread, body and spirit, humanity and divinity, and Jesus is God the Son incarnate. Jzsj (talk) 12:23, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

"in the bread"? That, as near as I can tell, is consubstantiation. Here at this article, we are concerned with the Catholic, Thomistic belief, that entails: no longer bread or wine... there is no "bread" left to be "in". 70.162.235.225 (talk) 12:45, 29 December 2019 (UTC) Elizium23 (talk) 12:56, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

The choice of (wheaten) bread (rather than oatmeal or rice, and of wine rather than grape juice or beer) "as a means of forming Christians into one body ..." is not what this article is about. That is for another article. Nor is this article about "the true presence". This article is about the change, as affirmed by the Catholic Church and denied by some others, from bread and wine to something else. An article on the manufacture of a hammer should not stray into a disquisition on the symbolism of the hammer and sickle. Doing what you suggest is for a homily, not for a Wikipedia article on the alteration that is called "transubstantiation". Bealtainemí (talk) 12:01, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm saying that the very emphasis on transubstantiation which is shown here provoked a contrary reaction when philosophical disputes led to a narrow focus, diverting attention from the original purpose of the bread. The narrow emphasis led to other abuses, and this is relevant to discussion of the history of the definition of transubstantiation in the church. Jzsj (talk) 12:43, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

So you want this article to be about "the original purpose of the bread" (and/or consubstantiation). The article is about transubstantiation, not those other matters you want to talk about. Bealtainemí (talk) 19:08, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

"Post-Vatican II development in understanding" section is off topic. It doesn't talk about transubstantiation, it talks about the fruits of receiving the Eucharist or something else but not about transubstantiation (the change of the substance of the bread and wine into the substance of Jesus' body and blood).Rafaelosornio (talk) 05:40, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

I agree. this article is to explain what is transubstantiation, it is not a general article on Eucharist. There could be a different understanding of the Eucharist, but not a different understanding of transubstantiation which wants to be a description of a fact. People off course can agree/disagree that transubstantiation is a good description of the material portion of the Eucharist, but this article is just to explain what the term transubstantiation means. I propose the full deletion of section "Post-Vatican II development in understanding" or its possible move to Eucharistic theology#Roman Catholic Church. A ntv (talk) 09:17, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

There seems to be general support for deleting it from this article. Bealtainemí (talk) 11:00, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Unnecessarily repetitive

The section on Since the Second Vatican Council speaks only of the Roman Catholic Church and says much of what is repeated in that later section. I suggest it should be worked into or moved to that section, with repetition eliminated. Jzsj (talk) 15:42, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

By "that later section" I presume you mean the subsection headed "Roman Catholic Church" within the section "Theology".

The information you mention concerns "History" rather than "Theology": it doesn't in any way go deeper into the theology of transubstantiation and consists only of restatements of the Church's teaching that show that, historically, there has been no change in that teaching even in the 21st century (in spite of what seemed to be suggestions to the contrary in discussion here).

Perhaps you are proposing instead that the subsection "Individual opinions and knowledge" be moved under "Theology". While that proposal might make more sense, I think that subsection does not have content of sufficient value to count as a significant contribution to the theology of transubstantiation, and that it is no more than news about early 21st-century events of perhaps insufficient importance to count as history and that are therefore unsuited for mention in an encyclopedic article. Bealtainemí (talk) 16:41, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

One might begin by moving to one or the other section, not both, the same quotes from the Catechism and from Trent, as for instance CCC 1376 spelled out twice. Jzsj (talk) 16:54, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

A source can be used non-repetitively as support for two clearly distinct matters. Bealtainemí (talk) 17:13, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

But when not just the source but the same lengthy quotes are repeated it reflects the paucity of evidence for the point being made. After CCC of JP II is quoted there is no need to quote the Compendium. If you compare the Compendium to the Catechism you'll find that it leaves out at least 41 insights offered by Vatican II and so emphasizes an even more conservative summary of the faith than does the Catechism. Jzsj (talk) 17:31, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Your contribution of at least 41 sourced insights into the Catholic Church's doctrine of transubstantiation (not into what it "ought to be" but isn't, nor into matters other than the Catholic Church's teaching on transubstantiation) would indeed be welcome in the Theology section.

