Talk:Little Moreton Hall

Assessment Report

1. The article needs to be expanded.
2. It should make use of sections.
3. References and Citations are crucial for wikipedia, and so these must be added as the article is expanded. Make sure that as many as possible are "in-line" citations.(See WP:References, WP:V, and WP:CITE for guidance.)

Peter I. Vardy 14:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Adding an infobox

I think a discussion should happen about the advisability of placing an HTML comment in this article asking for an infox not to be added to it. I see no reason why this request should be, and invite interested people to discuss the matter on WT:CHES#Little Moreton Hall.  DDStretch  (talk) 22:11, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe that the comment was placed by the primary editor, Giano, who has written about 60 architecture-related articles, around 10 of which are featured articles, most having been showcased on the Main Page. All of the articles, even those that are not currently FAs, are laid out as if they are going to achieve that status - location and size of images is carefully balanced with text, sections are appropriately organized, and so on. Infoboxes, with their huge amount of wasted space, and restrictions on the use of the rest of the page, do not add to the artistry or the informational value of the page, and actively detract from it in many cases. Architecture isn't a subject that is particularly amenable to userboxes; compare to lichens or fungi, or complicated mathematical formulae, or even films. Giano has unfortunately had to have this discussion on several of the pages in recent months, and I believe he has tried to take pre-emptive action by adding this comment rather than having to have the same conversation 60-odd times. I hope this helps. Risker (talk) 22:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Please would it be possible for you to take this discussion to the page I recommended?  DDStretch  (talk) 22:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll copy it over. Risker (talk) 22:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Lengthy discussion followed at Wikipedia talk:CHES#Little Moreton Hall

20th-century restoration

There is a brief mention of steel rods being inserted in the 19th century, but nothing I can see about the major 20th-century restoration. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Why not add something then? Giano (talk) 01:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I have many other things to be doing, so why don't you? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:32, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Current expansion

I see the page is now undergoing a needed overhaul, the editors concerned may find this useful File:Plan of Little Moreton Hall.jpg. It's a little feint, but better than nothing, and may give someone somes guidelines to draw a clearer plan. Giano (talk) 09:03, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Query

I couldn't parse this sentence. What does it mean? "Access to the house is via a stone bridge across the moat and through a gate house in the south range, each of the two upper floors of which is jettied out over the floor beneath." --MarchOrDie (talk) 20:44, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Never mind, I think I figured it out. It was the juxtaposition of "jetty" and "moat", and the awkward construction of the latter clause that foxed me. I've rewritten it slightly and I think it is clearer now. --MarchOrDie (talk) 20:50, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Another query

The lead has "a ginger bread house ...". Should that be gingerbread? --MarchOrDie (talk) 18:12, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

It should indeed, and the quotation isn't quite right anyway, so I've fixed that too. George Ponderevo (talk) 18:29, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Leonard Meager

Is this a valid redlink? He seems only to be known for that one book. I can't quickly find any good sources on him. Thoughts? --MarchOrDie (talk) 20:45, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I was just wondering exactly the same thing myself. I say no, let's get rid of the redlink. George Ponderevo (talk) 20:49, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Done. No prejudice against creating this in the future should good sources become available. --MarchOrDie (talk) 20:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Style for FA

I am not sure of the procedure for FAC so I will leave a few comments here. Please move them or delete.

Lede-

1. As a German speaker my prose is flawed by a tendency to start every sentence with a subsidary clause. I see this here. # German grammar Now fully restored, the house is.... then At its greatest extent, in the mid-16th century, the Little Moreton Hall estate occupied.... and other examples

1. -08; the remainder was constructed in stages by successive generations of the family until around 1610. Surely this should be - 08. The construction continued until around 1610; successive generations of the family supervising further stages. Citation needed?

1. façades around three sides of a small cobbled courtyard A façade is a face of a building not a courtyard. Is façade the WP approved spelling of facade? Cobbled or cobble paved courtyard- the meaning of the former being ambiguous.

1. At its greatest extent, in the mid-16th century, the Little Moreton Hal surely extent which occured in the mid-16th Better however to say The Little Moreton Hall estate which was at its greatest extent during the mid-16th century.... Is extent the best word to express the concept of largest? Now we move onto the the iron bloomery with its cornmill, orchards and gardens and water-powered hammers. because that is the effect of the word with. Citation needed? wlinks needed to water powered hammers, cornmill types of orchard

1. The gardens were abandoned until their 20th-century recreation. Recreation or re-creation? I am troubled by abandoned until. To abandon is final- were the gardens responsible for their own re-creation? were left in an abandoned state until the 20th-century, when they were re-created using published 17th century designs? Perhaps. Citation needed? --ClemRutter (talk) 22:06, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

I'll move your points to the FAC ClemRutter, and answer them there. George Ponderevo (talk) 22:47, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Note re McKenna

Laurie McKenna appears to have been the senior listing officer for Cheshire at the time this book was written, so I assume it's authoritative. Espresso Addict (talk) 19:11, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Range?

