Talk:Romania

Errors in Romania site

I suggest the following two changes, which are in accordance with cited resources and information on other pages of wikipedia. Thank you for editing it!

'Romania is the 12th largest country' → 'Romania is the 12th largest country' OR 'and also the 7th most populous member state of the European Union' → 'and also the 10th most populous member state of Europe' 'forming the Danube Delta, which is the second-largest and best-preserved delta in Europe' → 'forming the Danube Delta, which is the largest and best-preserved delta in Europe'

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:36, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Section 2. History

For the time being, the section dedicated to the history of Romania is highly unbalanced and contains original research. For instance, the section refers to (unspecified) "migratory peoples" invading the territory (in accordance with the traditional narrative of Romanian historiography) without mentioning that many of the allegedly "migratory peoples" (Carpians, Gepids and Slavs) formed sedentary communities for centuries in the region. Likewise, the article refers to the late 12th-century anonymous chronicler's report of a late 9th-century Romanian principality in Transylvania, without mentioning that the reliability of the chronicle has been questioned by many historians (including Carlile Aylmer Macartney and Dennis Deletant). Furthermore, the article describes Transylvania as a "principality" which was a "largely autonomous part of the Kingdom of Hungary" from the 11th century. However, Transylvania did not form an administrative unit in the Kingdom of Hungary. The voivode of Transylvania (who was an appointed royal official, not an autonomous ruler) only administered the Transylvanian counties, but about one-third of the region—the Saxon and Székely seats (districts)—were administered by other royal officials. The first elements of autonomy appeared with the Diploma Andreanum which granted privileges to significant groups of Transylvanian Saxons in the 1220s. Borsoka (talk) 02:45, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

This is the article of Romania, not the article History of Romania. It's general stuff (you will have to present your theory on the History of Romania). Regarding Transylvania you will have indeed to agree with other historians, including Romanian I hope. But notice we must respect eachother and keep opinions agreed by all, and most likely use the universal history! Britannia? Regards, Cristina Christina (talk) 09:33, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I do not understand your above answer. Do you agree that the section contradicts basic WP policies, especially WP:NPOV and WP:NOR? Borsoka (talk) 10:48, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Ulpia Traiana

First of all, we do not need to present all Roman towns. Nevertheless, we could place a picture about Ulpia Traina instead of Potaissa, but we should choose a better one. This picture shows the roofs of modern houses in the background. Borsoka (talk) 11:15, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I did it, Borsoka! Found another one. I also shortened up the Comperorary and NATO and EU integration sections. But in my opinion the World Wars and Communism are well written. Please have some good breeding and don't touch them. Hungary also has a lot on history, still maybe more. Christina (talk) 17:45, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I think the two sections are still too long. They should be shortened. Borsoka (talk) 02:32, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

But look at your Hungary. What if I go there to do the same? It would not be nice and I want respect between us. On Hungary article they are much longer. We have communism + Kadar era, a little bit more than on Romania. Moreover the World Wars part is huge. We have Between the World Wars 1918–1941 + World War II 1941–1945 (on Hungary article). Christina (talk) 07:43, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I do not understand your above remark. I have never stated that you cannot edit other articles. Borsoka (talk) 08:19, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

I said Hungary has a lot more info on those history sections than Romania. I compared it. And in my opinion we shouldn't shorten up. Regarding Latin, where do you see Latin on that? It says Romance language, even Britannica agrees. Can you explain me please? Christina (talk) 08:21, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

If you do not want to shorten it, why do you write of it? Latin is not a Romance language. Borsoka (talk) 08:29, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

But where do you say LATIN written? You added "dubious" on Romance. Christina (talk) 08:34, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Do you suggest Romanian is a Romance based creole language without directly inherited Latin words? Could you refer to books substantiate this claim? I know of a hypothesis describing Romanian as the direct descendant of the idiom spoken by Slavic peoples and deliberatelly transformed into a Romance language, but this is a quite marginal view. Borsoka (talk) 08:42, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