In the History section, the recently added initial summary explicitly mentions the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It would then be strange to omit the Compendium from the section. It would be not merely strange but illegitimate to omit it because of one Wikipedia editor's dislike of it for being too "conservative" for his taste. The Compendium's answer to the question "What is the meaning of transubstantiation?" is a historic statement of what is (still) in the present century the Church's teaching on transubstantiation.

One cannot speak of repetition in regard to the Compendium, which is not even mentioned in the Theology section. Bealtainemí (talk) 20:24, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

It's the repetitious use of Trent in all these sources that shows the weakness of the term "transubstantiation". It can be shown that Trent was concerned with conserving past doctrine against heresy, not rethinking it. No matter how often you repeat Trent it doesn't gain any more intelligibility for people today. As Thomas J. Reese well says, "using Aristotelian concepts to explain Catholic mysteries in the 21st century is a fool’s errand." Jzsj (talk) 21:06, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Even Trent doesn't use Aristotelian concepts. You seem to show that this fact, mentioned in the summary of the History section, should be repeated further down. Bealtainemí (talk) 21:37, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

It's dependence on the idea of substance that goes back to medieval philosophy and scholasticism, and doesn't resonate with the modern mind or modern philosophies. "Real presence" is more existential and fits better the scriptural meaning of the body of Christ. It's a disservice to our readers not to make this clear. Jzsj (talk) 21:47, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Whose idea of substance? The Church spoke of the Eucharistic alteration of the bread and wine as "transubstantiation" before the West knew either the "substance" of Aristotelian metaphysics or the different "substance" of modern chemistry. If I were to say that your argument lacks substance, would I be referring to "medieval philosophy and scholasticism"? Was Trent referring to "medieval philosophy and scholasticism" when it spoke of transubstantiation/substance, is the present-day Catholic Church referring to "medieval philosophy and scholasticism" when it speaks of transubstantiation/substance, any more than Shakespeare was when he wrote: "The cloud-capp'd towers ... shall dissolve and, like this insubstantial pageant faded, leave not a wrack behind"?

"Real presence" is more existential, you rightly say. Of course, by definition. It's what exists, once the change that is called transubstantiation occurs. But it is not the change. And so it isn't what this article is about. Stating this basic fact seems to require repetition. Bealtainemí (talk) 10:02, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Any deeper meaning attached to "substance" before Aquinas probably went back to Plato's essentialism, but no matter how many times you repeat the mystery in these terms it adds no more to the explanation of the change. Saying it less and acknowledging that it does little to clarify the mystery would produce a less bloated article. More helpful for our readership would be a brief statement that many moderns find it more helpful to follow scripture and emphasize the purpose of the bread, with a few, brief examples from scripture. This could be done in a new section on "criticism". It's like we're afraid to admit how jejune the transubstantiation approach is when it is not complimented with the purposive approach. Jzsj (talk) 11:52, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

"The purpose of the bread" is not at all what this article is about. This article is about the bread's ceasing to be bread. Isn't that obvious? (And why insist on seeking some philosophical meaning of the word "substance", whether in Aristotle or Plato? In Latin, the word substantia (based on the verb substo) was used without any recondite meaning by Quintilian, Seneca, Tacitus, as in substantia placidae et altae mentis, particularly with reference to someone's property and fortune, as even in English, probably under Latin influence, we can speak of someone as "a man of substance".) Bealtainemí (talk) 12:34, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Shortdesc

I think people are conflating the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist with transubstantiation. The former is the doctrine that the host is the body and blood. The latter is the doctrine about how the change comes about. It's very specific. The Eastern Churches don't subscribe to transubstantiation but still believe in the Real Presence. Let's not mix them up. Elizium23 (talk) 15:29, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes. someone is conflating the two concepts. Please cite the supposed Catholic doctrine that in transubstantiation (not Real Presence) the bread becomes, is changed into the body and the blood (and the soul and the divinity)` of Christ. The Catholic doctrine that is cited at the start of the article speaks of ""the change of the whole substance of bread into the substance of the Body of Christ [not into the substance of his blood, soul and divinity] and of the whole substance of wine into the substance of his Blood [not into the substance of his body, soul and divinity]". Bealtainemí (talk) 15:59, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

