Talk:Nazi Germany

Predecessors and successors

The infobox contains a list of entities that are listed under the columns "Preceded by" and "Succeeded by". These look odd to me, i.e. Poland and France, for example, did not precede Nazi Germany, they were occupied by it. Likewise, Occupied Germany and Yugoslavia, among others, did not succeed it. The Weimar Republic is fine to keep as a predecessor, but not sure what to include as the successor(s), since the article does not discuss this. I seem to vaguely recall that West Germany may have assumed treaty obligations of Nazi Germany, but not sure.

Any feedback on this? --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:15, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

This refers to the territories, not to the legal entities. Nillurcheier (talk) 07:34, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Except the headings are listed as Preceded by and Succeeded by. Successor state has a specific meaning in international law. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:00, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman:,

Poland and France preceded it, because of many former German territories were recovered from them. Yugoslavia succeeded, because part of the former Carniola. WP infobox succession-predecession does not follow international law, see spefific discussion once at Austria-Hungary and the edit logs, unrecognized entities remained as well in the list, together with recognized ones. Btw. in war conditions - as I urged and clarified in many topics with various examples - blind adherence to the so-called inernational law may be POV and mutually exclusive, etc. We only agreed to remove such impossiblities, like a Polish underground/in exile organizations could be identified as a country or a territory. On the other hand, if the timeline covers interruptions or changes of status quo, the same entity may be as well predecessor and successor. These are the most important factors currently at first glance which should taken into account.(KIENGIR (talk) 12:47, 27 September 2020 (UTC))

France did not cease to exists, it continued. It was occupied, not disbanded.12:56, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Who said it ceased to exist?(KIENGIR (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2020 (UTC))

I find that entire section in the infobox totally non-informative without an explanation of exactly what is meant by “preceded” and “succeeded.” Normally terms like that are used (for example) in boxes referring to country leaders, where predecessors and successors filled the exact same role under discussion in the article. That’s not the case here. France was not “Third Reich” before Third Reich. The whole concept of the box doesn’t make any sense that I can see. Can someone please explain the rationale behind it? Preceded and succeeded as what? France was France before, during and after the war. This simple fact is what got the west involved in the war, because every country involved viewed the occupation as illegal. With that view in mind, what is this box really saying? 73.69.251.97 (talk) 16:09, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

The meaning is obvious, and this complaint is specious, bordering on trolling. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:09, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Not everything that seems obvious to one is obvious to all. Let’s assume it is obvious to you. Okay, I can accept that. Can you accept that it’s meaning is not obvious to me and others involved in this discussion? That fact appears to be fairly obvious to me. If the meaning of the infobox section is that obvious to you then please humor us by answering the questions I asked. Show us how obvious it is. Humor us also by dispensing with unproductive accusations. Calling me a troll is a clear personal attack and waste of time. It is what those involved in the indefensible resort to when they believe they are being challenged. I’m not saying that’s what you are. I’m saying if you don’t want to appear as such, then simply engage in the discussion. I am not challenging the information. I cannot challenge what I cannot make sense of. I’m saying I cannot make sense of it as it is currently presented. So please explain what it means, as if I’m asking genuine questions that deserve genuine answers. Because that is exactly what I am doing. Thank you. 73.69.251.97 (talk) 00:26, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Here’s a thought. After poking around a bit I think I understand now why this particular section of the infobox seems confusing to some readers. Example: The predecessor France is not actually linked to the France article, but to the article French Third Republic. Others are similarly NOT linked to main articles of the country/region as spelled out in the infobox. I propose the place names used in the infobox simply be changed to match the article titles to which they are linked. For me, following the links cleared up my confusion. Had the place names already been named as they are in the linked articles, I (and I assume many others) would not have been confused in the first place. How about the names in the box match the linked article names? Seems simple enough. 2601:180:103:6270:C003:4A19:8D24:D590 (talk) 06:46, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Just stop this, obviously they are not linked to the articles of present-day countries, but the contemporary ones, etc.(KIENGIR (talk) 09:33, 31 January 2021 (UTC))

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:02, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 February 2021

Change this anthem file with an old recording, rather than modern U.S. Navy Band version, because the anthem of Nazi Germany has only one stanza from Deutschlandlied and Horst-Wessel-Lied. 2001:4452:4AE:8A00:3C95:88E4:3568:4F91 (talk) 11:28, 6 February 2021 (UTC) File:Deutschlandlied (first stanza).oga