@Cristina neagu: could you refer to the relevant WP policy prescribing or proposing that the same piece of information should be repeated twice in the same article and in the same section? Sorry, I do not understand your reference to Hungary. Do you think the skull is connected to Hungarians? Yes, there are Russian scholars who say that the oldest inhabitants of Europe spoke Uralic languages, but this is a quite marginal view. Borsoka (talk) 18:13, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Not at all, I said it's harmless if we also mention the dating year. And if you want you can also add its localisation. You wrote it on first place, and you did it very well. They rarely also read the lines, that why I think it's good to specify. It doesn't matter on which territory it is or would be such remains, I would be totally happy to find out they are the oldest and to go visit them. As tourism and major history part. PS. I am not into theories. Regards Christina (talk) 18:20, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

OK, I understand you cannot refer to a WP policy. The problem will be sooner or later fixed. Borsoka (talk) 23:41, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

PISA

Buna ziua,

PISA a fost introdus abia in 2011 in Romania.

Dar de ce PISA e irelevant cu adevarat? Nnimeni nu stie cum aleg aia scolile in care se organizeaza testul, pe cale de consecinta "rezultatele" sunt irelevante. Procesul nu este 100% transparent e 100% opac. Un exemplu, daca alegerile din Romania s-ar face prin alegerea aleatorie a unor colegii de la tara, din Moldova, ar castiga PSD-ul.

Citez "Testarea internaţională PISA se desfăşoară odată la trei ani şi evaluează nivelul elevilor de 15-16 ani la matematică, ştiinţe şi la înţelegerea textelor. 5.103 elevi români, cu vârste cuprinse între 15 ani şi 16 ani la data testării, din 185 de şcoli au susţinut, în luna aprilie 2015, testarea PISA propriu-zisă."

5000 de elevi de unde si au lucrat aceste teste inainte cum se face in Vest de foarte multi ani? E o bazaconie prin care Vestul sa fie deasupra Estului.

Nu vi se pare o ANTITEZA uriasa? O scoala dezastruoasa conform PISA nu are cum sa ofere an de an performante la olimpiadele de matematica, informatica, fizica sau geografie.

"În toate ţările care participă la PISA 2015, alegerea şcolilor şi a elevilor se realizează de către Consorţiul PISA, cu ajutorul unui software specializat."? Ce anume face programul ala? Care sunt criteriile pe care le ia in calcul? Difera ele de la tara la tara?

PISA este o testare foarte controversata, indusa de UE.

Si nu cred ca accentuarea pe pagina Romania ne este de folos. Se discuta la nivel de minister si la UE. N-are rost sa ne taiem craca singuri, pagina Romaniei are mai mult scop turistic si de informare.

Christina -- message received from User:Cristina neagu in my talk page

Hi. First off, let's speak English, as we're here at the English language edition of this project. We both speak this language and it should be a courtesy to anyone else interested in this article, so they can openly enter the discussion.

The Wikipedia article about Romania, like any other Wikipedia article, does not have this purpose. We are bound by WP:NPOV to cover neutrally all subjects, so it's definitely not a showcase for touristic self-promotion. So I'm hoping you're not suggesting trimming the reality to paint a beautiful, but false or incomplete image.

I'm not sure how well you're informed about PISA tests: you mention the European Union in relation to them, but I don't see how the EU is involved; this is a project of the OCDE that goes far beyond the EU or Europe. You call them controversial, but they are extensively covered in the press (including the specialty press) and they are called "of national and international public interest" by the Romanian government itself. This warrants a mention, just like we can mention them in any country. Saying they're something that puts the West above the East is really strange, since the top spots usually taken by the Eastern education systems in Japan and Singapore.

You're asking if that doesn't look like a huge difference. It does, but we're not here to judge that. We generally let sources do that. Anyway, I'm sure you know the answer to that question: the results at the scientific olympiads are not always great, those that are good are usually reported as great, and they're achieved by training in advance already high-performing students from good schools; something that can't be done with PISA tests, that selects students at random, without human intervention, to give a generic sample. That's why they're worth mentioning as a counterpart of that: we're trying to paint the whole picture. We can expand on that in different articles. - Andrei (talk) 11:43, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Svend Kreiner, a statistician from the University of Copenhagen in Denmark thinks the study is not reliable at all. He argued that although it is possible to find a task in which Denmark does significantly better than England for example and another task that Denmark does worse than England the tests were still a valid way to compare performance.