It is only because this such a wonderfully fascinating article that I am wanting to ask the meaning of "range" as it is used here. Is it simply the side of a building from a particular direction ("façade" being the front)? Maybe it is similar to "wing"? I have not found the word in Glossary_of_architecture, nor, I think, in wikt:range. Should it be there? The article is quite clear without me knowing exactly what the word means but some sort of link or note would be comforting. I've now struggled to get down my OED and it gives a meaning as "row of buildings or parts of buildings; or a continuous stretch of building". BTW, many thanks for all the work and for persevering through the FAC. Thincat (talk) 11:25, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, "range" is more or less synonymous with "wing". --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 11:48, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Since asking I have spotted this diff suggesting that the article is deliberately using the words somewhat differently. Thincat (talk) 12:05, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

My understanding is that a wing is built in one go so to speak, whereas a range is constructed in stages, as the east range was. So the house was built originally with an east wing, but it now has an east range. In the case of the south range, it would seem odd to me to consider it to be a south wing to the east wing. George Ponderevo (talk) 16:56, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I am away from my books- but to me a range is a grouping of many individual building that have been connected together, where a wing will be integral to the building. The stables and kitchens may be in a range on the opposide of the courtyard, but the parlour or a library will be in the south wing. I will look for references in Pevsner and Brunskill when we are reunited.--ClemRutter (talk) 23:10, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Here's what Pevsner says: "It [Little Moreton Hall] is timber-framed throughout except for the mighty brick chimneybreasts of all three ranges ...". George Ponderevo (talk) 01:21, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Grafitto

The previous rendition "by her shadow hide ye what clothes shee weare" doesn't make any sense. The 1883 book Historic sites of Lancashire and Cheshire : a wayfarer's notes in the Palatine counties, historical, legendary, genealogical and descriptive (p. 446) by James Croston has "hede ye", i.e "heed" as in "see or perceive", which must surely be right. I've changed it.

Admittedly, Croston also gives "Then" instead of "Than" as the start of the second clause; presumably in error.

Steve Graham (talk) 13:39, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Ground floor vs first floor

Just so you know, these are the same thing. It should be ground floor, second floor, third floor. Why is it written this way??? Also, can we get a floor plan of the top floor? --98.246.156.76 (talk) 23:30, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

What you describe is the American practice of describing floors. In England the first floor is above the ground floor. Nev1 (talk) 00:30, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

There are only two rooms on the upper floor, the Long Gallery and the Upper Porch Room, so a plan would add very little IMO. George Ponderevo (talk) 01:05, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Infobox

I recently fixed this article's infobox, which was not displaying. Another editor has now removed it, saying "it adds nothing anyway". That is patently false, as the infobox, in addition to providing a summary of key points for the benefit of our readers, cases the article to emit machine-readable metadata, such as is used by DBpedia, search engines, and, soon, Wikidata. The infobox should be restored. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:49, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Looking above, the topic is not new. I added an infobox to the German subset and think it's a start to being helful, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:19, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

This has been discussed to death. Have you seen the topic above?[1] George Ponderevo (talk) 23:22, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I see a discussion from five years ago. It doesn't seem relevant to the point I made today. I see This discussion, too. Have you seen WP:OWN? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:38, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I have, and I've even read it, unlike so many others apparently. The metadata was available for analysis via the invisible infobox, therefore I don't really see the validity of your point. If you want metadata then have metadata, but there's no need to add unsightly clutter just to have metadata. I have no objection to you restoring the infobox to the way it was earlier this evening on the other hand, invisible. George Ponderevo (talk) 23:45, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

You appear to be labouring under a misapprehension; the so-called "invisible infobox", which was not an infobox at all, emitted no metadata. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:55, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

One of us is certainly labouring under a misapprehension, but I think it's you. I reject utterly your position that it is necessary to introduce unsightly infoboxes simply to make metadata available. How many infoboxes emit metadata at present? Why is it not possible to emit metadata without an infobox being visible? Doesn't {{Persondata}} do that for instance? George Ponderevo (talk) 00:06, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

You misrepresent me. Your claim that "the metadata was available for analysis via the invisible infobox" is bogus. False. Untrue. I can only wonder why you said that, if it wasn't due to a misapprehension on your part. The metadata emitted by Persondata is a limited, Wikipedia-specific type that applies to people only; that emitted by our infoboxes uses a set of more feature-rich, international, open standards called microformats. There is consensus for the use of microformats on Wikipedia; we already emit millions. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 00:19, 12 February 2013 (UTC)