Done. I absolutely agree, only the first stanza was used as the co-official anthem of the Reich, and it is the reason why it's censored in this modern day and age. PyroFloe (talk) 04:19, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree this version is much more appropriate. My one complaint is that this file doesn't have the translated English subtitles pop up when playing. Is it possible to add those? Rreagan007 (talk) 01:26, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Recent edits

Yes,

we discussed this and you seem to understand it. PyroFloe made many good faith, but erroneus and sloppy edits at several articles. Even by your argumentations small-f does not define the state as the sloppy edits would describe, it was a National Socialist State, and the Nazi is enough defining, this is not a case study of the relations of Nazism and Fascism. Moreover, this paremeter is a government type parameter, and a fascist state is not a government, etc. I suggest you think twice and carefully listen arguments.(KIENGIR (talk) 19:55, 14 February 2021 (UTC))

Nazism is a form of fascism. Please stop removing the description from the article against the consensus of other editors. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:57, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Excuse me, some relation between them does not mean them equal, not even by in a terminological way. I don't know what consensus you are talking about, I was reverting a bold edit, so the opposite is true about what you are saying.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:02, 14 February 2021 (UTC))

I'm saying that several editors have undone your removal of "fascist", and that constitutes a working de facto consensus, if not a formal one. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:17, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Please stop misleading edit logs, you are edit warring, I just restored the status quo. No, one editor reverted, but after she understood my argumentation, so your deduction fails. Please revert yourself.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:21, 14 February 2021 (UTC))

No, I will not, considering that you've now reverted three editors. Just because you consider the original edit to be BOLD doesn't means you can discount your revert. Per WP:BRD, a revert of a bold edit is supposed to be followed by a discussion, something which you only did after two other editors reverted your revert.

Please note that the article has been categorized in "Fascist states" since 2016, and Diannaa herself added a reference to the NSDAP being a "fascist party" in 2019, so the add of "Fascist" to the infobox was not in any respect a bold edit.

I do not want to report you for edit warring, but I will if you give me no choice by continuing to revert. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:34, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Please stop repeatedly mischarachterizing the issue. Now after you realized you did a mistake and arguing differently. I reverted a legitimate way the first editor, as a bold addition (yes it was bold, since it was not there), after Diannna asked me about something, I clarified, she understood (an administrator). After you did what you did, despite I entered in the talk page. What you do is clearly, against wikietiquette, since you are an experienced editor, as me and we know what is the protocoll, BRD, status quo ante, etc. So your reference to the earlier is boomerang. Hence, any report you would make, would be a failure since requirements would not meet, but may have an opposite outcome. I think you should calm down and in the future follow the etiquette with a cold head, as our relation always had been professional and were based on mutual respect.

The Fascist state category is just as enough to resolve this issue, this category is anyway sloppy creation, used at many instances erronouesly, it's a broad concept umbrella. However I could as well recommend you the German article on NS-Staat, which as well clearly describe if even later it has been called "fascistic", or in the Communism everything has been labelled as Fascist, indeed the state was an unprecedented Nazi state, uncomparable with any other in his kind, a new model, and Nazism is well defining, if someone seeks connection/similaritiers to fascism, it may be substracted in other articles. As well, a government type as I explained is semantically different issue. Nazi Germany was a National Socialist state, not a Fascist state, the relation of degree of the ideologies are not to be confused with something else, hence no consensus for this addition.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:54, 14 February 2021 (UTC))

I've changed nothing, and I made no mistake. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:18, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Where and when did your discussion with Diannaa take place? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:20, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

There was no discussion. He likely assumed I agreed when I chose to not engage in an edit war over this. The truth is, I think the description of Nazi Germany as a fascist state is an apt one, and it should remain in the infobox.— Diannaa (talk) 23:30, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