David Spiegelhalter wrote: "Pisa does present the uncertainty in the scores and ranks - for example the UK rank in the 65 countries is said to be between 23 and 31. It's unwise for countries to base education policy on their Pisa results, as Germany, Norway and Denmark did after doing badly in 2001."

It's a very controversial study, actually both PISA and OECD are. I can find dozens of articles against them. In my opinion we should solve the problem, by not mention them here (because it's the page of Romania) and if you can re-add them on Education in Romania but we must add they are controversial.

Or the statisticians are not more important than our opinions? They don't even know how many pupils are tested, 4000 or 5000, from where. And each one is tested differently.

Don't you think from such a score to Olympiad medals is too bigger step?

Christina (talk) 11:47, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

OK, if PISA and the OCDE are controversial, we can mention that in relevant articles. But they are both highly relevant. We're not going to remove them just for that.- Andrei (talk) 11:51, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes, reliable sources and policymakers are more important to writing this article than our opinion.- Andrei (talk) 11:51, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

According to Forbes, PISA selects a sample that "represents the full population of 15-year-old students in each participating country or education system." What this means in practice is the ability of some education administrators choosing their top-performing students from smaller samples in cities or city-states such as Chinese Taipei, Macao, Hong Kong and Singapore. While most of the other results came from a sample of scores around nations, some countries such as Argentina and China were allowed to take their sample from their most educated cities or regions.

I don't see how PISA and OECD are relevant. It's like wrong and non-transparent survey. Most of the countries on Wikipedia didn't publish such a thing on main article, and even Education pages.

WHY DON'T YOU MENTION THEM ONLY IN THE EDUCATION OF ROMANIA? To be fair.

Christina (talk) 11:53, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Andreas Schleicher & OECD and Pisa tests are damaging education worldwide - academics

Administered every three years, Pisa results are anxiously awaited by governments, education ministers, and the editorial boards of newspapers, and are cited authoritatively in countless policy reports. They have begun to deeply influence educational practices in many countries. As a result of Pisa, countries are overhauling their education systems in the hopes of improving their rankings. Lack of progress on Pisa has led to declarations of crisis and "Pisa shock" in many countries, followed by calls for resignations, and far-reaching reforms according to Pisa precepts.

We are frankly concerned about the negative consequences of the Pisa rankings. For example, in the US, Pisa has been invoked as a major justification for the recent "Race to the Top" programme, which has increased the use of standardised testing for student-, teacher-, and administrator evaluations, which rank and label students, as well as teachers and administrators according to the results of tests widely known to be imperfect.

In education policy, Pisa, with its three-year assessment cycle, has caused a shift of attention to short-term fixes designed to help a country quickly climb the rankings, despite research showing that enduring changes in education practice take decades, not a few years, to come to fruition.

ETC

Christina (talk) 12:05, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Origin of words

I do agree, Borsoka, it's not from Latin. Although Romance comes from Vulgar Latin, we talk about "elements of Romance". Over 20% are French words, around 5% are Italian, only the rest. Do you mind keeping the table? It's well documented. And usually we don't go to Hungary to rewrite your page and history. If you would have been fair, you should have only erased the Latin "word". Not hiding the truth of universal grammar conventions. I think we can still prove we are respectful. Christina (talk) 14:51, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Please respond us, Borsoka, Rosenborg also doesn't understand! Where we are wrong and if we are against the universal conventions. If the words are not elements of Romance, from where do they come? Is the table rigged? Christina (talk) 15:14, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I have several times explained it. Latin is not a Romance language. Inherited Latin words cannot be mixed with Romance loanwords. Borsoka (talk) 15:17, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

@Cristina neagu:, I have never asked you to edit pages dedicated to Hungary or Hungarian history. If you do not want to edit those pages, it is your choice. Please, concentrate on issues relating to this specific article on this specific Talk page. Borsoka (talk) 15:19, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