I didn't understand that at first, but I think that the shortdesc as I wrote it is adequate, because it merely shorthands "bread and wine" [changes into] "body and blood" and we can put "respectively" at the end if you really want to be that uptight about it. Elizium23 (talk) 16:03, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Also, I don't think {{citation needed}} are gonna do what you want inside {{shortdesc}}. Kinda futile to restore them, but I don't want to break 3RR. Elizium23 (talk) 16:04, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

For others' reference, here is my currently proposed wording for the shortdesc, being rejected by Bealtainemi: Catholic doctrine describing the change of bread and wine to the body and blood of Jesus Elizium23 (talk) 16:05, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

It was in the elementary school that I learned the doctrine of concomitance, which is distinct from the doctrine of transubstantiation. By transubstantiation, the Eucharistic bread becomes in substance the body of Christ. His blood, soul and divinity accompany the body, because it is (now) a living body, not a corpse; but the bread is not changed into them. See Hardon's Catholic Dictionary; Fr Bennitt on "Catholic Doctrine: Official Teachings"; the Catechism of the Council of Trent; United States bishops; Richard A. Nicholas; etc.

I await with interest some indication that Catholic doctrine is instead that the bread becomes blood (as well as body) and wine becomes body as well as blood, and that what I learned in elementary school and what these exponents of Catholic doctrine say is mistaken; that the words of consecration of the bread should instead be "This is my body and blood and soul and divinity" and that the same words should be used for the consecration of the wine, instead of the distinct formulas that are in fact used. Bealtainemí (talk) 17:43, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

No, I am not asserting that, and neither does my proposed shortdesc assert that; if you really want to get picky, then add respectively to it and be done. Elizium23 (talk) 17:45, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

For reference, the short description of transubstantiation that, for some reason, was rejected is: "Catholic doctrine that in the Eucharist the bread is changed into the body and the wine into the blood of Jesus". What is wrong with it? Isn't it less ambiguous? Doesn't it agree with what the statements of Catholic doctrine say? Bealtainemí (talk) 17:53, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

That seems to describe the Real Presence, not transubstantiation. Elizium23 (talk) 18:05, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

How about Catholic doctrine of how in the Eucharist the bread is changed into the body and the wine into the blood of Jesus Elizium23 (talk) 18:13, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

You still haven't said what you think is wrong with the short description you have for some reason rejected, and for which I have given samples of sources.

The short description that you have put in its place (and for which you have provided no sources) is about more than transubstantiation. It says in effect that the doctrine of transubstantiation is that the whole Christ is present under the appearance either of bread or wine. This is rather the doctrine of the Real Presence or that of concomitance, which is a doctrine distinct from transubstantiation and was defined by the Council of Trent separately from its definition of transubstantiation.

Your new proposal, "Catholic doctrine of how in the Eucharist the bread is changed into the body and the wine into the blood of Jesus" has the merit of no longer involving also the doctrine of concomitance and perhaps even being coextensive with that of the Real Presence. However, it includes the very problematic word "how". The Catholic Church says that the "how" of transubstantiation is unknowable: the doctrine doesn't try to explain "how the change takes place, occurring as it does 'in a way surpassing understanding'", as the article itself says. So change "of how" to "that", and you have the sourced statement that for some reason you have so far rejected? Bealtainemí (talk) 18:52, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps tomorrow I can restore the sourced description. Bealtainemí (talk) 20:33, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Bias and Obscuring

I want to assume WP:GOODFAITH but @Bealtainemí: has obscured the data in [2] and [3]. By stating that " The percentage of belief in the Real Presence was..." and keeping "A CARA poll showed that 91% say they believe that Jesus Christ is really present in the Eucharist." Both are plainly false, trying to obscure the actual underlying percentages of percentages (for example if only 1 Catholic was surveyed and fell into the category of attending Mass weekly or more, then the percentage would be 100%!). It is stated as if all Catholics believe like that.

• Secondly is the fact that they added an opinion piece by a Catholic news article as a "commentary" on the raw poll data. How is an opinion piece a reliable commentary?
• Third they add "The Catholic Church itself speaks of the bread and wine that "become Christ's Body and Blood" as "signs"." as part of WP:OR of the Catechism as if to validate the poll's data as appropriate the the Roman Catholic view of Transubstantiation. Dr. Ryan E. (talk) 00:42, 14 April 2020 (UTC)