That's fine, so we have a formal working consensus. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:58, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree it should remain, even though Nazism had other aspects to it, beyond fascism. Kierzek (talk) 01:16, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Nazi Germany was a fascist totalitarian dictatorship. Fascist is one of its most important distinctions, since the Nazi state exemplified the authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization that constitutes the term. Moreover, much of the Nazi organization's early ideals and practices (as we all know) mimicked the Fascist Party under Mussolini. That being said, the Oxford Thesaurus of the English language itself lists the following words as synonymous with fascism: AUTHORITARIANISM, totalitarianism, dictatorship, despotism, autocracy, absolute rule, Nazism, rightism, militarism; nationalism, xenophobia, racism, anti-Semitism, chauvinism, jingoism, isolationism; neo-fascism, neo-Nazism; corporativism, corporatism--Obenritter (talk) 02:14, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Beyond my ken, you did. This the status quo ([1]), revision, which is not equal with the edit you performed. With Dianna we just interacted in edit logs so far, she is a nice editor, however not necessarily an expert in these areas, as well we met in similar topics where amendments had to made for accuracy, similarly to you or other editors. Kierzek, you have the point, but you should drop the emotional issue and remain professional. Obernritter, terminologically as well this is not a valid designation. Just because they share some charachteristic, it does not mean we just collect some variables, group them and if they share a few or more with other considered elements of an ideology, then we add the as genuine, it's quite synth or or-ish. The government type parameter already contains Nazi piped with Nazism, and that's enough defining, in that article the reader could read the relations of fascism. The rest I already said, unfortunately many times Anglo-Saxons do not really understand appropriately many akin things in the topic area (even outside), they just throw to everything as fascism, believeing they "justify" something. I am very sorry the the result of new, sloppy bold edit of PyroFloe caused this mess (which most of the articles have been reverted wholly of partially because of it's mistakes), however much more sorry about the lack of professionalism here, hence I have to uphold everything I said.(KIENGIR (talk) 06:42, 15 February 2021 (UTC))

• Keep the "fascist state" in the infobox. Applicable and useful to the reader. --K.e.coffman (talk) 06:46, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

We should inform the reader adequately and accurately, not just based on solely what it may be probably understood. Appropriate terminology should not be a subject of a community vote, but professionality.(KIENGIR (talk) 07:06, 15 February 2021 (UTC))

NAZISM IS NOT FASCISM, and FASCISM IS NOT NAZISM, this article directly goes against the mainstream consensus of political scientists

− The real, specialized experts like the political theorists political scientists make sharp distinction between nazism and fascism. (The two term was arbitrary lumped together from 1945 to the 1960s. The Soviet Union and Stalin himself were the main driving fore in this well designed confusion and misleading idea. Fascism had no ethnic nationalist neither any racist concepts, it based only around the greatness of state and its citizens regardless the ethnic background of the citizens. For a fascist everybody belong to the nation who and whose ancestors were born on the territory of the state, regardless their ethnic background. It based on IUS SOLI. Nazi ideas rotated around ethnic nationalism and ancestry , the ethnic origin of the people (IUS SANGUINIS). While facism can be (and used to be) anti-racist (like Mussolini), nazism is a clearly racist ideology (like Hitler). No wonder that Jews were overrepresented in Italian fascism, especially in its early period.

− In this video, the huge diferences in economic societal level are well explained : https://youtube.com/qdY_IMZH2Ko

--Creator Edition (talk) 07:14, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

YouTube videos are not reliable sources. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:59, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Really? Thank you that you shared that "new" and "great" knowledge with me, despite maybe it is considered news only for little teenagers. The video is made to educate people with lot of original quotes. On Google Books you can find this quotes in thousand results, and you can use them as references in the article. --Creator Edition (talk) 10:16, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Talkpages of the Wiki articles is OFFICIALLY CALLED AS "FORUM"

Dear Marek! You confused the Wiki articles,with the talkpages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_publisher_of_original_thought See POINT 4: QUORTE: <quote>Discussion forums. Please try to stay on the task of creating an encyclopedia. You can chat with people about Wikipedia-related topics on their user talk pages, and should resolve problems with articles on the relevant talk pages, but please do not take discussion into articles. In addition, bear in mind that article talk pages exist solely to discuss how to improve articles; they are not for general discussion about the subject of the article, nor are they a help desk for obtaining instructions or technical assistance. Material unsuitable for talk pages may be subject to removal per the talk page guidelines. If you wish to ask a specific question on a topic, Wikipedia has a Reference desk; questions should be asked there rather than on talk pages.</quote> --Creator Edition (talk) 09:36, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

And I will explain in the article with references that NAzis always looked down on fasism, and denied any ideological relationship with it.--Creator Edition (talk) 09:47, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

"The nazi political philosophy looked down on the fascist ideology since the very beginnings, thinking that fascism is inferior in every aspect with a comparison with their national socialist ideas."

Title The Origins of Totalitarianism Volume 244. / Harvest book Author Hannah Arendt Edition reprint Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1973 ISBN 0547543158, 9780547543154

PAGE: 309

LINK: [2]