I understand now. Do you agree for a photo of Romance languages? Our "universal" brothers at least? Christina (talk) 15:21, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Why not? Borsoka (talk) 15:25, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Uncivility

@Cristina neagu:, your constant reference to my ethnicity is highly uncivil. Please edit the article in accordance with basic WP policies (WP:NOR, WP:NPOV), because there is no specific WP policy dedicated to the "sensitivity of your Hungarian friends." Borsoka (talk) 15:24, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

I do apologise, you haven't explained very well and you made jokes with childless Trajan. :)) To be honest, I am only giving you credit for it partially but I said to satisfy you. And I will replace it with a photo of the Romance languages. Hoping it's fine for you. Universal history is via convention, even though we many not like things. Then regarding the Wikipedia policy, it's slightly different than the universal history of Britannia. :D Christina (talk) 15:33, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

History: subdivisions

I consider a rigorous separation of Antiquity into subdivisions as extremely important in the case of Romania, because of the generally poor knowledge of Romanian history both in the country and outside of it, and the very widespread tendency in Romania to mistakenly amalgamate the history of Romania as a territory, with that of modern-day Romanians as an ethnic group. The diversity of ethnicity and cultural identity among the predecessors of the Romanians in what is now Romania is regularly obscured by nationalistic claims of cultural continuity going back all the way to Stone Age cultures. Most Romanians leave school with kind of a goulash (no Hungarian pun intended) of thoughts regarding anything older than the Dacians and Romans.

There are of course problems in defining the periods - prehistory only ends with the arrival of the literate Greeks, but the populations they encounter are at very different stages of cultural development; people who have studied history and archaeology should figure out the boundaries between Stone, Eneolithic/Chalcolithic, Bronze, and Iron Age and Classical Antiquity, after first checking if they all apply to the territory of modern Romania.

The separate WP articles dealing with the History of Romania and distinct periods in the history of Romania, specifically Romania in Antiquity, are not accurately subdivided either. If they were, one could arguably be more casual here in the article about Romania after indicating the proper links. So the job of indicating the historical periods needs to be done in coordination between these two levels. Arminden (talk) 08:06, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Could you refer to specific WP policies prescring that 2-6 sentences should be grouped into separate sections? Sorry, I must ignore your above remarks, because they present your own thoughts about the teaching of history in Romania. Nevertheless, you are free to create an article dedicated to the Prehistoric age in Romania, because it is missing. Borsoka (talk) 08:13, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

@Borsoka: Logic didn't start with Wikipedia. Even here, tools such as red links are used in order to indicate to the user that some relevant information is missing (users can then look it up somewhere else), and encourage editors to supply it. Once you create the proper frame, by using headings and sometimes red links, the content will follow; that's one aspect on how WP works. The fact that now an important topic is dealt with in just a few lines, doesn't prove it should be further devalued by leaving it hidden in a vague umbrella-paragraph. Inviting me to write an article about Prehistoric age in Romania, a hugely interesting topic not least in the context of the Danubian culture and overall propagation of humanity and different cultures into Europe, is either flattering (I'm not a historian, and I don't have the time to patch it together from sources), or plain rhetorical: the fact that I won't write it doesn't in any way make it less necessary. Arminden (talk) 09:02, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

This article is not dedicated to the history of Romania, but to Romania. We do not need to explain all small details of the history of the country, because there is a separate article dedicated to it. For instance, the section dedicated to the Geography of Romania is not (and should not) be divided into sub-sections dedicated to the mountains, sub-subsections about each mountain range and sub-sub-subsections for each peak. Borsoka (talk) 09:12, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

OK, bye.Arminden (talk) 09:22, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I returned to the original version. England, which is a good article, applies the same approach. We do not need to keep a separate section for 5-6 sentences. Borsoka (talk) 02:03, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Location

Christina,

it is hard to discuss sometimes in the edit logs, thus I would reply here. The corresponding articles I referred describe the history, evolution & other concerns based on geographical locations of countries, also regarding what is official, what is geographical, what is by view (if there are more etc.).

I don't think I said anything wrong, because:

- I did not told/refer to anything about what would happen if from Iceland to the Ural mountains we mathemamatically would split Europe into three

- I never said Transylvania would not be (or had been as formerly part of Hungary) considered part of Central-Europe, I acknowledged that some parts of today's Romania are nominally not Eastern Europe

- comparison with present-day Hungary is irrelevant, anyway in the Central European region based on the old Communist Iron Curtain still politicians mistakenly confuse the term so "Central-Eastern Europe" vs. "Eastern-Central-Europe", or even using Eastern-Europe, though the Americans are not mistaking such mostly as a surprise, so we should not overargue this question, as well some countries are in complex situation having their territories in the meeting or regions. Romania as before is still counted as an Eastern-European country, and there is nothing dehonestating in this, despite the territorial changes in the past century, by having mostly her territory in theis region, also by tradition, time zone, etc. (Balkan issues are always complex if you mentioned it, part of the southern territories belong there, but Romania is not treated as "Balkan country", who said it? Btw, during the midst of the last century the "Southeastern-Europe" denomination was common even including more western or nothern regions, but they became already outdated, recently I noticed a some debate on Croatia's proper classification)

Cheers.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:55, 4 February 2019 (UTC))

Hi! It wasn't really my edit, I just also said my opinion. As you saw, I didn't even edit anything. But for me Hungary and Romania are also Central European countries. Half of Hungary and Romania are really in the heart of Europe. Bulgaria is like South. Some agree, some argue. Although in the case of "Romania being Balkan", many professors started to disagree. What's a PENINSULA? It must be a land extension bordered by 3 waters (1-Adriatic, 2-Aegean, 3-Black Sea, 1-2-3). That's why we can say Romania is only Carpathian. That small access to the Black Sea is made up by 2 counties. They must start knowning geography because they don't live anymore with the former Eastern Bloc. I am no guru, rarely pushing for my edits (1 vote in democracy). Invite him to discuss here if he wants. There is no shame we are both still included in East, at all (like some would think), just that we should start a little bit promoting our values. Regards, Christina (talk) 21:14, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Of course I know it was not your edit, but you mentioned me thus I reacted here, without any "invitation" any user may express any opinion. I agree that among many circles there are still huge problems regarding proper designations of countries regarding geography, but in this case (as EE) there is not any real flaw if we consider the evidence presented (and regarding the edit case it cannot be exluded). Regards(KIENGIR (talk) 23:44, 4 February 2019 (UTC))

Image spam?

We seem to have a little WP:GALLERY problem causing some WP:UNDUE bringing attention to one section or another and full of 'unsourced stamtments with some images not even metioned in the pros text. Perhaps best to talk about what images to keep so we can follow our Mos on images and policy of verifiability. Though it best to bring up here as there seems to be a lots of editwaring in this article as of late.--Moxy 🍁 05:52, 9 April 2019 (UTC) (original post 16:14, 13 February 2019)

First of all, hello! Secondly there is no editwaring, we made a mistake regarding some stats of economics. Regarding your edits, you are not welcomed on the page of Romania since you are bringing up justice on Wikipedia like you are the only user on Wikipedia! REALLY SPAM? When other "countries" have several these kind of galleries. This part of the Romanian ethnogenesis was established by me, Borsoka and Rosenborg Fan. First came the Hungarians who removed parts of our history in order not to be offensive to anyone, secondly you are coming and you are deleting everything. I will probably choose the most important images, because you know nothing about Romania since you are a Canadian trapper. I am just hoping you don't have other users on this page. In rest, you will get respect if you are offering one! Could have discussed first here. Christina (talk) 15:16, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

• 
  Skull from the "Cave with Bones" (the oldest known remain of Homo sapiens in Europe).
• 
  "Goddess" (an anthropomorphic clay figurine of the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture.
• 
  The territorial extent of the Kingdom of Dacia during Burebista's reign (c. 40s BC.)
• 
  Ruins of sanctuaries at Sarmizegetusa Regia (Dacia's capital during the reigns of Burebista and Decebalus).
• 
  Decebalus, the last of the Dacian kings. He concluded a peace treaty with the Romans in the wake of the First Roman–Dacian War.
• 
  Roman soldiers salute Emperor Trajan during the Second Roman–Dacian War (the war marked the downfall of the Dacian Kingdom).
• 
  Roman soldiers fighting Dacians, depiction based on a bas-relief from the Arch of Constantine in Rome
• 
  Ruins of the amphitheatre at Ulpia Traiana Sarmizegetusa (the capital of Roman Dacia).
• 
  Roman baths at Potaissa (a Roman colonia in Dacia)
• 
  Celtic helmet from Ciumești, near Satu Mare, northwestern Transylvania
• 
  A 4th-century pectoral cross from Dinogetia (a Roman town in Scythia Minor).
• 
  The 4th-century Biertan Donarium from Biertan, southern Transylvania

WOW that was one of the most ignorant replies I've ever seen. So let's see what others have to say... what would be the best images to keep guys,--Moxy (talk) 17:31, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

I suggest that the skull or the remains of the Dacian sanctuaries should be preserved. The first picture is relevant for all Europe, the second picture depicts the remnant of a peculiar ancient culture. Borsoka (talk) 19:31, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Sounds good ....anyother one that is representative of the culture of the time?--Moxy (talk) 19:34, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

I already kept what it was the most notable. The Romanian ethnogenesis is Dacian-Roman, plus Skull of the oldest homo sapiens. The Cucuteni culture is mentioned by the next. This part is about our ethnogenesis, that's why Burebista, Decebalus and Trajan rulers should have also be included. All were important but most important are the sancturies of Dacia, of Roman Dacia, the map and the Skull. Christina (talk) 19:37, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

The article is not dedicated to the Romanians' ethnogenesis, but to the country. The Daco-Roman continuity hypothesis is only one of the scholarly views about the origin of the Romanians. According to The Cambridge History of the Romance Languages (2013), the "historical, archaeological and linguistic data available do not seem adequate to give a definitive answer" in the debate about the origin of the Romanians. Likewise, The Oxford Guide to the Romance Languages (2016) writes that "the location and extent of the territory" where Romanian originated is uncertain. All the same, the picture about the amphitheatre in Ulpia Traiana or the Biertan Donarium could represent the Roman culture (and the latter also play a preeminent role in the Romanians' national myths, because they traditionally regard it as an important evidence for the presence of a Christian Latin-speaking population in the former Dacia province). Borsoka (talk) 02:25, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

I see gallery spam is back ...how can we deal with this?? --Moxy (talk) 11:13, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

No, gallery spam is not back. A gallery was placed in the section and it contains six pictures that are closely connected to the text of the same section. The gallery secures that the pictures are not separeted from the section. Borsoka (talk) 11:26, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Lets copy this here...*WP:GALLERY "Generally, a gallery should not be added so long as there is space for images to be effectively presented adjacent to text." ...."Gallery images must collectively add to the reader's understanding of the subject without causing unbalance to an article or section within an article"....that links to WP:DUE that says "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, juxtaposition of statements and imagery"....that links to MOS:ACCIM that says "Avoid indiscriminate gallery sections because screen size and browser formatting may affect accessibility for some readers due to fragmented image display".-- Moxy (talk) 11:33, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for copying the text of the relevant policies. There is no space for images in each view in the article, consequently the gallery is fully in line with the quoted policy. The six pictures are closely connected to the well-sourced text of the section, consequently they help the reader to understand the text and the gallery cannot be described as "indiscriminate". Without the gallery form, the pictures are displayed near to other sections (namely to sections which are not connected to them) in several views which prevent readers from realizing the connection between a certain picture and the relevant text. Borsoka (talk) 11:49, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Text should be able to standalone without images. You are correct that the history section of this page has far too many images even without the gallery, with plenty of MOS:SANDWICHING. The solution to that is not to add a gallery, but to be more selective in what is a very high-level article for which WP:SUMMARYSTYLE is an important consideration. The consideration is not whether a picture is closely connected with a specific part of the text, but how the picture helps inform the reader about the topic at hand, which in this case is Romania. CMD (talk) 12:33, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree that the text should be able to stand alone without images (and, actually, the text stands alone without images). Gallery form helps to avoid sandwiching. Borsoka (talk) 02:18, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

The gallery does avoid sandwiching, but it also unbalances the article in preference for a specific section. I don't see how pictures of artefacts justifies such unbalancing. CMD (talk) 05:21, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

If all sections are followed by a proper gallery, the issue of unbalance is also solved. Those artefacts and ruins are directpy connected to the text. How can you select a sole picture to represent hundreds of years of history? Borsoka (talk) 05:33, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

With some thought, I assume. It's been done elsewhere. Clearly if the text stands alone, it doesn't need any at all, so we are free to pick genuinely useful ones. Keep in mind that this article isn't about hundreds of years of history. And even then, History of Romania manages to not use a single one of those pictures. CMD (talk) 09:05, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Why is that article is a good comparison? Is it a FA or GA, or is it mentioned as an good example of the use of pictures? Borsoka (talk) 10:01, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

So I see things are going backwards here with even more images added. So not sure what to do here. Perhaps reopen the RfC get more experienced editors to voice their opinion. Was just about to clean up the page by removing the images not mentioned in the article and noticed even more added. Ask for an RfC again or move forward with cleaning up the kids picture book?--Moxy 🍁 23:57, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

There are established guidelines on the matter, an RfC wouldn't change that. Looking at the "History" section, given the current length of text, "Middle Ages" has space for another picture, and with none of the images in the gallery being particularly enlightening, I would use either the Battle of Posada or the Vlad III picture. In "Independence and monarchy" I'd keep the timeseries map, as that is clearly informative, and drop the large Domnitor. In "World Wars and Greater Romania" I'd drop the map of lost territories as that's covered in the previous timeseries. In "Communism" I'd drop Michael I in favour of the other two currently there. In "NATO and EU integration", as it stands, I'd drop the NATO meeting image, which shows not much at all. CMD (talk) 01:02, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

I would keep the pictures in the galleries and add more galleries. I think you should decide what is your problem: sandwiching, unbalancing or kids picture books. Borsoka (talk) 02:08, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

WP:NOTGALLERY ....have reopened the RfC.....as 2 of us our referencing policies and our Mos vs 2 who juat like lots of pics with one of them now banned and the other suggesting galleries in every section.--Moxy 🍁 02:54, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Please try to summarize the issue properly: there is a third editor who is not banned, but wants to place pictures in the article ([1]). Please also try to remember that I stated above that your references to WP:NOTGALLERY are not convincing. Thank you for reopening the RfC. Borsoka (talk) 03:08, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

@Moxy:, I see you was again unable to open the RfC. Can I help you or do you want assistance from a more experienced editor? Borsoka (talk) 03:10, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Let's @Rosenborg BK Fan: to have a say... they did not add a gallery but they should be aware their edit caused an accessibility concern by sandwiching the text and should be avoided.--Moxy 🍁 05:52, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

@Moxy:, is it you? Please try to always sign your comments. If my understandig is correct, you abandoned the idea to open an RfC. Why did you change your mind? You can always seek assistance from more experienced editors if you are unable to properly initiate a process, because we are a community. My technical skills are also awful, so I can understand your situation. Believe me, seeking and providing assistance is part of our culture, it is not a big issue. Borsoka (talk) 03:39, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

@Moxy:, do you think that the above request is neutral (and brief) in accordance with Wikipedia:RFCBRIEF? Please try to reword it, otherwise we could hardly accept the results. Borsoka (talk) 07:27, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Looks all good to me..... describes the problem of galleries causing undue weight and metions the unsourced statements all linked to our policies. --Moxy 🍁 20:22, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Communism Section

I think this section is the poorest and most biased of the whole article. It is obvious that it is written here by an anticommunist hipster and partial copied from anticommunist authors. To summarize the entire period with lack of consumer goods and revolution, with 3 photographs of the subject, clearly shows the 'good intention' of the person who wrote it.--Kunok Kipcsak (talk) 10:43, 31 March 2019 (UTC)